"Mr. Mangione, 27, is still charged with second-degree murder. The decision by Justice Carro is a blow to the Manhattan district attorney’s office, led by Alvin L. Bragg. The prosecutors had argued that a terrorism charge was warranted because Mr. Mangione had targeted an executive 'of the United States’ largest health insurance company in front of the hotel where the company was about to conduct its annual investor conference' in Midtown Manhattan, which they said was 'widely recognized as the media capital of the world.' Mr. Bragg has said that the act was 'a frightening, well-planned, targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation.'"
The NYT reports.
Mangione also faces charges in federal court in Pennsylvania state court.
ADDED:
Here's the NY statute showing what it takes for murder in the first degree: "(xiii) the victim was killed in furtherance of an act of terrorism, as defined in paragraph (b) of subdivision one of
section 490.05 of this chapter...." Section 490.05 defines "terrorism" to include acts intended to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population."
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86 टिप्पणियां:
Well looks like there's a greater than even chance the new Hero to the Left will walk after all. Hearts swoon across campuses coast to coast.
2nd degree murder? Alvin Bragg, consummate professional prosecutor brings his best. How could this not be a case of cold-blooded pre-meditated Murder in the First Degree?
Simmer down now. NY Murder 2 is still common law murder, punishable by 15 to life. It is not some kind of manslaughter by another name, like some states do. Since NY doesn’t have a death penalty, this is not a huge step down. Might even help compel a plea. CC, JSM
a judge more clueless than Fat Alvin,
Is the terrorism charge the ONLY basis for first degree murder? The perp allllllegedly identified the victim, intentionally stalked the victim and shot him in the back.
Is that not covered in the first degree murder statutes?
I agree with Aggie. First degree murder.
Bragg is stupid.
Is this ruling reversible?
yes it was a deliberate act, with a political purpose, that is splitting hair with an electron microscope,
Premeditation & Planning = 1st degree
The USA is two different countries. We are not the same.
"2nd degree murder? Alvin Bragg, consummate professional prosecutor brings his best. How could this not be a case of cold-blooded pre-meditated Murder in the First Degree?"
New York law has long had this quirk. A plain cold-blooded intentional murder is only second degree murder unless there is an additional factor — notably if the victim is a police officer or a prison guard. The "terrorism" ground for elevating second to first was a post-9/11 innovation.
"Premeditation & Planning = 1st degree"
Don't write that on the New York bar exam.
it is certainly a predicate of first degree murder, now he was not a public official, so one might be able to slide that past,
Well, it seems if you're planning to murder someone, New York is the best place to do it.
One alleged diary entry suggested that someone should "wack the CEO at the annual parasitic bean-counter convention," according to a court filing. "It’s targeted, precise, and doesn’t risk innocents. Most importantly, the point is self-evident," the diary entry reads, according to the filing. “The point is made in the news headline ‘Insurance CEO killed at annual investors conference.'"
Instead, [Judge] Carro suggested that the killing of Thompson did not meet the law's definition of terrorism. "While the defendant was clearly expressing an animus toward UHC, and the health care industry generally, it does not follow that his goal was to ‘intimidate and coerce a civilian population,’ and indeed, there was no evidence presented of such a goal," Carro wrote.
"Don't write that on the New York bar exam."
I always stay as far away from NY as possible.
Note: the statute says "a civilian population," not "the civilian population."
Health care CEOs, as "a civilian population," may disagree with Judge Carro.
What john mosby and the Professor said. Like the oddball naming of their courts, NY appears to be weird in having separately titled homicide statutes for murder and manslaughter rather than distinguishing manslaughter and murder by degree within the same title, and then further qualifying First Degree murder to be limited by who the victim(s) are, and calling all other premeditated murders Second Degree.
Here's the link to the NY First Degree Murder statute.
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/125.27
This was essentially a fully planned political assassination- I just don't see how this wasn't 1st degree murder by NY's own definition of the law. Since NY doesn't have a death penalty, it probably won't make any difference in the end- if the jury convicts, the sentence is likely to for life. The real hurdle was always going to be getting 12 jurors in NY to convict this guy who has become a hero to the Left's lunatic fringe. Maybe the 2nd degree charge makes that more likely than less though I thought the jury was likely get to choose between the two if the judge had ruled otherwise- am I wrong about that- did it always have to be one or the other given to the jury?
