August 29, 2025
"He was eight inches shorter in length than he was before he burned. That’s thermal fracture.... Not only are you riding on top of 3,000 pounds of batteries, this 'spaceship' design is a double-edged sword."
Said the plaintiff's lawyer, quoted in "Family sues Tesla after Cybertruck owner dies in 5,000-degree inferno, causing bones to disintegrate" (NY Post).
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66 comments:
Unsafe at any Speed.
We had lots of automobile fires before electric fires became a thing. Something about gasoline ...
"US fire departments responded to an estimated annual average of 215,096 vehicle fires in the United States from 2018–2022, representing 16 percent of the 1.4 million total fire incidents.
From 2018–2022, only fires in one- and two-family homes caused more estimated civilian deaths than vehicle fires. Vehicle fires were estimated to have caused 5.5 times the number of deaths caused by nonresidential structure fires and 1.6 times the number of deaths caused by apartment fires."
https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/research/nfpa-research/fire-statistical-reports/vehicle-fires
How is this any different than sitting on top of 25 gallons of explosive gasoline?
If it was 5000 degrees, exactly what were they measuring? I doubt incinerators operate at that temperature.
If you wanna be "green" and happen to die in a vehicle fire, either gasoline or burning batteries saves money relative to the cost of cremation.
"If it was 5000 degrees, exactly what were they measuring?"
Does it matter? Would they be happier if it was only 4,000 degrees?
I asked Grok at what temperature do people get creamated at and he said about 1,400 degrees to 2,000 degrees. This is enough to literally turn an entire body to ash so you'd never know how much shorter this makes a person (but I'm assuming it would be a LOT more than 8 inches.)
He was also “overserved?” Might that have played a role in him unable to get out of the car? (I’ve never been in a Tesla, so I don’t know how hard it is to find the switch or handle to manually unlock the door when the vehicle loses power).
Does it matter?
I wouldn’t think so, but if some dumb law clerk is going to introduce a measurement into the court case, then it becomes an issue on the credibility of the law clerk. This law clerk looks like an idiot to me for bringing it up.
Getting burned to death is one thing. But Burning to death at 5000 degrees is really horrible.
Reminds of people getting upset because the police shot someone 50 times. OMG 50 times. If only they'd killed him with 2 bullets.
The problem with lithium battery fires is that they are self-sustaining with no practical means to douse.
@Formerlawclerk - If I’m not mistaken, cremation doesn’t turn you into ash. It just burns away the tissue so you are just a skeleton. Then they put the skeleton into a grinder.
Good morning, everyone!
The fire that melts lead tempers steel.
@RCOCEAN II: "Getting burned to death is one thing. But Burning to death at 5000 degrees is really horrible."
Tell that to the people who were burned alive inside the ancient Greek brazen (bellowing) bull.
Being burnt to death is one of the most painful ways to go. If I had a choice of being slow roasted or quickly incinerated, the 5,000°F sounds like a better choice.
That is one scary way to describe dying in a car wreck. Which is appropriate, I suppose. Dying in a car wreck is scary.
But we’re not outlawing cars, so it’s going to happen from time to time.
..if only the truck had been driving for him, or something…
This was a DUI accident; their description of how he would have been able to survive but for the placement of the door handles is pure speculation.
His obituary said he loved cooking for family and friends
I can’t believe they wrote that.
Reading between the lines in the article, sounds like he was "overserved" to me. So smart he is Mensa level but can't find the door handle? Definitely missing puzzle pieces here.
..."a devoted husband with a “gentle spirit.....His obituary said he loved cooking for family and friends...." There's a particularly mordant sense of wit, over there at the Post. It's not the first time that electric vehicles have trapped their passengers when the electricity fails in a crash. One would think their engineers would have an easily-used mechanical fail-safe incorporated into the design. The story doesn't say whether he was alive after the crash, it just implies it.
My wife is a chemist and retired government scientist. Back when she was a graduate teaching assistant every semester she would take a tiny piece of lithium and drop it in water as part of a lab demonstration. Pretty spectacular.
