March 17, 2024

It's sad to see the NYT framing the fight for freedom of speech as a perverse force.

I'm reading "How Trump’s Allies Are Winning the War Over Disinformation/Their claims of censorship have successfully stymied the effort to filter election lies online" (NYT)(free access link).
Academic researchers wrestled with how to strengthen efforts to monitor false posts. Mr. Trump and his allies embarked instead on a counteroffensive, a coordinated effort to block what they viewed as a dangerous effort to censor conservatives....

Waged in the courts, in Congress and in the seething precincts of the internet, that effort has eviscerated attempts to shield elections from disinformation in the social media era.
It tapped into — and then, critics say, twisted — the fierce debate over free speech and the government’s role in policing content.... Facing legal and political blowback, the Biden administration has largely abandoned moves that might be construed as stifling political speech.... Social media platforms now provide fewer checks against the intentional spread of lies about elections....

Much more at the link, including discussion of the case to be argued tomorrow in the Supreme Court (which "accuses federal officials of colluding with or coercing the platforms to censor content critical of the government"). 

124 comments:

Another old lawyer said...

The "government[] [has a] role in policing content"? Who knew that was among the police powers of the State.

Aggie said...

The swiftness that the bill that has just passed through the House is frightening, and the battle lines are becoming defined. It's all about Trump, and proclaiming the authority to declare 'Truth' and 'Untruth', and 'Disinformation' and 'Malinformation' - and then taking action to eliminate it so that your tender eyes won't be sullied.

No law is too severe, no power too mighty. The machinery of government was brought to bear against his administration for its entire term, the most powerful tools that government can defensively wield against foreign influence, brought to bear on a duly elected President. If the courts can be relied upon to pretend disinterest, or even to sustain hostility, then it might work. This is their latest front.

Skeptical Voter said...

Disinformation is in the eye (and ears) of the beholder. Someone told me that Joe Biden is doing a great job!

Narr said...

Heaven forfend that something designed and deployed to stifle political speech be construed as stifling political speech.

I do like the 'seething' and 'evisceration.' Colorful and vivid.



JaimeRoberto said...

The NY Times can spare me their concern over misinformation when this is the headline on a story that is also on their front page: "Trump Says Some Migrants Are ‘Not People’ and Predicts a ‘Blood Bath’ if He Loses".

rehajm said...

It wouldn’t hurt NYT to occasionally display a bit of gratitude that propaganda is protected speech.

Mr. Majestyk said...

The fact that there has to be any debate over "the government's role in policing content" is outrageous.

Josephbleau said...

The times wants the cake and to eat it. It wants to stop criticism of those they love, and to be free to create hoaxes about those they hate. It’s so transparent, but journalists think they are smart and tricky.

David53 said...

This article is really about why we need more, not less, censorship. 51 intelligence experts agree.

hawkeyedjb said...

If the first amendment came up for a vote in congress, it wouldn't have a chance.

Jersey Fled said...

The lack of self awareness on the part of the NYT is staggering.

Drago said...

"Their claims of censorship have successfully stymied the effort to filter election lies online" (NYT)"

What timing by our New Soviet Democraticals! Right smack dab in the middle of the latest LEFTY/DEM/LLR manufactured disinformation "bloodbath" lie/hoax!

Mason G said...

"Academic researchers wrestled with how to strengthen efforts to monitor false posts."

Fuck this shit. After what the left has done in the name of "blocking misinformation", they are the absolute last people who should be allowed any control whatsoever over what people say unless they're talking about shutting their own pieholes.

deepelemblues said...

The government has no role in "policing content" in the sphere of political speech that is not incitement. Which is very narrowly defined by law and judicial precedent. Not that that matters to these people. They must be stopped.

TreeJoe said...

The antidote to bad speech is more speech.

The antidote to government controlled speech is overthrow of the government.

Which, exactly, is the lower threshold?

robother said...

To the NYT, Althouse is just another "seething precinct of the internet." Should we refer to Ann Althouse as Ms. Information?

Friend of the Fish Folk said...

This really reads as a good news story. Even so, it is hard to stomach all of the ways the NYT tries to spin this against anyone aligned with Trump.

mgarbowski said...

"[T]he fierce debate over free speech and the government’s role in policing content."

It's not complicated. The government has no such role.

Yancey Ward said...

Shorter NYTimes:

"How can it possibly be unconstitutional to shut down the speech of our political opponents?"

Sebastian said...

"It's sad to see the NYT framing the fight for freedom of speech as a perverse force."

Sure. Refreshingly missing: they shouldn't do that! they should be better!

"a coordinated effort to block what they viewed as a dangerous effort to censor conservatives...."

What they viewed as an obvious fact.

"It tapped into — and then, critics say, twisted — the fierce debate over free speech and the government’s role in policing content...."

Ah, "critics" say.

"Social media platforms now provide fewer checks against the intentional spread of lies about elections...."

True. I keep seeing lies about how U.S. elections are safe and secure.

Rich said...

