I didn't think it was a joke the first time he talked about Greenland. I don't think it's so much that he's an "expansionist." I think he's looking for American's bad deals and intent on renegotiating them. He's continually complained that other countries are taking advantage of us. Wanting to change that dynamic is not an "expansionist" frame of mind. The United States takes responsibility for the world's security — or purports to — and that exposes us to exploitation. Trump seems to think he's the one to straighten that out. You can say that's a bad idea, but please address that and explain why.
The NYT brings up the person this made me think of — Theodore Roosevelt: "[Trump's] aggressive interpretation of the phrase ['American First'] evokes the expansionism, or colonialism, of President Theodore Roosevelt, who cemented control of the Philippines after the Spanish-American War. And it reflects the instincts of a real estate developer who suddenly has the power of the world’s largest military to back up his negotiating strategy.
And that other person — Putin: "When Russia invaded Ukraine, his first response was not a condemnation of the blatant land grab, but rather the observation that President Vladimir V. Putin’s move was an act of 'genius.' Even now, as Mr. Trump seeks a deal to end the war in Ukraine, he has never said that the country’s borders must be restored...."
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The Panama comments seem clearly directed at getting a reduction in fees for US ships.
If we don’t buy it, China will.
TR won the Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating a treaty between Japan and Russia. Both sides wanted to end the war, but also wanted to save face.
Comment section is NYT is being flooded with AI generated bot comments, making the place extremely boring.
Carter wanted to be alive to vote for Harris. Will he be so when Trump reclaims the Panama Canal?
Donald Trump needs to spend some time cleaning up America's problems. Not expanding into Greenland.
We have Democrats in this country literally STEALING our treasury. I want them put in jail and Donald Trump's job is to do just that.
His job is not to invade fucking Greenland.
I think both Americans and Europeans are going to start dumping unwanted migrants there.
Greenland is a source of critical rare earths for electronic devices
Using the Panama Canal as a negotiating tactic for shutting down the Darian Gap is brilliant
What exactly are the fees for using the Panama Canal? Is the US getting ripped off? Maybe the Paper-of-the-fucking-Record could actually do some fact reporting.
Do those fuckheads at the NYT realize that we all know that they are biased and deeply infected with TDS? We don't believe the Fake News any more. No credibility.
Trump = Putin is so boring. Doesn't anybody at the NYT have any imagination? At least try to come up with a new narrative for demonizing Trump.
As for Greenland, it makes me think of Seward's Folly. Trump just may be onto something.
We did buy the US Virgin Islands from Denmark. There is a precedent here.
Sangee he was leaked the western war plan into iraq and the dubious nie on irans nuclear program the details of stuixtnet now wrote fairy tales about resolute biden
Yes, it would make so much more sense to just do "business as usual," and not seek to improve the US positions on scarce ("rare") minerals and the ability to transport goods by ship from the East Coast to the West Coast. Why would any American president think that it might be his job to undertake such things? The man is obviously a loose cannon with no respect for the way things are supposed to be done.
Buy Greenland? Because the Greenland ice sheet is retreating, allowing mining? And they say Trump doesn't believe in global warming!
Buy Greenland? Because of strategic military reasons? And they say Trump is in Putin's pocket!
The cognitive dissonance is strong on the left.
The Arctic is geostrategically important. Make Greenland the 52nd state. (With Canada as the 51st, we'd control most of the top of the globe.) Just be prepared to pay. Human life in the far North Country is difficult and must be subsidized.
I think it's time to free Cuba.
Can we sentence Liz Cheney and Adam Schiff to work the mines in Greenland?
Trump's Greenland play is a shot across the bow of China for their insistence that Taiwan is essential to China's national security. It is also a useful ploy in other areas. Brilliant!
We purchased Alaska from Russia. Greenland was once green and harbors geological and strategic benefits.
Had foreign policy gotten wise and strategic thinking in the mid to late 19th century, Cuba would today be a state.
