"The ruling in Donald J. Trump’s civil fraud case could cost him all his available cash. The judge said that the former president’s 'complete lack of contrition' bordered on pathological."
February 16, 2024
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98 comments:
Contrition for what? There was no fraud.
Scary how politically corrupt the court system has become.
They don't even care we're watching.
We aren't all that different from Russia are we? The difference is in degree, not in nature. I used to believe that we were the good guys.
One step closer to civil war. As the Ds weaponize the court and justice systems in numerous states with zealous judges and prosecutors who undercharge crimes by Ds and overcharge crimes by Rs, then not sure how the system can be fixed. It's an early version of Pakistan. Biggest concern is that moderates and conservatives with the most money and influence (the ones that could potentially fix) will just leave the U.S. rather than fight and risk the same thing happening to them. Interesting times and very depressing, and I fear a massive terrorist attack (not planned by Rs or Ds) is coming very soon.
Why should Trump be contrite, he didn't do anything wrong.
Just has to tie up his cash until November. Appeal won't be done by then, so it'll be sitting in an appeal bond (assuming Trump even thinks the New York appellate courts will give him a fair hearing).
Yet NO victim.
Trump organization, trump University, trump foundation,trumps assets ALL FRAUD.The biggest proven in courts of law criminal past president ever and its just beginning.Republican nominee who will take republican party the way of the WHIGS
That sounds like a lot of money. Maybe he should get a loan to help out.
If you were to hire a million sound trucks and staff them with elected judges announcing to the people in every corner of the country that they were completely corrupt, and that the judiciary cannot be trusted, you would not have done as much harm to our legal system as was accomplished today.
Can Engeron's bubble be so impermeable that he fails to see what this looks like? Apparently so.
Fraud? Doing what every other business person does?
What a joke this crap is. It will never hold up to a serious legal review.
Sad but I need to repeat myself. “A serious legal review “
Yea, I’d be pathological long before this crap.
I don’t know how our real President Trump endures this bullshit.
If they can’t put him in prison then that will try to bankrupt him.
Sad, really sad.
We’re next. Hang on, it’s coming to a town near you……
"The judge’s decision for now grants Ms. (Letitia) James, a Democrat, a career-defining victory. She campaigned for office promising to bring Mr. Trump to justice, and sat calmly in the courtroom as the former president attacked her, calling her a corrupt politician motivated solely by self-interest."
Not only a career defining moment for James, but one for the swamp. Add this to the list of the reasons why Trump needs to be elected and exact retribution.
Lack of contrition for borrowing money and paying it all back as agreed?
Wait until the IRS weighs in.............
Why should he be contrite? He didn’t do anything wrong.
A very good reason to elect Donald Trump — to see whether the judge, prosecutor, et. al. will express proper levels of contrition when the chickens come home to roost.
BREAKING: DOJ has charged the informant who provided derogatory informaton about Hunter and Joe Biden with "false statements" and obstruction.
"Sean Hannity's Fox News show ran with this informant's claims in at least 85 separate segments last year, including 28 monologues. He said they proved Joe Biden engaged in "public corruption on a scale this country has never seen before.”
Who didn't hear that trian comin'?
Thank God there will now be justice for the victims!
Every corporation, real estate investor, builder, and even homeowner in New York has just been put on notice that Democrats will use the flimsiest of pretexts to confiscate everything you own if you cross them politically, without anything we would have recognized as due process of law before this day.
These people are no longer to be considered our countrymen. They are tyrants, and the henchmen and myrmidons and handmaidens of tyrants. Absolutely the worst enemies that normal Americans have, more dangerous than Putin and Xi and all the terrorists who ever lived.
Scum. Filth. Sewage. Vermin. Lice.
I guess I'm running out of words to describe how much I hate the Democrats and the monster enemy occupation government they hold in their vest pocket. I'll have to SHOW them by hard I will now work to get Trump elected, in hopes that he destroys everything they hold dear.