The media's commercial interests override their alleged journalistic interests. They want a close race, and as much spectacle as possible — viewers, clicks, engagement and ultimately oodles of campaign, PAC and issue group advertising. It’s nauseating for sure. And not at all *news*

vermonter said...

In my area of the Internet we don’t have a precinct boss whipping us into a seething, frenzied froth. I must not know the right people.

Bob Boyd said...

The smartest people are the dumbest people these days. They think their ideas must be the best, not because they’ve examined them, but because they paid so much for them.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Sad, sure, but-- if you remember their reaction to Citizens United-- not much of a surprise.

Darkisland said...

When has the NYT ever been worried about truth? Or even "truth".

They have a 150 year history of pissing on our legs and trying to tell us it is raining.

More generally, for those who wish "newspapers could be the way they used to be" they are.

They've been this way since the first broadsheet 500 years ago.

Fuck 'em. Ignore' em. Let them go broke.

John Henry

Rich said...

By God, we have a right to lie to you and if you call us out you're violating our right to lie to you. You must shut up so we don't have to.

Trump asked Durham to investigate Mueller, and Durham found Trump crimes. Trump asked Weiss to investigate the Bidens, and Weiss found a Russian asset paid by Trump associates that lied to the FBI about the Bidens.

That's funny to me.

cubanbob said...

After Trump wins, how long before the NYT has a course correction? Five minutes?

alanc709 said...

Walter Duranty would completely agree that it's the right that spreads disinformation. Duranty, of course, dealt in "deeper truth" than what appears on the surface. Sure, those kulaks were starving, but Stalin was a great man, so he must be supported.

Wince said...

NYT said the quiet part out loud.

Their claims of censorship have successfully stymied the effort to filter election lies online".

"Filter election lies" implies some "election lies" are blocked, others are permeable, depending upon the viewpoint expressed?

Original Mike said...

"The media's commercial interests override their alleged journalistic interests."

You want to provide some evidence for that, or are we supposed to just accept your bald assertion? Because from where I sit, they have subsumed their commercial interests in favor of their political interests.

cubanbob said...

Here is Rich towing the party line. Tell us Rich, which trump lies? I'm sure you can be creative but do try to make the plausible and if you are truly talented, believable.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

The left only want to censor information that is critical of the left... and the left's narratives.

Why.. a short time ago we had:
-Forced jabs.
-Social Media bans on ALL who dared to question any leftist Covid Narrative.
-Punishment and cancellation of anyone on-line or otherwise, or anyone in the medial world - if they didn't tow the "GET THE JAB - OR YOU WILL DIE" line.

A little reminder of how the left operate.
Hey local leftists - tell us that isn't creepy. Ok?

After the corrupt left spread the Trump colluded with Russia lie - they then made it a thought crime to question the 2020 election. Your lying eyes, people.
You will be silenced for you thoughts and opinions - unless they line up with Crook Joe's corrupt regime.

FUCK THE LEFT.
THE COLLECTIVE PRO-CENSORSHIP left.. The collective hive-mind Putin-Castro-like extremist radical progressive woke anti-free speech left can all go fuck themselves. All of you. The corrupt Biden admin, NBC, PBS news, NPR, Joke Rolling Stone, CBS, ABC, WaPo, NYT Etc...

Wince said...

From Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English...

"That's Rich"

British English spoken used to say that what someone has said is unreasonable and that they are criticizing you for doing something that they do themselves.

JAORE said...

Over the past few years, how much "misinformation" as revealed by our governmental betters turned out to be true?

"Blood bath" being just the latest example of lies, misdirection and spin.

Freedom of speech does not just mean free to speak what one side wants to hear.

Yes, democracy (and I know this is a republic) is in danger. But the focus is on the wrong side.

Aggie said...

hawkeyedjb @ 10:27: .."If the first amendment came up for a vote in congress, it wouldn't have a chance."


It did, last week, and you're right, it didn't: 352 to 65. I dare you to use Google to try to find the bill number and read about it. Go ahead - look for it. You'll find lots of news stories about the vote, and nothing about the bill, and few will tell you its number so that you can look it up and read it yourself.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521?itid=lk_inline_enhanced-template

Ampersand said...

The current hoax raging today through the prestige media outlets on the internet, claiming that Trump is predicting a bloodbath if he's not elected, is a perfect example of how the media propagate whatever the Democratic Party wants us to believe.
BTW, what actually occurred was that Trump predicted that Biden Admin policies for EVs would lead to a bloodbath for the US auto industry.
Gee, why should Americans worry about the looming Ministry of Misinformation coming after us?
https://redstate.com/nick-arama/2024/03/17/you-know-biden-and-the-liberal-media-are-in-a-panic-with-latest-fake-story-theyre-pushing-about-trump-n2171492#google_vignette

The thing is that most of Trump's policies can actually be disputed by rational persons making more or less cogent arguments. Why is it that nobody in the MSM seems willing to try that?

Bruce Hayden said...

Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press …

Narr said...

Censors don't fear lies. They fear the truth.

Paul said...

So they are saying the 'Government' owns the 'truth'.. and if not government approved speech then it is banned. This ties in to 'hate' speech... where the government can jail you for what they think is hate speech.

