Andrea Grillo, professor of sacramental theology at the Anselmianum, a pontifical university in Rome, said that Francis’s statements sounded “as if a woman can only be a mother, wife, daughter or sister — roles that are always beholden to man. Whereas men are free to be what they will. … It’s a very old kind of 'wisdom' that the contemporary world has walked past.”
September 29, 2024
"The woman is more important than the man, but it’s bad when the woman wants to be a man."
Said Pope Francis, quoted in "Pope criticized for giving ‘reductive’ view on women’s role in society/A Catholic university took the rare step of criticizing Pope Francis, saying that he called women 'a fertile welcome, care, vital devotion.'"
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Pretty sure men are forced to be father, husband, son or brother.
Beholden to women.
This will be another of many stories where the writer knows better than the Pope, assumes he understood him correctly (but didn’t - probably doesn’t even speak the same language and read a translation) and has ZERO understanding of the faith. I’ll pass…
Ladies, if it's any consolation, the current pope is not Catholic. Feel free to disregard this marxist-in-sheperd's vestments at your leisure.
I read this as an entirely gender-based comment by the Pope, who I consider as does RideSpaceMountain. In the first part of the statement he used "the man", but in the second he said "a man." As specific and vetted as formal Papal statements are, if he had used "the man" in both instances the implication would have been "role assumption"?
Nature's plan for binary sexes. Gender (e.g. sexual orientation) is, of course, an intrinsic quality of fitness.
I'm absolutely sure you can be a sister without being "beholden to a man", if all your siblings are also female.
Oh, you mean "beholden to a man" as in you must have had a father, even if you never met him, or don't know his name, or even your mother doesn't know his name? Then every man is "beholden to a woman" in exactly the same way, and to a greater degree: his mother. The Pope's statement can certainly be criticized, but the self-appointed critic's statement is idiotic.
Mmmm, fertile welcome — sounds yummy!
Shane said...
In the first part of the statement he used "the man", but in the second he said "a man."
The Pope or Neil Armstrong?
It’s a very old kind of 'wisdom' that the contemporary world has walked past.
And look at it.
Indeed. This strategy has become popular lately, wherein a mortal enemy of some historic institution somehow is able to become its leader in a masterful display of stealth shape-shifting. Obama as the President of the United States is another good example. Kamala Harris, not so much, because the stealth is so retro-fitted. You never do retro-fitted stealth.
I was going to complain about the mis-placed “but” between two statements that are complimentary, but then I caught Grillo’s silly criticism. None of those terms define women in relation to men any more than the equivalent male terms define men in relation to women. But he conveniently forgets that part.
I sat let’s not dwell on that, let’s get straight to the excommunication.
A Catholic university took the rare step of criticizing Pope Francis, saying that he called women "a fertile welcome, care, vital devotion."
"Well, I just mean that, you know, you look bountiful. Okay? Fruitful. Fertile."
I imagine Andrea Grillo, the leftist holder of some academic sinecure, floundering about, trying to phrase some sort of critique of a tautology. Francis is bad. Andrea is worse.
so they paraphrase the pope, and then criticize him for their statement,
yes this pontiff is woefully out of his depth
Those are the singular and exclusive roles of women. For men it is father, husband, son, and brother. As a person, the male and female sex present other value. This is why while persons in the transgender spectrum (e.g. homosexuals) have no redeeming value to society or humanity as couplets, but do as persons serving in other roles. This only became controversial when Democratics legalized queer sexual orientations: pedophilia, polygamy, sadomasochism, homosexuality, incest, etc. on penalty of hate crime (e.g. witch hunts, warlock trials - cancelation). Can liberals perform human rites, cannibalize her profitable parts, sequester her carbon pollutants, and have her, too?
The unmarried, celibate Pope tells us all about women.
I dunno...maybe all the Pope meant is"Without women there would be no humans." Kinda mundane, even if true.
Like women's chess.
