"... in their efforts to replenish the ranks, in some cases pulling men off the streets and whisking them to recruiting centers using intimidation and even physical force.... The harsh tactics are being aimed not just at draft dodgers but at men who would ordinarily be exempt from service — a sign of the steep challenges Ukraine’s military faces maintaining troop levels in a war with high casualties, and against a much larger enemy. Lawyers and activists... point out that recruiters... are not empowered to detain civilians, let alone force them into conscription.... Complicating the issue is the fact that Ukraine has been under martial law since Russia invaded in February 2022; some lawyers contend that this has laid the ground for a subjective interpretation — and abuse — of conscription laws...."
From
"'People Snatchers': Ukraine’s Recruiters Use Harsh Tactics to Fill Ranks/Ukrainian men are reporting incidents of wrongful draft notices, unprofessional medical commissions and coercive mobilization tactics" (NYT).
This article appears at the top of the NYT website right now.
Posts
66 comments:
Several months ago - I read that was true for Russia.
What was the response from all of the war supporters over here, one wonders? Have they all turned into crickets now?
Russian GDP is over 10x that of the Ukraine. Population of Russia is 144 million vs 36 million, Ukraine.
Still no active diplomacy or Peace Talks, though, cuz who needs'em when the US - excuse me, Victoria Nuland - is on your side? Plus, the well's not completely dry yet, there's still skimmin' to be done.
"Being an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but being a friend is fatal."
- Henry Kissinger
This is being true for a long while now.
Months ago, I saw twitted videos of young men taped to light poles on the streets of Kiev. They were refusing to join up and authorities were resorting to humiliation.
Here is another tweet from Nov 20th, nearly a month ago.
You don't have to go to India.
Sounds like Joe needs to send them new soldiers to go along with those weapons …
I stand w Isreal. Leftists, Mullahs, Hamas-Palistinian terrorists can suck it: "Several months ago - I read that was true for Russia."
Yep, but it wasnt true. It was just more BS PR pushed out to increase support for additional funding for Ukraine.
This is similar to the messaging/funding communications/PR strategies that kept us in Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria all this time (20+ years).
"We're turning the corner!". "One more "surge" will do it!"
We've also been reading that somehow, Russia has lost an astonishing 93% of its entire army (an insane lie) while we are also hearing that Putin will be sweeping across Europe if we dont send another $60B to $100B or whatever it takes for as long as it takes.
Obviously, both of these "truths" cant be true...but interestingly, like climate change, whichever "truth" you choose the "solution" is always the same: unlimited funding for Ukraine for an undefined length of time with zero audits and zero metrics for an "undefined" "success".
Funny that.
The progress of ethnic Springs and collateral damage.
Wait, I was told that Ukraine was going to win! In this context, does winning mean that all of the young and middle-aged men in Ukraine are dead?
when you're shanghaing men off the street to serve as cannon fodder, you're not an "army recruiter". You're a slaver.
Anyway, I don't believe this. After reading the MSM For 2 years, I confidently predict Zelensky will soon be marching on Moscow and by Spring dictating terms to Putin. If we give them ANOTHER $100 billion dollars, then Zelensky will do it by end of January.
ANd good to know my tax dollars are NOT going to secure the USA's border, but protecting Ukrainians border. After all, our number 2 priority after "Standing by Isreal" should be killing Russians, because that's what Jesus would do. Thank you joe Biden and Mitt Romney.
It sounds like they need the advice of Winken Blinken and Sullivan last seen giving bad unsolicited advice to Israel's War Cabinet.
So, what's our endgame?
Let's see . . . there's bumper crop business for this country's defense industry, campaign contributions to politicians in favor of blank check aid for Ukraine and graft and corruption for Ukraine officials receiving said aid. What's not to like? Er, except for the poor U.S. taxpayer and the Ukrainian men impressed into the Ukraine armed services to further Zelensky's wet dream of "total victory" over Russia.
“Recruiters”
Just another indication of the immorality of this war. If you have to conscript people to successfully fight a war, you are probably not fighting a war that is worth fighting in the first place.
All the more reason to give them enough advanced weaponry -- and quickly -- that such desperate nation-defending measures won't be so neccessary.
I'm sure I've been reading about such tactics for at least a year now. This is not new. Ukraine has been dragging men- old and young- to 'serve' in their military. A meat grinder.
Re: Aggie:
Still no active diplomacy or Peace Talks, though, cuz who needs'em when the US - excuse me, Victoria Nuland - is on your side?