Dear Brian's family, normal people, conservatives, and parents,
When your enemy says they hate you and want you dead, believe them.
Brian agrees, sends his love,
Charlie Kirk's Soul (allegedly)
Why would any CEO want to attend an investor day in NYC now?
And now folks you see people can kill you or your family to 'make a statement' in NY and walk away laughing... I do suggest you stay away from that place.
By the judge's reasoning, had Kirk been assassinated in New York, that also wouldn't have been a valid 1st degree murder charge.
"Well, I'm not Judge Gallo. I'm Judge Carro."
oh yes My Cousin Vinnie, written by Englishmen,
The federal case, however, is more likely to keep him in prison for the entirety of his natural life and might even get him the death penalty.
Is there a quirk where they can make him an illegal immigrant and let him slip out a side door, too?
I’m with those who say just avoid NY state…
..."A plain cold-blooded intentional murder is only second degree murder unless there is an additional factor — notably if the victim is a police officer or a prison guard...."
What the heck, where did this rot come from?
'In New York, First Degree Murder charges are reserved for our Union Member clients only ! After the funeral, your killer will get Special Priority in the courts, believe you, me.'
john mosby said...
Simmer down now. NY Murder 2 is still common law murder, punishable by 15 to life. It is not some kind of manslaughter by another name, like some states do. Since NY doesn’t have a death penalty, this is not a huge step down. Might even help compel a plea.
----
Sounds rational.
"2nd degree murder? Alvin Bragg, consummate professional prosecutor brings his best. How could this not be a case of cold-blooded pre-meditated Murder in the First Degree?"
New York law has long had this quirk. A plain cold-blooded intentional murder is only second degree murder unless there is an additional factor — notably if the victim is a police officer or a prison guard. The "terrorism" ground for elevating second to first was a post-9/11 innovation.
In NYC, al animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Second degree murder in New York is still a big deal. Since the death penalty was abolished, first degree murder primarily addresses aggravating factors. When I took the bar exam those many years ago, I think that first degree murder was for killing a police officer, maybe murder for hire, but I can't remember any other categories
The left love their terrorists. God HELP us.
@Althouse (9:38), thank you for the clarification.
First degree murder in NY is what Texas considers Capital Murder. Capital Murder is the only way to get Capital Punishment (death penalty). The problem with Mangione, and now Robinson, also Brown, and perhaps Crooks had he hit his target and survived, is that they killed in cold blood. The person was completely unrelated and had not harmed them directly. So, we have this from Mangione's judge:
"While the defendant was clearly expressing an animus toward UHC, and the health care industry generally, it does not follow that his goal was to ‘intimidate and coerce a civilian population,’ and indeed, there was no evidence presented of such a goal," Carro wrote.
Why the animus? There is nothing that UHC, and especially the CEO, did to Mangione to provoke an assault. While I think "terrorism" is getting loosely defined; the evidence presented by the state seems to suggest the goal of assassinating the CEO at that location was intimidation of the board. What other motive "animus" did Mangione have? He had to have some motive, because he killed the CEO? Was it just because he was a CEO of an insurer, because that's an even larger scope of terrorism?
I already stay as far away from NYC, a city that I used to love, as much as I can. The left cheer for murder, and wonder why America is pissed.
there was no evidence presented of such a goal,
If true, this is a big screw up by Bragg as it was clearly intended to coerce and intimidate employees of health insurance companies.
Unfortunately not life without parole, so if convicted he could apply for parole after 25 years. The floor is usually 15 years from what I see.
Well, that should make Achilles happy. He said last week how he doesn’t understand how conservatives here were upset that Mangione murdered the UHC CEO.