G-I-UK [the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap] has been of immense strategic importance for generations. The US is threatened by SEA, not land, and G-I-UK controls the entire North Atlantic. Long overdue, but for the first time in a generation America has a President with a pro-America vision.
It's only 20 years ago that I thought the United States should remain interested in admitting new states. Now I'm more interested in spinning off some our crazier areas.
When you get past the blather, there’s actually a pretty solid case for the U.S. “buying” Greenland. Not in the traditional sense, but more along the lines of Greenland declaring its independence from Denmark, which it has a legal right to do, and forging a strong legal bond with the U.S. similar to other protectorates that we have around the world. I’m not going to get into all of the arguments here, it is Christmas Eve after all, but I think if you do a little research, you’ll see what I mean.
I can see how Greenland might be potentially very valuable territory, but for just that reason wouldn't Denmark want to retain ownership?.....On the plus side, the Danes are white. Probably a lot of them are white supremacists who persecuted the native Inklings of that land. Serve them right if they get invaded and conquered......Panama, on the other hand, is not white. I remember when Bush deposed by force that dictator/drug trafficker who ruled Panama. The left were vocal and vehement in their opposition to Bush's invasion. Any action taken against Panama would probably tilt some of them towards utter madness......It is clearly written in UN Charter that America is not allowed to take any military action against a non-white country.
And what offer could they not 'refuse', one wonders? And what impact to the national debt?
I hope those new icebreakers are coming along.
It's also time to free Canada.
I can see how Greenland might be potentially very valuable territory, but for just that reason wouldn't Denmark want to retain ownership?
It could be that Denmark believes that it would be better for us to do the work of exploiting the raw resources while, as a condition of the sake, receive preferential trade benefits. This removes an economic weight while keeping most of the benefits.
Or part of the deal could be a 99 year requirement to solely use Danish prime contractors for resource extraction.
There is definitely trade space to end up in a win-win outcome, but the whole effort is likely quite a long shot scenario. I would think it would, at best, end up being a US territory rather than a state.
Yes, the Guam of the northeast.
Classic narciso post.
I'm all on board for acquiring Greenland. But why stop there? Why not Canada and Mexico too? Or the rest of Central America down to the Panama Canal too?
As crazy as it may seem, I see a future that has a United States of North America. Moreover, I believe that the optimal geopolitical configuration for sustained peace in the world is one in which each of the continents is a "super-country" containing the current countries on it as states, much like the USA today.
Nearness and border disputes cause friction. Friction leads to wars. Separation by seas would help. Sadly, Europe and Asia would still be a problem.
16 tons loaded with teaspoon as shovel
Interesting point re. the Darién Gap.
Amen, narciso. And feck the Biden crime family.
I think he's looking for American's bad deals and intent on renegotiating them.
How is Greenland's status an example of a bad deal? Greenland has been under the control of Scandanavia since about 1000 CE.
Since Trump brought it up, shouldn't he have the facts to back him up?
Sixteen tons and what do ya get
A female mackerel what lost her biggest bet
A lying sack of schiff, a real pencil-necked geek
Hanging’s too good for the googly eyed freak
"the Guam of the northeast"
and, The Good News IS: there are few people in Greenland, so little danger of it tipping over!
Do those fuckheads at Althouse realize that we all know they have NYTDS?
People who had Obama Derangement Syndrome don't have a leg to stand on, Dave
In contrast to every previous great power, the United States did not use its massive military and economic might at the end of World War II to grab territory. It granted independence to the Philippines and ended its occupations of the former Axis powers after they had moved onto democratic paths. The absence of territorial ambitions was an important attraction of the United States as an ally and has contributed to the stability of the U.S.-led world order of the last 90 years. Now, Trump is threatening a fellow NATO member with a grab of territory. He does not seem to have thought even a response tweet ahead. Imagine these responses and their corresponding actions:
“Denmark enlists China, Russia as guarantors of Greenland’s resistance to U.S. aggression.”
“For purposes of National Security and Freedom throughout the World, the People’s Republic of China feels that the ownership and control of Taiwan is an absolute necessity.”