Why would Russia be interested in diplomacy at this point? The war is going pretty well for them. The Ukraine is approaching the point of total exhaustion. And it's still not prepared to offer any concessions. Yes, the US and EU aren't pushing them to offer up anything either, but we don't actually control the Ukraine (contra Russian propaganda), and they make their own decisions.
Do you think all the pro-war people who virtue signaled Ukrainian flags in their social media profiles keep up with developments?
Instead of saying they were Shanghaied should we say they were Kieved?
“I read that was true for Russia.”
Just like the Democrats, the Ukrainians’ every accusation is a confession. They have been lying to us. A couple of weeks ago satellite images showed that a Patriot battery that had come under attack by a swarm of low observable drones went missing, two days later came an emergency delivery of another battery taken from Poland, and last night Kiev got slammed again by hypersonic missiles. The Russians claim now that four Patriot batteries have been destroyed, and Ukraine claims to have shot down nearly every hypersonic missile the Russians launched. Meanwhile the Pentagon has put out bids for an AD system capable of handling hypersonics.
Remember 1964 when liberals were sure that they had to defeat Goldwater because he would start WWIII, then LBJ frogmarched the flower of our youth to Viet Nam? Every accusation is a confession with these people. They also claimed that Trump would start WWIII, and yet here Biden has dragged us to the brink. At some point we have to stop believing their lies.
The WSJ had an article a week or so ago, about a elite unit (brigade, i think) that was
* Armed and Trained by american army personnel in germany..
* Equipped with Bradleys and Leopard IIs..
* Sent into combat in proper american tactics..
* annihilated in the spring "offensive"..
* pulled out and reformed with fresh draftees (with about 3 months basic training)..
The (formerly) elite unit, is now a basic infantry unit; that crawls* through the mud and snow.
Oh, and the average age in the unit is about 40 now. Where have All the Young Men GONE?
crawls* turns out; that Leopard II's and Bradleys don't last long in Actual Combat
Surely this news can't be true. I was assured by all the best people that Russia would run out of ammunition by May 2022.
“Guess what. It’s not working.”
—- Joe “the Shit Whisperer” Biden
Defence lawyers suggest a defendant clean up and dress up for trial. Ukraine cleaned up a bit to get American money.
Zelensky bought a nice house in Egypt. So there's that.
The Russia-Ukraine War is about where World War I was in December 1815. The front lines weren't changing much but there would be three more years of killing and destruction. Time to face facts: Ukraine is never going to get back the parts in the east that Russia unjustly took.
Re: Roger Sweeny:
The Russia-Ukraine War is about where World War I was in December 1815. The front lines weren't changing much but there would be three more years of killing and destruction. Time to face facts: Ukraine is never going to get back the parts in the east that Russia unjustly took.
It might be the Great War in miniature. But Zelensky might be thinking of it like the Second Sino-Japanese War in ~1940. The situation is dire, and the defenders can't beat back the invaders under their own power. The lightning advances of 1937-1938 have turned to slow, grinding progress for the Imperial Japanese Army, with small but costly attacks and counterattacks. But if the war expands to involve the US and the Great Powers directly, things could turn around dramatically, as it (eventually) did for China after Japan attacked the British, Dutch, and American colonies in 1941. I think that's the turning point Zelensky is waiting for. Begging for handouts and charity from the developed world is just a bridge to ensure his government survives to that point.
And I really do think that's their play -- on multiple occasions the Ukrainian government has put out falsehoods about Russia striking targets in NATO countries (specifically Poland and Roumania) and striking the Nordstream pipeline (ludicrous accusation, but Western governments played along indulgently). And to bait Russia, I think they've tried to make it look like attacks have been launched from NATO territory, e.g. by attacking an airfield close to the Lithuanian border. Both Russia and NATO are keen to avoid a direct clash for obvious, nuclear reasons. But the Ukraine faces destruction either way, and NATO involvement at least offers them a hope of complete victory.
It’s pretty clear that Ukraine dragged the war out until it was certain that they would lose. When it looked like they had a lot more fight in them, they were in a stronger negotiating position; sometimes it’s better to make the deal and never show your cards.
Now it’s clear that Russia is going to try to take back everything that was Russian before Lenin created the Soviet Republic of Ukraine. Ukraine will leave with what they brought in, plus the part of Poland that Hitler and Stalin gave them.
No soldiers to be had. But all they need is our money.....
I'm so confused. Can you help me understand this Brandon?
The press gang, previously conscripted themselves, enjoys conscripting new enlistees even more because they were already forced to join, themselves.
Consequences are for the little people...
So, what's our endgame?
After the past 40 years of virtually endless war in the Middle East, Afghanistan, etc., why would you believe there is an "endgame" other than continuous, non-stop highly profitable war?