The Biden administration paid companies to build EV school buses and gave incentives to school districts to replace theI diesel buses with electric. There have been EV school buses that spontaneously caught fire, but so far not while there were kids. In them. I think it would be prudent to get electric school buses off the road immediately, or the Democrats will have more dead kids thanks to their policies that they can cheer about.
Back to Michael Sheehan, his death may be tragic, but is there any evidence he was conscious after the crash? Was he conscious enough to have exited the vehicle under any circumstances? The crash may have been survivable, but what evidence is there that he actually did survive it?
And something doesn’t add up. Sheehan is described as being “MENSA level” intelligent and he bought a $100,000 truck, but he works as an RN? Seems strange.
Au contraire, BM. Mensa isn't known as Densa for nothing. The big brained high IQ are typically underachievers lacking common sense.
@Howard: If you seek employment in the corporate world: (1) avoid mentioning the ego-freak Mensa club at all costs, (2) minimize Ivy League affiliations if not working inside the Ivy League clique, and (3) never make it seems that your ancient professional history (e.g., internships, school) are the high points of your career.
I say this because a prior colleague put her internship in her everyday email signature...10+ years after the intership was complete...
she would take a tiny piece of lithium and drop it in water as part of a lab demonstration
…it’s my understanding the cells are lithium ion so electrolyte and no lithium metal? That would explain firefighters using water instead if sand and stuff they use for magnesium fires. Not my department but I’ve been told explosive nature of these car fires is due to quick thermal transfer…
" The big brained high IQ are typically underachievers"
Intelligence serves itself.
Stylish urn!
“It’s not easy bein’ green.”
Black is the new green.
Well done, sir!
This might be a good place to insert some spam about how to get eight inches longer.
I heard somebody say/Burn Tesla Burn/Cyber Inferno!/Burn Tesla Burn/Burn that mutha down....RR, JSM
As someone who in general isn't a fan of EVs and specifically thinks the Cybertruck is quite bad, I'm still going to categorize this for myself under 'lawsuits I hope will fail.'
In all seriousness, door handles, internal and external, are becoming less and less intuitive and practical every day, in the name of...what exactly? Aesthetics? Aerodynamics? Cost reduction? There should always be a simple mechanical way to get the door open from the inside, operable by a child big enough to not need a child seat. RR, JSM
Burn out the day
Burn out the night
I ain’t in no shape to put up a fight
I'm payin’ by dyin’ for havin’ a few
And I'm burnin', I'm burnin', I'm burnin' boo hoo
I'm burnin', I'm burnin', I'm burnin' boo hoo
h/t BOC
It burns, burns, burns, that ring of fire.
And when gas cars explode?? You do know ten gallons of gas makes a real good fireball... driving is dangerous.. duh.
There should always be a simple mechanical way to get the door open from the inside, operable by a child big enough to not need a child seat.
I'm suggesting one of those old-style... engineers, pipe up here... you know, where a strip of some material dissolves or burns up under a particular circumstance (such as the vehicle reaching a certain temperature) and - in my hypothetical - I'm doing so, releases a mechanical catch that pops the doors. I have been concerned about EVs that don't have enough actual mechanical operation. I've only ever been in my son's electric Audi and it seems to be a normal car that just runs on electricity, so maybe this is just a Tesla issue, making everything electrical.
But, I mean, electric car windows exist on all sorts of cars. This is why I gave all three kids one of those life hammers for Christmas a few years back - to cut the seatbelt and break a window.
What you'd do on a Cybertruck, I have no idea.
Aerodynamics?
If this is the pretext for why Tesla handles are flush with the doors, then it's akin to swimmers shaving off all their body hair. MAYBE it makes the TINIEST bit of difference for a really elite swimmer, but unless you're Sasquatch, surely it's not going to win your race for you.
Since we're talking industrial design, sort of, how about the many ways that plumbing fixtures are made? I'm thinking of the thing that switches from tub faucet to shower head. There are so many configurations. The least intuitive, I think, is the one where you have to reach into the stream of water coming out of the faucet and pull down a ring that's invisible to you, to divert the flow.
