Said Friedrich Merz* quoted in "Germany’s Merz vows ‘independence’ from Trump’s America, warning NATO may soon be dead/Election winner likens the Trump administration to Putin’s Russia as he bids to take Europe in a new direction" (Politico).
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* Suggested sobriquet: "The Landlord."
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76 comments:
Personal responsibility is a bitter pill to swallow. Shared responsibility is a childish memory. Grow up.
Europe is so mad about the President demanding they stand on their own two feet, they're planning on standing on their own two feet.
About time! No more free riding.
It's been 80 years since WWII ended. I'd say it's way past time for the Europeans to start paying for their own defense instead of continuing to depend on American taxpayers and American soldiers to do it for them. It's not "indifference," Herr Merz, it's reality.
This finally marks the end of WW2 European pacifist piglets suckling off the USA and its military. They'll all spend more on internal weapons systems and less to support US military bases, so expect unintended consequences and less financial gain for the US than you might think.
Good. Pay for your own defense. Close the military bases. Bring the troops home to protect our borders. Kiss our asses Europe. No more getting dragged into your stupid wars.
What? We don't get to be dragged into your world wars? Canada is pissed off because we want them to help us control fentanyl and illegal migration, and Europe is mad because we don't want to be involved in turning their border disputes into world wars.
Buh bye!
The Trump administration's position on Europe is the opposite of indifference. Their position is that Europe is too weak for its own good and it needs to get stronger in order to protect themselves and the alliance better. In addition the Trump administration is very concerned that European countries are rapidly eroding their peoples civil liberties in favor of consensus compliance and other nonsense.
it is clear that the Americans, at least this part of the Americans, this administration, are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe
Rants like this are always about being cut off financially. My sister would rant like this too when mom and dad weren't paying for everything she wanted. Did Trump say we were pulling all our troops out of Germany or did he just suggest Germany pay their delinquent NATO bills? You know the ones the US has been covering while Germany absorbed its lesser half, so to speak. (I haven’t cared to notice- sniff) That unification happened a long time ago. Germany’s been happily telling everyone how much bend they’re allowed to have for quite some time. Sounds like an adult European nation to me…
Suggested sobriquet: "The Deck Chair Arranger". Merkel drove the ship right into the iceberg. If Merz were the one to save the German economy, he wouldn't have needed Vance to prompt him into it.
Correction: shared... shifted responsibility is an immature indulgence.
"Indifferent" to the fate of Europe? No. I'm very saddened. Resigned to the fate of Europe? Yes. The writing is on the wall.
What a drama queen
"...it is clear that the Americans, at least this part of the Americans, this administration, are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe."
I'm not sure how to say this gently, but I think this is a misreading. We are not indifferent. But we can't care about Europe more than many Germans or Europeans seem to care about Europe - caring in ways that matter, I mean. Caring about Europe has to mean more than caring that you can sit in peace in a cafe and talk to your friends over a cappuccino. We all care about Europe for that.
But if you want a "crumple zone" between you and Russia (and we don't blame you for that) - that zone comes at a cost, and the payers of that cost shouldn't be predominantly American taxpayers and Ukranian lives. (Particularly when you appear to be more interested in deconstructing your economy under the notion of saving the plant from carbon.)
At the end of the Cold War, we should have said to the Europeans, We protected you from Soviet invasion. Our job is done. So how can we now help you organize your own security arrangements?
Fred Merz's comments have "all the earmarks" of a US Deep State narrative intended to weaken Trump domestically.
Don't be fooled: the true intent is to affect US public opinion to perpetuate European dependence under Deep State rule at US taxpayer expense.
What Merz and the US Deep State forget, however, is that Americans have seen the episodes of "I Love Lucy" where Fred and Ricky scheme to make Lucy and Ethel jealous.
Great news. Close those bases in Germany. The Grand Mufti of Germany can deal with the Russians
It's a re-balancing of sentiments, yes, a bit passionate but not as one-sided as some might suggest. It's going to mean that the US can't be quite as obnoxious with their muscular foreign policy any more, too. It's going to be a little more difficult to, say, blow up large pipelines with such impunity, going forward. By transferring the onus of self-determination back onto Europe, we also accept that for them to get stronger, the US must relinquish a little stature too. There will be pain.