“For purposes of National Security and Freedom throughout the World, the Russian Federation feels that the ownership and control of Ukraine and Alaska is an absolute necessity.”
“For purposes of National Security and Freedom throughout the World, the United States of Mexico feels that the ownership and control of the territories ceded to the Yankee invaders by the Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo is an absolute necessity.”
“For purposes of National Security and Freedom throughout the World, the Republic of Indonesia feels that the ownership and control of Sabah and Sarawak is an absolute necessity.” (For those who do not know the history, Indonesia fought an undeclared war against Malaysia and its former colonial power turned ally Britain in the 1960s in a failed attempt to seize those territories.)
…and so on.
In the mind of the world and American media, Trump is already the president. Sure, there's that guy handing out goodies and payments, but Democrats are more like the tenant being evicted who is tearing up the place as they prepare to leave.
Trump is also exhausting the MSM and social media complainers. What will they be upset about on Jan 21? Greenland, the border, Canada as a state, Ukraine, the number of genders? What will they have that is fresh to outrage over?
And those things well received will continue, while the others will slip from the pages of punditry.
All in all, the inauguration will be anti-climatic.
The responses that you suggest might occur either will or won't happen, and for reasons unrelated to Trump's tweets. They will or won't occur based upon the objective correlation of material and cultural forces.
I think Trump's statements regarding the Panama Canal and Greenland (and Canada?) should be taken seriously but not literally. My best guess is that he wants to gain a strategic toehold over those places to preempt China and/or Russia from doing the same. But I think he's really aiming to do this by means of negotiation and new treaty arrangements, not by annexation or conquest (or by granting statehood!).
Greenland was once green and harbors geological and strategic benefits.
Greenland hasn't been “green”—in the sense of entirely free of its large icecap—for many hundreds of thousands of years. The Greenland that the Vikings settled on was essentally as ice-bound as it is today.
Buy Greenland? Because the Greenland ice sheet is retreating, allowing mining? And they say Trump doesn't believe in global warming!
Greenland's great mile-deep ice sheet is indeed melting at present—at a rate which will see Greenland totally ice-free… in something more than 10,000 years!
On the other hand, Greenland is subcontinental in size, and the parts of it which are snow and ice free (during summer) right now are about the size of Montana or California.
New York Trump Derangement Syndrome?? Yep. It does seem that way but it isn't Trump supporters that are suffering from it.
And to think, you still believe in Obama after all his lies. Who do you think is actually ruining things in America using Biden as his puppet??
Except for the three or four years in WW II when Denmark didn’t exist.
Freder, the only way to know if he has his facts is if some reporter asks him. And they will only know if he is right, literally or figuratively, if they have the answer. Your question REQUIRES the paper of record (or any other journalistic entity) to do exactly what Dave is asking.
Althouse asks the (obvious) questions that the self-anointed elite media do not, but should be.
Also, Trump makes life much more interesting and entertaining, especially for Greenlanders right now.
So, the US govt is far too small to have different complete teams assembled to handle specific Trump admin vision/policy issues with Trump moving in and out as needed at only the highest levels for negotiations and to move the ball forward.
NATO, of which US and Denmark both members, should prevent US seizing Greenland. Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance aka Rio Treaty, of which Panama and US both members, should do the same for Panama Canal. Congress would have to appropriate the funds to purchase Greenland or the Canal. Don't remember Trump campaigning on these issues so I fail to see how his election with less than half the popular vote gave him a mandate in this area.
When Trump was first elected, I was trying to have a conversation with a leftist loon at work. He finally blurted out, "I'm just afraid Trump issuing to have nuclear war with Greenland!" I said, For Fu@k Sake, you are hopeless - it isn't worth even trying to talk to you any more."
I am wondering just what the us and Panama agree oto under the Carter treaty. Are they living up to their side of the bargain? Are we? Best way to find out what the agreement is is to read the treaty.
It's here https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/wha/rlnks/11936.htm?os=f&ref=app
I've not read it but yet but did download it to pocket and will eventually.
