From "Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships/A church official said the blessings amounted to 'a real development' that nevertheless did not amend 'the traditional doctrine of the Church about marriage'" (NYT).
१८ डिसेंबर, २०२३
"The Vatican had long said it could not bless same-sex couples because it would undermine church doctrine that marriage is only between a man and a woman."
"The new rule was issued in a declaration by the church’s office on doctrine and introduced by its prefect, Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández, who said that the declaration did not amend 'the traditional doctrine of the church about marriage,' because it allowed no liturgical rite that could be confused with the sacrament of marriage."
From "Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships/A church official said the blessings amounted to 'a real development' that nevertheless did not amend 'the traditional doctrine of the Church about marriage'" (NYT).
MEANWHILE: "With a Deadline Looming, the United Methodist Church Breaks Up/A quarter of the denomination’s churches have left, as the faith divides over L.G.B.T.Q. policies" (NYT)("America’s second-largest Protestant denomination is in the final stages of a slow-motion rupture that has so far seen the departure of a quarter of the nation’s roughly 30,000 United Methodist churches...").
From "Pope Francis Allows Priests to Bless Same-Sex Relationships/A church official said the blessings amounted to 'a real development' that nevertheless did not amend 'the traditional doctrine of the Church about marriage'" (NYT).
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This pope is a menace.
I know many Catholic priests personally, and while they are all very nice people, they are all 100% open borders, DEI, ultra-liberal democrats.
There is no testosterone in the Roman Catholic Church.
As usual, there's a Jesuit to blame...
Sure, it ain't a real Catholic marriage, but the wedding receptions afterwards will be FAB.
Bless their heart.
It's not a development. It's consistent with what came before. You have always been able to ask a priest to bless you.
Political congruence ("=") and couplets in marriage with rent-a-wombs and sperm donors in a modern family. That said, civil unions for all consenting adults. #NoJudgment #NoLabels
Others with social progress?
Groups are free to make the rules they want.
But churches obliterate their authority, if they refuse to follow the Bible as their rule book.
Marriage is a religious invention, Hi Jacked by Government.
It is hard to preach about the negative results of sin, and make exceptions for some sin.
Again, Not my fight.
But is should be the Churches fight.
Other than wanting to be liked by the mean girls, I fail to see the purpose of the Church recognizing SSM
Well done Althousians...this:
It's not a development. It's consistent with what came before. You have always been able to ask a priest to bless you.
...plus this Sure, it ain't a real Catholic marriage, but the wedding receptions afterwards will be FAB.
...means not only the reception will be fab but we get to rent The Vatican for the 'ceremony.' THAT'S fab!
My wife and I attended a Methodist church for 10 years. They lost a lot of members when they hired a gay choir director. Folks feared he would change the church. We stayed. He did change the church.
Ideology began to seep into liturgy. Lots of calls to "justice." Crude allusions to Trump. No more timeless messages covering universal topics. It was a joyless affair. We're now looking for a traditional alternative.
He's a real Chatty Cathy these days - “It is Terrorism”: Pope Francis Denounces Killing of Two Christian Women in Gaza
In other news the Vatican has jailed a Cardinal for stealing millions.
What a pathetic and corrupt organization.
i used to be a UMC member (baptized and confirmed).. No Longer. You see, i believe in the Bible
Pope blesses same sex marriages, latent homosexuals hardest hit.
Baby steps.
Trouble is the SIN that makes people feel guilty, ashamed and depressed. The Catholic Church has claimed a monopoly on selling the cure, and that has worked well for them until the printing press spread translated scriptures that the cure was a free gift faster than the Papacy could have the translators, printers and those pesky new literate readers burned at the stake. So many of them fought for their new faith that the were called Protestants because they protested about their being tortured to death and their wealth stolen.
Today’s Methodists made the same mistake of building up such a massive Real Estate ownership that Denomination Busting was too tempting. Gay sex blessing forced by their own Denomination rulers is only the smoke screen being used to force the closing and sale of that hoard of prime real estate.
"It's consistent with what came before. You have always been able to ask a priest to bless you."
But have you been able to have a ceremony in the church sanctuary, with the priest not performing the ceremony but offering a blessing?
I'm not sure you can do that with this new development either. Just trying to figure out the levels of formality to the priest's participation.
The Vatican is notoriously gay.
The Catholic Church has doomed itself with the world's worst HR policies. Its claim to exclusive doctrinal authority over the spiritual legacy of Jesus is becoming ever more preposterous to the folks sitting in the pews.
So, Catholic priests have papal permission to bless same sex relationships, as long as no one confuses it as marriage? Why aren't heterosexual extramarital relationships so privileged?
Another turn taken in civilizational Jenga.
The churches are correct to split over issues like this one. It keeps the arguments where they belong, on the organizational plane - like 'what happened to our budget and underwriters?' and other shocking developments.