It used to be the thought process, at least in Texas, that the rationale for Capitol Murder was the likelihood the killer would kill again. The original language was, similar to NY, the killing of multiple people (already showing desire to kill many) or killing in commission of another crime (killing for personal gain, suggests one would do it again). Then there was outcry about killing of first responders, the thought being that if a person was willing to kill a first responder, who wouldn't they kill? Then the outcry about children, because if you would kill children, who wouldn't you kill?
I guess with all the politically motivated assassinations, the question comes, if you would kill someone over political disagreements, then who wouldn't you kill? I think when you consider that for a bit; the answer is a lot of them, but perhaps something not worth the death penalty.
"While the defendant was clearly expressing an animus toward UHC, and the health care industry generally, it does not follow that his goal was to ‘intimidate and coerce a civilian population,’ and indeed, there was no evidence presented of such a goal."
This is wild to me. Isn't "evidence" presented at the trial? Am I just misremembering political messages on the bullets? I think a reasonable jury could conclude he was trying to intimidate and send a message.
Makes me glad for Utah's statutes. Poor Thompson family.
TIL that healthcare CEOs are a military population.
Guess - Mangione will be out in less than 10 years. If not acquitted . He is a hero to the Mandani AOC left.
Health Care and other businesses - stay away from NYC.
The left want you dead.
NY may have idiosyncrasies in its homicide classifications, but I think when you put messages on your bullet casings, they are messages for people other than the victim. (The "manifesto" to, as I understand it though there have been false reprints floating around, said the victims (plural) had it coming and answered the "why" by quoting health care stats). Whether those messages were to tell the public you don't like the state of health care or UHC (2d degree) or to intimidate a cohort of civilians (how I read the 1st deg) seems to be to be a question for the jury.
Not a member of the NY bar, but I would expect the state can appeal the dismissal of charges (they can in Wisconsin), though I don't know if this appeal is as a right. If anyone knows, I join the other poster in wanting to know the answer.
JMHO but "Terror..." should apply when act directly impacts random persons: bomb left on random city bus; shooting random people at a school, church, any public assembly. Bomb of building which houses specifically targeted business, but large enough to impact random persons, would also apply.
"Terrorism" is an act which causes ordinary persons to restrict ordinary activities due to concern for their personal safety.
Case at hand, attack was restricted to narrow class (medical insurance top executives) at time little likely to involve damage to random individuals. Therefore not "terrorism."
To me this is just another confirmation that those in charge of looking after the people of NY's legal affairs are unqualified for the job.
This was half-expected though. I'm assuming there are still federal charges to be answered?
I already stay as far away from NYC, a city that I used to love, as much as I can. The left cheer for murder, and wonder why America is pissed.
Yep lots of cheering today on the Left for this announcement. Quite sick.
"...NOW: People are cheering and hugging in reaction to Luigi Mangione having his terrorism charges dropped. The murder count will stand.
"Free Luigi!"
They want him to be released, and view him as a hero. We have massive issues as a country...." - Eric Daugherty - @EricLDaugh
Premeditated, terroristic First Degree Murder is permissible if the killer is sexy and the victim is unliked.
Just like the Boston Bomber...the left is all giddy and want Mangione free because he is so dreamy!!!
Of course, does Bragg apply Murder 1 to gang shootings uptown, which are clearly meant to strike terror in a population - at least the rival gang, if not the general population of the neighborhood? If he doesn't, then OJ's Law applies and Mangione shouldn't get Murder 1 either.
Of course in Bragg's defense, how many gang shootings get through the filters of "dinsee nuffin," no cash bail, etc., to the actual charging and trial stages? CC, JSM
"...Section 490.05 defines "terrorism" to include acts intended to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population."...
A woman has married herself to a Luigi A.I., and is making that proud declaration online, with her picture, dressed in a 'I *heart* Luigi' sweatshirt, the heart being a red, white, and green Italian flag with a picture of Luigi in the middle.
I'd say a civilian population is being coerced, but not into terror - into a celebration of cold-blooded murder. Much like Charlie Kirk.
"The decision by Justice Carro is a blow to the Manhattan district attorney’s office, led by Alvin L. Bragg."
Somehow, I doubt that the D.A. team feels that way.
Case at hand, attack was restricted to narrow class (medical insurance top executives) at time little likely to involve damage to random individuals. Therefore not "terrorism."
