"The word negotiate is a courageous word. When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate."
Said Pope Francis, quoted in "Pope says Ukraine should have 'courage of the white flag' of negotiations" (Reuters).
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51 comments:
Ukraine's strongest negotiating position was 2 or 3 months after the initial invasion when Russian advances were more/less stymied. Basically suing for peace is still the best option, but as long as the west keeps feeding arms to Ukraine, the Ukrainians will fight on, gradually losing more territory and personnel. Quickest way to end it is to turn of the arms supply spigot. Putin is 100% committed to this and the west not so much.
The Peace Movement begins!
He's not wrong.
There are really only two ways to end a war--negotiate a "peace", or total annihilation of one side by the other.
What is the end game in Ukraine?
Francis is an idiot and the sooner he dies and starts his eternity in Hell, the better.
The Pope favors violence, which is what the other side uses. The point is to raise the cost of continuing to more than they'd lose by negotiating, but it applies to both sides.
boatbuilder said...
only two ways to end a war--negotiate a "peace", or total annihilation of one side by the other
What is the end game in Ukraine?
it's Hard to Imagine, that Even the Nazi's in the Ukraine (or, the ones in DC) think they'll be able to annihilate russia.. Which which brings us back, to boatbuilder's question
What is the end game in Ukraine?
It seems likely, that The Ukraine will collapse, and when it does, there'll be a hostile russia on the borders of NATO. Maybe THAT was Biden's plan; but i doubt that they thought the russia borders would be that far west.
Ukrainian border guards caught 34 men of conscription age attempting to flee from Ukraine. Each of them paid €10,000 to escape the meat grinder. Ukraine is now the largest prison state in the world.
So the pope is another surrender monkey.
"Pope says Ukraine should have 'courage of the white flag' of negotiations."
I agree. So should Hamas.
When a communist atheist says 'sue for peace' in a Russian conflict, you can pretty much disregard it, even if he's right. The US and NATO should have been guiding Ukraine toward peace talks better than a year ago, but Victoria Nuland still thought she could pull it off, the signature accomplishment she started a decade ago. She's slunk off now, to leave the messy cleanup to others, in typical neocon fashion.
When you see that you are defeated...
Isn't that a bit late in the game to negotiate? I mean you can try, but you'll most likely get laughed at.
I wrote it over two years ago now- if the West was never going to put boots on the ground and planes in the air in Ukraine, all our weapons would still lead to the Ukrainians losing in the end- the Russians wouldn't give up even if it took them 5+ years to win. Even Ukraine's men understand this which is why a large majority of the military capable age groups refuse to enlist and/or flee the country to escape conscription and death. The only thing that I have changed my opinion on in the last two years is that I no longer think NATO troops would have made much of a difference- our weapon systems don't seem particularly useful on the battlefield- too expensive and vulnerable and not easily replaced in a high intensity battle against a peer level opponent- the Russians aren't goat herders.
Francis may not be aware that Ukraine is an Orthodox Christian nation and that his title carries no weight there. He's a usurper, as far as the Orthodox are concerned. The man also has a strange sense of justice and morality.
Obama was against providing arms to Ukraine and wanted better relations with Russia. Putin is 71 has been in power for a long time and this seems more like 1963 Vietnam than 1938 Czechoslovakia. In the past, the US has fought against Russian/Communist aggression in Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan, with civilian loses of c. 2 million in each country, along with 2 million or so military personnel. And the result, arguably, was a tie and two loses. Although I suspect South Korean enjoy their tie.
Not sure what the difference is between rule by Putin or Zelenskyy. Is it better or worse than rule by Trump or Biden and is it worth the loss of life of civilians?
Zelensky and Biden have no interest in peace. Lots of grift to be done.
The Pope's remarks actually seem to have been directed at both countries, and the press is spinning them as a message only to Ukraine. Russia has lost a staggering number of men, and it had been completely unable to advance for a long time now. Russia couldn't even conquer Kharkiv, 20 miles from its own border.