Shrug, why not?...Nowadays sex is more about recreation than procreation. It's only a matter of time before gestation takes place in some kind of machine where prenatal infants aren't subjected to hormonal flushes and variations of the human womb. I'm surprised that we still produce babies in this antiquated way. You'd think feminists would be more militant in demanding research in this area....Belief in God is somewhat contingent upon the available science. Until recently nearly everybody believed in God. There were some who doubted the extent of Divine Providence, but everybody believed that there was a Prime Mover and that He had caused and shaped the existence of man. Not so much anymore. As with God, so with sex.....What with the available standards of hygiene and the dire effects of venereal diseases, it made more sense to be prudish, hetero, and monogamous for much of humanity's existence. Take oral sex. I don't think there was a lot of it going on back when people bathed infrequently. Apparently there was homosexuality back in Shakespeare's time, but, if you were gay and lived in a small village, who did you get to be gay with?.....Marriage is still the best way to raise children, and children will have a better chance in life if their parents are traditional, God-fearing people, but, as a delivery system for sex, it's not the only or best game in town.
The Vatican speaks for Francis. God is on his own.
"But have you been able to have a ceremony in the church sanctuary, with the priest not performing the ceremony but offering a blessing?"
You still can't do that. The text of the teaching forbids that explicitly.
CNN, "He is now facing five and a half years in prison, after being convicted of several counts of embezzlement. Becciu is the first cardinal to be convicted and sentenced by a Vatican court."
"38. For this reason, one should neither provide for nor promote a ritual for the blessings of couples in an irregular situation. At the same time, one should not prevent or prohibit the Church's closeness to people in every situation in which they might seek God's help through a simple blessing. In a brief prayer preceding this spontaneous blessing, the ordained mini
"39. In any case, precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding. The same applies when the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple."
The answer to my question is no:
“In any case, precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding. The same applies when the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple.”
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/12/18/0901/01963.html#en
The Vatican is notoriously gay.
Full of pride and prejudice, elevated with pomp and ceremony in parade, but never, as I recall, on the Isle of Lesbos.
As I recall church doctrine, sex is only within marriage and for procreative purposes (this rule gets a little sketchy after menopause, but it is possible for God to bless any heterosexual union with pregnancy--Sarah, Abraham's wife, became pregnant with her first child at 90).
Anyway, while it is not a sin to be gay, it is a sin to have gay sex, just as it is a sin to have any sex outside of marriage. The church cannot bless a gay union without a pledge of celibacy. And I highly doubt it's getting any of those.
Slippery, meet slope.
The Church holds that sexual union outside of the sacrament of marriage is a sin.
This declaration allows the blessing of a sinful situation.
Is it now permissible for a priest to bless an unmarried heterosexual couple that lives together.
Jesuits are reputed to be smart. How does one look at what has happened to the mainline Protestant churches that have embraced modernism and think this is a good idea.
How does this promote the glory of God?
One further thought - the Pope has been discouraging the promotion of the Latin Rite and other traditional practices. This is where young people who embrace the Faith are leaning. The attendees of Latin Masses are not aging Baby Boomers and people from the greatest generation. It is the people of Gen X who reject the DEI religion and are looking for something more substantial.
Christianity does not normalize dysfunction in relationships of sexual, cissexual, "benefits", pedosexual, etc conception and progression.
The United Methodist Church is not breaking up over LGBTQ concerns. It is breaking up over the ruling progressive bloc's rejection of scriptural authority, of which rejection the LGBTQ issue is but a symptom.
There is madness to their Methodism.
Here is a good analysis of the whole thing:
https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/fiducia-supplicans-what-does-it-say
Pass the popcorn — this is going to cause a whole lot of rightwing heads to explode.
Pope Francis is doing what he can to reform the Church along the simple and clear lines of Jesus’ teachings. He’s up against millennia of dogma and encrusted tradition, with furious opposition by people still miffed over Vatican II.
I've heard from people who know*, that I live in the "pinkest" diocese in this part of the country. Ho Hum.
What else is new?
Maybe next they'll wear mini skirts instead of cassocks.
You can't bless same sex marriage because it's not marriage. Marriage presumes the domestication of very specific disharmonies
"We are men and women. It almost always matters which we are. Men and women are aggressive. Their regard for each other is clouded by grudges, suspicions, fears, needs, desires, and nacrissistic postures. There's no scrubbing them out. The best you can hope for is domestication, as in football, rock, humor, happy marriage, and a good prose style." - Wm. Kerrigan
From The Pillar post I linked above:
“The third section, Blessings of Couples in Irregular Situations and of Couples of the Same Sex, says that the preceding considerations show there is a “possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex.” But it insists that their form “should not be fixed ritually by ecclesial authorities to avoid producing confusion with the blessing proper to the Sacrament of Marriage.”