John Henry
Treaty terminated last day of December 1999 when Panama got the Canal.
Funny you should mention that, gspencer. There were some Americans working on that, but they ran into some opposition from a guy named Lincoln. Him and a bunch of his friends.
How would you know? A thing is worth what someone will pay for it. I suppose it could be that US-flagged ships are getting charged more than others. Of course, the only reason anyone US-flags a ship any more is that only US-flagged ships can legally carry cargo between US ports.
How do you suppose he does it? Audio transcription, with a hyper-active autocorrect? Still doesn't explain how you get an "i" in "stuxnet". Must be typing with his thumbs on a touchscreen keyboard.
Not really read the treaty of 1977 yet but did skim it and a couple interesting things pop out:
Article III
1. The Republic of Panama, as territorial sovereign, grants to the United States of America the rights to manage, operate, and maintain the Panama Canal, its complementary works, installations, and equipment and to provide for the orderly transit of vessels through the Panama Canal. The United States of America accepts the grant of such rights and undertakes to exercise them in accordance with this Treaty and related agreements.
Emphasis added
Also
Article III Section 2:
(d) Establish, modify, collect and retain tolls for the use of the Panama Canal, and other charges, and establish and modify methods of their assessment;
So how come China has the contract to run the canal? (As I understand it) Why is the US not running it?
If the tolls are unreasonable, the US seems to have the power to change them.
Perhaps President to be Trump knows what he is talking about.
John Henry
It would be hard to take the canal militarily. It is extremely fragile. All that would need to happen would be for a ship in one of the upper locks to have an engine malfunction. Going into full ahead forward at the wrong time and destroying one of the uppermost locks.
This would quickly drain Gatun Lake and even if the lock could be fixed, it would take months, maybe years, to fill enough to allow normal operation.
John Henry
Just think what people have been distracted from by Trump's Greenland troll.
It is such a new idea. My whole life, since 1970, America has always been a fixed entity of 50 states and 3.8 million square miles. Expansion was not on anyone's radar.
Now I wonder, why not. There are economies of scale in business, why not in a country. Greenland, Canada, Guam, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, Mexico...why not. DJT likes real estate and he likes deals and growth. Maybe the integration with USA will bring imrovements to these new states.
I am open to bringing them in as states.
R's might worry the newbies will vote heav D (not the rapper), which might be true, I am uncertain. Maybe the fact that an R (DJT) mader it happen will help R's. Also, maybe a package deal, where Red portion of the West Coast states (WA,OR,CA) are carved out and become 3 new states to offset the D gains from new states. Maybe R's could demand MA and several other blue states redo their gerrymander to give R's at least one more congressional district.
MAGA says "Let's Make A Deal"
Lloyd W. Robertson writes, "TR won the Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating a treaty between Japan and Russia".
Perhaps the among the easiest-earned NPP ever, but far down the list from Lord Zero's, the one award for absolutely nothing except not being a Bush and being black (well, black-ish). Tsar Nicholas wanted out, not because he'd lost, by 1906 the Romanovs were well-accustomed to losing wars. What the Emperor wasn't accustomed to was revolution. The Russo-Japanese War coincided with the most dangerous popular uprising since Pugachev's rebellion in 1773. Nicholas mistakenly assumed the one initiated the other, and by sending his prime minister, Count Sergei Witte to attend Roosevelt's peace talks he hoped to cool off the brewing revolution by relieving his army of war-fighting in the Far East. Saving face had little to do with it compared to saving his throne.
I doubt saving face had little Japan's motives, either. They'd already won effective control of Port Arthur by a massive surprise attack executed without any of the normal formalities. That act certainly inflicted a loss of face on Japan in the eyes of the Great Powers, anyone can get the better of a white imperialist power by a stab in the back. It certainly made Kaiser William feel even more pride in his strategic acumen. The Yellow Peril, indeed. However, the destruction of Rozhestvensky's Second Pacific Squadron, truly astounded Europe. That victory gained the Japanese all the face they could want. Tsushima made the Crowned Heads sit up and take notice of a newborn great power, an untrustworthy power, but a power to be reckoned with nonetheless.
