२४ फेब्रुवारी, २०२४
"Far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich announced plans late Thursday for approval of 3,000 new settlement homes..."
"... after Israeli police said Palestinian gunmen opened fire near the existing Maale Adumim settlement, killing one Israeli and wounding five. The expansion plans, he said, were part of 'deepening our eternal grip on the entire Land of Israel.' 'This is outrageous' after all the U.S. backing the Israeli government has received in the past several months, a former Biden official said. 'For Smotrich to go and do this is just basically an F-you.'"
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८३ टिप्पण्या:
“Far right” is a nudge to readers to condemn new settlements.
Israel would be derelict in their duty not to take advantage of situation the other side started, this time around.
The way we live now: “You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.” - Rahm Emanuel
"Far right" = not insane marxists
The modern state of Israel would not and cannot exist without the United States. No reasonable person exercising simple political and military calculus could honestly say otherwise. Even their nuclear program exists because of the American eyes purposely blinded to their malfeasance in obtaining what was needed to start it.
Were US support to vanish tomorrow, Israel would be on borrowed time, although no-one could probably tell you for how long.
Israel's behavior to its largest and most benevolent benefactor over the last 70 years has been one giant, never-ending "F-you". It is a slap on our cheeks that has only been repeatedly turned for no other reason than they serve us in a region the way North Korea serves the PRC - as a geopolitical foible in a land rich with a resource we need vast quantities of.
Israel is to the United States what a cluster B personality wife is to a husband desperately trying to keep the family together. Eventually the patience is going to run out, and we're already starting to see it. Good. Israel is not the friend to the USA people think it is. Even white Christian boomer nincompoops are starting to see it. Our "love" for the semites is not open-ended. The checking account can be put back in our name.
It's a bad move that feeds the antisemites red meat.
Leftists claim that being anti-Zionist is not the same as hating Jews. Can someone explain this to me as I think that is complete BS. More 2 + 2 = 5.
If someone says they want a free Palestine, they hate Jews.
57 years ago, the Israelis should have driven all the Palestinians out of Gaza and into Egypt and out of the West Bank into Jordan across the river. They have spent all that time removing a band-aid very slowly.
"Far-right" ... "far-right".... Apparently the idea that Jews can build homes in areas gained in a defensive war is now a far-right position. Arabs can live in Israel, but everywhere outside the pre-1967 armistice lines should be Judenrein, so that Arabs can continue firing missiles into Israel.
After Oct 7th - The Palestinians proved they do not deserve .... anything but the like treatment of Nazis after WWII.
Palestinians who hold hostages should be arrested and tied for war crimes against humanity.
Frankly, as Trump might say, I think 3,000 is a low number, waste of an opportunity.
Settlers include kibbutz beeri netivot kfarar azaa althose were jews were murdered
Aren't free elections just awful?
"Leftists claim that being anti-Zionist is not the same as hating Jews"
And Rightists claim that being anti-BLM is not the same as hating black people.
If this is going to be the standard you want to hold other people to, perhaps you should live by it yourself, Dave.
Mark:
Well, explain to me what Zionism is.
BLM is an identity politics scam that made a few people really rich.
"It's a bad move that feeds the antisemites red meat."
Antisemites are vegans
I've often wondered what would've happened in 1973 had the USA called Israel’s bluff. During the devastating beginning of the Yom Kippur war when Israel was getting plastered Golda Meir started strategically moving around Israel's Atomic warhead components in a way that would be visible to USAF strategic intelligence. And they did notice.
Israel was basically alluding, "You'd better rescue us and you'd better do it now or by the tetragramaton we'll initiate a nuclear exchange." And of course the USA did with Operation Nickel Grass. Like a spendthrift housewife who's gotten the whole family in over its head she pounds the table demanding her husband open up another line of credit to pay off the first one (the 1967 war).
I would've called their bluff. Go ahead honeybunny. Skin that smoke wagon and see what happens. Exercise your "Sampson Option", destroys 'God's works'. We can make you a pariah as much as you can ruin the family.
I have no doubt Israel would've backed down. But instead it worked. And here we are.
BLM is not a catch-=all for blacks, Leftist Mark.
do you know anything about the women who stared it - their fraud and grift?
Anti-Zionism contains some diverse opinions, including a small subset of orthodox rabbis who hold that God alone can reestablish Israel. Members of this group were guests of the Iranian Majles in a discussion group planning another jihad.
But mostly it's just plain old Jew-hatred. When anti-BLM folks, beat up isolated blacks lawfully attending to their own affairs or expel them from a university for not condemning BLM, or invade their homes to rape and behead their children, then Mark has a slim case for his equivocations.
this is just basically an F-you
You'd think Joe would be used to that by now.
Israel's entire relationship with the United States can be summed up in the narcissist’s mantra:
"If you don't let me do this or give me everything I ask for it means you don't love me. If you don't protect me it means you don't care. If you don't hate the same things or people I hate you lack the devotion I expect of you."