Just straightening up.
That's 3 'close italics there'
To those of you imbedding italics in your comments, please remember to also CLOSE them too. It's like leaving the toilet seat up for the rest of us to put down for you.
Also to note that Mertz' party was the election "winner" in that they took the most seats in the Bundestag. But they don't have a majority (i.e. they're not winners as we think of a winner), so he must form a coalition to become Chancellor. The party with the second most seats is afD (alternative for Deutschland), a more Trumpian party, who nearly doubled their seats from the last election. So, is Mertz, of the "Christian Democrat Union combined with the Christian Socialist Union" parties (sort of their version of the old Republican party) - is Mertz going to form the coalition with afD? No. He said absolutely not, because the right fringe of afD is deemed unacceptable. So, he will form a coalition with the left and the greens, which seems likely to be as unstable as was the last government.
To some, maybe that is a good strategy, since in the Bundestag, he will likely get the vote of most afD members anyway, on most things he wants, but will avoid the taint of allying with the far-right nationalists. But that means he'll be administering the government and sharing executive power with those on his left, but relying for votes in the Bundestag from those on his right. Sounds like Mertz will have a very fun job for the next 4-5 years.
Yes guys, when you’re done peeing put the seat down and close the lid, too. They don’t like ‘at, either…
They will hold more summits and press conferences, and when the time comes for their national legislatures to increase military spending and promote economic growth so they can be independent from that meanie Donald Trump, they'll fail. They don't have the money, or the economic environment in general, without making cuts to their welfare state and regulatory apparati that they are completely unwilling to make.
What is the impact to their energy strategy? They won’t be able to greenly energize their new defense-offense building activities. And what is the impact on their immigration policies? They can’t build an army with people who aren’t patriotic. This is a welcome and major course correction. All thanks to Trump.
"To those of you imbedding italics in your comments, please remember to also CLOSE them too."
I know the problem is that you think you've closed them but a spellcheck is turning the small i into a capital I. Look out for that.
@Althouse: "a spellcheck is turning the small i into a capital I. Look out for that."
Sometimes browser autocorrect features execute huge editing changes outside my awareness. With the rise of AI, sometimes they insert 3-4 words and say things I never thought or meant to say.
HAL from the 2001 film is among us.
"They can’t build an army ..." This was always the lie of the Ukraine war that we in the West told ourselves but that never fooled Russia. We in the West told ourselves that this was a very important war. But Russia was never fooled. Russia knows that young European men would never leave the outside cafes and nightclubs to come and fight in this "important war". Trump is just tacitly admitting to and moving beyond the West's self-deceptions.
turning the small i into a capital I
Andrea, you can't be Sirius. AI, smart-ass.
Responding to Quayle, Howard etc.:
""...it is clear that the Americans, at least this part of the Americans, this administration, are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe." I'm not sure how to say this gently, but I think this is a misreading. We are not indifferent."
Correct. If Merz says this for public consumption, to make EU more serious, OK. If he means it, that's very stupid. Of course we are not indifferent: we'd like Europe to take liberal values seriously, not exclude significant voting blocks from full partcipation, adopt sensible energy policies, and ramp up their own defense so that they deter Russia and free us to focus on China.
IOW, the Germans are still stuck on stupid. Instead of reaching out to Russia to get cheap energy, they've decided poking the Russian bear over Ukraine is their No. 1 priority. And they're upset that Trump doesn't want to join their Jihad against Putin and putting Ukraine into Nato.
The reason for NATO went away when the USSR went away. Russia is not a threat to Europe, and if Europe wants to band together and have a Euro Army and Euro Nuclear deterrent, well good for them. You need to understand that American "interdepedence" with Europe meant we footed the bill for their defense. Now, they will pay their own way.
Thanks Trump!
The German conservatives have already stated they will never form a coalition with the AFD, because reasons. "Conservative" in this case just means Status Quo enjoyers. The dumbest political position possible.
yes they have learned nothing from the merkel debacle of 1-2 million syrian newcomers,
Quayle said...