At a hotel in which we were staying with our youngest (21) last January on our way to Joshua Tree, he must have taken up the bathroom for a good ten minutes, mostly with the water running, before he gave up and poked his head out to say he couldn't figure it out.
Product liability lawsuits could kill Telsa. Thankfully, ENVX has a better - and safer - battery design.
Jamie, I think a problem with that idea is a mechanical connection that when melted pops the doors would likely break and release the doors under crash impacts. Keeping the car body intact in a crash without fire is probably a higher priority.
If his bones disintegrated in the car fire, how did they measure him to find eight inches less?
In CO - illegal drivers are killing CO drivers at an alarming rate.
All A-ok!
“Eight inches or less.”
—— Flo n’ Eddie (“200 Motels”)
On my wife's car the switch that sets the rear door lock/childproof lock is on the driver's arm rest. I frequently set it to lock without knowing by resting my arm on the .... arm rest. That traps anyone in the rear seat until they bring it to my attention and I flip the switch back. Bad design.... all springing from the government looking out for my safety....
But this "MENSA" level intellect was "over served" (no responsibility, eh), veered off road (no claim THAT was the car's fault), he apparently did not bother to learn about his vehicle from the owner's manual and could not figure out how to operate the door release.
And please tell me why (other than the unintentional humor of the "cooking" and "zombie" references) was this clap trap in a news article?:
Sheehan, who worked as a registered nurse, was remembered by loved ones as a devoted husband with a “gentle spirit.”
His obituary said he loved cooking for family and friends, was passionate about zombie movies, and lived life “authentically” and “unapologetically.”
How is the actual news changed if neighbors noted he was an ill-tempered azzhat and hated dogs?
A lot of comments above mentioned "overserved", and apparently the bar where he was "overserved" is being sued.
Not one comment, yet, about the now apparently odd concept of "personal responsibility".
He drank Deliberately. His own decision, not forced upon him by anyone. He ordered those drinks he drank, each and every one of them. And- paid for them. No one held him at gunpoint and said- "Drink this or die!" He did it, all on his own.
And he was an RN- registered nurse. Meaning he knew the effects of alcohol. Knew what would happen to his reflexed and judgement if he drank too much. And likely as an RN handled lots of patients who were there because they drank too much... Yet, he deliberately chose to do so. Not the fault of the bar or the bartender or of the presumably pretty young waitress serving him. All his fault.
And not the fault of Tesla that he ran off the road. Judging from the few pics in the article, at a high rate of speed. As in- above the speed limit. Again, a conscious choice to go that fast, albeit he was drunk at the time, drunk by his own choice and actions, and no one else's. Or maybe not conscious. Entirely possible he passed out and his foot weighed heavy on the accelerator. Not Tesla's fault in either event.
Only one saving grace for the dead alcoholic- he didn't take anyone else with him. His family should be thankful for that. I certainly am.
Keeping the car body intact in a crash without fire is probably a higher priority.
There you go doing risk trade studies. Next thing you know, you'll design a rear bumper for impacts up to 60mph. Wait until you see that lawsuit.
In a lithium ion battery the anode is made of a combination of lithium cation absorbed into graphite along with the electron. So, it isn't exactly elemental lithium at the anode, but isn't functionally all that different from elemental lithium either. When water intrudes, the effect isn't different either- hydrogen gas is generated and ignited in air and the graphite burns, too.
My research says that neither EVs nor gas vehicles are explosive and that if you are conscious and able to open the car door and get out, you are extremely unlikely to be consumed in any sort of fireball. The problem with EVS is that once they get started burning, they are hard to put out, but they don’t suddenly go into some huge flaming death trap and neither do gas vehicles. Movies showing crashes are not realistic.
The crash was in August of 2024, more than a year ago, and suit was filed in June. Why is this a story in today's NYPost?