America is the paypigging simp to Israel's onlyfans account. The time is coming Israel for single-mom Israel to work a real job, but the cocktail dress won't fit anymore sugar.
"Even their nuclear program exists because of the American eyes purposely blinded to their malfeasance in obtaining what was needed to start it."
You're on the right track there. But. JFK was going to stop them. It was LBJ that let them do it. Lucky for Israel, some nutjob shot JFK. "Bang, bang, bang". Purposely blinded indeed.
"It is a slap on our cheeks that has only been repeatedly turned for no other reason than they serve us in a region the way North Korea serves the PRC - as a geopolitical foible in a land rich with a resource we need vast quantities of."
Well, except, US support for Israel actually makes things a lot harder for the US in the Middle East. The actual reason is the immense influence that Israel has over the US government, due to the disproportionate political and economic influence of American Jews, and Israel's willingness to resort to blackmail, bribery, and assassination to get what they want. It helps that many non-Israeli Jews, in the US and Europe, have been quite willing to help them in that effort. They are known as sayanim. They use their positions in banking, media and industry to assist the Mossad's espionage against their host countries. You can look it up, kids. It's not a secret.
The downside, for Israel, is that when you get what you want by dirty tricks, after a while, everyone who's not your friend hates your fucking guts. The US can't protect them from Iranian nukes. And they know it. That's why they're working on strategic subs.
"Leftists claim that being anti-Zionist is not the same as hating Jews. Can someone explain this to me ...".
Easy there, Big Fella. Anti-Zionists claim that being anti-Zionist is not the same as hating Jews. Is opposition to Russia's annexation of large parts of Ukraine the same as hating Russians? I would say, no, but the one can certainly lead to the other.
'Far-right.'
: )
I would say the politics are bad for Israel, but people live by the incentives they have.
In the game theory of conflict, you need to go as hard as you can to seek advantage before the ceasefire. After the ceasefire, lines firm up and gains are forbidden. So the Palestinians fell into a trap. If you are too successful at killing Jews (Oct 7), sure you get your dead Jews ( round one goes to the Palestinians ), but you will lose something else on the deal ( round two goes to Israel ).
Palestinians have and will lose more in Gaza too.
"57 years ago, the Israelis should have driven all the Palestinians out of Gaza and into Egypt and out of the West Bank into Jordan across the river."
Well, yeah. Same as we did to the Mohicans, right? The difficulty is that times have changed. That kind of thing is frowned on nowadays. The original Zionists had a simple plan, to obtain land from an autocratic potentate. You could do that back then, no one said "Boo". But a couple World Wars intervened, and the Ottomans were gone. So, they went about it a little differently. And their heirs are at it still. The Israeli "far right" wants the whole pizza, and thinks what they have now is just a small slice. Hard to see how that's gonna work out.
Ride Space Mountain- you're reacting as if you think ALL Israelis think alike and all of them have the fuck you attitude toward the US. If you pay any attention at all to the politics in Israel, you would note that it is amazingly similar to the US in the volume of disagreement within it's own people.
But one thing they all agree on (unlike many of our fellow American citizens): Israelis know that they appreciate the US and look to the US as its main and best friend in the world. That said, they also know that as Jews, they can in the end, depend only on themselves for survival. And you can see it in the change of attitude among our young, academia, and the media in this country as recently as October 8. It didn't take but a minute for the entire rest of the world to unleash their pent up anti-Jew and let 'er rip.
Israel has a tough relationship with the US. It depends on our money, our weapons for their survival. In return, they give us their intel, their research, their patented scientific work. Many in Israel want to take over Judea & Samaria- the ancient lands of the Israelis. It would also create a larger buffer between them and those who are relentless, and will never stop looking to eliminate them.
I find it interesting that never, not ever- has any other Arab or Muslim nation offered to take in the Palestinians. Not sure why. Maybe you know. Those looking to extend the lands of Israel are looking for more of a buffer. If you've ever been there, you would be amazed at how unsecure a nation it is and maybe understand how, living under threat of murder makes you react in a way you may not understand from your couch here in the US.
Over-compensating non-combatv"vet" Howitzer Howard: "It's a bad move that feeds the antisemites red meat."
LOL
Keep Jews out of Judea, right Howie?
Could you and your pro-Hamas team try to go just one day without caving to your islamic supremacist allies?
"Well, explain to me what Zionism is."
OK. Suppose you and a million or so of your friends decide to buy land around Acapulco. No problem, right? The land is for sale. But then you start a paramilitary, and carry out a few village massacres, just to keep the price of land from getting out of hand. We could call this "Davism". And when some of them fight back, you decide to take over the whole southern half of Guerrero. You bribe the US President to recognize your nation -- we'll call it "Davia" -- and now you've got a seat at the UN. What's not to like? Except you're not Cortez, and they ain't the Aztecs. There may be some pushback.