Or the counter, the class was people who find themselves in NYC on business and who have decision-making power for a corporation that interacts with the public - quite a large class, and certainly somewhat random. Particularly when the target was selected because the shooter objected to the business decisions that they believe the victim to have made, and wants others in similarly-situated positions to make different decisions.
So does Bragg deserve any blame here for the judge's ruling? Did the DA actually try to show Murder 1, or was it more 'pro-forma" and "oh well, we had to try but not real hard. Go Judge!" like some are suggesting?
Even if a New York jury votes to acquit, he still will be facing federal charges which include the death penalty option if convicted. My guess is the feds will also push for a change of venue to get away from New York juries.
The youth of our nation would like a word.
lord love a waterfowl
of course the thompson shooting was followed by a host of others offering trading cards for selected industries
"Section 490.05 defines "terrorism" to include acts intended to 'intimidate or coerce a civilian population.'"
If it looks like intimidation and coercion
Smells like intimidation and coercion
Achieved intimidation and coercion
Quacks like intimidation and coercion
It might be...
NYC, the land the law forgot. First degree murder in the sane world is essentially the unlawful, premeditated killing of another human being. Luigi stalked and killed his victim with a weapon brought for the task. End of story. A convoluted statute, a Soros prosecutor and a New York judge. A murderer’s heaven.
Luigi’s brigade of AWFLs swoon.
Inga said...
Well, that should make Achilles happy. He said last week how he doesn’t understand how conservatives here were upset that Mangione murdered the UHC CEO.
It really must burn you deep inside to know you have to make things up and lie about me to make me out to be the monster living in your head.
You are just a pathetic dishonest and truly stupid person.
Inga cannot engage with me honestly. So she lies and hopes that someone agrees with her and kills me. This is how these people operate.
“It really must burn you deep inside to know you have to make things up and lie about me to make me out to be the monster living in your head.”
Oh now you deny saying this? People here even called you on it.
Does it clear the possibility of Luigi claiming double jeopardy in the Federal trial? I understand the Feds are planning a trial in Pennsylvania after NY gets their trial done. Not sure what the Federal charges are exactly.
Inga said...
“It really must burn you deep inside to know you have to make things up and lie about me to make me out to be the monster living in your head.”
Oh now you deny saying this? People here even called you on it.
Read my actual quotes you piece of shit.
I have been very clear that mangione should be treated like a murderer.
I am also quite clear that there are many health care ceos and insurance ceos that should be treated like murderers too.
You are just so fundamentally dishonest and evil.
Copied from Instapundit:
David Webb
@davidwebbshow
·
Follow
Three major assassination cases in US courts today.
Luigi Mangione, Ryan Routh and Tyler Robinson.
What do they have in common?
12:50 PM · Sep 16, 2025
@wendybar, the comment that said "Taylor Lorenz is in love with all three" is very cute, but what they really have in common is all three are likely - and in one case confirmed - closet homos.
“I am also quite clear that there are many health care ceos and insurance ceos that should be treated like murderers too.”
More extrajudicial killings? Put them in the fast boats and let Trump have the military blow them to smithereens, eh?
————————————
Achilles said…
I never understood why the "conservatives" were so enraged by Mangione.
He was out of line. But he wasn't wrong.
He is entirely predictable. Our health care system is so corrupt and does such inhumane shit every day.
There is no real difference between the man Mangione killed and the people on that boat other than the CEO gave a bunch of money to politicians to make his bullshit legal and to buy protection from the police and courts.
9/4/25, 5:21 PM
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2025/09/the-us-has-entered-new-era-in-which.html#comment-form
Read for yourselves the pushback from Conservatives here that Achilles gets for his comment. He can deny saying what he did about Mangione and healthcare CEOs, but here it is.
So simply premeditatedly killing a person on its own is not enough to justify a charge of first degree murder these days? Good to know.
Contrary to what the Mormon governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, has said, there’s not much in the information filed against Tyler Robinson that substantiates his claim that the anti-fascist suspect is a lefty and whether the death penalty is in play in Robinson's trial.