"Russia knows that young European men would never leave the outside cafes and nightclubs to come and fight in this "important war"
heck! Russia (and the World) knows that young UKRAINIAN men would never come and fight in this "important war"
The Ukraine is relying on drafting middle aged (and older) rural men to fight in this "important war".
Where have all the Young Men gone? gone into to hiding, everyone
How big are the German armed forces compared to West Germany's in 1988? They are capable of having a stronger military, the question is if they have the desire.
when will they ever learn? When will they Ever Learn?
Again, all this fuss and nonsense is over a border dispute between Ukraine and Russia, two countries that are slavic brothers and should be friends and not enemies. Its completely irrelevant to German, let alone USA, security where Russia's border with Ukraine is. And we're not any safer, with Ukraine in NATO. Quite the opposite.
The problem with poliitcal elites is they love all these Foreign policies games. I bet this German leader loves the idea of playing 3-D chess with Russia and Ukraine. And getting everyone riled up about Putin. "Giddy minds and foreign quarrels".
Nostrenigma spoke @7:45AM!
the Russian have fought six wars to take and hold ukraine before this,
the current eu head was the german defense minister, who came into office, with the Army fighting with wooden rifles, and other kabuki exercises, one of the first things they did was purge their elite ksk special forces for allegations of extremism
All that because Trump asked them to pay their fair share.
Saying that the US does not care about he fate of Europe is to admit that we are their welfare security provider - somebody else should pay for their stuff.
If America is going to step back, someone else is going to step forward. Better Europe than Russia or China, I suppose. But there were benefits to America from our leadership position, as well as costs. Europe, if it is successful, will now reap those benefits, instead of us. And it remains to be seen how much of the costs will actually be saved.
it is clear that the Americans, at least this part of the Americans, this administration, are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe.
Americans are not indifferent to the fate of Europe; we are, however, getting very tired of propping up the politicians of Europe who seem hell bent on bringing it to ruin. Of course, European leaders bringing Europe to ruin at the expense of European citizens is vastly more common than not.
they already grovel too much toward China, with their 'clean energy' obsession,
Curious whether Friedrich Merz's wife is named Ethel?
A discussion of the status of the Germany military (Bundeswher) posted 5 days ago so definitely researched and written prior to the election yesterday. It should be pretty obvious that the guy is no great admirer of Trump but he's not pulling any punches when discussing the situation, either. Though he doesn't get into details, he makes several oblique comments about the fact that the Brits, the French, and even the Italians seem to be getting a lot more bang for their defense bucks than the Germans. Brought to my mind the historical over-engineering of German WWII equipment.
One statement that jumped out at me. At the Cold War peak (I surmised), the Germany Army alone had half a million men. The Bundeswehr total including ancillary and support services and reserves is now less than 200K.
When did we ever really care about Europe? Our ancestors came here to get away from those people. But as was said before, in a somewhat different context and paraphrasing slightly, "everytime we think we're out, they pull us back in..." I'm sure it will happen again.
Remember that they mighty Russian Army, which hasn't even reached the Dnieper River in three years is such a risk to Europe that we must drag the Americans in to fight WW3 because of it!
Hitler's army ran over large countries in weeks at the beginning of WWII, and was far larger and far better armed, in terms of its opponents, than Russia's army. It's all lies. This was a project to overthrow Putin and loot a relatively thinly populated country that occupies 1/6th of the land surface of the globe, the same we Europe has been looting Africa for centuries. It's how Europe maintains its high standard of living.
Right now the UK has a plan to provide air patrols over Ukraine out of NATO bases in Poland. They want to do this because Putin drew a red line, and every time a rival draws a red line, the neocons get a little boner. In this case Putin has said that if airfields on NATO territory are used in the war, he will consider them legitimate targets. "Bingo!" say the neocons, we will get Russia to "attack NATO" say it was "unprovoked" and who will push back? We will then point to the bloody shirt of a Russian attack on Polish soil, and "presto! WW3!"