In the animal kingdom, gender roles are well delineated and females are, almost invariably, the nurturers of the young. Since humans evolved from animals, it is not surprising that the same has been true for humans in virtually all civilizations throughout the millennia. While women can and often do pursue lifestyles that don't include being a wife or mother, it's hard to dispute that so-called "traditional" gender roles are baked into our DNA as a species.
Sex dysphoria is an insidious social dysfunction normalized in handmade tales.
The Pope offers an affirmative tautology of the sexes in Nature. WaPo brays in critical journolistic fashion that is alienating its audience, claims the editor in chief.
What part of the ‘The woman is more important than the man’ shit did they not understand?
you said it
he is son of woman
that mean big tits and wide hips
My first reading was, "The woman is more important than the man, but it’s bad when the man wants to be a woman." That makes sense. Girl power is everywhere. Women are leaning in and asserting themselves more and more, all the time. Why wouldn't a man want to join the winning, "more important" side, even though it's bad? Why not get a piece of the pie?
Then I realized he was talking about something else. In the Christian (as opposed to the post-Christian) world, transsexuality isn't a burning issue ... or not quite so burning an issue ... yet.
In the past, the Church had many burning issues, which involved high stakes.
You gotta give liberal women a lot of credit for transforming bitching into an ideology. Bitch away, ladies!
The writer, or any other woman, can start their own religion whenever they want. This never occurs to them. Don't like a male-dominated religion? Start a female one. Quit trying to take over what WE built already. Get up off your lazy fat behinds and build something yourselves, ladies.
In pride parades, women often serve as aunts to raise the Posterity of fertile females. In liberal societies, as womb banks to infertile couples and couplets. With social progress, as affordable, available, reusable, taxable commodities of State. You've come a long way, baby... fetus.
https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/new-offensive-in-war-on-traditional-liturgy/ is the Pope catholic, not rhetorical
"as if only a woman can be a mother, wife, daughter or sister" fify
If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
The most innocent of dances would thwart the assignation a residence, escape those residences under surveillance; the dance changes place and above all changes places. In its wake they can no longer be recognized. The joyous disturbance of certain women's movements, and of some women in particular, has actually brought with it the chance for a certain risky turbulence in the assigning of places within our small European space (I am not speaking of a more ample upheaval en route to world-wide application). Is one then going to start all over again making maps, topographics, etc.?distributing sexual identity cards?
Choreographies read 5 or 6 pages, ignore the occasional jargon. It's about true feminism vs what it's turned into.
Agree about the Pope and Obama.
Did they interrupt the Palestinian riot to say that ?
Grillo is being deliberately obtuse (or maybe he can't help it).
The pope wasn't discussing careers or the like.
In terms of matters of sexuality and family structure, it's entirely correct that these are the only available roles for women.
My ears shut down when I hear someone write or say something is 'reductive' To me, that is a word thrown around academic circles, and it means nothing precise.
What is pope's opinion of the man who wants to be the woman>?
At the gym - in the women's locker room?
Or at the prison? etc..
Nietzsche said that the serene attractiveness of women is an effect of distance.
A woman has a pixelated, porous, even, aesthetic in the near space. Women have a pixelated effect (i.e. individual dignity) from afar.
Contrary to Grillo's ontological reduction, the Pope claims women have a disproprtionately productive role in [human] society.
#MenToo in Gaia's wisdom and functional evolution have their roles to play.
reading a detective novel:
You could not describe her as attractive because it would be an absurd understatement, like calling the Himalayas tall, or the Pacific quite big.
She was about five ten, with a slim waist and generous hips and bust. Her legs were long, shapely, and graceful, as were her arms. She was wearing faded jeans and a white cotton shirt -- a man's shirt -- undone to the waist and hanging loose. Her hair was what they used to call an Afro in the late 60s and early 70s. Not exaggerated, but enough to be cute. It framed a face that was astonishing in its beauty. The eyes were long and black, her cheekbones were high, and her lips, though full and generous, were also exquisitely shaped.