Everyone likes to pretend that there's some peace deal on the table that Ukraine is failing to take, but the Ukrainians have to deal with the reality that the Russians have shown no inclination toward peace. The problem for Putin is that if he agrees to negotiate, it will look like failure, and then his own life is on the line.
It would have been better for the world had negotiations taken place much earlier, when Russia was struggling.
But the hubris of Biden foreign policy establishment instilled grand ambitions.
Now we understand why the took Victor out of Toria Nuland's first name.
At this point in the war, I wonder what the Ukrainian people really think about their situation. Real polling is probably impossible. If a Ukrainian citizen dares post anti-Zelensky stuff on the internet, they might find themselves in prison (kind of like Douglass Mackey, also known as "Ricky Vaughn," here in the U.S.).
Questions for the Pope:
How many Catholic saints were martyrs?
Why does the Church venerate them?
Did they routinely negotiate with their tormentors?
discuss advise Ukraine after Year +1; wait for Gaza?
Gene is obviously not aware that many Ukrainians, especially in the western parts, are Eastern Rite Catholics--they retain Orthodox liturgy and practices (i.e. low-level clergy can marry) but their shaman is the pope in Rome.
I understand the Pope is attempting to stay "neutral", but this is an example of ideological shortsightedness. Negotiations to give a hostile invader territory it doesn't deserve, and control over the people living there who don't want Russian control?
What Francis is saying here is that the Russians should be rewarded for invading a sovereign country.
It is my understanding that this is a war of choice for Putin. He is free to withdraw and end his war against Ukraine. Too bad the pontiff does do what’s best for the victims. Pope Francis should put his own house in order and resist the temptation to make vapid, uninformed comments on international issues.
COLLINS: Mr. President, can I follow up on that? That's an important statement you made. Can you say if you want Ukraine or Russia to win this war?
TRUMP: I want everybody to stop dying. They're dying. Russians and Ukrainians. I want them to stop dying. And I'll have that done in 24 hours I'll have it done. You need the power of the presidency to do it.
Ukraine is a defacto dictatorship. Zelenksy is the mob boss. He hasn't held elections and censors the press. Churches that disagree get shut down. Dissidents are put in jail. So, the question is: Does Zelensky want to negotiate?
Answer: Only if Biden and his Western Backers want him to. Zelensky has mansions in Miami and Southern France. And probably 2-3 passports. NATO countries have given Zelensky hundreds of billions not just for weapons, but to keep their GOvernment running and even paying pension.
How much of that 200-300 billion has ended up in Zelensky's bank accounts.
Biden insanely says "I won't bow down to Putin" which means No negotitions. I'm afraid this war will only end when Zelensky is deposed and a new Ukrainian Government negotiates peace - on Russian terms. Russian has the Crimea and most of the Donbas. Its incorporated them into Russia and the people there have been given Russian citizenship. Russia has them, and they're not going back.
And from a USA standpoint, who cares? Thats what makes Biden's position so insane and criminal. THis has nothing to do with us. And doesn't affect our security. But 'muricans love war and playing "risk" with other people's lives.
Ukraine is a defacto dictatorship. Zelenksy is the mob boss. He hasn't held elections and censors the press. Churches that disagree get shut down. Dissidents are put in jail. So, the question is: Does Zelensky want to negotiate?
Answer: Only if Biden and his Western Backers want him to. Zelensky has mansions in Miami and Southern France. And probably 2-3 passports. NATO countries have given Zelensky hundreds of billions not just for weapons, but to keep their GOvernment running and even paying pension.
How much of that 200-300 billion has ended up in Zelensky's bank accounts.
Biden insanely says "I won't bow down to Putin" which means No negotitions. I'm afraid this war will only end when Zelensky is deposed and a new Ukrainian Government negotiates peace - on Russian terms. Russian has the Crimea and most of the Donbas. Its incorporated them into Russia and the people there have been given Russian citizenship. Russia has them, and they're not going back.