This is the same ol'game that has been going on for 20 years. The US Govenment denounces the West Bank settlements and wags its finger, Israel then says "oh, gosh our bad" or "Fuck you" depending on their mood, and the Settlements continue.
Israel would stop building settlments in one second, if the US Government would cut aid or stop giving Israel 1001 favors and special privilages. But it does NOTHING. Just fake words.
Isreal is committing ethnic cleansing on the West Bank. Its not their land. It has no right to settle people there. Or to kick out the Palestinians. But somehow nobody wants to say that. Which makes all their moralism over Ukraine or the Chinese taking over Taiwan seem like the bullshit it is.
This is the same ol'game that has been going on for 20 years. The US Govenment denounces the West Bank settlements and wags its finger, Israel then says "oh, gosh our bad" or "Fuck you" depending on their mood, and the Settlements continue.
Israel would stop building settlments in one second, if the US Government would cut aid or stop giving Israel 1001 favors and special privilages. But it does NOTHING. Just fake words.
Isreal is committing ethnic cleansing on the West Bank. Its not their land. It has no right to settle people there. Or to kick out the Palestinians. But somehow nobody wants to say that. Which makes all their moralism over Ukraine or the Chinese taking over Taiwan seem like the bullshit it is.
BTW, Biden is NOT "reversing policy". He's just saying different words, and taking no action. Like always.
"So the Palestinians fell into a trap."
Well. Paragliding into a Peace-and-Love music festival to rape and kill everyone doesn't look good, that's for sure. And the truth is, the Palestinians are not anyone you would want for neighbors. Did you see them, shouting "Allahu Akbar", as they exulted over the broken body of a lovely girl? Filthy fucking scum. Drive them into the sea and let the sharks have them.
But the Israelis are in a trap also, a trap they made, but a trap nonetheless. What the Russian Army did in Prussia and Berlin makes Oct 7th look like a Peace-and-Love music festival. That's what can happen when you neglect to kill all the people you have dispossessed.
"This is the same ol'game that has been going on for 20 years."
A lot longer than that.
its not their land but their prophets are ibrahim mua and co, its not the Christians land either even though jesus was from bethlehem tell me another one,
What does "illegal" mean in this context? Long ago, Jews controlled the land. Then Muslims invaded. Then the Ottoman Empire controlled the land. The the British took over. Then the U.N. partitioned the areas that the British were administering, but the Muslims did not agree to the terms of the partition. Then the Muslims tried to kill the Jews and lost, so, once again, the Jews controlled the land. After 56 more years, the Muslims have not agreed to take the land back unless they are also allowed to kill the Jews.
by that standard we should give up this country, don't laugh the same parties want to dismantle this country,
the Warlord Xi is the heir to the Mandarin Mao who stole China from the people, and killed 60 million, in doing so,
"I find it interesting that never, not ever- has any other Arab or Muslim nation offered to take in the Palestinians. Not sure why. Maybe you know."
The King of Jordan let the Palestinians in, and they tried to take over the country. Came pretty close, too. So he drove them out, into the West Bank and Lebanon, and they took over Lebanon. Beirut used to be the "Paris of the Mediterranean". Now it's just another Muzzie shithole. The Egyptians want none of it. The libertarians will tell you that "people are wealth", but it kind of depends on the people.
Begley, demanding definitions is a nice attempt to deflect from your post.
I have no idea why Hamas did the 10/7 massacre. I don’t know what there was to win. My guess was that all the Hamas bosses were getting old and thought that since they paid for all the guns and rockets they should at least use them before they died.
They might have created a Götterdämmerung if Lebanon, Jordan, and the Iranian Rep Guard came in. Israel would have nuked everyone as the horde sacked Tel Aviv, and Hamas could have ruled the ashes.
White House reverses West Bank policy ... in response to..." possibly losing votes in the upper midwest.
Jewish votes in NY where Biden's a shoe-n v. Muslim votes in a swing state.
I't's not that hard.
Zionists are Jewish community organizers.
That said, nearly a century of "Palestinians" et al attempting Jewish genocide, failing, getting pushed back, reorganizing, with a novel modern effort to socially justify the ethnic cleansing, rape, torture, and abduction of Jewish persons. Palestinian Lives Matter (PLM)?
Jupiter-
What you describe is very close to how the United States came to acquire half of what was once Mexico. "Anglo" settlers moved into Texas (at the time a part of the Mexican state of Coahuila y Texas), overpowered the sparse and poorly organized locals, and fought a war of independence. 9 years later, Texas joined the USA. The USA then looked at another chunk of Mexico, which was also sparsely populated and indefensible by Mexico. Mexico took this as a threat, and agitators on both sides clamored for war. The Mexican war resulted in USA taking the northern 50% of Mexican territory (the part with all the good roads).