Which reminds me of Zuleika Dobson (Max Beerbohm):
Zuleika was not strictly beautiful. Her eyes were a trifle large, and their lashes longer than they need have been. An anarchy of small curls were her chevelure, a dark upland of misrule, every hair asserting its rights over a not discreditable brow. For the rest, her features were not at all original. They seemed to have been derived rather from a gallimaufry of familiar models. From Madame la Marquise de Saint-Ouen came the shapely tilt of the nose. The mouth was a mere replica of Cupid's bow, lacquered scarlet and strung with the littlest pearls. No apple tree, no wall of peaches, had not been robbed, nor any Tyrian rose-garden, for the glory of Miss Dobson's cheeks. Her neck was imitation-marble. Her hands and feet were of very mean proportions. She had no waist to speak of.
wow this is really informative blog...I like it
A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke. - Kipling.
nicely done tcrosse
The Pope is to Catholics like trump is to MAGA's, it's what your stuck th so grin and bear it.Women are the NEW WORLD decides. NO woman , no man, (sounds little like Bob Marley)Remember it's the Lord's day kept your tongue from foulness 😀
"gallimaufry" ripe for Altparse
A woman is the female sex, a feminine gender constellation, and a person with equal rights in the conservative model.
Women are important, but so are men, it takes two to tango, baby.
Says the beta male/female
Anyone who writes “the transgender spectrum (e.g. homosexuals)” is as dumb as Francis.
Here's a woman in Italy - a daughter, sister, mother - and Prime Minister. She's telling off the Prime Minister of France - a son and a son, according to reports - but anyhow a supporter of unrestricted immigration from Africa because of African poverty. She says that France receives 50% of the profits from gold mining in former French colonies - mining which is done in unhealthy conditions by child workers. if Africa kept the wealth from its resources, Africans would not be poor and desperate immigrants to the countries exploiting their homeland.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1839634587774755224
“You no playee the game, you no makee the rules“ said some feminist to Pope Paul back in ’73 or so. Shit, it might have been Althouse, for all I know....
“Andrea Grillo, professor of sacramental theology, said that … It’s a very old kind of 'wisdom' that the contemporary world has walked past.”
Pot, kettle.
What’s his complaint? He says that women are superior as servants for children and husbands. Which is unfair design. The bad one here is the designer. But that’s still the design.
The Theory of Evolution is critical of sex and sex-correlated gender roles in society. Morality moves us beyond the tar pit of secular ethical religions of progressive past.
"The woman is more important than the man, but it’s bad when the woman wants to be a man."
Sounds like a Harry Bellafonte Island song to me.
I would venture a guess that he would say he's the son of a chest feeder.
It was a blonde. A blonde to make a bishop kick a hole in a stained glass window.
OF COURSE relationship is the highest calling of woman, such as mother, wife, sister, daughter. Particularly in sharing with God the power of creating new life.
Meanwhile, what is the highest calling of men? Well, consider how the Church addresses priests - the Church calls them "Father." That should clue you that the highest calling of the male part of the species is also relationship - father, husband, brother, son.
And why should this be so objectionable? After all, the meaning of life is relationship. Namely, to love and be loved.
The problem is that some females so hate their womanhood that they despise the ONE thing that is exclusive to woman - the ability to conceive and bear a child. This should also clue you in on why the person the Church reveres more than any other pope or other man or other person (besides Jesus) is a woman: Mary.
For those who want to know and understand what Francis really said, here is the actual address:
Reflecting on human ecology brings us to an issue close to your hearts, as well as to mine and that of my predecessors: the role of women in the Church. I liked what you said. There is much involved here, including the questions of violence and injustice, as well as ideological prejudices. This is why we must go back to what is essential: who is woman and who is the Church? The Church is woman, female and not male. She is female, a wife. The Church is the People of God, not a multinational corporation. A woman within the People of God is a daughter, a sister, a mother, just as a man is a son, a brother, a father. These are all relationships, which express the fact that we have been made in the image of God, as men and women, together not separately! In the Church, men and women have been called from the beginning to love and to be loved. This is a vocation, and also a mission that then gives rise to their roles both in society and in the Church (cf. SAINT JOHN PAUL II, Mulieris Dignitatem, 1).