The Role of Naval Impressment in the American Revolution
Maritime workers who were basically kidnapped into the British Royal Navy were a key force in the War of Independence.
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as long as they are not put on ships 'US founding principles' should be otay
Instead of saying they were Shanghaied should we say they were Kieved?
========
were they chicken for refusing to join up?
Neither side is in particularly good shape. Russia's military is a hollowed-out shell of the Soviet army, led by incompetents, forced to use substandard equipment, suffered with surprisingly little manpower given their population, and dependent on mercenaries and criminal cannon fodder. The Ukraine was always outnumbered and at the disadvantage in just about every way other than fighting spirit and being on the defensive.
My assumption is the New York Times is only reporting this because the Democratic Party has given up on Biden and they have been instructed to sand bag him.
The thing about war is you know exactly how it is going to go, until you don't. We all knew Russia would be in Kiev within a month (didn't happen), then we knew that the Ukranian offensive would breakthrough the Russian defenses (didn't happen), and now we are here. If the war lasts long enough, the side that is losing will figure out how to counter their enemy. When it isn't attrition that makes the decision, it is being the last one to counter the other effectively.
I'm not sure what a Russian victory would like at this point. If they setup a puppet government, good luck propping that up long term. If they occupy the country, they do not really have the resources to make that happen. The most likely "victory" would be annexation of the eastern provinces, which they already de facto control, and Crimea, which they have already annexed. Frankly, all Russian victories look like defeats.
Having never been to Ukraine or Russia I can claim, like I believe the consensus here is, that everything said by both sides is propaganda. We will know the truth when everyone stops talking about the whole mess.
@Balfegor - Interesting idea. But if Zelensky thinks he can get the US and the EU to send troops and be "involve[d] ... directly", he is deluded. Modern Europe just isn't like that, and the US is post-Iraq and post-Afghanistan.
Those bullied into combat have a way of fragging their officers. Then, maybe a year or generation later, a way fragging their political leaders.
You reap what you sow. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
The only surprising thing is that the NYT is giving this very old (ht: Temujin) story top billing now. Perhaps the state security press is preparing the ground for what looks like the inevitable debacle of this misguided US meddling in the Ukrainian Civil War. I wonder how long it will take for the NYT to bring back the endless stream of Ukrainian Nazi stories that were commonplace in the press before it became wrongthink to talk about this.
The only surprising thing is that the NYT is giving this very old (ht: Temujin) story top billing now. Perhaps the state security press is preparing the ground for what looks like the inevitable debacle of this misguided US meddling in the Ukrainian Civil War. I wonder how long it will take for the NYT to bring back the endless stream of Ukrainian Nazi stories that were commonplace in the press before it became wrongthink to talk about this.
Balfegor, good points.
All I really want is for everybody who insists on waving yellow and blue pom-poms to acknowledge that getting the Russians out of Ukraine entirely is going to take actual NATO combat power, not just money and weapons.
Do I sense a turning of the wheel? Well, the Big Guy got his 10% and Mitch McConnell is well fixed for his retirement. Maybe it's time to turn off the propaganda machine before it gets too ridiculous.
in Colombia, back in the 1990s, many young men tried to dodge the draft, so often police would stop them and check their draft status.
My adopted son who was visiting his birth family got picked up after a party and taken to a holding area in a nearby city since he had no proof of his draft status. Luckily he had a cousin who was a cop, and arranged to bring him his US Passport and he was released.
In other words, it isn't just something that is happening in the Ukraine.
Jupiter said...
Zelensky bought a nice house in Egypt. So there's that.
That's pure conspiracist disinformation.
Althouse; nota bene. Your blog, being used for social media-originated conspiracy theories of the worst kind.
Yancey Ward said...
Just another indication of the immorality of this war. If you have to conscript people to successfully fight a war, you are probably not fighting a war that is worth fighting in the first place.
Just wondering. Are you including the United States and WW2 in that?
i just finished trying to get through wikipedia's History of Ukraine..
and i have a Serious Question: Was there EVER an actual Country of the Ukraine?
It seems like it was ALWAYS either:
a)part of someone else (often Poland! Go Figure!), or
b)a puppet entity put up by someone else (often Russia)
Am i missing something? I GUESS there was, Golden Age of Kievan Rus'
During the 10th and 11th centuries, Kievan Rus' became the largest and most powerful state in Europe, a period known as its Golden Age
The modern nations of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine all claim Kievan Rus' as their cultural ancestor, with Belarus and Russia deriving their names from it. At its greatest extent in the mid-11th century, Kievan Rus' stretched from the White Sea in the north to the Black Sea in the south and from the headwaters of the Vistula in the west to the Taman Peninsula in the east, uniting the East Slavic tribes.