“In such cases,” it says, “a blessing may be imparted that not only has an ascending value but also involves the invocation of a blessing that descends from God upon those who — recognizing themselves to be destitute and in need of his help — do not claim a legitimation of their own status, but who beg that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of the Holy Spirit.”
A blessing, then, is asking for God’s help to live in His truth, not your truth.
The Times story on the Methodists was paywalled for me. I don't know if the Times mentioned it, but the reason that it is called "The United Methodist Church" is interesting in this context.
It goes back to slavery days. In the mid-nineteenth century, the American cultural debate over slavery was at least as bitter and divisive in churches as it was in Congress and the new states in the west. The Protestant churches of the northeast and midwest were the heart and soul of the abolitionist movement. The churches of the south sought to endow slavery with moral rightreousness. The denominations, north and south, actually split long before secession became a thing. The Methodists split, and split hard.
The northern and southern churches reamined split, through the Civil War, and reconstruction, and into the 20th century. It wasn't until 1968 that they created the United Methodist Church (although there had been a reparative rejoining in 1939).
So the United Methodists have split before, on principle, and then reunited. I think the same will happen again with the passage of time.
I am a United Methodist and I like to remind everyone that among my fellow Methodists are Hillary Clinton and Barbara Bush; Elizabeth Warren and Tom Cotton; Bennie Thompson and Thomas Massie; Dan Crenshaw and Colin Allred. Dick Cheney is a Methodist. Rush Limbaugh was a Methodist.
So can a husband and his mistress receive the same blessing?
The old joke "Is the Pope Catholic" comes to mind.
You can all have an opinion, but if you're not a practicing Roman Catholic, then it's just talk...
While Chuck's story about the "United" Methodist name sounds reasonable, it is mistaken. The northern Methodist Protestant church reunited with the breakaway southern Methodist Episcopal Church in 1939, being then called simply The Methodist Church. The 1968 event he mentions actually merged the The Methodist Church with the much-smaller Evangelical Brethren Church, with United Methodist Church the name from thence forward.
The Vault Dweller asked, “ So can a husband and his mistress receive the same blessing?”
To my mind it appears so.
You’re also only allowed one marriage but Ted and a few others so there you go…
"That's not Ranch, Amy."
The Vatican, according to the NYT:
"...also stressed that it was not blessing the relationship..."
Then what are we talking about? Blessing what?
"Marriage is still the best way to raise children, and children will have a better chance in life if their parents are traditional, God-fearing people, but, as a delivery system for sex, it's not the only or best game in town."
Actually, it's a pretty good game, as long as you don't harbor the "grass is greener" fantasy. Or if you do harbor it but respond by improving your own lawn.
You can all have an opinion, but if you're not a practicing Roman Catholic, then it's just talk...
I can beat you at dominoes.
No you can't beat us at dominoes.
I can beat you at dominoes.
No you can't beat us at dominoes.
The Catholic church has been hyper political, sexually adventurous, and full of division since the fall of Rome. Over time the traditional wing dominated its public face, as being straight and avoiding birth control results in much larger future generations than enjoying the company of your own sex and/or avoiding children.
There have been plenty of splits within and away from the Catholic church...see the Spanish Inquisition and Protestant movement... I suspect that the Pope Francis wing will fade away for apathy about "ideological obsolescence" and a lack of new members within 20-40 years, or the traditionalists will stomp the leftists into the ground as threatened traditionalists tend to do. See what happened to global fundamentalist Islam after the fall of the Shah of Iran in 1979.
What is Francis trying to do? Literally speed the end the church? Weekly church attendance in Europe is in the single digits, as they are often Christian in name only. Many US Catholics pick-and-choose which teachings to follow (e.g., Joe Biden and abortion). In contrast, the entire country of South Korea is being replaced by devout Christians who produce a lot more babies than the non-Christian Koreans. Also see the Mormon reproductive rate.
Chuck said...
The Times story on the Methodists was paywalled for me. I don't know if the Times mentioned it, but the reason that it is called "The United Methodist Church" is interesting in this context.
...
The northern and southern churches remained split, through the Civil War, and reconstruction, and into the 20th century. It wasn't until 1968 that they created the United Methodist Church (although there had been a reparative rejoining in 1939).
This is mostly bafflegab, to put it mildly, and on par with your other offerings.
Methodist conferences in the U.S. have split several times since the Colonial Period and some such as the A.M.E. remain separate entities. The General Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church did split in 1844 over slavery and other issues but it was far from the first such division.
It is not accurate to say that the 1939 reconciliation was not a reunification. The two conferences of the Methodist Episcopal Church that split in 1844 merged with a third from an earlier split, the Methodist Protestant Church, to form The Methodist Church.
In 1968 the Evangelical United Brethren Church was added to the organization formed from the 1939 merger, resulting in the United Methodist Church. The "United" in the name of the current organization has nothing to do with 1844 split.