It's like that quote from WWI where the British asked the French how many British troops they would need, and the French said "Only one, and we will see to it that he is killed." You know, so that Germany would wear the odium of starting WWI, even though they were all spoiling for a war.
"But there were benefits to America from our leadership position"
It's so funny seeing purported leftists support "American primacy" or as the gentlemen of the other firm call it, "American hegemony."
How many wars have we fought for this purpose, mr Lefty, were they all justified for the "benefits"? I worry about Achilles, our poster, since we haven't heard from him in a while, but how many young American men need to die for "American primacy" so that all of the good jobs for non college educated men, the ones who fight in the military, can be shipped overseas to maximize profits for our American billionaire oligarchs?
Electing a guy named "Fred Merz" isn't going to bring Germany much respect. I can already see Trump and Merz meeting and Trump asking, "Where's Ethel? Did you bring her?"
How big are the German armed forces compared to West Germany's in 1988?
West Germany's military had about half a million men on active duty in the 70s and 80s, with reservists bringing the numbers up to around 1.3 million or more. Now the combined military is about 180,000 with an additional 80,000 reservists.
I'm not 100% certain about all the numbers. Some sources say the army's size is 63,000, others 57,000. The Navy and the Air Force aren't larger than the Army, so that leaves a lot of personnel unaccounted for.
We provoked this war at this time because we believed that Russia was weak and now was the best time. Turned out that we waited too long, and NATO was rotting from its own corruption.
More numbers that may or may not be accurate:
At the end of the Cold War, the Soviet Bloc represented 9% of the world’s population and 10.5% of its economy, measured at purchasing-power parity (PPP). The equivalent numbers for Russia and its allies (the ‘Putin Bloc’) in 2020 are 2.5% and 3.5%. If measured at market exchange rate, even before accounting for the ruble’s recent depreciation, the Putin Bloc’s share of GDP is even lower: 1.8% versus 6% for the Soviet Bloc at the end of the Cold War. The Putin Bloc’s population is about 60% lower, at 197 million, compared to 483 million in 1990 for the Soviet Bloc. This is the combined result of reduced geographical scope, and of the remaining group’s declining demographics and poor economic performance.
Maybe we shouldn't be pretending that it's still the 1980s or the 1950s anymore. Putin's Russia isn't a cuddly puppy or kitten by any means, but it's a long way from Stalin's or even Brezhnev's Soviet Union.
@Lazurus, if you follow the link I posted to the YouTube, and scroll through to about 7:45 in, you get a post about the Bundeswher numbers. They split up a little differently than some militaries.
Roughly
Army - 61K (not sure if this includes reserves but he mentions 34K in reserves)
Navy - 15K
Air Force - 27K
Cyber/Information - 14K
Joint Health Services - 20K
Joint Support Service (SKB) - 23K
That Joint Health Services head count raises my eyebrows, and makes me wonder if there are some functions included that we would consider part of the VA.
Time to put your big boy lederhosen on. The con game is over. How many American soldiers stood watch on the Fulda Gap for how many decades?
I don't think it is entirely correct to tout the presence of American soldiers in Germany as entirely our burden.
When we lived in Germany, my 12 year old son asked me how the Americans got the Germans to give us so much nice land and properties in Germany for our bases, offices, and recreational facilities. My answer was that we didn't exactly submit a request. More that we refused to vacate.
"Maybe we shouldn't be pretending that it's still the 1980s or the 1950s anymore. Putin's Russia isn't a cuddly puppy or kitten by any means, but it's a long way from Stalin's or even Brezhnev's Soviet Union."
Well, you wouldn't be any good at whipping up wars! This is all about the oil, the gas, the gold, the platinum, the diamonds, etc, etc, etc, that would fall into our hands at bargain prices should we collapse Putin's government.
Not to mention that we would then leave China without a friend and vulnerable to a blockade based in Taiwan, Japan, and the Philippines, "The world is ours!" And of course, the rulers will be as corrupts as the Biden Administration, and the wealth to be extracted from the entire globe's resources will be unimaginable.