If you lie on the internet.. then others have the right to EXPOSE YOUR LIE on the same internet.

See that is free discourse... you say something.. I can say something back. If a falsehood is spoken, others can expose your falsehood.

What the liberals want is GOVERNMENT do decide what is true.. and what is false. And all 'false' speech is banned. Same goes for their so-called hate speech.

Leland said...

NYT just protecting their brand. You can't claim "All the news that is fit to print" unless you are the arbiter of what is news and fit to print.

Drago said...

LLR-democratical Rich: "Trump asked Durham to investigate Mueller, and Durham found Trump crimes. Trump asked Weiss to investigate the Bidens, and Weiss found a Russian asset paid by Trump associates that lied to the FBI about the Bidens."

LOL!

Did you mistakenly post this here instead of your usual Nickelodeon message boards?

Original Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Original Mike said...

"The lack of self awareness on the part of the NYT is staggering."

I believe they are fully aware of what they're doing. The lack of awareness resides in the next level down; their readers.

Joe Smith said...

'Much more at the link, including discussion of the case to be argued tomorrow in the Supreme Court (which "accuses federal officials of colluding with or coercing the platforms to censor content critical of the government")."

And the remedy is what? The punishment is what? Who gets fined? Who gets fired? Who goes to jail.

Answer to all of the above: Nothing and nobody.

The government can violate the constitution right in front of your eyes with no consequences.

Jake said...

“ Facing legal and political blowback, the Biden administration has largely abandoned moves that might be construed as stifling political speech....”

And this is somehow not a good thing?

Leora said...

"Largely abandoned" translates to "Now concealing efforts" to suppress speech instead of running public event panels to talk about their necessity.

Rich said...

“[The current hoax raging today through the prestige media outlets on the internet, claiming that Trump is predicting a bloodbath if he's not elected]” ….

The average voter does not appreciate how crazy Trump sounds. His inability to articulate even simple concepts and to recognize reality would come as a shock to many voters. The press has never fully exposed how unhinged and discombobulated he sounds.

Jupiter said...

It is a nice idea. We would raid the NYT with about seven dozen huge, black SUVs full of clueless but athletic young assholes, who would haul the likes of Charles Blow, Maureen Dowd and David Brooks off in chains. Stick 'em in some shithole with a bunch of baby-rapers for months on end, with a bunch of "public defenders" to persuade them to confess and plead guilty to "spreading misinformation". Or better, drag 'em all over the country, from one shithole to another, so their high-priced, tall-building lawyers never even know where they are. Lock 'em up in solitary, and deny them even the most basic legal protections. Like they did to us. Like they are doing to us.

But no. I'm agin it.
Well. Maybe Dowd. I would like to read Dowd's confession. I bet it would be a classic. Chuck and Dave, not so much.

wildswan said...

Here's a question on which I would like true information, not misinformation.
Under the PAROLE program, the Biden administration is flying people from their country to this one and depositing them in large groups in US cities and towns. Here's the question? Are those people getting driver's licenses and are they signed up as voters when they get driver's licenses? In many states being signed up as a voter is automatic when one gets a driver's license. Are people being flown to those states?
The point is that with automatic voter registration and ballot harvesting those people can "be voted", as one might say. Perhaps they are being flown to red states or red counties; perhaps there is a deliberate intention to outvote citizens with non-citizens. Perhaps not. We need to know where these people are and whether the PAROLE program includes getting a driver's license or any other Government ID with a picture which can be used to register. And is it being so used? We should know this before the election.
In Florida for example, a "non-immigrant" which is the definition of a PAROLE person can get a driver's license, a REAL ID license with a Valid employment authorization card and a Social Security card. With that they can drive onto a military base or fly, although I believe in Florida they aren't automatically registered. And the PAROLE program gets these documents to the PAROLE person right away.
https://www.flhsmv.gov/driver-licenses-id-cards/what-to-bring/non-immigrant/
The PAROLE program allows 30,000 Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans a month, who would not otherwise be eligible, to come to the United States. These people can at once get permission to work and a Social Security card. They must have a sponsor and people sign up online as sponsors. I wonder how that works? I know for certain you don't have to know the people you agree to sponsor but I wonder how many PAROLEES one person can sponsor? I wonder what jobs these people are getting?

Information on Parole program site
https://www.uscis.gov/CHNV
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Appendix-2_Humanitarian-Parole-Information_ENGLISH-1.pdf

Mike Sylwester said...

Much more at the link, including discussion of the case to be argued tomorrow in the Supreme Court (which "accuses federal officials of colluding with or coercing the platforms to censor content critical of the government")

This sentence confuses me:

The discussion accuses federal officials?

... or ...

The case to be argued accuses federal officials?

... or ...

The Supreme Court accuses federal officials?

Rich said...

Quite simply people do not want truth or quality information. They don't want to have to think or to form opinions for themselves and wouldn't have time to if they did.

