Writes Adam Gopnik, in "What Do We Want from Comedy?/We insist that comedians respect our sacrosanct ideals—and pray that they skewer our sanctimony. It’s a dirty job, but someone’s got to do it" (The New Yorker).
Do you know what "liminal space" that sentence about liminal space is in? "What separates Chris Rock from Donald Trump" — I'd say — is that we are all equally "clued in" to what Chris Rock is doing — because he's plainly and clearly a comedian — and we are differently clued in about Donald Trump. Some of us feel that we get him, and we can deal with the mix of humor and seriousness. It's even quite brilliant. Others hear the odd things as crazy and threatening, and they can't relax and enjoy it. And taking Trump's words seriously makes them useful to his antagonists. He said he'd be a dictator on Day 1!
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46 comments:
The left are still stuck on this?
I think it was a stupid thing to say. why? - the basic rule of = don't give leftists, gifts.
We never hear the end of it.
i was more upset with McCain being responsible for a bomb strike on his own aircraft carrier
John McCain, Wet-Starts and the USS Forrestal
To Be "fair" the board of inquiry COMPLETELY absolved McCain of ANY wrong doing..
It's GOOD to be the Commanding Admiral's son
Trump is the landlord of NYT minds… such as they are…
I didn't realize that Chris Rock had originated the "captured/hero" line. I thought that it was Bill Maher. I still sort of think it was Maher, but either way the point remains that, as Althouse notes, they are professional comedians and there is a context to what they were saying and doing.
With Trump, it's not comedy. It's personal viciousness. But even before we get there, let's all at least acknowledge that Trump was essentially stealing the comedy line. It is not, was not, never will be, a case of Trump coming up with a clever line of his own. He stole it.
And then, when Trum deployed it, he did it without any nuance; no understanding, no introspection. Chris Rock and Bill Maher are both too young to have been of Vietnam draft age. Neither one ever had to deal with a head-on confrontation with military service. (Born in 1956, Bill Maher would have turned 18 the year that the draft ended.) Donald Trump was a shameless, lying, draft dodger. Addressing McCain, Trump wasn't really trying to create humor; he was trying to attack McCain on a personal level.
Not only do I think that comedy creation is beyond Trump's ability; I don't think Trump has a genuine sense of humor at all. He can make use of comedy at times, but it is only in the service of his own pathological need to demean and hurt others. Trump has some understanding of sarcasm, but has anyone ever even seen him laugh in a real (not sracastic) way? He can't do it. He's a pure sociopath.
Chris Rock not running for president
McCain has never done anything that didn't benefit McCain. Starting with playing the rogue when he couldn't live up to his father's heritage.
Gopnik was well labeled by Cheney. His opinion is whatever the DNC says it is.
Of course chris rock meant it, silly mccain he thought the dems respected vets they only cared when he pushed their agenda like springing gitmo prisoners or silencing speech
Of course, Trump already had his day 1 and he wasn't a dictator. So what he's really doing is inviting a certain kind of person to reveal themselves.
The media has its work cut out for it this time around as, since he's already been president, they have to explain (or hope we don't notice--which we have) that Trump didn't do any of these terrible things they're sure he's going to do the last time he was in a position to do them.
John McCain was an asshole. Pushing the color revolution in Ukraine. Then during Trump's Presidency voting to keep Obamacare after campaigning against it, and floating the bullshit Steele Dossier. In the end, he was a little man. Luckily the "McCain Republicans" in Arizona are aging and shrinking.
Just because he was a famed Viet Nam war prisoner doesn't give him a free pass. His widow even admitted THEY ALL KNEW what was going on with Jeffry Epstein. Did NOTHING about it.
I like war heroes who protect children.
Same with John Kerry. Just because he went to Viet Nam, doesn't give him a free pass on pushing Climate bullshit while traveling on private jets. Kerry and VP Harris took separate planes to the latest middle east "climate summit". Total bullshit.
Democrats' whole 2024 strategy could be summed up as yelling "fire!" in a liminal space. Trouble is, they've done it to death in 2016-19 (Russia! Russia! Russia!) and 2020-23 (Insurrection!). If nothing else, boredom demands a new shtick.
Odd that McCains War hero status is STILL thought of as sacred. Mostly by liberal/leftists who would never vote for him if he had run in their blue states.
Comedians, aka "the Humor Industry" are almost all liberal/leftists and only a small percent ever attack any sacred liberal/left cows. Whats happened is the "Party line" has gotten more and more all encompassing and the penalties for violating it more and moare draconian.
There's never been a bigger and easier target for satire than Senile Ol'Biden and his adminsitration, and on so many levels. Yet, all we get from the "Entertainment Industry" is litte powder puff jokes, and a constant desire to mock Trump. Over and over again.