"From each according to his ability..." St. Karl
Donald Trump Jr. on X: We've reached the point where your political beliefs combined with what venue your case is heard are the primary determinants of the outcome; not the facts of the case!
It’s truly sad what’s happened to our country and I hope others see it before it’s too late to correct course!
Sad. More than likely it's too late.
Comical and sad. A fraud without a defrauded. In a long career in commercial real estate finance I can write authoritatively that no lender relies on a prospective borrower’s estimate of an asset’s value the banks do their own due diligence and arrive at their own values supported by third party appraisals. The loans Trump took were non recourse meaning the banks had only the real estate as collateral. They are therefore careful in their evaluations. They have large talented staffs who do the underwritings and said work does not incorporate the borrower’s idea of the worth of an asset. Rather stunning the judge in this case must have discounted the testimony of the many bankers who testified to the process. His own lack of expertise was evident when he assigned Mar A Lago an absurd value under $40 million, the price of a not that great Palm Beach resident. Hopefully this will be overturned.
No one is above the law. Except, of course, judges.
The barbarians of New York have achieved a temporary victory over Trump. That includes the NYAG and the biased judge. The fix was in from the start. Verdict first, trial last.
@Althouse, please clarify for me. You keep telling us you’re “for boring.” Are you bored yet? Or are you ready for your beloved Democrats to serve up more like this?
Headline;
"Crazed New York taxi driver orders Trump to pay $354 million… Trump banned from business for three years…"
Gusty Winds wrote:
“They don't even care we're watching.”
Democrats want us to watch. They want us to know it’s acceptable to treat all of us this way.
Rank and file Democrats need to stand up to their own party.
The Democratic Party has become a criminal organization. This is just the last bit of evidence.
Today, Trump said something that may top everything he's said; "Even if I'm guilty, it's not a crime". Seems like a step beyond "absolute immunity".
This election is doing a terrific job of bankrolling all Trump's legal problems. Can Republican Party donors afford it?
@ Big Mike
You will be redirected to Breitbart in:
5
4
3
2
1
As of today it is gross malpractice for any lawyer to permit his or her client to incorporate in New York or to conduct significant business there. It’s not just New York either—Delaware just chased out Elon Musk and who knows how many others will silently follow him to Nevada, Texas or other jurisdictions where something like the rule of law still holds?
Look for major gaslighting and blame-shifting in 3…2…
Insane. Nobody claimed harm.
Will someone answer this; is it legal for a DA to run for office promising that they will target, arrest, and prosecute one person?
If this is legal, then we are through as a nation.
Send money, suckers
'We aren't all that different from Russia are we? The difference is in degree, not in nature. I used to believe that we were the good guys.'
A lot fewer idiot black prosecutors in Russia.
And the women there are much better looking.
There are no good guys.
The judge’s and the DA’s abuses of power are beyond pathological. Paging Kafka to the courtesy phone.
NBC Rich - do explain what Bank was defrauded.
I was casually speaking to several people this afternoon as the verdict news was breaking. There was one woman who said something along the lines of "I thought this case was all for show and the judge would come up with a reason to 'find Trump not guilty' as he told all the TV people the reasons why the rules wouldn't let him do what he wanted to in order to put Trump in jail. Like they did with Hillary". She then asked the guy next to her when Trump would have to go to jail.
I started to open my mouth to explain that she was mistaken, but instead listened as the other people try to explain things to her. Thankfully, I was next in line for the self check-out register, decided not to add my two cents, and escaped before I could hear all the explanations.
Lesson learned. Do not be at the dollar store when such news breaks.
I don’t even like Trump and I think this is absurd. Next time terrorists bomb NY I won’t be sending any donations. It’s not even America anymore. The Mob is more honest and less corrupt than NY judges, DAs, politicians and bureaucrats. Is this really what the people of NY WANT from their representatives?
Trump can't use his properties as collateral to get a bond for appeal.
And Justice For All*
* - Not Valid In New York
Next time terrorists bomb NY I won’t be sending any donations. It’s not even America anymore.