It may be good, it may be bad, but one thing it definitely is is history. Similar history has been repeated in hundreds of other situations around the world (see 18th-20th century Europe).
Israel has tried for 75 years to live with its neighbors. After Oct 7, I can't blame them if they decide to live without them.
The decision was in response to reports that the far-right government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was planning further settlement expansion, an official said" (WaPo).
Couldn't they fit a MIGA in there, somewhere?
never, not ever- has any other Arab or Muslim nation offered to take in the Palestinians.
There was transjordan, the kingdom of Jordan, the second state solution, but the option was aborted with, I believe it was the PLO, a failed Jordanian Spring, which prompted the Jordanians to eject the Palestinians, and engendered progress of the contemporary West Bank and Gaza compromises, Hamas feifdom, etc. Fatah has realized that the Jews will not take a knee. Hamas still hopes for change at the expense of the Israeli and Palestinian people.
RSM-
There wasn't going to be a nuclear "exchange" in 1973.
Israel was the only combatant who had nukes. It was threatened with annihilation and its back was to the wall. Use of nukes would be an act of desperation that fortunately they did not have to resort to.
If Israel had used nukes in 1973, it would have been much more justified than our use of them in 1945. Japan was no threat to any non-combatant American then. I believe that their use was justified as a least-bad option, and it worked out better than anyone could have hoped (in terms of how Japan subsequently transitioned its society into a successful one), but let's keep some perspective.
“And when some of them fight back, you decide to take over the whole southern half of Guerrero”
Your analogy is fine, but to perfect it, this was a district of the Otttoman Empire when the Jews came. If the Muffti of Jerusalem is considered the source of Palestinian government at the time, they were defeated by the British so there was title shift due to legitimate conquest of world war 1 and 2. Israel’s birth was in the context of the chaos of Britain and the UN supervising the new facts of the Ottoman breakup, not like just going into Mexico and taking over.
It’s an unknown question what would have been done with Arab or Jewish personal real estate titles that existed from pre war times if Israel had not been created.
Has the modern-day WaPo ever described a group as 'far-left'?
Just curious.
Blogger Temujin said...
Ride Space Mountain- you're reacting as if you think ALL Israelis think alike and all of them have the fuck you attitude toward the US. If you pay any attention at all to the politics in Israel, you would note that it is amazingly similar to the US in the volume of disagreement within it's own people.
But one thing they all agree on...in the end, depend only on themselves for survival...
I find it interesting that never, not ever- has any other Arab or Muslim nation offered to take in the Palestinians. Not sure why. Maybe you know. Those looking to extend the lands of Israel are looking for more of a buffer. If you've ever been there, you would be amazed at how unsecure a nation it is and maybe understand how, living under threat of murder makes you react in a way you may not understand from your couch here in the US.
I'm old enough to remember the "plight" of the Palestinians. None of the countries of the Arab world wanted them around. The "trailer trash" of the Arab world, so to speak. I think we talked about it in civics class, which was many, many years ago.
I was in a tour group in Israel a year ago January. There is no way you know what it's like unless you have actually been there. Passing through armed guard posts. "Danger, land mines" from previous wars. "Entry forbidden for Israeli citizens." Armed security everywhere. Yet life goes on there. Our Muslim bus driver (Israel citizenship) and Jewish guide got along fine, even joking around in the driver's language.
this is their goal
https://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2007/10/dreaming-of-al-andalus
'Far-right.'
: )
Yes, I noticed that, too. The far-right of the governing spectrum is anarchist, the right is libertarian, the center is conservative, the left is authoritarian, the far-left is totalitarian. To be fair, the left-right nexus is leftist, so perhaps that's the premise of their handmade tale.
OK. Suppose you and a million or so of your friends decide to buy land around Acapulco. No problem, right? The land is for sale. But then you start a paramilitary, and carry out a few village massacres, just to keep the price of land from getting out of hand. We could call this "Davism".
Poor analogy. Mexico is a sovereign nation. "Palestine" never was, and certainly wasn't in the 1880s through 1948 was not. Once the Ottomans were out, the Brits were trying to figure out how to carve it up. First they set aside all of Transjordan for the Arabs. And then it was the Arabs who started the massacres. Meanwhile in the 30s and 40s the Brits allowed Arabs to migrate into Palestine while keeping Jews out. When the UN finally decided to give the Jews a little slice of the pizza and the Arabs the rest, it was the Arabs who wanted the whole pizza and started a war.
News from Israel requires a 72 hour cooling off period. Their domestic politics are intricate, and it takes a while to assess what this statement by someone I've never heard of really means.
In the meantime, the media in the US wants to ignore the collective nature of Israel's current ruling war cabinet troika, and equate Israel with good old punching bag Benjamin Netanyahu.
"And Rightists claim that being anti-BLM is not the same as hating black people."
You are unaware of the BLM funding controversy?
Stop incentivizing more terrorism.