And from a USA standpoint, who cares? Thats what makes Biden's position so insane and criminal. THis has nothing to do with us. And doesn't affect our security. But 'muricans love war and playing "risk" with other people's lives.
Ukraine is a defacto dictatorship. Zelenksy is the mob boss. He hasn't held elections and censors the press. Churches that disagree get shut down. Dissidents are put in jail. So, the question is: Does Zelensky want to negotiate?
Answer: Only if Biden and his Western Backers want him to. Zelensky has mansions in Miami and Southern France. And probably 2-3 passports. NATO countries have given Zelensky hundreds of billions not just for weapons, but to keep their GOvernment running and even paying pension.
How much of that 200-300 billion has ended up in Zelensky's bank accounts.
Biden insanely says "I won't bow down to Putin" which means No negotitions. I'm afraid this war will only end when Zelensky is deposed and a new Ukrainian Government negotiates peace - on Russian terms. Russian has the Crimea and most of the Donbas. Its incorporated them into Russia and the people there have been given Russian citizenship. Russia has them, and they're not going back.
And from a USA standpoint, who cares? Thats what makes Biden's position so insane and criminal. THis has nothing to do with us. And doesn't affect our security. But 'muricans love war and playing "risk" with other people's lives.
BTW, its not 'muricans. The British and French elites are champing at the bit to start WW III. Macron and whats his name in England want to march on Moscow. They "Wont bow down to putin" either. Of course, what makes that so absurd, is thier small armies and airforces wouldn't make a dent in the Russian lines.
In fact, if the british army invaded Russia, Putin would have it arrested.
For once, I agree with him. The war's over, Ukraine lost, make a deal. At this point, it's not war anymore, it's mass murder and nihilistic destruction.
Good on you, your holiness. Perhaps the Vatican would like to fund this fiasco.
So, taking Pope F as the prog weather vane he is, might the left be turning on Ukraine? All white, led by a Jew, Israel-supported, fighting against a Hamas ally--when you think about it, Ukraine is not a natural prog priority. It might help if they put some of their old proper Jew haters in charge.
I don't care enough about Ukraine to send any of my military age kids over there to fight for it.
I don't care enough about Ukraine to send any of my hard earned money over there to fight for it.
The 1st statement is absolute.
The second statement is true insofar is that the people who have the most to lose from an aggressive Russia aren't all that fired up about it- there are no Germans or French or Italians serving alongside the Ukrainian troops, and even their financial contributions are not impressive.
As the Bee stated, the people at Raytheon are the ones who in mourning due to Nikki's crash and burn this week.
Ukrainians lost in 2014. The Slavic Spring has cost millions of lives, viable lives, for nothing, for less than nothing. Net-Zero human lives, indeed.
1/2 of Ukraine lost. The other 1/2 of Ukraine lost. All in a bid to overthrow an election that was certified by independent inspectors from the EU et al. Starve the people in Crimea. Force the people in East Ukraine to their knees. In a Slavic Spring.
There was once a Pope Hilarius
Aptly named
And I'm Roman Catholic. Sometimes Id say "Mom, I dont think I can go to church today, I have a tummy ache". I couldnt use that too often.
Then I would crank up the TV and watch a Jewish kids show called The Magic Door. I didnt know it was even religious. What else is on Sunday mornings way back when? Notre Dame football highlights sometimes.
Theyed get back from church and shortly after a miracle would happen and my tummy ache was gone, but I had to be patient with that too.
I had future tummy aches to look forward to.
I have had stomach problems since
If Ukraine's idea of winning is that they will retake their eastern regions, along with Crimea, and expel all Russians from their country at this point it looks like an impossible wish. This doesn't mean Ukraine was wrong to defend itself against Russia for Russia's unjustified invasion. Because it is impossible to know or definitively predict how a war will play out until it has actually started and played out to some degree. But at this point in the war after 2 years of fighting, especially after the last year of little to no change on either side, it looks like there is no way for Ukraine to achieve it's goals. Zelensky and the Ukrainian generals need to consider the cost of more Ukrainian lives. Wasting Ukrainian lives for an impossibility is a mistake. How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?
