३ जानेवारी, २०२४

"Historically, children did not automatically get their fathers’ surnames, and customs vary in other parts of the world."

"In England, until the 18th century, surnames were fluid, and it was common for children to have their mother’s or grandmother’s last name.... In many Spanish-speaking countries, a child is given two last names, one from each parent.... More common in the United States is hyphenating.... Many parents said the logistics of having different names — like at school or when traveling — hadn’t been a big obstacle. For some, questions had been welcome.... 'It does seem to confuse some people, but I kind of love that about it.... It actually solidifies the decision even more, because I like that we are helping to normalize different naming conventions.' One longstanding way for parents to include the mother’s lineage is to give children her surname as a middle name...."

From "Why Parents Give Their Children a Last Name Other Than the Father’s/Some American parents have been breaking the patrilineal tradition for generations, but the number who do so remains small" (NYT).

६३ टिप्पण्या:

Lloyd W. Robertson म्हणाले...

In Quebec I believe the government started to mandate hyphenated surnames, both parents, because a high proportion of the population had a relatively small number of surnames, going back to the 1600s. Hyphenation means in effect that more distinct surnames are available.

Whiskeybum म्हणाले...

If the parents wish to break with tradition in order to extend the maternal family name, then one method that comes to mind that I’ve not heard proposed is to use the paternal family name for sons and the maternal family name for daughters.This avoids the cumbersome multiple/hyphenated last name situation.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

I was listening the other day to ... [searches] BWV 106 piano four hands transcription played by

Víkingur Ólafsson and Halla Oddný Magnúsdóttir

The Crack Emcee म्हणाले...

They've got him out of the house, and out of their lives, so it's the logical next step.

Stick म्हणाले...

Girl power!

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

Things I considered, participating in the naming of babies:

1. As between the parents' last names, pick the more aesthetically pleasing one.

2. Combine the parents' last names into a new portmanteau name (but reject it if it's not aesthetically pleasing, such as, in our case, "Henhouse" or "Altco").

3. Go back into the surnames of both parents' families, and just pick the most aesthetically pleasing one. In my case, I had "Hollocker" and "Battersea." He had "Fiddle."

4. Invent a new name, as great as you can think up. Parents could both change their name to that too.

gilbar म्हणाले...

'It does seem to confuse some people, but I kind of love that about it.

I knew a stoner chick, back in the '90's, that named her daughter: "Basil Rain".
Which was a completely original name, having nothing to do with
a) the baby daddy's name
b) her own name
c) ANY type of sense (common, or otherwise).. WHAT the THE HELL IS BASIL RAIN?

The mom LOVED it! it showed that SHE was a "non-conformist". Never heard what the kid (now 30?) thought

Sebastian म्हणाले...

OT, sorry:

"BWV 106 piano four hands transcription"

Nice, but the original is so much better.

fairmarketvalue म्हणाले...

lol. Yet another liberal 1st World problem.

rehajm म्हणाले...

Corky Sherwood-Forrest

rehajm म्हणाले...

I’m pro double barreled surnames but anti hyphen…

Michael Fitzgerald म्हणाले...

Leftists destroy societies, and one way they do that is by destroying the heritage, history, and traditions of the successful society that they seek to replace with their Year One ethos. Repudiating the history and success of traditional behaviors is one tool they use, importing a mass migration of foreigners without any ties to a nation and its people is another tool in the destruction of a cohesive society, and this ultimately leads to what every single anti-social, leftist ideology arrives at: civil war and mass murder. Show me one time in history in history that it hasn't, please.

Randomizer म्हणाले...

It actually solidifies the decision even more, because I like that we are helping to normalize different naming conventions.

That makes me like this person even less because any kind of cultural norms or customs must be abolished. Don't want to foster societal harmony.

CJinPA म्हणाले...

As long as I can remember, I've been awed by the tradition of women and children taking the last name of the husband/father. I still look at mail for my children, with my last name on it, and it's pretty powerful.

Like most traditions, it was probably practical. Notice they note that "historically" this was not the practice. But it was at the time when written records became more common. Practicality.

I like that we are helping to normalize different

Sums up the century-long Progressive Movement in one remark.

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

One advantage of double surnames is that it makes an entire name more unique- you aren't just John Doe, but John Roe-Doe. It is also one of the disadvantages if you prefer more anonymity.

Of course, you mom might decide to name you Yancey instead.

J L Oliver म्हणाले...

As a past school administrator, I hated creative last names! It created havoc with the filing systems. Now I am in private practice I have a better way of doing it, but still billing and names must be carefully matched.