To add to Temujin's excellent response to Ride Space Mountain, I would add a couple of things.
First, the idea that the US has been the main prop to Israel all along has in no way been true throughout Israel's history. In fact, aside from Truman's immediate recognition of Israel on May 15, 1948, the US State Department and other top officials were hostile to Israel. The U.S. did not arm Israel in its initial war of Independence. Czechoslovakia was the only major outside source of aid. Since in the first year or so of its existence it was the communist world that helped Israel, thinking it might make a good launching pad for its geopolitical ambitions in the Middle East. It quickly gave up that hope when it decided to align with the Arab nations instead. Jeffrey Herf tells this story in his latest book, "Israel's Moment." The US was highly ambivalent about Israel all the way to about 1970 and until then gave it very little military aid.
Moreover, if you think the US gives Israel aid out of some bending to the Israel lobby or out of love for the Jews, you are largely mistaken. We give that aid out of self-interest in having on our side the only truly democratic and Western-oriented nation in that region. Most of the money is spent on our own defense industries and, as Temujin points out, we benefit from the magnificent use and adaptation Israel does with that equipment, saving us the need to figure out how best to use it ourselves. Israel is, and must remain, our most valuable alliance of all, especially given the increasing ambivalent incoherence of our "allies" in Europe.
And then there is Jupiter. My goodness, you think this analogy is sound?
"OK. Suppose you and a million or so of your friends decide to buy land around Acapulco. No problem, right? The land is for sale. But then you start a paramilitary, and carry out a few village massacres, just to keep the price of land from getting out of hand."
As some here have in part corrected, this is totally distorted. First, some Jews had always lived in Palestine. In the 1880s, the Zionist settlers began to arrive. Palestine was a tiny sliver of the Ottoman Empire. Jews did not "colonize" it. The Jews purchased their land, and that is the ONLY way they took control of any land all the way up to 1947. Yes, they had some defense forces to protect them from Arab attacks, which erupted several times during the British period of control (1918-1948) especially in 1929 and 1936-39. But in 1947, the UN partitioned the lands into one for the Jews and one for the Arabs. the Jews accepted theirs and the Arabs instead vowed to go to war and eliminate the Jewish state in its birth. It was only THEN that Israel began major military operations to save its country, and yes, some massacres occurred, though not nearly as many by Israel as is claimed by the nakba" adherents. In any case, it was a war of self-defense and survival. Thank God, the Jews survived.
Howard said...
"It's a bad move that feeds the antisemites red meat."
There has always been anti-semites. Like you and your friends. Israel doesn't care about your opinions. Or the worlds. Isrealis have to live in Israel. Not you Democrats. Not the UN.
Howard said...
"It's a bad move that feeds the antisemites red meat."
There has always been anti-semites. Like you and your friends. Israel doesn't care about your opinions. Or the worlds. Isrealis have to live in Israel. Not you Democrats. Not the UN.
The US has been parading this fantasy of a two state solution for a long time as if the Palestinians ever wanted that. That’s the absurdity of the situation that Israel has had to play along with in spite of the realities of the geographical vulnerability that would cause to Israel and of Abbas declaring that no Jews would be allowed to live in that state of Palestine. Can you imagine any country banning a group of people because of their religion and that is considered acceptable? Can the US Actually be supporting that kind of policy?
"Poor analogy. Mexico is a sovereign nation."
Oh, for Christ's Bethlehemanian sake. The point here, is that land belongs to whoever is on it when the fighting stops. And the fighting never stops. It sometimes appears to have paused, but unless you have killed the people you took it from, they want it back. Duh!
"We give that aid out of self-interest in having on our side the only truly democratic and Western-oriented nation in that region."
Yeah, right, we have to shove it down their throats. Good thing we have K street, the ADL and the Mossad to help us pry their jaws open.
"And then there is Jupiter. My goodness, you think this analogy is sound?"
Dave Begley wanted to know what Zionism is. Zionism is a movement that began in the 19th century, in Europe, Asia and North America, with the goal of obtaining some land for a Jewish homeland. They considered land in Africa and South America. They were not, at that time, making any claims about historical occupancy. If Acapulco had looked promising, they might be there today. So, yeah, the analogy is sound.
"and yes, some massacres occurred,"
Indeed. That'll happen, when you go to build a house somewhere, and some asshole has gone and built his house there already. Fucker! But none of them involved Peace-and-Love music festivals, so no need to get excited about it. Right, Jonathon?
"Thank God, the Jews survived."
Which God, exactly? Not Allah, I'm guessing. And probably not the one the goys pray to, either.
Little remembered fact that Sec State George Marshall bitterly opposed recognition of the State of Israel 1948. He was wrong in his opposition, but correct in his prescience.
Maybe you should thank Him for Lee Harvey Oswald while you're at it.
"News from Israel requires a 72 hour cooling off period."