I'm sure regretting my contributions after Hurricane Sandy.
Until this week I didn't realize Jimmy Buffett was singing a song about NY and Delaware when he performed "Banana Republics."
We will have to elect him again so he can make enough to pay off the fine.
I look forward to hearing our law professor's opinion of this case and decision.
It's all about pretending. Woke is about pretending.
In this case pretending that diversity hires in the legal system are competent.
The question is how many levels of appeal the diversity hires rule before you get to a non diversity hire majority.
The Supreme Court is 6-3, so there's that.
This is banana republic stuff. It's running close to a bill of attainder.
+1 Re Michael at 6:02. Banks do not rely on the borrower’s stated values for real estate at all. There was no victim here. The major banks had learned that Trump’s numbers were phony in the ‘80’s. If they dealt with him after that it was based on third party appraisals, and they were stupid to do even that. He is liable for fraud and deserves being kicked out of New York, but the amount fine is crazy.
Gee that's too bad. maybe Trump should have retained an attorney who knew how to demand a jury trial.
"Even if I'm guilty, it's not a crime"
Instead of running your mouth with more snark, maybe you could actually identify the crime committed.
If I owned a company in NY, I'd be spending all this weekend figuring out how do I get out of here for TX/FL/NV, and how fast can I do it.
It seems clear that if you become a political enemy of those with political power in NY, the AG and courts can and will bankrupt you even when you honor the terms of a voluntary business deal, everybody gets paid, and no one loses money.
What's next in NY: Building a Gulag for political opponents?
Somewhere in hell Uncle Joe Stalin is smiling and calling out to Letitia James, "Show trial! Show trial! You go Girl!"
And here I thought no one could match my home state of CA for idiocy...
Maybe Putin can loan Trump the money.
The idea that there are no victims is more pro-Trump derangement:
1) By committing fraud, Trump was able to get loans that others could not because they were honest.
2) As pointed out in Engeron's decision, the danger is that not punishing fraud encourages others to commit fraud. And they may not be so lucky as to pay back the loans.
Every few months, a jury or a judge finds Trump corrupt as heck. And every single time, you guys circle the wagons to defend him. It's pathological at this point.
This one’s really low. Do people doing this exact same legal thing assume this will only happen to Trump in NU.
Disturbing the news is just distributed in the post. Can’t muster a comment on the legal ramifications?
Remember when, just a month ago, a Delaware court, formerly known for it's probity, made the unprecedented decision to rescind Elon Musk's pay package, based on a lawsuit by a shareholder who held 9 shares? The judge said "This court dared to go where no court has gone" In other words, she pulled the decision out of her ass.
That court came up on the Hunter Biden laptop where he used his connections to the court in a threatening letter.
If you refuse to sign the wire Kevin I will seek to have you removed from the board for unjust obstruction of equity holder rights. I am the only equity holder on the board. I will bring suit in the Chancery Court in Delaware- which as you k ow is my home state and I am privileged to have worked with and know every judge on the chancery court.
The events of the past few months remind me of nothing so much as what happened in Nazi Germany, when suddenly the courts no longer worked and the judgements all became based on political connections and considerations.
Trump is a marked man.
Yes, that judge really looks like he’s playing with a full deck, doesn’t he?
Fuck these people and fuck Yew Nork.
Gee Whizzzzz… didn’t that fine, upstanding Democrat Sen. Dickie Durbin vouch for Smirnoff?
The fix is in.
So, you aren't Trump, but you do business in NYC and don't bow down to the Democrat machine.... Do you maybe start moving your business outside New York?
I wonder if Trump can dump his NYC holdings and crash NYC's property market?
"This election is doing a terrific job of bankrolling all Trump's legal problems. Can Republican Party donors afford it?"
That must be one of the reasons why Trump's taking over the RNC with his daughter in-law Lara Trump. I wonder how many cash cows are still left for Trump to milk.
Not withstanding the expected appeals, the grand take away from all of this will be an increased flight of businesses from New York. What? You think Trump can't make a billion somewhere else? I wonder what Trump Tower would sell for today. He may want to unload it soon.