I go out of my way to source information and opinion from a variety of quality sources and it is hard work when looking at, for example, ExTwitter and constantly being buffeted with bad culture war opinion pieces and pointlessly contrarian articles. It's just not really that fun to read things you disagree with or that contradict the world as you believe it to be. Especially when faced with the impotence of the non-participating consumer of information or when downvoted into oblivion for a questioning comment.

So instead people prefer to either stick to their bubbles or engage only in shallow debates about relatively trivial matters where the dividing lines are much clearer and "their side" has already pre-packaged the reasoning for them.

We also have the problem of a shallow intellectual culture where skepticism and a "trust no one, question everything" narrative prevails (which is good) but no one actually does the next part of reaching and trusting rational conclusions. So people, rightly being skeptical, are overloaded with information, confused and just opt not to believe in anything or grasp for easy-reasoning conspiracy theories that attribute all ills and chaos to some sort of elite or malevolent forces.

The unfortunate truth at the core of the whole debate is that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and many people on this earth are simply incapable of retaining or processing enough information to render it safe. The enlightenment assumption of man's innate rationality has proven to be flawed — we only have a capacity for reason but a strong tendency to irrationality.

And the worst part of it all is that intelligent men like Musk, Thiel and (yes... in a way) Trump abuse the ignorance of the masses who they know are incapable of dealing with all this information. They trick them with the "free speech" narrative to ultimately and cynically ensure that their information and the Musk/Trump version of reality prevails.

Even half-smart people are sensible enough to realize that some of what they are told (by either side) is baloney and therefore lose faith in all information. In this mess of chaos and confusion and information overload they retreat into safe information bubbles that confirm their biases and, if not ignoring it, reach out for strongmen to suppress the uncomfortable information. ...And we're all so comfortable in the West it's not like any of it really matters anyway.

FWIW: The Economist had a piece by the former NYTimes editor on what went wrong there. Long but worth reading. I felt it was a little self-pitying, but there are valuable lessons gleaned from the recent controversies.
https://www.economist.com/1843/2023/12/14/when-the-new-york-times-lost-its-way

Darkisland said...

dare you to use Google to try to find the bill number and read about it

Do not use Google for anything. If congress wants to ban stuff, they should start with Google search and Chrome on any government owned devices.

I found a link to the bill easily using duck duck go.

Google did not develop Chrome. They took an existing open source browser, added Spyware w that would make tiktok blush and slapped their name on it.

Dragon and Brave are 2 implementations identical to chrome without the Spyware. They even run all the chrome extensions and themes.

Friends don't let friends use Google.

John Henry

Howard said...

What's wrong with fact checking?

loudogblog said...

Apparently, if the propaganda works on you, you don't notice it. I know that both sides do it, but they only see the disinformation that the other side puts out.

Just look at that story today about Trump saying there would be a "bloodbath." Most of the media ran with the narrative that Trump was talking about the whole country if he wasn't elected. It turns out that Trump was specifically saying that there would be a bloodbath in the auto industry because of the push for EVs. Even the Biden campaign repeated this lie on their Twitter/X feed.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

my anger grows each day with the left's lies.

someone I know - told me how his granddaughter was born with a hole in her diaphragm and her major organs all shoved up inside near her heart. The team of doctors at Children's hospital were able to save her - after some 78 days in the hospital. this poor baby was born and rushed straight to surgery. He showed me the photos.

the baby's mother was a school teacher and she was forced to get the covid jabs. The doctors said that the covid shot is why the baby was born with heart and organ defects.

yep. that is what the doctors said.

I sure hope those amazing life-saving doctors don't get arrested by Biden's FBI-CIA Castro-like goon squad.

Dude1394 said...

Lies we can deal with, threatening people for speaking is untenable.

Darkisland said...

Journa.host is a Mastodon instance for journalists who felt they needed to flee the National Socialist of X when Elon bought it.

Dedicated to free speech and truth, though one of the founders lies about her gender.

I requested to join, submitted my cv with links and was accepted.

I lasted about 3 weeks. I pointed out that Brandon had his skull off twice and that Hilary had a stroke. NYT links to both. NYT never used the dreaded "S" word of course.

Impermissible speech, they called it. Hilarious is what I call it.

Not sure if I am supposed to be able to but I can still read it, I just can't post.

I sometimes so because I enjoy seeing journalists out themselves as batshit crazy fascists.

John Henry

RCOCEAN II said...

Wow, another one of these weird MSM articles whereby if Biden does something Unpopular or wrong or whatever, the MSM wont call it that. Instead, they will write "Republicans say Biden is doing X and censoring speech". They will always cast any criticism of Biden or some Democat position as partisan. Its just something those Nasty R's or those "Rightwing extremists" are "charging". No fact checks please!

Meanwhile, the MSM has no problem saying straightout that "Repubicans are doing X and its BAD".

And I don't have fucking clue what "disinformation" is, PRECISELY. Or what a "Conspiracy theory" is or is not. The MSM and the liberal/left throw these words around to justify censorship, or to avoid a debate on the facts. I wish conservatives would just stop using the words. But y'know, they aren't very smart, and always adopt the language of their enemies.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Biden's family - while Biden was VP - profited off Ukrainian grifting.

The left want you to think this is dis-information.