The desire of "right-wing" Israelis to conquer what they call "Greater Israel" is not news. Give them credit, they actually do have a plan, and they're sticking to it. You have to wonder, what plan do the "left-wing" Israelis have? Peace-and-Love music festivals? I mean, seriously, would you trade your house for one in Israel? You think we have a problem with illegal military-age migrants ...
Thanks for most of the posts above. This is very complicated. My bottom-line is I support the Jews and the state of Israel.
In case you're having trouble keeping them all straight, that goyischer God would have been the one the American sailors on the USS Liberty were praying to, when they were attacked by the Israeli Air Force. And they weren't thanking him for the survival of the Jews.
@Temujin
I appreciate your response. I have made it very clear here multiple times that my views on the Middle East are complicated, to say the least. We have to speak in generalities and parsed clauses here because A) some of the discussions with the intelligent people here could quite literally turn into books and B) this is isn't our blog.
I will say that I understand a lot of the internal haywire going on in Israel’s judiciary issues and internal ethnic politics. Most of what I like talking about re Israel is its relationship with the USA. I've said before that the 10/7 attack is one of the dumbest most boneheaded actions I've ever seen a non-state actor take since 9/11...it boggles the mind what they thought their objective was. I disagree that the Israel-USA relationship is 100% reciprocative. It is not. No relationship where one needs the other for survival is 100% reciprocative and I will also say regardless of pushback that I feel Israel owes the US more, a lot more than it gives.
Additionally, I acknowledge the Jewish people and the richness they have added to the tapestry of the human condition. I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE atheistic, communistic or tikkun-olaming 'socialistic' Jews or their intense interest in perfecting the affairs of others...I'm sure you know what I mean.
A very very small contingent is doing incalculable damage to the reputation of the other 15.7 million Jews on this planet. They are drawn to the 'evil inclination' (Yetzer Ha-Ra) and are doing tremendous damage globally. I sense you'd agree.
Dumb Lefty Mark: "And Rightists claim that being anti-BLM is not the same as hating black people."
Original Mike: "You are unaware of the BLM funding controversy?"
He ain't Dumb Lefty Mark for nuttin'.
I'd recommend reading about the massacre in Hebron, 1929, to understand the development of events. Hebron was the site of the burial plots of the Jewish patriarchs and Matriachs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah, Rebecca and Leah (Rachel buried near Bethlehem after dying in childbirth) and thus extremely significant to Jews, no matter how many Muslims moved into the area.
The notion that Jews had no preference to return to their original homeland and would have been just as satisfied living in Ghana or Alcapulco is ignorant and insulting. In addition, equally ignorant is the assertion is that Jews came into Israel and caused problems by displacing Arabs by force. Jews came to a land where Jews were already established long before Arabs were there. Understandably Arabs felt they had conquered the land for Islam in the 7th century and therefore it belonged exclusively to them, and furthermore that Islam had replaced Judaism as God's (Allah's) final revelation. The problems in the area utlimately stemed from Muslim Arab intolerance and resentment not Jewish aggression.
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre:
"The Hebron massacre was the killing of sixty-seven or sixty-nine Jews on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were planning to seize control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.[1] The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked. Some of the 435 Jews in Hebron who survived were hidden by local Arab families,[2] although the extent of this phenomenon is debated.[3] Soon after, all Hebron's Jews were evacuated by the British authorities.[4] Many returned in 1931, but almost all were evacuated at the outbreak of the 1936–39 Arab revolt in Palestine. The massacre formed part of the 1929 Palestine riots, in which a total of 133 Jews and 110 Arabs were killed, the majority of the latter by British police and military,[5] and brought the centuries-old Jewish presence in Hebron to an end.
The massacre, together with that of Jews in Safed, sent shock waves through Jewish communities in Palestine and around the world. It led to the re-organization and development of the Jewish paramilitary organization, the Haganah, which later became the nucleus of the Israel Defense Forces.[6]"
@West TX Intermediate Crude
"There wasn't going to be a nuclear "exchange" in 1973"
I know. That's why I said I would've called Golda's bluff. By her own admission and biography she knew they weren't really going to use them, but that wasn't the point. Nothing scares the USA like the chance - the merest chance - one NUCFLASH, accidental or otherwise, would lead to a limited exchange, and then more, and more and so on. Golda knew this. She used it. It worked.
It was a game of Texas hold'em and the USA folded.
And Rightists claim that being anti-BLM is not the same as hating black people.
Most of the BLM riots I saw were filled with a bunch of snot-nosed, white leftists. Not blacks.
All of the BLM signs I see in the windows of downtown businesses ... are run by white leftists. Not blacks.
All the BLM graffiti I've seen sprayed everywhere was done by white leftists. Not blacks.
So, yes. Being anti-BLM is not the same as hating black people. It's hating smug, white leftists. Like you.
"Poor analogy. Mexico is a sovereign nation."