Ampersand म्हणाले...

Isn't the naming custom a means of tying the father to the child? Male primates, left to their own devices, are rather less sentimental about their offspring than female primates.

Malcolm Phoenix म्हणाले...

"You want a beautiful name? Soda."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2_e-3RrIkM&t=30s

Barbara म्हणाले...

In the South particularly, a surname from the maternal side is used as a first or middle name, mostly for girls. Lovely. No hyphenates for me.

Rocco म्हणाले...

Ann Althouse said...
"As between the parents' last names, pick the more aesthetically pleasing one."

If I had taken my wife's surname, I would have the same first + last name as a porn star.

Kate म्हणाले...

"If the parents wish to break with tradition in order to extend the maternal family name, then one method that comes to mind that I’ve not heard proposed is to use the paternal family name for sons and the maternal family name for daughters."

This is called bilinial naming, and we, being the obnoxious hippies we were, practiced it. Our poor daughter has suffered ever since.

Rocco म्हणाले...

Ampersand said...
"Isn't the naming custom a means of tying the father to the child? Male primates, left to their own devices, are rather less sentimental about their offspring than female primates."

Mama's baby; daddy's maybe.

MayBee म्हणाले...

I really like having my little family all have the same last name, and letting the world know we are a family.


I guess in a society where fewer and fewer families are intact, it will make all those blended (and never-were) families feel better if nobody had a naming convention???

Jaq म्हणाले...

I like that my surname goes back to an arrival in New York in 1680. I like that I can feel part of the sweep of history, but I suppose that that is kind of rare and certainly there are a lot of arguments against it that are logical. When did the colonial Dutch girl that the founder of our line married arrive here? What tiny percentage of my DNA comes from that couple? But ultimately, the nonce family name crowd offers nothing to make up for the sense of place tradition offers, and maybe that’s their plan.

0_0 म्हणाले...

Hyphenizing and others work for one generation bit get unwieldy fast.

0_0 म्हणाले...

Had an error, so I hope this isn’t a repeat:
Hyphenation might work for set of parents, but it gets unwieldy very fast.

AlbertAnonymous म्हणाले...

First, I’m calling BS on this:

“In England, until the 18th century, surnames were fluid, and it was common for children to have their mother’s or grandmother’s last name…”

It’s the NYT, they get nothing right. And this just “fits the narrative”.

Second, sure, let’s throw out tradition in the name of progress. Let’s hyphenate all the last names. In three generations the kids’ names I’ll be impossible to read or write:

Karen Smith-Jones-Wilson-Johnson-Sanchez-Jimenez-Wozniak-Czarnek.

Third, what did progressives use to read-by at night before candles?

Electricity

AlbertAnonymous म्हणाले...

And why keep calling it a “surname” ? Bigots. We need to start calling it a “ma’am-name” or maybe a “her-name”.

So little progress with you people…

Fritz म्हणाले...

Without a surname, what would the name of the blog be, Ann?

n.n म्हणाले...

Not my father? I don't owe you. Not my mother. #HerToo

Ice Nine म्हणाले...

Ancestry .com hardest hit.

n.n म्हणाले...

We could progress with clan names, geographical identities, or perhaps physiological origins.

n.n of woman... womb.

Fred Drinkwater म्हणाले...

My wife once encountered a flight attendant, and remarked that she should have married me, to yield the ultimate hyphenated name:
"Drybread-Drinkwater"

n.n म्हणाले...

Mary has a mother, another female guardian, a third female guardian, etc., and an absentee father... sperm donor. #SocialProgress

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

'Ancestry .com hardest hit.'

Great observation.

-- John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt

ColoComment म्हणाले...

SDaly said... 1/3/24, 9:50 AM
You may find this interesting.

"Patronymics were constantly used in rural Sweden and among day laborers in urban centers until around 1860, when it became more fashionable to adopt a "frozen" or permanent family surname. ... Gradually, however, people bagan to substitute their patronymic surname with their father's patronymic surname as a permanent fixture. The children of a family, however, would not necessarily all change at the same time. Thus, some sons in the family of ANDERS OLSSON would call themselves ANDERSSON and others OLSSON, while some daughters would adopt the surname of ANDERSDOTTER and some OLSSON.
"As there was no law to govern the taking of a permanent surname -- the law did not come until 1901 -- one really does not know what suname a person born about 1860-1900 took. Only the records will reveal it. Even the record keeper -- the parish minister -- may not have known what last name a person went by. Very often in birth records for this period entries similar to the following are found:
Lars, född 16/8 1889 i Österäker, Söd. 1. son till torparen Eric Persson o h h Cajsa Olofsdotter, which translated reads:
Lars, born 16 August 1889 at Osteräker parish [], Södermanland county [], the son of the crofter Eric Persson and his wife [] Cajsa Olofsdotter.
What of the last name of Lars? Is it Ersson or Eriksson, Persson or Petersson?"
-- Cradled in Sweden. Carl-Erik Johansson. 2002. Page 32, 33.