The left are so Castro-like- they impeached Trump for asking about Biden's Ukrainian corruption.

Darkisland said...

Last week a journalist with a National publication said we need to shun anyone who iwb a tesla truck.

Anyone who purchased a tesla product after Elon bought Twitter is a National Socialist (he called them nazi) not a sympathizer or just apathetic, but an actual, literal, ns and must not only be shunned but called out and ostracized. Nobody disagreed.

These are your media. Fake news is the least of the problems

John Henry

Darkisland said...

Two great books I read last year.

"The powers that be" based on a commenters recommendation. David Halberstam, 1976. A deep dive into NYT, WaPo, LA times and cbs. There is nothing new in the way the news is run today.

Halberstam is always an excellent read.

John Henry

)

Freder Frederson said...

See that is free discourse... you say something.. I can say something back. If a falsehood is spoken, others can expose your falsehood.

If you continually repeat the same lies over and over again, how is that in any way advancing freedom of speech. Say you are a flat earther, how am I supposed to make you see that your position is ridiculous, when you refuse to accept basic facts and undeniable proof? How many times can you repeat that the 2020 election was stolen (with up to 20 million votes stolen), when you have no proof?

Joe Bar said...

Who is REALLY doing the misinformation/disinformation? The twisting of the "bloodbath" comment shows that the media are not our friends.

Darkisland said...

The other was "Citizens of London". Lynne Olsen recent but don't know year

It was about Edward murrow and the other "American" journalists in London pre 1942 and how they worked their asses off to propagandize Americans to push us into the European war.

Excellent and highly readable.

Saint Ed is often held up as a paragon of objective journalism.

Bullshit

John Henry

Mason G said...

"What the liberals want is GOVERNMENT do decide what is true.. and what is false. And all 'false' speech is banned. Same goes for their so-called hate speech."

Somewhat OT but still related, there's currently a thread on The Manhattan Contrarian blog discussing the situation in Haiti. Some posters have brought the topic of "IQ" and "race" into the discussion and other posters are arguing they should have the ability to have those comments blocked, or that the blog owner should do that for them.

Rusty said...

Howard said...
"What's wrong with fact checking?"
Nothing. But first you have to know what a "fact" is before you can check it. You progressive types seem to be lagging in that area.

Yancey Ward said...

"If you continually repeat the same lies over and over again, how is that in any way advancing freedom of speech. Say you are a flat earther, how am I supposed to make you see that your position is ridiculous, when you refuse to accept basic facts and undeniable proof?"

So, the alternative is preventing the flat-earther from speaking of his beliefs? Really, Freder????

I note for the record your category error comparing a flat earth theory with those that believe the 2020 election was fraudulent. Where are your iron-clad proof showing the absolute certitude that the 2020 election wasn't stolen by the Democrats? Censoring the speech of people you don't agree with, even if you are in fact correct, is the act of a fascist, Freder. Heil Biden.

Original Mike said...

"Say you are a flat earther, how am I supposed to make you see that your position is ridiculous, "

In a situation like that, you walk away. But you're incapable of doing that, aren't you? You're always right, and it's imperative that everyone acknowledge that.

Cassandra said...



I don't suppose they would advocate overruling New York Times v. Sullivan. Just another whose ox case.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

the fierce debate over free speech and the government’s role in policing content

There is no debate. The government absolutely does not have a “role in policing content.” Full stop. That an alleged journalist could write such a sentence like that and not see the problem is stunning. Or would be stunning if Times writers had not morphed into partisan hack scolds along with every “mainstream” news outlet. They have created a religion out of their exceptions to the First Amendment and want so badly to silence any dissent from the Party line.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Rich -

Define TRUTH.

I'll help you - A: Anything that lines up with leftist/democrat party narratives.
right?

Drago said...

From Konstantin Kisin: "I see the mainstream media are lying about Trump and clipping him out of context again.

It's amazing how used they are to having a monopoly on information that even now when their lies are guaranteed to be immediately debunked they carry on anyway.

Pure arrogance."

Which explains LLR-democratical Rich and Field Marshall Freder and Howitzer Howard et al, at Althouse blog as well.

Drago said...

Field Marshall Freder: "If you continually repeat the same lies over and over..."

Don't you have a Jussie Smollett fundraiser to attend?

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

NBC Rich - - what debate?

The debate from the left (not a debate - A diktat! ) is any and all information not vetted and approved by leftists = disinformation. that's it. After you leftists determine "disinformation" is at play - you rush in to condemn and cancel. In unison. (over and over... until you think you've actually manufactured some sort of truth out of your deception and manipulations)

Again - as you just proved - anyone speaking in terms that do not delight the left - will be tarnished and canceled.

See Musk and Theil - in your lame excuse for debate above.

Gospace said...

"The laptop is Russian disinformation and doesn't belong to Hunter." is a false statement that was allowed on social media, and approved by The Government. And 51 former intelligence officials- bearing the government's imprimatur.

And the odds of more lies being official truth with government regulation is, well. inevitable.

We would be in old Soviet territory- "In Pravda there is no truth, in Izvestia there is no news."