Oh, for Christ's Bethlehemanian sake. The point here, is that land belongs to whoever is on it when the fighting stops. And the fighting never stops. It sometimes appears to have paused, but unless you have killed the people you took it from, they want it back. Duh!
Whatever. The point is your "analogy" fits the Arabs better than the Jews. And hundreds of millions of people have lost land in wars and have moved on in their lives. The difference is that they haven't lost it to those pesky Jews, and they don't have the UN and most of the world egging them on and inflaming the situation. The Pallies don't have to die, they just have to surrender, unconditionally. Just like the Japanese and the Germans did.
Just to be clear, the dogma of conservative Muslims is that Islam has replaced Judaism and Christianity and the Muslims' obligation is to bring the non-Muslim world to Islam. Therefore the presence of a Jewish state, let alone a modern, successful Jewish state, in the Middle East would be seen as a refutation of or challenge to Islam and that's why it is so unacceptable and emotionally triggering. Naturally defensive people accuse Israel and Jews of wrongdoing but that is a smoke screen for the actual offense of appearing to diminish the supremacy of Islam.
Interestingly Trump, who is supposedly a complete dolt, was able to see through all this and appeal to more progressively minded leaders of Islamic states who are not threatened and welcome normal relations with Israel, i.e., the Abrahamic Accords.
"My bottom-line is I support the Jews and the state of Israel."
Interesting way of phrasing it. Could you maybe support one, without supporting the other?
"Far Right". = not a progressive.
Blogger Dave Begley said...
Leftists claim that being anti-Zionist is not the same as hating Jews. Can someone explain this to me as I think that is complete BS. More 2 + 2 = 5.
If someone says they want a free Palestine, they hate Jews.
****
Sure. I am Jewish. I want a free Palestine. I believe in the fundamental rightness and universality of "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The actions of the state of Israel -- a political entity, not a papal one -- are systematically and intentionally denying the equality, life, and liberty of Palestinians.
I think subjugating a people is a horrible reversal of Judaism as a religion and as a culture of people who deeply understand the experience of subjugation and genocide.
Beyond the moral case, I don't think people who would deny a people's freedom for their own are looking out for their own freedom well, or mine. Jews know in our and our ancestors bones and in the papers every day that when intolerance is in the air, inevitably we're going to be on the list of targets.
I am under no obligation to support the politics and politicians of any country because we share religious or cultural ties. If you don't understand how strange a concept such an obligation would be to Jews, you don't understand Judaism (you don't).
I certainly wouldn't demand that non-Jews support this corrupt Netanyahou and his government. His freedom from prosecution depends on continuing the war. He's spent his life doing everything possible to destroy the prospects for freedom for Palestinians and along the way gutted the very basic foundations of the right of Israel to exist. If a state's existence depends on the forever subjugation of a people, how can it have the right to exist?
But mostly, Dave Beagly, I don't think you have the least basis to be assessing any BS here. Every one of these arguments commands significant support among Jews, including many Israelis, and has been written about widely. If you wanted to know people's reasons, you would already.
And Rightists claim that being anti-BLM is not the same as hating black people.
Since pro-BLM effects seem to have gotten more blacks killed than were ever lynched, seems like a pretty safe bet.
How's that negotiation of hostage return for a possible cease fire going? Hamas refuses to surrender their hostages? Oh, well, perhaps unconditional surrender by Hamas after further military offensive against them is the only viable option for stopping the depredations of Hamas upon the Palestinians. They better negotiate better and faster, or there may not be any Hamas left to negotiate. That will settle at least one problem the Palestinians suffer under currently. Then the winners of the war Gaza's government started can decide what happens to the losing government, its combatants, its people, and the territory lost by the losing side. Again.
Just so everyone is clear -
Jews have been living in Judaea (Israel) constantly as back as there is recorded history. The Temple mount that seems to be so controversial is the foundation of the JEWISH Temple built there thousands of years ago. Eventually it was destroyed by the Babylonians and the majority of the people were exiled, with a minority continuing to live there. Eventually in an event never seen before in recorded history, an exiled people two generations later returned to their homeland intact and rebuilt the Temple. There they lived still under the Jewish government, until Roman times when Rome destroyed the Temple and exiled the people with many exiled but many continuing to live in Israel. In additional to physically destroying the Temple, Rome additionally renamed Judaea "Palestine," as they called their administrative states, so as to try to mitigate the Jewish connection to the land at least in name. "Palestinians" that far back meant "Jews." If you look before the establishment of the modern secular state of Israel, "Palestinian" meant Jews and we see the Magen David on all things "Palestinian," appeals for charity, the Palestinian symphony, etc. "Palestine" meant "Jewish land" right up until the establishment of the secular state.
The Jewish population continued in Israel as various empires dominated, most recently the Ottoman Empire. Eventually the Great Powers divided the Middle East with Britain in charge of the Jewish lands. During Britain's administration, Muslim terrorism against Jews was frequent and horrifying, predating the establishment of the modern secular State of Israel.