During research (in ArchivDigital) into my ex's Swedish family I found one family listed in the parish register where the children were listed at birth with one of three different surnames.

Laughing Fox म्हणाले...

The plan had been for the married woman's name to become "first name, mother's last name, father's last name." So, when Annie Smith marries Bob Jones, she becomes Annie Smith Jones.

A surname is a family name; it reflects at last some of the history of the family. Why deliberately destroy your own or your child's history?

sean म्हणाले...

That is, of course, simply not true that children in early modern England did not normally receive their father's last name. Ask any genealogist or social historian. Daniel Dennett once wrote that one sign of a good idea is that it doesn't need to be promoted with lies: the Times has never heard that rule.

n.n म्हणाले...

surname (n.)

c. 1300, "additional name; a name, title, or epithet added to a person's baptismal or Christian name," from sur "above" (from Latin super-; see sur- (1)) + name (n.). The word is modeled or Englished from on Anglo-French surnoun "surname" (early 14c.), a variant of Old French sornom, from sur "over" + nom "name." Surnoun also was used in Middle English. Also compare nickname.

Usually derived from a quality, achievement, or place, the surnames tended to be passed down and become family names. Hence the word took the sense of "a family name, a last name" by late 14c.

Hereditary surnames existed among Norman nobility in England in early 12c., among the common people they began to be used 13c., increasingly frequent until near universal by end of 14c. The process was later in the north of England than the south.

An Old English word for this was freonama, etymologically "free name;" also tonama "surname, nickname," literally "to-name." The verb is attested from 1510s, "give an additional name to."
- etymonline.com

Lewis म्हणाले...

Having a long last name made even longer when hyphenated eventually gets annoying. Just think how much more time you will waste writing and typing your name. It gets worse if it's also hard to spell or pronounce. It's just not practical long-term.

Static Ping म्हणाले...

This very much feels like a solution in search of a problem.

Or, more likely, an effort to break tradition for "progressive" reasons. Give it a decade and it will be against the law in California.

RigelDog म्हणाले...

We have a somewhat unusual last name, and my husband is the only person left in his entire extended family with this name. We have a grown daughter and son; daughter is married and is getting on with the process of having progeny. She loved her last name; her husband did NOT like his last name---so he changed his name to hers when they married. Now they have a son and it's kinda cool to know that our name is living on.

Soon, we will take over the world!

Bruce Hayden म्हणाले...

“In England, until the 18th century, surnames were fluid, and it was common for children to have their mother’s or grandmother’s last name…”

Not credible. My last name comes from a Norman knight, circa 1100 - Thomas de (of) Highdown. It’s the name, still used, of a place in England. I know this partly because I own the .com domain name and get periodic emails directed at people from there. Nope, try Highdown.uk, .net, etc. Over the next 500 years, it evolved trough Heydon to Haydon, to Hayden around 1600. The Haydons were closely intermarried with the Boylens, which was convenient when one of them was on the throne. My partner’s last name is French. Family came over about the same time (~1630), but to what is now French speaking Canada, and later to New Orleans. It’s been traced at least as ar back as 1300, though family lone has it going back much further.

My mother was a Judson. Son of Judd. The name goes back at least to 1600. Likely earlier. First Judson came over a couple years after the first Hayden, in the 1630s. Her direct ancestor was a Captain in the CN militia during the Revolutionary War, and made joining the DAR easy. As noted above, Norman last names tended to be related to place names. Saxon last names tended to be occupations: Cook (Cooke), Bowman, Tailor (Tayler), etc. or patronymics like Judson, Thompson etc. best friend is a Boardman, who was the man who put up boards at festivals rom which people ate. A lot of those avocations have been obsolete for many centuries.

Apparently though, one nationality that is confusing are the Welsh, who for a long time used the father’s first name as a last ame, until relatively recently. Mother’s mother was a Merideth, and her linage prior to 1800 or so is hard to follow as a result. It’s not like following, son to father, the Haydens, Haydons, then Heydons back to Thomas de Heydon (Highdown) around 1100.