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

The only thing left to do now is to tell the corrupt left to go fuck themselves.

Iman said...

As if the NYT has EVER been concerned about spreading lies and disinformation.

These people do it daily, without shame.

Iman said...

Rich rides “bitch” and is, most amusingly, our bitch.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Hey NBC Rich - tell us who should be canceled for their speech. You know -those people who are not properly in line with the corruptocratic party. Those bad people who go against the Nazi-left and who should be silenced. ... because they spread DISINFORMATION!

Make a list.

Mr. T. said...

"Academic research" is an automatic red flag.

This is the same NYT that listened to a Group of 88 "academics" and so bungled the Duke story it cost (unofficially) Duff Wilson and Selena Roberts their jobs.

Mr. T. said...

"Academic research" is an automatic red flag.

This is the same NYT that listened to a Group of 88 "academics" and so bungled the Duke story it cost (unofficially) Duff Wilson and Selena Roberts their jobs.

Joe Smith said...

'I go out of my way to source information and opinion from a variety of quality sources...'

And yet, you unfailingly take the ultra-liberal side of every single issue. You get your talking points from 'Morning Joe' and you spew that low-IQ drivel everywhere you can.

You are a puppet. A tool. And that's with all due respect to puppets and tools.

Big Mike said...

Howard asks:

What's wrong with fact checking?

@Howard, nothing wrong with it provided (1) they use real facts, not their personal opinions treated as “factual,” and (2) they knock it off with their penchant for saying that things they admit are true are somehow partially false because the fact checker claims that the true statement is, in their estimation, somehow misleading (in other words, true but they wish it wasn’t). It would help their credibility if (3) they fact-checked Democrats as vigorous as they fact check conservatives.

I’m reminded of the story of the Bishop who told the teenagers that it was okay to sleep together before marriage — “as long as all you do is sleep.” Fact-checking is good, provided they stick to facts.

Breezy said...

“How many times can you repeat that the 2020 election was stolen (with up to 20 million votes stolen), when you have no proof?”

Don’t forget its counterpoint!

“How many times can you repeat that the 2020 election was NOT stolen (and Joe Biden legit getting 20 million more votes than Obama), when you have no proof?”

So, you’re right - no proof! There’s no proof either way. It will forever be an unknown “fact” because the legal challenges to find out the truth were all shut down. We all have to live with that now, believing what we choose to believe about it. And we all have to allow everyone their own belief because the truth of it is unknowable, sprinkled in the wind. Reap what sown.

No one should be accused lying if the truth is unknown.

effinayright said...

Rich said...
“[The current hoax raging today through the prestige media outlets on the internet, claiming that Trump is predicting a bloodbath if he's not elected]” ….

The average voter does not appreciate how crazy Trump sounds. His inability to articulate even simple concepts and to recognize reality would come as a shock to many voters. The press has never fully exposed how unhinged and discombobulated he sounds."
*************************

So, go ahead, Genius: YOU 'splain it . YOU "fully expose" Trump. YOU tell us why average voters are dull-witted dupes.

I'm betting you don't even try.

Original Mike said...

"It's amazing how used they are to having a monopoly on information that even now when their lies are guaranteed to be immediately debunked they carry on anyway."

Remember who their audience is; their bubble-inhabiting readers, who will never see the truth.

Mason G said...

""Academic research" is an automatic red flag."

Anymore, whenever I read "academic research", in my mind I hear "Experts say" and "The Science".

Jupiter said...

You had me at "It's sad to see the NYT". But then you spoiled it.

Big Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JAORE said...

Whenever I see a fact free post like this:

"Trump asked Durham to investigate Mueller, and Durham found Trump crimes. Trump asked Weiss to investigate the Bidens, and Weiss found a Russian asset paid by Trump associates that lied to the FBI about the Bidens."

I think to myself, "That's rich" and laugh.

Maynard said...

What's wrong with fact checking?

After the Kavanaugh hearings, I thought liberals started believing in "her truth". How can cisgendered White males fact check the truth of oppressed people?

Drago said...

Over-compensating Non-combat "vet" Howitzr Howard: "What's wrong with fact checking?"

What is a woman?

Narr said...

The Blob will create a desert, and call it Truth.

Drago said...

FYI, the lefties/LLR-lefties are now claiming their latest "bloodbath" hoax lies are actually true because it lines up with previous lefty/LLR-lefty hoax lies such as the "fine people" hoax lie!!!!

LOL

Layers and layers of Pelosi-defined "wrap-up smears".

Unfortunately for our feeble lefties, its not 2016 anymore and the only people buying into the lies are the people, like Freder, that bought into all the other lies and cannot ever be freed from their cult thinking.

James K said...

How many times can you repeat that the 2020 election was stolen (with up to 20 million votes stolen), when you have no proof?

The NYT and people like Frederson have peculiar (false) definitions of the words "false" and "lies." They bandy those words around like school kids, applying them to statements that are neither false (provably incorrect) nor lies (both provably incorrect and known to be so by the speaker). Stating that the 2020 election was stolen is neither false nor a lie. It's unknown and probably unknowable, so statements about it one way or the other are just opinions based on whatever available evidence is out there.