This guy says he won’t work with AfD, the second place finisher. So he can only form a government by working with “more of the same.” His Christian Democrat predecessor, Angela Merkel, says Muslims aren’t responsible for terrorism. Germany is toast.
This election is interesting. There are 630 seats in the Bundestag. The winner of Sunday's election is Merz and his Christian Democrats and Christian Social Union*, however they only account for slightly under a third of those 630 seats and in order to govern they have to find a coalition partner that can get them to at least 316 seats. The obvious teammate is Alles fur Deutschland (AfD), which is also a right-of-center party, however Merz and his party spent this election cycle insisting that the AfD is the reincarnation of Hitler's Nazis and they would never partner with the Nazis. Too bad, because the AfD will have 152 seats, almost a quarter of the Bundestag, which is large enough to make life miserable for Merz and whoever his CDU teams with.
So if Merz and the CDU does not look to its right to form a coalition government then it has to look left, and the only party large enough to get them over 315 is the same Social Democrats (SPD) that had been leading the government and got shellacked in this election, going from 178 seats down to 120, losing about a third of their seats. Together the CDU and SPD account for 328 seats -- a majority, but not by much.
Will the German voters be happy with a center-left coalition government after voting overwhelming for right of center parties? We shall see.
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* Technically slightly different but closely intertwined -- think Minnesota's Democrat Farm Labor party as a component of the Democrats at the national level.
Putin is a very bad dude.
Trump just wants to try and end the war.
We shall see.
Tapping the shoulder of the EU and telling them to stop restricting free speech, listen to all of your people, and pay your NATO commitments is now "America has abandoned us". They must secretly lust to be Democrats, and parade around with "resist" signs.
Noted : the joke American democrat party press are back to lying about Trump. Lying liars who lie.
JIM @ 11:50.
Bingo. Lefty Whiners are the same the world over.
Big Mike 11:08
Thanks.
Trump to Europe: “Your terms are acceptable. We know it’ll take some time to rebuild your military forces from the decrepit state they’re in now, so we’ll hold off on withdrawing our forces for three years from now, unless you want us to leave sooner.”
"... it is clear that the Americans, at least this part of the Americans, this administration, are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe."
What is clear is that he and his friends want to kill as many Europeans as they can, and replace them with Third-World vermin. He's got some nerve accusing Americans of being indifferent to the fate of Europe. He needs hanging.
@Lazarus, @Christopher, it’s not just the size of the modern German military forces, it’s also the state of readiness. How many of their obsolescent* fighters and fighter-bombers are available for use and how many are hanger queens? His many main battle tanks are ready for action and how many are in a shop awaiting parts? What are ammunition stocks like?
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* Germany has Lockheed F-35s on order but to my knowledge the planes have not yet arrived. And once they do arrive the pilots (and mechanics) will need training on the new equipment.
Althouse, Enigma:
This is italics (lower opening tag, upper closing tag) and this is not.
This is italics (upper opening tag, lower closing tag) and this is not.
In other words, it's got nothing to do with whether you use a lowercase or uppercase 'i' in your italics tag (and you can even mix and match as I show above.)
It may be, though, that when you try to perform first aid by adding an un-matched close-italics ( <i> ) that case matters, but even there that's not what the spec says, it's a bug in whatever browser is being used.
Big Mike,
It doesn't help to misrepresent the party's name. It's "Alternative für Deutschland", not "Alles..."
@Kirk, I stand corrected. I must have been thinking of a recent event where a politician was hammered for saying “Alles fur Deutschland,” since it was a slogan of the Nazis in the 1930s. So my mistake (Kinsley gaffe?) is pretty embarrassing.
However I stand by the remainder of my analysis.
“My absolute priority will be to strengthen Europe as quickly as possible so that, step by step, we can really achieve independence from the USA,”
Does Europe like being dependent on the USA? Why didn’t they start an independence initiative decades ago? After the fall of the Berlin Wall would have been a good time to start building for self sufficiency.
Big Mike, your analysis seems fine to me. (For whatever that is worth)
So the three parties, who each got individually spanked in the election, have just managed to hang on by their fingernails are going to turn even more warlike in response to what can only be seen as a drubbing over their commitment to the war.
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