They don't even care we're watching
I think that’s the point of the exercise. Pour encourage les autres.
- Krumhorn
By committing fraud, Trump was able to get loans that others could not because they were honest.
Is it really possible that people are this economically ignorant?
Seen elsewhere on the internet:
Compare and contrast the activities of the US and Russian governments today:
One just ordered the seizure of assets from an oligarch opposed to the current regime, and is also trying to jail him on criminal charges.
The other is Russia.
Think about it, my fellow progressives...
JK Brown said...
So, you aren't Trump, but you do business in NYC and don't bow down to the Democrat machine.... Do you maybe start moving your business outside New York?
I wonder if Trump can dump his NYC holdings and crash NYC's property market?
So ripping off banks, insurance firms and renters is legal if your name is Trump? Trump broke the law many times over his entire adult life - even when he was a Democrat, JK!
As for the NYC property market, Trump is not a big enough player to even dent, let alone crash property values. If Trump has to sell to pay his civil liabilities, he will lose his shirt on his fire sales.
Will Chamberlain
@willchamberlain
Between the United States and Russia, one country just arbitrarily seized the assets of an oligarch opposed to the regime, and is trying to jail him
The other country is Russia
Rich, fix the Democratic Party.
Why won’t the Biden Administration extend Secret Service protection to RFKjr but will provide such protection to Nikki Haley?
Why did the Biden Administration send 6 billion dollars to Iran?
Why doesn’t the Democrat Party have primaries with opponents so that Democrat voters can at least feel empowered?
Mike said..."As pointed out in Engeron's decision, the danger is that not punishing fraud encourages others to commit fraud. And they may not be so lucky as to pay back the loans."
Cool. So next time Mike, let's say you put your house on the market, the buyers get a loan, and the buyers and the independent bankers funding the loan agree to pay your asking price. You walk away smiling.
Later on the value of the house drops and the buyers get foreclosed on.
Wouldn't have happened if you hadn't artificially inflated the house value at the time of the purchase, would it?
Fraud pure and simple according to your criteria, bro. Enjoy the judgment against you-
It's all to save democracy.
And me thinking Beria had been dead for almost a century.
JK Brown: that would be a neat trick. Then he could liquidate his golf courses and bring down the country club market.
Skeptical Voter said...
"This is banana republic stuff. It's running close to a bill of attainder."
Verdict of Attainder
I fear that the deep state is soon to find out why American citizens own 400 Million firearms.
“Blogger M said...
I don’t even like Trump and I think this is absurd. Next time terrorists bomb NY I won’t be sending any donations. It’s not even America anymore. “
Make that any and all democrat run cities/states.
JK Brown said...
So, you aren't Trump, but you do business in NYC and don't bow down to the Democrat machine.... Do you maybe start moving your business outside New York?
-------------
Seems to me that'd be a wise move. The business climate in NYC has just gone third-world - if you're connected and donate to the right people you're safe. If you don't, it's a matter of time before you are found guilty of something, even if they've got to make it up out of thin air. And even if you're protected now, that doesn't mean much. If you've got assets worth stealing, someone will notice.
This sets an absolutely horrible precedent.
Bug out now, while you still can.
Rit said...
By committing fraud, Trump was able to get loans that others could not because they were honest.
Is it really possible that people are this economically ignorant?
------------
Yes - if they see banks as being a 'zero-sum' environment where one person getting a loan means another one doesn't. But banks don't work that way. They judge you on your ability to pay it back. (Credit score 400? Good luck! Credit score 800? No problem!)
And for property-secured loans like Trump used, banks would have their own appraisers, not depend on Trump's valuation. Trump pays back the loans, everyone's happy. Until a judge decides out of nowhere that fraud was involved and sicks a DA on him.
The verdict was decided before the trial even started. How's our justice system supposed to work again? Innocent until proven guilty? Well, that got tossed out the window here...