Michael K said...

What is really odd is how many conspiracy theories turn out to be true.

Remember "The Great Barrington Declaration" was denounced by 100 Stanford faculty members as a conspiracy theory. The Chinese origin of Covid, the Russia Hoax.

Big Mike said...

This is a good place to discuss the Great Barrington Declaration. I see that Wikipedia still petulantly describes it as “fringe,” however Sunetra Gupta, Jay Battacharya, and Martin Kulldorff are genuine experts, not bureaucrats like Francis Collins, Deborah Birx, Anthony Fauci, and Rochelle Walensky, who are good only at spreading bullshit, backstabbing, taking credit for other people’s work, and stepping on anyone they need to step on to climb the bureaucratic ladder, etc., etc. In retrospect we now know that the Declaration was right (see Sweden), the “consensus”* in favor of universal lockdowns was wrong — and as a country we are still trying to climb back out of the hole we put ourselves into. Basically, being right cost Kulldorff his tenured professorship at Harvard (interesting to see that Harvard prefers its scientists to be scientifically wrong).

________
* Except that there was never a genuine consensus in favor of lockdowns. News outlets like the Times, supporting censorship efforts by the Deep State, simply shut down discussion of alternatives.

Drago said...

"51 former intelligence officials sign a letter saying Trump's "bloodbath" remark was an endorsement of political violence"--Zerohedge

Jim at said...

What's wrong with fact checking?

Who factchecks the factcheckers?

Jim at said...

How many times can you repeat that the 2020 election was stolen (with up to 20 million votes stolen), when you have no proof?

As many times as I fucking want to. That's how many.

Gospace said...

Anyone remember the absolutely genuine Air National Guard document vetted by our most trusted names in the news media that was revealed to be totally fabricated by some blogger working out of his basement in pajamas? You know, the document that perfectly aligned with a Word document, including a font that hadn't yet been developed. With proportional spacing and perfect centering? And none of the professionals in the media, or their interns, or editors, or anyone involved in disseminating this absolutely false piece of garbage knew enough about technology and history to go Uh, let's hold off a moment. There's something not quite kosher about this...?

And the lengths to which some leftists went to explain how some backwater ANG office could have used some state of the art ultra expensive typesetting machines to write routine memos?

Pepperidge Farm remembers. As do I.

Kinda makes me wonder how much else was fabricated news before pajama wearing bloggers in basements were able to bypass the gatekeepers of Official Truth.

Mason G said...

"In retrospect we now know that the Declaration was right (see Sweden), the “consensus”* in favor of universal lockdowns was wrong..."

and the people who badmouthed the Declaration, pushed for lockdowns and punishing people for not getting the non-vaccinating shot are now saying "Nobody really knew what was going on at the time and can't we just pretend that none of the fascist stuff we supported ever really happened?"

Yeah, no.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Gotta hear this Free Speech!

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2024/03/17/the-most-non-pretending-and-brutally-honest-video-so-far-this-year/#more-256543

Mason G said...

How many times can you repeat that there is no proof that the 2020 election was stolen when you refuse to look at it when it's offered? Closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "Lalalalalalala I'm not listening" doesn't make it go away, you know.

Darkisland said...


As many times as I fucking want to. That's how many.

Amen, Jim. Amen. Preach it brother.

John Henry

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Remember- only leftists get to determine what "facts" are.

with this one neat trick.

Darkisland said...


Drago said...
Over-compensating Non-combat "vet" Howitzr Howard:

Are you a vet, Drago?

Howard may be an eminently mock able asshole but he is an ex-Marine. (some say there is no such thing as an "ex" marine.) I think he is too young to have been drafted but it doesn't matter if he was.

He served. The quality and conditions of his service should not be mocked.

If he had served in combat, would you mock him for not being wounded? If he had been wounded, would you mock him for not being maimed? If maimed, for not being dead?

Mock Howard all you want. He deserves it most of the time. But not this. This crosses the line.

I think you owe Howard an apology.

John Henry

Darkisland said...

Heidi li Feldman is a prof of law at Georgetown u. Not a journalist but somehow admitted to journa.host

Earlier today she posted this:

Trump uses language like a paintbrush, to create a tone and a mood - a very dangerous tone and mood. Parsing the grammar of his remarks to see whether he’s speaking about one industry or more generally is a mug’s game. This is the same old dog whistling he always engages in - his base knows he’s threatening violence, we in the resistance know he’s threatening violence. Meanwhile the MSM plays his game.

Sounds like she is saying truth doesn't matter when you can get a good hoax cranked up.

John Henry

Drago said...

John Henry: ""I think you owe Howard an apology."

I am holding Howitzer Howard to the standards he has set when speaking of conservative/republican vets.

Perhaps you should take a moment to investigate that more fully to understand the context of the back and forth.

In any event, I could not care less what you think I "owe" Howitzer Howard.

gspencer said...

"the fierce debate over free speech and the government’s role in policing content"

Late-breaking news. This just in - Government has NO role in policing content.