It was the sneak attack on Port Arthur (9 February 1904) that compelled President Roosevelt to favor the Russians and deny Japan the all spoils she demanded. He could not be seen to reward treachery. How ironic that Japan repaid being punished for a surprise attack on a fleet at anchor without the decency of a war declaration beforehand by another surprise attack on a fleet at anchor without the decency of a war declaration beforehand.
In 1941 while the US was still claiming to be neutral "neutral" (koff, koff) fdr invaded and occupied Iceland with army troops
Iceland did not object and sent their defense force far north "for training"
Might president trump use this as precedent?
John Henry
Lloyd W. Robertson writes, "TR won the Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating a treaty between Japan and Russia".
Perhaps the among the easiest-earned NPP ever, but far down the list from Lord Zero's, the one awarded for absolutely nothing except not being a Bush and being black (well, black-ish). Tsar Nicholas wanted out, not because he'd lost, by 1906 the Romanovs were well-accustomed to losing wars. What the Emperor wasn't accustomed to was revolution. The Russo-Japanese War coincided with the most dangerous popular uprising since Pugachev's rebellion in 1773. Nicholas mistakenly assumed the one initiated the other, and by sending his prime minister, Count Sergei Witte, to attend Roosevelt's peace talks he hoped to cool off the brewing revolution by relieving his army of war-fighting in the Far East. Saving face had little to do with it compared to saving his throne.
I doubt saving face had little Japan's motives, either. They'd already won effective control of Port Arthur by a massive surprise attack executed without any of the normal formalities. That act certainly inflicted a loss of face on Japan in the eyes of the Great Powers, anyone can get the better of a white imperialist power by a stab in the back. It certainly made Kaiser William feel even more pride in his strategic acumen. The Yellow Peril, indeed. However, the destruction of Rozhestvensky's Second Pacific Squadron, truly astounded Europe. That victory gained the Japanese all the face they could want. Tsushima made the Crowned Heads sit up and take notice of a newborn great power, an untrustworthy power, but a power to be reckoned with nonetheless.
It was the sneak attack on Port Arthur (9 February 1904) that compelled President Roosevelt to favor the Russians and deny Japan the all spoils she demanded. He could not be seen to reward treachery. How ironic that Japan repaid being punished for a surprise attack on a fleet at anchor without the decency of a war declaration beforehand by another surprise attack on a fleet at anchor without the decency of a war declaration beforehand.
One would think the tsar's ministers would have been grateful or at least cordial toward the Americans for handing them such an inexpensive peace on a platter. One would be wrong. Instead of gratitude, all Witte had to say about the peace talks and American hospitality were complaints about the cuisine.
Political junkie
Puerto Rico is already legally a "state" for various purposes under federal law.
Look up the definition of state under the section of cfr regulating and defining g citizenship.
50 states, DC, PR, Guam, usvi, northern Marian's. Bot Samoa or swain island. They are us nationals not citizens
John Henry
I recently watched a fine movie at Amazon Prime called, "The Good Traitor." It covered the actions of the Danish ambassador to the US during WWII when Denmark was occupied by Germany.
"In April 1941, the Danish ambassador to the US, Henrik Kauffmann, signed an agreement with the US government allowing American troops to be present in Greenland.
This agreement effectively made Greenland a de facto US protectorate, as Denmark was under German occupation at the time.
The US established several military bases and installations in Greenland, including:
Bluie West One (now Narsarsuaq Airport)
Bluie West Eight (now Kangerlussuaq Airport)
Bluie East Two (now abandoned)
These bases served multiple purposes:
Defending Greenland from potential German invasion
Providing weather information crucial for North Atlantic operations
Serving as stopover points for aircraft being delivered to Europe under the Lend-Lease program.
The US Coast Guard played a significant role in establishing the American presence, including setting up a consulate and radio station.
The US military conducted various operations in Greenland, including dismantling German weather stations and capturing German personnel.