"Zelensky has mansions in Miami and Southern France."
I read he just bought one in Egypt. He really likes houses. Glad we could help.
Negotiate?
Are you kidding?
There's still far too much money to be laundered...
Translation: The Pope is asking for a piece of the action?
Butkus, I loved The Magic Door! It also took me a long time to realize it was Jewish.
“A rum-zum-zum, a rum-zum-zum, gilly gilly gilly gilly gilly ah-sah-sah!”
Write to “The Magic Door, WBBM-TV, Chicago, Ill-ih-noyyyoy, Chicago, Illinois. Six-oh-six-one-one!!”
I also liked Marshall Efron’s Simplified, Illustrated and Painless Sunday School.
JSM
Looks like the Pope threw away any remaining reputation he had for decency and intelligence in vain: "Russian state TV host Vladimir Solovyov berated Pope Francis for 'sticking his nose where it does not belong' and suggesting negotiations. Solovyov said that Russia has no interest in negotiations and does not recognize the Pope as a spiritual leader." (link)
As for the military situation, the front lines haven't changed much in the last year or so, but Ukraine has not only been slaughtering Russians and destroying Russian equipment in vast numbers, they been doing very well in the air and at sea. They shot down two A-50 (~AWACS) planes this year, and probably nailed another when they hit the facility that repairs them in Taganrog yesterday. Russia only had 7 at most to start with. And Ukraine shot down 12 Su-34 fighter-bombers and 2 Su-35 fighters in the last two weeks of February.
As for the sea, Russia's Black Sea blockade has utterly failed, as Ukraine has sunk nearly half the Black Sea Fleet. Grain exports from Odesa are near pre-war levels. (Ironic that a nation without a navy has been able to keep the Odessa-Bosporus sea lanes open with sea-drones while the U.S. and all its allies can't keep the Red Sea open and safe from Houthi missiles.) Not only have they opened the Black Sea to their own traffic, they're starting to close it to Russian traffic. Naval News (link) reports that two Russian ships bringing arms from Syria recently reversed course in the Bosporus and went to take the long way around to the Baltic.
By the way, it is not true that "there are no Germans or French or Italians serving alongside the Ukrainian troops". Total numbers serving in the International Legion are not published, but we do know that at least 14 Frenchmen, 6 Germans, and 1 Italian have been killed serving in it - also 47 Americans.
Nor is it true that Zelenskyy has bought mansions in Florida or Egypt or anywhere else. Web resources like Zillow, image search, and more make this kind of thing very easy to check. My apolitical neighbor doesn't give a damn about politics but is from Florida: it took her 5 minutes to determine that the Florida mansion story was a lie and to trace it back to Russian propaganda sources.
Finally, can any of you honestly say that previous posts of 'rcocean' ever made you think, "What we really need is an 'RCOCEAN II'"? Everything he posted in triplicate is simply false.
There was a time, and I lived through it, when it seemed entirely reasonable to regard NATO as my country's bulwark against a Soviet Union that desired and intended to enslave all of Europe, and might well destroy our nation to achieve that goal. Whether that view of the situation was ever really valid is a question I return to with increasing puzzlement. But it is abundantly clear at this point that the Western media's abhorrence for "Russia" is simply an expression of the desire by certain powerful economic interests, headquartered, for purely historical reasons, in Western Europe, to further crush the only determinedly white, Christian nation left on the eurasian continent. Their desire and intention is to enslave all of Europe, and they would not be bothered in the least if the nation I live in were destroyed in the process, and my children with it. These people are Enemy. They are Enemy. Repeat after me, if you are an American. Enemy.
"Nor is it true that Zelenskyy has bought mansions in Florida or Egypt or anywhere else."