The real estate crash in 2008 had millions of real victims who lost the jobs and homes. No one was charged with fraud. No one was banned from doing business in NY. Companies that had just crashed the world’s economies got bailed out.
Don’t even try to deny that there’s a double standard.
tim in vermont said...
It's all to save democracy.
2/16/24, 10:06 PM
correction....THEIR democracy!!!!
"He later added, “If this judgment sticks. Every developer must be jailed. They must be found guilty. They must be put out of business. You can’t do this to one another. It’s not about Trump.”
“It’s appalling. It’s unjust. I would go as far to say it’s un-American,” O’Leary added."
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/02/if-this-judgment-sticks-every-developer-must-be/
Moondawggie @ 10:01: excellent example of how this decision creates —I would say quite deliberately—unacceptable risk for everyone. Its effect on Trump is bad enough; but that’s not the point of the decision. Trump is just the conveniently tacky, boorish and polarizing figure through whom to make the point. And that point, being sent to everyone, is that justice is now —quite openly— a political plaything, that none of your properties or plans is safe, that you need to buy, and keep buying, a whole new kind of protection.
Even if the decision were reversed tomorrow, the damage has been enormous and cannot be undone.
The idea that there are no victims is more pro-Trump derangement:
1) By committing fraud, Trump was able to get loans that others could not because they were honest.
2) As pointed out in Engeron's decision, the danger is that not punishing fraud encourages others to commit fraud. And they may not be so lucky as to pay back the loans.
Every few months, a jury or a judge finds Trump corrupt as heck. And every single time, you guys circle the wagons to defend him. It's pathological at this point.
The level of ignorance and/or partisan beliefs in the above comment is just astounding. There was zero fraud. The actual rules that govern loans from banks makes it impossible for there to be fraud UNLESS the banks were in on it.
I will make it simple for you (and everyone else that supports this ruling). I come to you and say I want to borrow one million dollars and to secure this loan I am going to give you this diamond worth one hundred million dollars! I don't pay back the loan, you keep the diamond. What are YOU going to do? Accept my word that the diamond is worth so much or get the value verified? You can decide to do that but banks can NOT. They have a legal fiduciary duty to protect bank assets and this includes getting independent verification of asset value when those assets are used as collateral.
Lets say your independent verification finds that the current market value of this diamond is just fifty million dollars, you going to make the loan?
Since banks are required to have their own assessments, Trump could say ANYTHING and it is NOT fraud cause it is JUST his opinion. The BANK has to verify. Also, this is real-estate which can be pretty fluid based on local market, recent sales and purchase, near by construction, overall economy, local conditions, etc., etc., etc.
The ONLY point that matters and PROVES Trump is being railroaded is that the banks approved the loans. Unless the court can prove Trump either bribed the banks or put undo pressure on them to get the loans approve there was NO crime. Anyone saying different is ignorant and/or a hack.
They know
We know
They know we know
They don't care
Banks who lend and borrowers who borrow are key parts of the engine that make our economy grow. An ignorant NY judge has just criminalized growing the NY economy.
Also, the saga of George Bailey may provide an avenue of rebuke. I’d contribute.
Are the lenders complicit in this crime?
Two To Tango.
The lack of seriousness or contrition is coming from the progressives. They didn’t learn from their excesses during covid and then begged forgiveness they didn’t deserve, yet got if for no other reason than Biden’s DoJ protected them. So they are back to their excesses. The inevitable is.
The smug delight shown by the judge and most of the people on the left who are cheering this on is really distasteful. They KNOW perfectly well that this is a sham (some are stupid enough to believe it is just, but not most), and they think that is just wonderful. That is what I find most disturbing. Where does this sort of dishonesty end? Nowhere good. And Trump is the threat to "our democracy". Indeed.
The NYC commercial real estate market was already in big trouble. Are the judge and d.a. trying to kill it off completely? Insanity!
Can one of our lefties applauding this decision name a single bank that claimed to be defrauded? One?