My daughter had no interest in hyphenated names, because the kid ahead of her, alphabetically, from grades 3-12, had a 16 character hyphenated name. Hers would have been longer. At radiation, that kid’s name took up two lines o the program, when everyone else’s took up one. Moreover, think about how often you have to write or spell out your name throughout your life. My partner’s is bad enough at 9 characters - over the phone I inevitably have to do it 2 or 3 times. Mine is easy - out west there is usually a well known Hayden place name I can refer to (once in Scottsdale, I pointed out to the street that the business was on). If you give the technician at the pharmacy your 16 character hyphenated last name, they will inevitably screw it up, and never find you I their database. My ex wife’s (unhyphenated) last name was 14 characters long, and people screwed it up routinely. She figured that it was the length that intimidated everyone. My partner’s 9 character foreig (French) last name is bad enough.

Narr म्हणाले...

I got my mother's family name for my middle, but am the only one of nine of my generation to have it . . . my youngest brother got our mother's mother's family name for his.

My wife got only a first and last name from her parents, and was delighted to use three in her professional life after we got married.

The great Danish composer Carl Nielsen was the first in his family to be named the modern way, IIRC, and that as recently as the 1860s.

Forgive dupes--blogger is being a jerk.

iowan2 म्हणाले...

Sounds like people need to re-visit the axiom of Chesterton's fence.

'Do not tear down a fence, until you understand why it was erected.'

Smilin' Jack म्हणाले...

I like the hyphenation approach. After only 20 generations children will have last names over a million names long. Say my name!

Enigma म्हणाले...

Iceland has the most confounding family names of any place I know: each member of a family can have a different surname.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Iceland_Naming_Customs
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Iceland_Naming_Customs#/media/File:Iceland_Patronymic_Surnames.jpg

Many English family names relate to occupations, and were a descriptive of the people "Joseph the weaver" or "John the potter", or "Robert the baker", etc. Many others are place names.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/England_Surnames_Derived_from_Occupations,_Ranks_-_International_Institute

Occupational surnames cover all the common occupations of Mediaeval Europe: agricultural, manufacturing and retail with surnames like Bacon (pork butcher), Baker, Brewer, Cheesman, Cooper, Fisher, Fletcher (arrowmaker), Gardiner, Glover, Ironmonger, Kellogg (‘kill hog’ a pork butcher), Mason, Miller, Slater, Spicer, Spurrier (spur maker), Tapper (wine merchant, also weaver of carpets), Turner, Woodward (in charge of forests). Those who made things include a long list with the suffixes -maker like Bowmaker, Shoemaker, and Slaymaker (shuttles for weavers), and -wright, mainly workers in wood, such as Arkwright (chests), Boatwright, Cartwright, Shipwright and Wainwright (wagons) who featured prominently in the local scene. A herd looked after animals as in Calvert (calves), Cowherd or Coward (cows), Goddard (goats), Neatherd (oxen), Shepherd (sheep), Stoddard (stud of horses), and Swinnart (swine) and the generic Heard, Herd, and Hird. The importance of the English wool trade is indicated by the number of surnames coming from it. Weaver, Webb, Webber and Webster were involved in weaving. Those who treated woollen cloth have given us three surnames, Fuller, Tucker, and Walker, as these were the dialect terms in the south and east, the southwest, and the west and north respectively. Dying cloth is represented by Dexter, Dyer and Lister, also from different dialects. Card, Kempster, and Tozer were part of the carding process, and Sherman would have sheared either the sheep or the finished cloth.

Rocco म्हणाले...

Lewis said...
“Having a long last name made even longer when hyphenated eventually gets annoying. Just think how much more time you will waste writing and typing your name. It gets worse if it's also hard to spell or pronounce. It's just not practical long-term.”

You mean Corinna Abatescianni and Giovanni Squarcialupi shouldn’t go with a hyphenated married name?

Rocco म्हणाले...

“In many Spanish-speaking countries, a child is given two last names, one from each parent.”

But the father’s apellido paterno is the one that gets passed down through the generations. Jose Garcia’s grandchildren through his sons will still carry the Garcia name. There area a few exceptions, but those are special cases.

Jamie म्हणाले...

If the parents wish to break with tradition in order to extend the maternal family name, then one method that comes to mind that I’ve not heard proposed is to use the paternal family name for sons and the maternal family name for daughters

We did this. Unlike Kate's daughter, our daughter has always been fine with it - and indeed has found it amusing at times not to be automatically associated with her brothers.