He's right. Dr. Weevil is entirely correct. I went to Goggle, and entered "Does Zelensky own any mansions?". And Goggle said "No". So thanks, Doc. That's settled. In fact, Zelensky has chained himself in the basement of the eight-hundred-year-old Ukrainian Parliament building, and vowed that he will die before he abandons the beloved nation in which he first played piano with his penis. That's just the kind of comedian he is. A die-hard, chained-by-his-penis-to-the-basement-of-parliament comedian. You have to wonder what his hot wife sees in him. I suppose she answered an ad, like AOC. In the final analysis, cute chicks are fungible.
Unfortunately for the Pope's suggestion, there aren't two sides both willing to behave in a moral and just manner towards each other in the Russia/Ukraine war. Ukraine can stop fighting, and die. Russia can stop fighting, and maybe even keep some of the land they captured. Guess who needs to stop fighting (it isn't Ukraine).
"When you see that you are defeated, that things are not going well, you have to have the courage to negotiate."
The word in that situation is not negotiate. It is surrender. Surrender to the unjust aggressor. No wonder no one listens to Francis anymore.
I understand the Pope is attempting to stay "neutral", but this is an example of ideological shortsightedness.
This is an example of Francis being like two certain people running for high office in the U.S. He too often shoots his mouth off and, at best, speaks recklessly without thinking through what he is saying.
Jupiter thinks Russia is a "white, christian nation"? Hahahahahaha! Someone needs to turn off the Putinite propaganda spigot and learn some history and geography.
How "Christian" is Russia? Here are the latest statistics for weekly church attendance from Wikipedia: Russia 8%, Ukraine 19%, US 41%. And a lot of those people attending 'church' in Russia are Muslims attending mosques. (Wikipedia gives Indonesia as the country with the highest "church" attendance, so obviously they're counting all religions.) And the head of the Russian Orthodox Church has been a KGB man since the 1970s.
As for "white", Russia is an empire in which the white Russians rule over tens of millions of non-whites and partly-whites confined to ethnic pseudo-republics and kept in poverty to serve as cannon fodder in wars. The US has millions of Muslims, but (except for a few converts) they are all here because they or their ancestors chose to come here. Muslims in Russia are Russian because Russia conquered them. Russia's 19th-century conquest of Cherkassia, for instance, was even more thoroughly genocidal than Turkey's 20th century massacre of Armenians.
Dr Weevil above confirms the suspicion that the Russia bogeyman we grew up with was not real, but was apparently American propaganda.
Grade school boomers having nightmares, and hiding under classroom desks to avoid Russian A bombs were a waste of time.
"As for "white", Russia is an empire in which the white Russians rule over tens of millions of non-whites and partly-whites confined to ethnic pseudo-republics and kept in poverty to serve as cannon fodder in wars."
Ummm, Doc? That "empire" was called the "Soviet Empire". And it fell apart a while back. You may have seen something about it in the newspapers at the time.
Ummm, Jupiter? Are you really so astonishingly ignorant that you don't know that Russia still rules and oppresses tens of millions of Chechens, Dagestanis, Udmurts, Tatars, Tuvans, Buryat Mongols, Yakuts, and dozens of other nationalities you've never heard of, in so-called "republics" from the Caucasus to Siberia? That many of them are Muslim, and most of them are disgruntled and dreaming of independence?
If, like some kind of racist, you're looking for white Christian allies, you might note that Russia is almost certainly less white than the Soviet Union was, since 8 of the 14 former Soviet 'republics', including by far the largest one (Ukraine) were mostly white and European (the Baltics, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, and Armenia). Only 6 were Muslim and Asian.
And the 'brown' regions of Russia are having far more children per mother than the white ones. If you'd ever followed the links I recommend to translations of Russian TV (@JuliaDavisNews on Twitter) you'd know that Russians have their own "great replacement theory". They want Ukraine back in great part because it's almost all white, since Stalin killed half the Crimean Tatars and deported the rest to Tatarstan. It is in fact Russian policy to use Mongols and Chechens and the rest as cannon fodder, while the white ruling class in Moscow and St. Petersburg keep their own kids safe. All this is well-known to anyone who's been paying attention to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
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