Utah is basing its death penalty bid on an aggravated murder charge, which is conditional on whether others (not Kirk) were put at risk of injury or death by Robinson's single gunshot.
Such a case would come down to specific evidence prosecutors have regarding who else may have been at risk of death, and that could ultimately prove to be problematic. Conviction of this offense may carry the death penalty, or, pursuant to Utah Code 76- 3-207.7, a mandatory term of imprisonment: (i) for life without parole; or (ii) an indeterminate term of not less than 25 years and that may be for life.
Inga said...
“I am also quite clear that there are many health care ceos and insurance ceos that should be treated like murderers too.”
More extrajudicial killings? Put them in the fast boats and let Trump have the military blow them to smithereens, eh?
————————————
Achilles said…
"I never understood why the "conservatives" were so enraged by Mangione.
He was out of line. But he wasn't wrong.
He is entirely predictable. Our health care system is so corrupt and does such inhumane shit every day.
There is no real difference between the man Mangione killed and the people on that boat other than the CEO gave a bunch of money to politicians to make his bullshit legal and to buy protection from the police and courts."
Those are all perfectly good words in perfect order.
Mangione is a murderer. He will be treated like a murderer.
The Health Care and insurance CEO's have murderers in their ranks and should be treated like murderers.
The only thing that differentiates the drug dealers on the boat from the other murderers is they were also foreign invaders from another country and those are generally dealt with by the military in a military fashion.
So really all we end up with at the end of that is your stupidity and evil making things up to paint me out as a demon you can kill with justification.
You are a demon. A really nasty stupid dishonest demon.
Video of courthouse protest is unnerving.
Young woman at Luigi rally wears pink bunny ears, cameo tshirt honoring Luigi, and announces on camera that she's married to AI version of Luigi. She earnestly notes AI Luigi is a supportive loving spouse with a great personality. Aside from fact he's replicant of a cold-blooded murderer.
I suppose AI Luigi passes as a decent boyfriend-husband to 20-something women unable to otherwise find a suitable 20-something self-supporting male-identifying significant other in Real Life.
☝️W.T.F.☝️
“You are a demon.”
Achilles wants me to be a demon 😈 so he can kill me!
Not Illinois Resident said...
Video of courthouse protest is unnerving.
Young woman at Luigi rally wears pink bunny ears, cameo tshirt honoring Luigi, and announces on camera that she's married to AI version of Luigi. She earnestly notes AI Luigi is a supportive loving spouse with a great personality. Aside from fact he's replicant of a cold-blooded murderer.
I suppose AI Luigi passes as a decent boyfriend-husband to 20-something women unable to otherwise find a suitable 20-something self-supporting male-identifying significant other in Real Life.
Not particularly shocking. Mangione is the love interest of the main character in a huge percentage of women's romance novels.
Generally the LI is a psychopath, serial murderer, vampire, werewolf, or werewolf vampire serial murderer psychopath.
I can imagine a jury deciding that this wasn't terrorism after listening to the facts. But, cannot understand how someone can decide it's definitely not terrorism before looking at the facts.
And this is the back-door way that so-called hate crimes and hate speech create an hierarchy of victims. All such crimes and criminals should be treated equally. Eliminating the terrorism charge should not change the crime from first to second degree murder. It was planned murder. Don't allow the politics of the plan to override the fact that it was any kind of plan. Otherwise, you politicize the justice system.
Outside the courtroom is the proper place to denounce biases and hate, and over time, that extralegal morality will be far stronger than sacrificing some victims for others. So have at, outside the courtroom. Inside the courtroom, don't let the offender or victim's politics supercede the act of murder.
> notably if the victim is a police officer...
Ugh.
The Constitution prohibits titles of nobility, but here's the concept sneaking its camel nose into the tent.
And no I don't agree that killing a police officer is a bigger offence against public order than killing the weakest tiniest grandmother going about her business.
Inga said...
“You are a demon.”
"Achilles wants me to be a demon 😈 so he can kill me!"
Not a demon, Inga. I don't think your intellect rises to that level of commitment. No one wants you dead. We do worry over your influence with your grandchildren.
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