Living in the land has always been the dream of all Jews. And so eventually we had the Balfour Declaration with the goal of setting up the historical land of Israel for the Jews and the other side of the Jordan river - that side of the Transjordan - for the Muslims living in the land. Jews being charitable, there were drives to raise money for the purchase of the land. Money was raised and land purchased and Jews outside of Israel began returning in greater numbers to build the land. And so it went.
In 1948 the government declared Israel to be a nation state, all the surrounding Arab nations attacked, with the goal of murdering every Jew man, woman, and child, and the Arabs taking over their homes and other possessions. G-d intervened and this tiny nation with few arms and no real army defended the entire combined power of every surrounding Arab nation. In that defensive war they gained a bit of land. The Arabs, in their blood lust, repeated this again in 1967 and in 1973 with each time G-d Himself intervening and protecting His chosen people, with the Jews in fighting literally for their lives gaining land in defense. The Jews pleaded with the Muslims in their borders to fight with them but they saw an opportunity to kill Jews once and for all and gain their possessions so as always the Jews were on their own.
In 1967 this involved gaining Judaea and Samaria which came with it a lot of Muslims who continue to do all in their power to kill Jews.
In terms of Jews who are anti-Zionist, there is an enormous but subtle distinction. There are Jews who believe that a Jewish nation-state is legitimate only with the coming of the Messiah and the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. They love Jews. They love Judaism. They love Israel. Their only objection is that the secular nation-state of Israel is not the ideal and they object to it because they say the only legitimate nation-state Israel comes with the Messiah. Otherwise they support fully Israel, the army, etc. There is a TINY number - probably <1000 worldwide - who make allegiance with enemies of civilation. No one takes them seriously and no one except antisemites make cause with them.
Daniel - you wrote " I want a free Palestine. I believe in the fundamental rightness and universality of "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The actions of the state of Israel -- a political entity, not a papal one -- are systematically and intentionally denying the equality, life, and liberty of Palestinians.
I think subjugating a people is a horrible reversal of Judaism as a religion and as a culture of people who deeply understand the experience of subjugation and genocide."
You know no one wants to be their policeman. The Israeli govt has tried again and again and again to give them land. All they have to do is acknowledge that Jews belong here too. And stop murdering children. Stop torturing women. That's all they have to do. But they won't. I don't know why but that culture seems obsessed with murder and blood. Anyone with eyes sees it.
Are there territorial disputes in Tibet? Yes. Do they murder children? No.
Are there territorial disputes in India and Pakistan? Yes. Do they murder children? No.
Are there territorial disputes in Spain? Yes. Do they murder children? No.
And so on.
There's only one culture that does this. Not only do they do this but they rejoice in murdering their OWN CHILDREN as long as they can kill some Jews.
Can you imagine ANY cause being such that you would strap a bomb onto your child and murder them just as long as you could kill some people you hate? Can you imagine hating someone so much that you have no love left for anything good?
Jews in Israel don't want to be the policeman. They want to discover cures for cancer. Or water desalination. Or how to make crops grow more robustly. They would love nothing more than not to have this problem. The problem is they can't ignore it. As is said because it's true - if the Muslims gave up their guns there would be peace. If the Jews did there would be no living Jews.
Anyone with eyes sees this.
Daniel - from today's WSJ. What normal person does this? Only the product of a sick, depraved, disgusting society:
For a week following Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack on Israel, the stench of 300,000 rotting chickens rose from Kibbutz Alumim, 2 miles from the Gaza border. Three coops were burned to the ground, but they weren’t the source of the smell. Terrorists had destroyed the automated food and water dispensers for the remaining five structures housing the flock, and after the attack no one was around to tend to the chickens. The birds died of hunger and thirst, and their bodies decomposed. Residents who returned to survey the damage wore masks as they scooped up and buried the corpses to prevent the spread of disease.
The human tragedy of Oct. 7 still grips the country and is compounded by another kind of devastation Hamas inflicted on Israel. Danielle Abraham, executive director of Volcani International Partnerships, a nongovernmental organization that addresses global hunger using Israeli technological innovation, calls it “agricultural terrorism.”
Terrorists targeted farmland, livestock, plants and infrastructure as they made their way across the western Negev, which produces roughly 70% of the country’s vegetables, 20% of its fruit and 6% of its milk. “The attack was designed to intentionally destroy agricultural production, but more than that, it was meant to destroy the identity of the region, to break the community,” Ms. Abraham says.
Hamas terrorists damaged greenhouses and barns, many beyond repair. They slashed crop nets and flooded orchards. They burned irrigation pipes and shot at fertigation systems. They destroyed the filtration system for the local reservoir. Soil compaction and pollution from Israeli tanks brought in to expel the terrorists has also damaged roughly 10% of the area’s land.
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