Individuals seeking God's grace to live according to Gospel truth have always been able to ask for a blessing.
That's NOT what this document involves.
This document expressly involves the blessing of couples as couples, and not as two individuals. And to bless couples is to recognize them precisely as a couple, as a two-person unit comprising one entity. Which is to say, by such recognition that such a same-sex unity is possible is to give the error of that idea legitimacy.
Moving on...the document allows for blessings of same-sex couples seeking God's grace "so that human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love."
The problem with that, of course, is that same-sex relationships by their very nature are NOT in fidelity to the Gospel or the truth of the human person as revealed in the body, made male and female for each other. The only way for same-sex couples to grow in the Gospel and be freed of their imperfections is to end the relationship. In short, such a blessing would be for those same-sex couples who seek God's grace of strength to break up.
Huh? What kind of illogic is that? Who is going to do that? Of course, all this leaves aside this odd distinction that same-sex couples can be given a blessing, just not a blessing that is in the Book of Blessings, because apparently a formal standardized prayer would cause some kind of confusion while an extemporaneous one would not. Huh??
Like most things put out by Fernandez, who before he became head of the doctrinal office was actually kept by that doctrinal office from holding certain Church positions because of Gospel infidelity, and who also was the author of steamy romance books, the holes in his reasoning are rampant.
But this isn't meant to be convincing. It is admitted to be an innovation and is simply meant to give authority. Nor is it meant to be an application of Catholic teaching, which Fernandez explicitly contrasts with "the pastoral vision of Pope Francis," which he sees as his job to promote as a "real development," rather than defending revealed Catholic teaching handed down over the millennia.
Ronald Reagan declared that he had not left the Democratic party; instead the party had left him.
It is the same in the Methodist church. The larger part has departed from the authority of scripture in its practice. The smaller part has chosen to continue under the authority of scripture.
"There is no testosterone in the Roman Catholic Church."
The Testosterone Junkies shall inherit the Earth.🤣😂🤣
Shut the fuck up.
They're allowing informal blessings, not establishing a liturgical rite, let alone changing a sacrament. Sounds like a good step. The articles don't highlight it, but resistance is from Africa and the global South, which constitute a majority of the world's Christians now, and which are traditional on matters of marriage and sexuality.
iowan2:
Marriage is a religious invention, Hi Jacked by Government.
Tribal societies have marriage with ceremonial overtones but no real religious rites involved.
Marriage is way older than either organized religion or government.
Not to say that marriage in current societies has been or not, but my first marriage was signing a piece of paper and both families having a party over it.
Well, they've lost the big thing Hitler admired about the Catholic church. Not its teachings, but its methods
Faith, he explains in Mein Kampf. must be “unconditional.” It cannot in any essential way be made dependent on arguments, proofs, reasons. Its content must be offered to the masses in the form of rigid dogmas, “dogmas as such.” Once a doctrine has been announced publicly, therefore, there can be no changes in it, no debates, no discussion. “For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure?”
Peikoff, Leonard. Ominous Parallels (p. 54). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
For some reason, I'm reminded of the scene in Fiddler where the wise-acre student asks the rabbi, is there a blessing for the Tsar?
'Shut the fuck up.'
That's all you've got?
Now gay priests can marry gay couples. Seems a natural trajectory.
Luckily, altar boys are not a thing of the past.
Methodists follow the Wesleyan Quadrilateral of Scripture, Tradition, Experience, and Reason. Progressives generally favor experience and reason a bit more than conservatives do, but it is a matter of degree.
The church is not blessing same sex marriages. A priest may offer a non-liturgical blessing to an individual in a same sex relationship.
Tribal societies have marriage with ceremonial overtones but no real religious rites involved.
We are talking past each other
The big picture. For Christians, the Bible is truth. The church is doing the leftist double speak of "context matters" . No, there is no context. Just the Bible.
Without the Bible, Christianity is nothing but paganism, where their Sunday best
Same Sex is one thing, but then this cute little term: "Irregular Situations". I'm assuming that's a catch-all for heterosexual couples shacking up, Men with Mistresses, S&M Enthusiasts and Threesomes.
I keep remembering Camille Paglia's warnings about the evils of Post-Structuralism, and how the biggest degenerates were the progressives in the Catholic Church.
this is popular in Europe, where few attend church, but will not be accepted in the third world, where the majority of Catholics now live.
Indeed, if left to stand, more Catholics in South America where I have family and the Philippines where I live will convert to Protestantism.
As for Africa: Their bishops will probably protest more vigorously, as one can see they are doing in the Anglican church.
The Church is not blessing any gay marriage. It's simply blessing individuals who may happen to be in a gay relationship or a marriage. Just like Catholic priests bless candles, hosts, water, houses, statues or a new playground. It's a big whoop minus the Big and the Whoop.
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