It arose this way: I had been briefly married very young, and had hyphenated. It was a giant pain in the patoot - and then again to change it back when I got divorced. So when I married my husband, whose relationship with his deadbeat father was such that he had zero attachment to his own last name, I just kept my maiden name.

When we decided to start having kids, my husband said he didn't want me to be the only one with my last name - it made him feel as if he was "stuck with all the responsibility," while I was "free." (I want to emphasize that this was before we actually had kids, and also to note for the record that he is a stellar father to our three.) So he proposed the boys-his last name, girls-my last name thing. I left it up to him; our first was boy, so - traditional. Our second was a girl and I didn't know how he decided to proceed until I had to sign the birth certificate or whatever the paperwork was.

It caused some confusion, particularly at our dentist's office for some reason, early on. Lately, none at all.

I'm wondering what our daughter, who is in a serious relationship with a moderately conservative young man, will decide to do.

Gospace म्हणाले...

"In England, until the 18th century, surnames were fluid, and it was common for children to have their mother’s or grandmother’s last name...

Always love it when absolute lies are presented as truth. 18th century would be the 1700s. And the US and Canada were growing both from both immigration- mostly British, and children being born.

Using the site freereg.org.uk jut searched baptisms for my surname from 1500-1700- 13 entries where the child's name is the fathers. First in 1633. Now there are several variations on the name- spelling was far from uniform. Variation 1: 12 entries first in 1613. Variation 2: 36 entries first in 1565. 1565! A little before the 18th century- bearing the father's name. Variation 3: 45 entries, first in 1592.

I can trace my Wade ancestors back to Armagil Waad born 1511 in England, my 11th great-grandfather. And following down the line, all known children bear his surname- with spelling variations. His is a well documented family. Of course, the actual relationship depends on the wives all having been faithful...

That tradition in the British Isles has been around for quite a bit longer then the article says. Obviously, not universal around the world.

RNB म्हणाले...

Mandate DNA testing on newborns and put the REAL father's name on the birth certificate.

Mary Beth म्हणाले...

their mother’s or grandmother’s last name

So, their grandfather's or great-grandfather's last name.

Narr म्हणाले...

It used to be said that maternity is a fact, but paternity is an opinion.

Good times.

Josephbleau म्हणाले...

In England and Spain the main reason for having a double or hyphenated name was for a grasping cousin to claim a more prestigious family heritage. This never works as the real nobility always laughs at you. Remember the parable of the guest at the wedding.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

I take human rights seriously. You know, everybody's equal, color, creed or circumstance. We're all the same on this planet. - Except the Chinese.

- What?

No, they are. They're the odd ones out if you had to pick one. No, I'm not having a go. I'm just saying, you know, not their faces.

I mean... No, no.

But they call each other - things like Kwok...

- Stop it. You're gonna...

...and that's their choice, and they don't have to call a kid Kwok.

And they... No.

Some people are called Pong...

- Stop, please, stop.

...and there's about a million Wangs. You can have... You have one kid, you can use all those names on one little... You could call a kid Kwok Pong Wang.

- Ghost Town (2008)

traditionalguy म्हणाले...

Wait until AI reads in all of the Russian novels. Then have it pick names. It might blow up.

As for first names, the Bible is not copy writed. And you can start with Genesis and have 65 to go. I really know a beautiful woman named Genesis. Just avoid Nehemiah for the genetically short boys.

I fear we will soon only get Bill Gates assigned numbers like license plates on cars.

Bunkypotatohead म्हणाले...

Shouldn't the kid get to choose its own name?

Biff म्हणाले...

Obviously, we need to abandon names altogether and switch to numbers. Likewise, we need to do the same with buildings, towns, and other items of interest. It's the only way to de-colonialize!

The only real question is how to represent the numbers. The current Western use of historic Arabic numerals can be seen as cultural appropriation, and Roman numerals can't be used for many obvious reasons. Do we need a numeric equivalent of Esperanto? Is a Base 10 numbering system problematic?

Sincerely,
Fraternity 2-5503

Dave Begley म्हणाले...

My liberal nephew is an academic. He married a Hispanic woman. His new last name has her last name last.

Narr म्हणाले...

"Last name first, first name, middle name last."

MacMacConnell म्हणाले...

I had a friend who was the kind of girl that raised her hand the first day of The History of Western Civ. to asked why why "history" wasn't called "herstory". You all know the type.

When she got married she informed me that she was keeping her maiden name to fight the patriarchy. She got pissed when I asked, How keeping the grandfather's last name fought the patriarchy?

~ Gordon Pasha म्हणाले...

Knew another doctor whose surname was Metzger (butcher, German).