"But nobody knew exactly how much they retained of themselves: whether they knew themselves as a particular someone, or the someone they once were. It was impossible to know. In the view of these researchers, covertly conscious patients occupied a phenomenological gray space that was inaccessible to scientific probing and even to the human imagination. But some researchers believed that at least some of the patients were largely intellectually intact.... Tabitha learned that once a patient was diagnosed as 'vegetative' and then admitted into a nursing home, it was almost impossible for family members to get a second opinion and a new diagnosis and then, maybe, though only maybe, a new insurance-company authorization and entry into a rehabilitation program. Instead, when a family member, sitting at the bedside, reported the early flickerings of consciousness in a loved one, she was usually dismissed as seeing what she wished to see...."
From "Vegetative Patients May Be More Aware Than We Knew/New research is upending what we thought about the consciousness of patients, leaving families with agonizing choices" (NYT)(gift link, because there's a lot more material at the link, very well presented, including much about the Terri Schiavo case, the recent research about covertly conscious patients, and the vigilance of one wife at her husband's bedside).

41 ટિપ્પણીઓ:
One, by Metallica
Fed through the tube that sticks in me
Just like a wartime novelty
Tied to machines that make me be
Cut this life off from me
Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please God, wake me
Now the world is gone, I'm just one
Oh, God, help me
Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh, please, God, help me
Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see, absolute horror
I cannot live, I cannot die
Trapped in myself, body, my holding cell
Landmine has taken my sight
Taken my speech, taken my hearing
Taken my arms, taken my legs
Taken my soul, left me with life in hell
The flip side: the breakthroughs described by Oliver Sachs in Awakenings have not been replicable.
From Wikipedia:
According to a December 2025 article in the New Yorker, the book was "met with silence or skepticism by other neurologists", and Sacks' findings could not be replicated. Sacks wrote in his private journal that some details of the book were “pure fabrications.” Lawrence Weschler, who was preparing a biography of Sacks, visited the patients described in the book and found "a lot of people shitting in their pants, drooling.
Amazing that it's been over 20 years since the judicial murder of Terri Schaivo and she is still relevant. It still seems fresh.
But have any lessons been learned?
Sacks. Typo day here.
reported the early flickerings of consciousness in a loved one, she was usually dismissed as seeing what she wished to see....
The media and Joe Biden.
Six weeks and forward-looking life in nervous system activity and consciousness expressed or in personal privacy.
What a nightmare. Know two people who have been in a weeks long coma and each was fully aware and unable to communicate.
Both recovered.
Baby Lives Matter
As I read this, I thought to myself 'so it turns out the NYT is capable of decent journalism, when they feel like it', but as I read further I was struck at how much time they spent on the euthanasia coaxing. Or coaching.
And I was also struck that they made absolutely no mention of the progress made with Elon Musk's Neuralink. Now, this has only been trialed with quadriplegics so far, admittedly, but with its success I would have thought it would at least rate a mention.
Heartbreaking situation, and your moral certainty does not help. Whether the outcome in the Terri Schaivo was correct or not, calling it murder debases the meaning of murder. And n.n.'s comments are as helpful as they always are, which is to say not. Do you really think about abortion 24/7? Have you considered commenting in straightforward, clear English prose? Has it occurred to you that those of us getting older, and with older family members, may not appreciate your snide crap in this particular post?
I know I would consider it a form of Hell to be conscious but unable to move or communicate in any fashion. I would also not want my family to be tied to my bedside for more than a few months in a hope that I might recover enough to live an actual life. I think if it is ever possible to communicate with such people, they will tell us to put them out of their misery.
Brings into question, what is consciousness and does it exist beyond the body? Are we on the verge of empirically proving that the soul does exist?
Medical problems can sometimes veer off very quickly into dark, swampy, unnavigable moral terrain, putting the people around the patient into agonizing situations. It really is incumbent on the individual to think through what they would want, and make it clear in an Advance Directive. They're not hard to do, but just thinking about your own mortality can be difficult, a barrier to doing it - until you consider how much harder it can be for your loved ones, without it.
The definition of 'concious' has long been debated. A complex brain has many subsystems, and these can be functionally independent. For example, sleeping people have no trouble breathing and maintaining a heart beat. A sleeping brain goes into rest and regeneration mode, but a lot of stuff stays active.
The core ethical question is always about self-awareness. Those who experience strokes often cannot speak -- that part of the brain can dissolve with blood leakage and never be rebuilt. Similarly, if the integrative, "consciousness causing," parts of the brain stop working or get destroyed...vegetative states are akin to sleep or less than sleep.
The problem with brain damaged patients is that each injury is unique and it's tough or impossible to generalize. Those with damage to the same brain areas may 'resemble' others with similar damage, but a tiny bit of change can mean a world of difference.
"The Diving Bell and the......" . I guess Butterfly doesn't quite apply.
I can’t read things in this subject area without remembering the Monty Python “Bring out your dead” scene. Hospitals have compassion until they don’t. And organ donation absolutely creates a conflict of interest.
The threshold of sensory and selfie-awareness are articles of faith, an objective perceived through personal prejudice.