Details at 11.

wendybar said...

Here you go Rich.... Listen to how crazy all the Progressives sound. Their inability to articulate even simple concepts and to recognize reality would come as a shock to many viewers. The American people know how unhinged and discombobulated the media sounds.




https://twitter.com/i/status/1769455728941547695

Narayanan said...

“Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press …”
=================
how to interpret this wording?
speech is possible to individual -> may need mikes or megaphones
what about press? -> simply writing and publishing by individuals or undertaken as commercial activities?

printing machines existed; quills and ink existed; typewriters yet to be invented

Greg the Class Traitor said...

"How Trump’s Allies Are Winning the War Over Disinformation/Their claims of censorship have successfully stymied the effort to filter election lies online" (NYT)(free access link).

No, they're stymieing Democrats attempts to suppress the truth and push lies. See: Hunter Biden's laptop

Academic researchers wrestled with how to strengthen efforts to monitor false posts.
You mean: sleazy scumbag propagandists wrestled with how to strengthen efforts to suppress the truth and push their vile political agenda.
Because if their agenda wasn't vile crap, they wouldn't have to suppress free speech in order to push it

Mr. Trump and his allies embarked instead on a counteroffensive, a coordinated effort to block what they viewed as a dangerous effort to censor conservatives....

That's because that's all it is.

Waged in the courts, in Congress and in the seething precincts of the internet, that effort has eviscerated attempts to shield elections from disinformation in the social media era.
Gosh, you mean like:
Claims that Republicans are engaged in "voter suppression" when they enact basic anti-fraud measures?
No, they like that lie.
Oh, you mean like claims that Trump "colluded" with Putin to with the 2016 election?
No, they like that lie
Oh, you mean like the claim that Hunter Biden's laptop was "Russian disinformation"
No, they pushed that lie, too
Oh, you mean like all the lies Adam Schiff told, claiming he had classified information about Trump's crimes. ALL of which turned out to be lies
No, they liked that, too.

Shall I continue on?

Greg the Class Traitor said...

It tapped into — and then, critics say, twisted — the fierce debate over free speech and the government’s role in policing content....

No US State government, nor the Federal Gov't has the slightest role in "policing content", other than maintaining a court system where people can sue for libel.

Facing legal and political blowback, the Biden administration has largely abandoned moves that might be construed as stifling political speech.... Social media platforms now provide fewer checks against the intentional spread of lies about elections....

They've never contained a single check against the left's intentional spread of lies about elections, which is why they have NO role in
blocking disinformation."

Big Mike said...

And then Matt Taibbi weighs in.

effinayright said...

Mason G said...
How many times can you repeat that there is no proof that the 2020 election was stolen when you refuse to look at it when it's offered? Closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "Lalalalalalala I'm not listening" doesn't make it go away, you know.
************

Cretins like freder always coonfuse "proof" with "evidence".

Thre's evidence aplenty, in numerous states, but not enough SO FAR that we can conclude--by looking at a preponderance of it---the election was successfully rigged.

Rusty said...

Breezy said...@ 2:02
Biden admitted in public that he stole the election.

Bruce Hayden said...

“How many times can you repeat that there is no proof that the 2020 election was stolen when you refuse to look at it when it's offered? Closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "Lalalalalalala I'm not listening" doesn't make it go away, you know.”

Interestingly, as we head into the 2024 election, we are finally seeing traction on the 2020 election had been stolen. At a minimum, AZ, GA, and probably MI, have had evidence surface, in court, that the margin of victory was far below the level of questionable votes and ballots. Facts such that counties counted more votes than adults in multiple counties. No signature verification. Etc.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

We are all shocked, shocked to discover the NYT was making shit up, again:

https://www.racket.news/p/on-todays-absurd-new-york-times-hit?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1042&post_id=142693402&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=false&r=9bg2k&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email

wendybar said...

Molly Ball told us exactly what the left did to the right for the 2020 election, and brags about it. We all know exactly what the left is doing, and hoaxes and lies aren't going to change our minds.

GRW3 said...

You have to understand what a word means in context. You can't just go to Webster's as that typically has the standard non-political definition. In fact, in this discussion here is the key word and the progressive definition:

LIE - any statement of belief or position that contradicts the Progressive orthodoxy, regardless of factual basis and/or actual experience.

That's what they mean when they say "lie" but they want you to believe it's the standard definition of saying an untruth.

Rocco said...

Darkisland said...
"Journa.host is a Mastodon instance for journalists who felt they needed to flee the National Socialist of X when Elon bought it."

So to complete the Nazi analogy, Journa.host is basically Peron's Argentina. Where the press was an arm of the state.

Rocco said...

Darkisland said...
"Journa.host is a Mastodon instance for journalists who felt they needed to flee the National Socialist of X when Elon bought it."

So to complete the Nazi analogy, Journa.host is basically Peron's Argentina. Where the press was an arm of the state.

ccscientist said...

It is pretty rich, the gov, which lies constantly, trying to prevent lies. Where do we go to prevent lies about trump (e.g., Russia Russia russia) or about covid?