But the thing IS.. That seems to be FAR MORE about RUSSIA than about the Ukraine..
Seriously, the Ukraine SEEMS to be either part of Poland, or Austria.. And BOTH seem to have TAKEN it from the Russians.
Anybody want to set me straight? What IS this "Ukraine"??
Now, to be Fair..
i Am aware that the area now called The Ukraine is FULL of important natural resources..
Most importantly, one of the largest stockpiles of HOT blondes in the world
Lem the artificially intelligent (9:59am):
As I recall, the young men taped to light poles were not in fact draft-dodgers, they were looters. With the nightly bomb, missile, and rocket attacks on civilian neighborhoods (a war crime, of course), many Ukrainians, especially those with children, have moved further from the border, or out of the big cities, to escape. Those guys were caught breaking into the refugees' houses and stealing stuff. They were lucky only to be humiliated. In many times and place they would have been shot.
Yancey Ward (10:25am):
"Just another indication of the immorality of this war. If you have to conscript people to successfully fight a war, you are probably not fighting a war that is worth fighting in the first place."
We had conscription in World War II, and hundreds of thousands of men were investigated for draft-dodging. Ergo, fighting Hitler was immoral? Something wrong with your logic there.
Roger Sweeny (11:37am):
"The Russia-Ukraine War is about where World War I was in December 1815." Ninety-nine years in the future?
Lawcruitr (4:01pm):
Maybe the NYT gave up on the Ukrainian Nazi angle when they realized that Ukrainian Nazis are all low-ranking losers with no friends in high places, though the government allows them to fight in the military, while the far-more-numerous Russian Nazis are in tight with Putin. Most obvious example: Prigozhin and Utkin, founders of Wagner, had visible Nazi tattoos, but were close friends and allies of Putin until they decided to march on Moscow in June. There are literally dozens of other examples.
P.S. I’m not sure whether it’s more hilarious than it is disgusting, or more disgusting than it is hilarious, to see everyone lapping up a New York Times story here as the Gospel truth, and just two posts above it saying things like this "The NYT's writers are constantly gaslighting everyone and lying" and "the insane NYT's bizzaro world"
Yes, most of the ranting on that thread is specifically about Krugman, but I don't see anyone saying "except for Krugman, NYT is really not bad". No, it's always awful and horribly dishonest except when it feeds your delusions about Ukraine.
Ukraine >> The mainstream view claims that the "Ukraine" means marches, frontier regions, and borderland
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e.g. Texas is 'Ukraine' as per DC elites view
Re: Dr. Weevil:
P.S. I’m not sure whether it’s more hilarious than it is disgusting, or more disgusting than it is hilarious, to see everyone lapping up a New York Times story here as the Gospel truth, and just two posts above it saying things like this "The NYT's writers are constantly gaslighting everyone and lying" and "the insane NYT's bizzaro world"
I think it's a combination of (a) this story isn't new, just new for the NYT. For example, here is an article from November:
The recruitment process largely takes place out of the public eye. Draft officers stop men in the street, at the metro or at checkpoints and hand out call-up papers to them, instructing to report to recruitment centres.
Over the last year, social media videos occasionally surface showing draft officers dragging away or threatening men they want to mobilise causing public outcry.
And of course, the videos of press gangs dragging people away referenced have circulated on Twitter long before, although like anything else, one has to be a bit skeptical of how anything on either side is presented as both governments are completely untrustworthy and their respective supporters don't care about the truth -- they have a war to win first.
And (b), there's a bit of "admission against interest." NYT has been pro-Ukraine (or at least, reliably anti-Russian), so in the same way that it would be more credible if some pro-Russian newspaper (Pravda or whatever) started reporting negative news for Russia, it would tend to be more credible than when they're reporting happy talk for their side.
How exactly are we supposed to tell the difference between press gangs dragging away unwilling recruits and (e.g.) undercover policemen arresting drug dealers, or military police arresting traitors who've been transmitting troop locations to the Russians? When this all came up on Twitter months ago, a lot of Ukrainians said that films of the latter two were being falsely labeled as the first one. Seems plausible. We've all seen a vast number of examples of such fraud on Twitter: ruined buildings labeled 'Gaza' that were actually in Syria, a ship on fire said to have been hit by a Houthi missile last week that actually caught fire years ago off Sri Lanka, hundreds more. In short, one "has to be" much more than "a bit skeptical".