See Victoria Arlen:
"Victoria quickly lost the ability to speak, eat, walk, and move. She slipped into a vegetative state from which recovery was thought unlikely. Arlen spent nearly four years "locked" inside her own body, completely aware of what was going on, just unable to move or communicate. Doctors believed there was little hope of survival, and recovery was unlikely.[6]
In 2010, at age 15, after almost four years, a new medication eased the seizures and Arlen began to communicate."
She made a remarkable recovery.
“I know I would consider it a form of Hell to be conscious but unable to move or communicate in any fashion. I would also not want my family to be tied to my bedside for more than a few months in a hope that I might recover enough to live an actual life. I think if it is ever possible to communicate with such people, they will tell us to put them out of their misery.”
Speak for yourself and have it put in writing.
But to assume that other people who can’t speak for themselves want what you want . . .
The older I get the more I want to tattoo on my forehead - “Don’t kill me, you fuckers”
And yes Terri Schiavo was murdered.
Is a vegetative state halfway between animal and mineral states? When my mom was dying from an aortic aneurysm rupture repaired way too late, the nurses claimed that she was a vegetable.
So I asked her questions and she responded with eye blinks. We were able to say goodbye. However, it was horrifying that she was still conscious. It was hard to tell because she was on paralytics.
"Whether the outcome in the Terri Schaivo was correct or not, calling it murder debases the meaning of murder."
Sounds like murder to me. Here's a definition of murder from the Law Shelf:
The legal definition of murder is “the unlawful taking of the life of another human being, with malice aforethought.” Malice aforethought is a legal term of art meaning that the person acted with a “reckless indifference to an unjustifiable high risk to human life” or had a premeditated intent to kill.
Cutting off someone's nutrition and hydration until she expires evidences quite a degree of premeditation. There was nothing wrong physically with Terri Schiavo. She had survived for years in that "hospice" without any medical attention. Until some people wanted her dead.
I knew a gentleman in the Caribbean that came down with one of the fevers that run through there, I think it was dengue. He was in his early 70s then, still working because he loved the social contact, and liked selling his products and services.
He went into a coma, and after about a month, went completely brain dead. No activity at all, that they could tell. His family insisted on life support, and after a few more weeks, he awoke to everyone's profound surprise. Especially the medical professionals. He returned to work a couple of months later. It still amazes me. He was profoundly Catholic, if that matters (it certainly did to him).
Magilla,
Refusing to call it murder trivializes what was done to Schaivo.
Gorilla, bravo, good comment.
And they talk about Biden's diminished capacity.
This commenter is like the Biden of the blog.
Aggie, if he was “brain dead” he would not have recovered.
@rrsafety: I was just thinking a minute ago, I actually misremembered a part of that episode, but it wasn't the 'brain dead' part - once they got the 'brain dead' finding, his family after about a week of agonizing, decided to take him off life support, and he stubbornly kept breathing and later woke up and recovered.
I can't tell you the explanation, whether it's due to misdiagnosis, the limitations of second-world, limited health care, poor equipment, or what. I can only say that it was locally thought of as a miracle and a truly astounding recovery.
Gemini AI says:
Diagnosing a vegetative state (now often termed Unresponsive Wakefulness Syndrome or UWS) is challenging, with studies suggesting a high misdiagnosis rate of roughly 30% to 40%. Patients are often wrongly diagnosed as vegetative when they are actually in a minimally conscious state (MCS), with errors often due to missed subtle signs of awareness or fluctuating consciousness levels.
PubMed Central (PMC) (.gov)
PubMed Central (PMC) (.gov)
+3
That's powerful. Thanks for the gift link.
The dietary supplement MSM (a sulphur compound) is discussed for bodily detox and may help the cells purge metals, etc. I've read anecdotes of elderly people who were unable to move or speak regain physical function with MSM treatments.
I personally suspect that vitamin, mineral, and neurotransmitter deficiences account for some late-life physical limitations (e.g., even multivitamin supplements have "Age 50+" versions with higher dosages). I won't use the words "coma" or "catatonia" for these states because those have specific meanings.
But, check out MSM.
One of many sources:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/msm-supplements
Here, as in everything else, one size does not fit all. God willing, none of us will ever be put in the position of having to decide whether to pull the plug or disconnect the tube on someone we love.
@n.n, Your comments are always appreciated. Thx
> Your comments are always appreciated
Oh good grief. Make yourself a spinner with a dozen of n.n.'s stock phrases, and then when you are feeling the lack just spin the needle two or three times. Won't be any less relevant than n.n.'s actual output here, and you will be sparing the rest of us.
#LoveTrumpsHate
#HateTrumpsLove
#HateLovesAbortion
quod erat demonstrandum
Eva Marie:
Thank you. I was once verbose, but now am succinct. There is rarely anything in the news not already published in color or tenor, so why not capture the hue and mood, right? It has an analgesic effect. Good day, ma'am.
These situations are so horrific to contemplate. Imagine being aware, yet not being able to communicate. And they just let you die. Horrible.
On this topic I recommend “Into the Gray Zone: A Neuroscientist Explores the Border Between Life and Death” by Adrian Owen. Fascinating and horrifying.
"There is rarely anything in the news not already published in color or tenor": nihil sub sole novum and so forth, from the beginning of Ecclesiastes. I will admit that I generally only skim n.n.'s comments but appreciate that he? she? makes them. I don't read here every day anymore but there are several other regular commenters who (as it seems to me) aren't any less repetitive or gnomic.
I am pro-n.n.
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