What characterizes women, that which is truly feminine, is not stipulated by consensus or ideologies, just as dignity itself is ensured not by laws written on paper, but by an original law written on our hearts. Dignity is a priceless good, an innate quality, which no human law can give or take away. Based on this common and shared dignity, Christian culture, in its varied contexts, seeks to develop ever fresh understandings of the mission and life of men and women and their mutual being for each other in communion. They are not meant to be rivals. That would be feminism or chauvinism. Instead, man for woman and woman for man, together.
We must remember that women are at the very heart of salvation history. It is thanks to the “yes” of Mary that God himself came into the world. Womanhood speaks to us of fruitful welcome, nurturing and life-giving dedication. For this reason, a woman is more important than a man, but it is terrible when a woman wants to be a man: no, she is a woman, and this is “heavy” and important. Let us be more attentive to the many daily expressions of this love, from friendship to the workplace, from studies to the exercise of responsibility in the Church and society, from marriage to motherhood, or from virginity to the service of others and the building up of the kingdom of God. Let us not forget. I will repeat, the Church is woman, not male, the Church is woman.
You yourselves are here in order to grow as women and as men. You are on a journey, a process of human formation. That is why your academic studies encompass different fields: research, friendship, social service, civic and political responsibility, artistic expression, and so on.
https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2024/september/documents/20240928-belgio-studenti-universitari.html
In the first part of the statement he used "the man", but in the second he said "a man."
The Vatican's own version shows that Pope Francis said, "a man" in both instances.
The unmarried, celibate Pope tells us all about women
Oooo, good one! Did you think that up all by yourself? Or did the hundred billion others before you who said the same thing help you come up with that?
Francis' later remarks in the address also touch on this question of woman as he discusses how we are all called to help one another as a community, not a bunch of self-interested individuals:
Third, for whom to study? For yourselves? In order to be accountable to others? We ought to study in order to be able to educate and serve others, and to serve others with competence and confidence. Before asking ourselves if studying is useful for something, we should first make sure that it is useful for someone. It is a beautiful question for a university student to ask: whom can I serve, myself? Or do I have a heart open for another type of service? A university degree will then indicate a capacity for serving the common good. I study for myself, for work, to be useful, for the common good. This requires a great deal of balance.
Dear students, it is a joy for me to share these thoughts with you. And as we reflect, we can see that there is an even greater reality that enlightens us and transcends us: the truth. What is truth? Pilate asked this question. Without truth, our life loses its meaning. Studying makes sense only when it seeks the truth with a critical mind. Finding truth requires critical thinking. This is the way for moving forward. Do not forget that studying makes sense when it seeks the truth. When seeking it we understand that we are made in order to find it. Truth is meant to be found, for it is inviting, accessible and generous. But if we renounce the search for truth, then study becomes an instrument of power, a way to control others; it no longer serves but dominates. I must confess that it makes me sad when I discover a university that only prepares students to make money or gain power. It is overly individualistic, without community. Alma mater is a university community that helps to shape society, to create fraternity. Studying is not useful if it does not include a communal search for the truth. It is not helpful. It dominates. Whereas the truth sets us free (cf. Jn 8:32). Dear students, do you want freedom? Then seek and bear witness to the truth! And try to be credible and authentic in the simple and daily choices you make. In this way, your university will become, each day, exactly what it is meant to be: a Catholic University! Move forward, move forward, and do not enter into conflicts over ideological dichotomies, no. Do not forget that the Church is woman. This will help us a great deal.
The husband is the head of the family, the wife is the neck.
My family's adherence to the Tridentine Mass led us to be heretics from Rome, then accepted again, and now heretics again. Popes say all sorts of things and often change their statements over time when talking about stuff, rather than pronouncing doctrine ex cathedra. I come from a family steeped in traditional pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism and although now a very lapsed Catholic (that's a valid religious classification, by the way) I still delight in seeing people other than my saintly mother and darling sibling sister denounce the Pope when he doesn't say what they want to hear. Tail, wag that dog.
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