A conviction in a victimless 'crime', where not a single putative victim ever bought charges or even stated a complaint, or stepped forward as a witness; where every business transaction entered into evidence was conducted within the confines of business procedure and convention; and said conviction was pursued by a civic legal structure committed to eliminating bail, de-funding the police, and not prosecuting every-day crimes - even violent ones, resulting in deaths.
I wonder why billionaires and lesser rich people are leaving New York and Delaware?
The judge is provably incompetent and biased. He should be removed from the bench and disbarred.
If his logic was applied to everyone equally, he would collapse the economy of New York within minutes.
New York has always been run by the mob, Boss Tweed set the tone. Play by my rules or I’ll burn your house down. Be proud Democrats, the crooks won.
The lenders, with due diligence, with final approval, who emerged, not only unharmed, but with more capital... what was the question?
So, New York owes Trump a refund on taxes of their estimation of overvalued properties. The IRS, too. State and Federal, and downstream entities, should be audited to assess fiduciary responsibility.
The age of LOL where some, select are laughing in a redistributive economy.
Here's (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/17/trump-hubris-family-empire-new-york) where Sidney Blumenthal told eager readers of the Guardian that Trump committed fraud, with no hint that maybe he hadn't. And read the comments. It's like being present at a 2 minute hate.
No other large business in NYC is worried about this decision at all. First, they have good lawyers, not the clown show the Trump defendants except Ivanka used, who let their clients act like clowns. Second, they know that the judges in the state and federal courts in NY take pride in making NY the commercial law center of the country (alongside the courts in DE taking pride in making themselves the corporate governance center of the country, Musk flight to TX notwithstanding).
It's a benefit that Trump had a bench trial because it's easier for state appellate courts to find holes in a lengthy written opinion than in the evidentiary rulings and jury instructions of the recent SDNY defamation case. If the decision is erroneous (I haven't read it), it will be reversed.
Readering said..."If the decision is erroneous (I haven't read it), it will be reversed."
Possibly, but in NY the process is the punishment. (And extremely costly punishment at that.)
Why on earth would any legitimate business want to operate there, even if you might be found innocent on appeal after wasting years and millions of dollars defending against politically motivated legal charges?
I suspect most businesses believe life is too short to waste time and treasure dealing with these hassles.
Readering said...
If the decision is erroneous (I haven't read it), it will be reversed.
Always finding that silver lining!
So a totally politically motivated trial for no crime with the associated costs, inconvenience, and public ridicule is A-OK cause if the decision is a erroneous [which ANYONE with an ounce of common sense knows it is] it will be reversed (after wasting even MORE time and money)! I think that is the textbook definition of "cold comfort".
Shame Trump can't sue the state and the prosecutor personally for this witch hunt.
Ann, thank you for finally allowing comments on this subject. I'm elated at the various responses from your readers on the one hand - yet you as a Professor of Law are curiously silent on this legal verdict? My friends, I've done thousands of loans, as a former banker, and Trump's financial statements are his view of his "net worth". As a witness from one of the banks stated "...the bank conducted its own “stress test” and adjusted the numbers downward...". Deutsche Banker Williams further elaborated - "...Deutsche Bank adjusted Mr. Trump’s net worth to $2.6 billion from the $4.9 billion..." He was asked about the magnitude of this adjustment - “...it’s not unusual for any client’s provided financial statements to be adjusted to this level...". Moreover, this being a real estate loan it was unusual that Mr. Trump had personally guaranteed this loan (normally not done). The Bank made the loan and it was paid back in full. In fact, the Banker stated, in an internal email, that Deutsche Bank's relationship with Mr. Trump, "Mr. Trump was one of the top 10 clients in his division in terms of revenue generation...". BTW, other banks who made loans to Mr. Trump all testified that "we have a very profitable relationship with the Trump family...". Now let's see - Trump borrowed money and paid it back with all banks happy with this banking relationship - how was fraud committed?
It's judge who should express contrition.
Have you seen and heard that judge? As far as I can tell, he should be institutionalized for the protection of the people of New Your.
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