This World War II-era agreement laid the groundwork for the continued US military presence in Greenland during the Cold War and beyond."
The US has had a strong presence in Greenland for some time.
BTW the population of Greenland is only about 57K. Maybe they could use some of our migrants.
I seriously doubt Trump is going to annex Greenland or take back the Panama Canal. It's 1/3 joke, 1/3 signal that America is back and great again, and 1/3 Boomer nostalgia. I still think the mountain is Mt. McKinley and that there is a place called the Panama Canal Zone. Back when Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett were still heroes -- back before Vietnam and everything going pear-shaped -- it wasn't unusual to wonder what our next new states or territorial acquisitions could be (not that we were actually going to have any).
"In 1941 while the US was still claiming to be neutral "neutral" (koff, koff) fdr invaded and occupied Iceland with army troops."
I wouldn't have used the word "invaded". Iceland had been occupied by the British in 1940 (not without a bit of arm-twisting regarding fishing rights) to prevent a possible occupation of that defenseless yet strategically vital island by German troops. Churchill's need for troops in North Africa led FDR to agree to that "changing of the guard". Iceland's Allthing agreed because the presence of neutral (let Hitler do the coughing) troops in Iceland were a more effective deterrent to Nazi intervention than the British presence.
Info quoted from perplexity.ai
Passage fees for the canal are like public transport fares. Everyone thinks they pay too much, even though the system runs at a loss. It's 120 years old and I bet it takes a ton of maintenance to keep it in one piece by now.
I wonder what the people of Greenland think. Given self-determination, would they prefer Denmark or USA? Acquiring Greenland will definitely help in the coming war against Canada.
Yes quaestor. I really meant that tongue in cheek.
The Germans thought it an invasion though and it was one of the provocation that led to them declaring war on us.
As I recall it was listed in their declaration of war but it's been a while and I may be misremembering
John Henry
I hope Trump hasn't been sucked in by the mercator projection.
Trump does some last-minute Christmas shopping.
A quarter century or so ago, I traversed the Panama Canal on a cruise ship. It was before the canal expansion had been completed, so only "relatively small" ships could traverse the Canal (I would not have called our ship "relatively small" except for seeing the "next generation" of cruise ships at some of our ports). One of our fellow passengers was a retired canal pilot, who provided us all with a running commentary on the passage.
Frankly, by now I thought the Chinese would have put Panama out of business with a Nicaraguan Canal.
Maybe the Chinese should buy Greenland?
I hear you. Accept everything you said. I just favor making them 51, 52, 53, etc.
And Louisiana from France. Who thought that later they'd be able to take it back..
Or one strategic weather modification hurricane. Haven't you heard? We can do that now.
Y'all are missing a key point in annexing Greenland: We would have Canada 3/4ths surrounded. Alaska on the west, Greenland on the east, and the 48 below.
why not Elon build YUUGE Boring Machine for SubMarine Passage!!!!
Greenland is soooo Yuuge
Santa's Workshop will in part of USA!!!
Screw Nato >> Trump should offer to buy Georgia and Moldova for sailing Trump cruise ships
maybe Navy Officer Carter funeral can be like Osama's
Screw Nato >> Trump should offer to buy Georgia and Moldova for sailing Trump cruise ships
Could Greenland be MAGA play - Deal - to stack up against - NeoCon play for Siberia
Screw Nato >> Trump should offer to buy Georgia and Moldova for sailing Trump cruise ships painted Orange in Black Sea
Luv it.
57,000? Could fit the entire population into a football stadium. Wonder what percentage are related to each other?
As the Guam of the northeast, frozen into the arctic ice sheet much of the year, Greenland would be much less likely to capsize if the US overloaded it with military bases, right?
About four years ago I started learning as much as I could about Greenland, its history, geography, even a little of its language (which is the most difficult language in the world). Greenland would resist and resent any outside control. Especially if the United States plans on exploiting its natural resources. For decades Greenaldn has slowly been moving toward complete independence from Denmark. Although my impression is many Greenlanders are pretty comfortable with Greenland as an autonomous territory.
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