Dr. Weevil,
It is a statement against interest- that is why we tend to believe it is true. Additionally, it has been confirmed by Ukrainians in Ukraine over the last several months. A significant fraction of the men 16-40 have vacated the country just to escape conscription- and I don't blame them.
"We had conscription in World War II, and hundreds of thousands of men were investigated for draft-dodging. Ergo, fighting Hitler was immoral? Something wrong with your logic there."
Conscripting men to go fight a war is immoral, Dr. Weevil- full fucking stop.
By all means- defend the practice. Let's see what you got.
"Just wondering. Are you including the United States and WW2 in that?"
Yes, I am. Could the US have successfully fought WWII without conscription- if yes, then the war might have been a moral and just one to fight since the men were voluntarily willing to go fight it. If not, then, no the war would have been moral to fight.
Conscripting young men to go fight a war they would not have otherwise volunteered to fight in is just slavery by another name- do you not get this?
“ Maybe the NYT gave up on the Ukrainian Nazi angle when they realized that Ukrainian Nazis are all low-ranking losers with no friends in high places,”
Except that the Nazi battalions seemed to get the best equipment.
It was also Nazi snipers who massacred dozens of demonstrators and policemen in Maidan. “Without us,” said one Nazi “Maidan would have been a gay parade.” The Nazis turned peaceful protests into a coup.
Rocco said...
"Instead of saying they were Shanghaied should we say they were Kieved?"
Narayanan responded...
"Were they chicken for refusing to join up?"
You're right. No matter how you try to slice or coat it, that implication is baked in.
"We had conscription in World War II, and hundreds of thousands of men were investigated for draft-dodging."
Eh. Anyone who claimed a deferment had their claims investigated. Only about 5,000 men received legal sanction for truly draft dodging.
One of those deferments was for college. As a side note, due to the anticipated need for doctors, the requirement that one had to have completed an undergraduate degree before entering medical school was relaxed. One of my uncles only went for 2.5 - 3 years before he was accepted into med school. He graduated too late to serve in WWII, but did serve in Korea in both a MASH unit and evac hospital.
If you want to find a lot of young Ukrainian men, just go to Ireland. The country is awash with them.
A 2020, the fighting age male population (18-40yrs) was, approximately, Russia 23mm vs Ukraine 5mm.
Re: Dr. Weevil:
How exactly are we supposed to tell the difference between press gangs dragging away unwilling recruits and (e.g.) undercover policemen arresting drug dealers, or military police arresting traitors who've been transmitting troop locations to the Russians? When this all came up on Twitter months ago, a lot of Ukrainians said that films of the latter two were being falsely labeled as the first one.
Sure, that's why I caveated that the Ukrainian and Russian sources for this stuff are all deeply untrustworthy -- they could have been Russian press gangs after all, and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at the time. And I see Ukrainian spin, like what you're regurgitating, either trying to minimise the Ukrainians' problems or tu quoque everything away. But the Ukrainians certainly aren't above lying about what's going on either. And now, months later, it's being reported without caveats, along with other details on how people are desperately seeking to avoid the press gangs.
Balfegor (9:40am)
I'm "regurgitating"? Fuck you, asshole.
If the West wanted Ukraine to win this war, it would have already been won. Just by providing a few updated weapons systems it made a huge difference.
HIMARS was a game changer.
Storm shadow missiles gave Ukraine the control of the Black Sea.
ATACMS in their first strike incapacitated 20 attack helicopters.
F16 have not even entered the battle.
So imagine for a second that the West put all of their might into this war, to teach Russia a lesson and make the East of Europe secure for more than a decade.
Imagine that instead of half-hearted support, the only limit was that no troops will participate, but instead of helping with an average of 0.4% of GDP in defense spending, European countries gave Ukraine 1% of GDP in aid. And the US instead of a 4% of its defense budget an 8%.
Imagine that more advance fighter jets than F16 are provided, imagine that black hawk helicopters are provided, imagine that ammunition for long-range missiles is tripled and Ukraine is allowed to strike military targets within Russia.
This war could be won in a year if the West was resolved to win this war.
The only problem has been, and continues to be, that the West is afraid of a striking victory where Putin is cornered, because they may fear he starts threatening with tactical nuclear wars or similar. It has been proven again and again that it is a bluff, but this indecision has been enough to allow Russia to continue with this conflict.
By providing quite a half-hearted support, the West almost wins this war. Russia was pushed back from Kyiv, from Kharkiv, and from Kherson. It also lost control of the Black Sea. And controls only 20% of Ukraine, much of which already controlled before the war through separatists and other proxies.
So the only question is, how much does the West wish to win this war.
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