My research says that neither EVs nor gas vehicles are explosive
Reminds me of the famous NBC "research": https://youtu.be/KtpMzGN9uWc
On the other hand:
https://youtube.com/shorts/UQg5l883zbE
Here , I hope, is the Cybertruck manual on manually opening the door from inside without power.
They can go up in flames pretty quickly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71cVhxG_v4
Overserved?
You got the guy starting fights, dancing on tables, falling down, pissing his pants.
Obviously overserved.
The other guy at end of the bar sitting quietly, talking nicely, drinking all night..How can you determine he has been overserved?
"Family sues Tesla after Cybertruck owner dies in 5,000-degree inferno“
I’d take 5000 over 500 any day. Silver lining: no cremation costs.
Lithium doesn’t explode, it just burns really hot. Gasoline, on the other hand, does explode; several times a second in an internal combustion engine. That’s what makes it go. When it explodes externally, you have a problem.
@typingtalker:
Now do stats AFTER 2022. There are many more EVs on the road now. In any event, comparing house fires to car fires is apples-to-kumquats.
What's more, a lithium battery fire that can't be put out is a helluva lot different that a gasoline-fueled car fire. Put an EV into your attached garage, and risk it burning down the whole house.
Home and auto insurers are taking note. Ditto condos and apartment buildings with underground garages. Florida actually requires condos to install EV charging stations, so that's bound to create some legal issues in the future.
thats a function of the lithium battery not the car, I'm reminded of Demolition Man, where the conveyances are powered by something called capacitance gel, in which the villain Simon Phoenix is trained how to turn it into a weapon
@Smilin' Jack: "When it explodes externally, you have a problem."
Gasoline will burn externally -- see a zillion old camp stoves -- but it's not too much of a concern for external explosions. It can be tricky to ignite at all, and doesn't work with either too little or too much vapor concentration.
how did they identify the body if it was nearly vaporized,
Rabel, from the diagrams in that Cubertruck manual, the emergency mechanical door opener is far from intuitive or even particularly visible. It’s the sort of thing that an aircraft or tank crew would drill on - plus an aircraft or tank would have the relevant parts painted orange or candy-cane stripe or something like that. The Cybertruck owner/driver might dimly remember seeing something while flipping through the manual; the guests in the vehicle, especially the back seaters, would have no bloody chance. RR, JSM
What I see at this link is that the manual release for the front doors is a wide lever, the width of both window switches, so about two inches wide, and located right ahead of them. It is right under your hand any time you open or close the windows. That seems to me to be a lot like opening any other car's door.
The manual release for the back door is not a handle. It is a loop on the end of a cable. You pull it. You get to it by removing the rear door's map pock and pulling up on a cable. I doubt I would remember a cable is in there.
https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/diy/cybertruck/en_us/GUID-65E662F0-BF69-475D-8AAB-4C70D3BFB3B8.html
My understanding of the chemistry of the battery fires is that the normal chemical process that produces electricity in the battery is exothermic, it gives off heat. If you physically heat the battery cells you speed up this chemical reaction.
In normal use the reaction releases hydrogen slowly.
Hydrogen is the fuel that is burning in a battery fire.
To sustain a fire you need a certain fuel-to-air ratio. If you have too much air compared to fuel, a the fire won't burn. Likewise if the ratio if too much fuel compared to the air, a fire won't burn.
The challenge with putting out a hydrogen fire is that it takes so little oxygen it is hard in the field to snuff the flame. Just a little bit of air is all it takes.
The recommended procedure for a fire department is to use their water to cool the battery and slow down the production of hydrogen.
Battery fire risk is being addressed. In China, in 2026, a new standard called "no fire, no explosion" goes into effect. It has a formal name and standard number. Some products have completed the required testing and others are in process. The batteries will have some kind of built-in fire suppression they don't have now.
Please correct me if I have any details wrong.
One issue with using Enovix (ENVX) batteries is that the company has never made any money. It has high short interest, too.
All their products so far are for smart phones, laptops, and portable electronics.
Did the lawyers also sue the manufacturer of the alcohol he got drunk on?
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