Humor used to be comedians taking shots at the rich and powerful. Knocking the top hat off the stuffy ol' Millionaire was a staple of comedy. That rarely happens now, probably because "The rich guys" are often Leftwing, or Jewish, or have friends in the "Industry".
I was hoping someone would satirize the absurdity of rich, wealthy Jews at Harvard being "Threatened" and "Scared" by some brown people protesting Isreael and needing protection from the FBI, but no luck. Or the ADL constantly exclaiming - every fucking year - that "Antisemitism is at an all time high" But nope, too much of a sacred cow.
I think the main difference is Chris Rock doesn't have debilitating bone spurs. It's much more funny when a draft dodging coward whose daddy paid for a fake doctor's report to get him out of military service then goes on to criticize someone with the balls to fly into the most highly concentrated anti-aircraft fire the world had ever known.
Some people engaged in war are captured because they were engaged in heroic actions against the enemy. Others are unlucky; in the wrong place at the wrong time. And still others are captured because they blundered. McCain is in this last group. He claims he was shot down by a SAM, but according to the official Navy report at the time claimed he was shot down by ground fire because he was flying lower than he was supposed to be. And the two broken arms and broken leg he suffered when he ejected from his A-4 Skyhawk meant he did not follow proper ejection procedures.
McCain’s fortitude and refusal to submit during his period of captivity in the Hanoi Hilton is thoroughly admirable. Not very many men would have done as well. But he shouldn’t have been there.
I decided to look up Adam Gopnik, so that I can understand the value he brings. According to wikipedia, he graduated from the same university where his parents taught with a BA in Art History.
Others hear the odd things as crazy and threatening, and they can't relax and enjoy it.
Yes I feel exactly like this when Brandon attempts "comedy" exacerbated by the fact Biden's quips tend to be poorly disguised anger or partisanship, where Trump's comedic stylings have an everyman quality. Nevertrumpers act like NO president has ever said absurd things for laughs before. Rule breaker!
Hey chuck - wonder if Trump can be indicted for his inauthentic comedy?
Jack Smith.. calling Jack smith.
@Althouse -- "liminal space" in contemporary use seems to be an academic backformation from the mainstream notions of "subliminal" or "unconscious." This follows early psychology research (19th century) and then manipulative advertising with rapid content switches and hidden messages.
Liminal = conscious = awake = woke?
https://www.etymonline.com/word/subliminal
A hypothetical Donald Trump who didn't issue these sorts of insults never gets the nomination in 2016 and, thus, never becomes president; and we would be looking at the last year of the Hillary Clinton Administration coming up with Tim Kaine the odds-on favorite to make it a 24 year run minimum with the Democrats in charge- SCOTUS would be 9-0 by 2032.
Do people really not understand how it was Trump defeated Rubio, Bush etc.?
that was Clymr not Gopnik, I think Mccain's behavior was illustrated by the way he abandoned his first wife who stood by him in his captivity, to marry the daughter of Kemper Marley associate Henley's (Marley was the gangster who had Don Bolles blown up
about a generation later, he did a similar thing to the Huntress, Chris Rock is a silly little jester, who pipes up about relative trivialities, while ignoring the plight of his community.
I'm just here to mock "liminal space".
Can we trade the blacks we have now for ones still in Africa?
The ancestors of the ones in Africa were smart enough to evade capture by other blacks, so they weren't brought over in ships and sold to Democrats...
Comedian or not, the message was the same despite another self-important journolista telling us otherwise.
The difference was in the delivery.
Comedy is what makes you laugh. Saying you're not going to vote for some guy who got himself captured mightbe funny in the right context but a guy in Maryland, the police and fire department arrayed around his house because he's playing with a flare gun and then the house blowing up is hilarious.
It's a lot like what Biden voters think they voted for and what they got. Comedy gold.
I think that McCain’s captivity embittered him to the point that his desire for revenge has damaged the interests of the United States,
YouTube: Alan Watts talking about Jung's idea of an integrated person as it relates to humor)
"In humor there's always an element of malice."
“It is... easy to forget that Chris Rock preceded Donald Trump in deriding John McCain for having been captured..."
So…. Cultural Appropriation? Just another Black man’s contributions being erased from history.
If the roles were reversed, let’s say Trump was the comic and Obama the president joking president, the incident would have been explained in Obama’s favor. Of course.
I don't understand why so many people seem to miss the point of the criticism of McCain.
What the joke by Rock or the comment by Trump are getting at in an oblique way is that there were legitimate heroes in the Vietnam war, people who performed seemingly superhuman feats of bravery or self-sacrifice, yet the ONLY two Vietnam veterans you EVER heard about in the media were John Kerry and John McCain, both of whom were CONSTANTLY bragging about their service, and both of whom were not precisely heroes.
That they served is admirable. We owe a debt of gratitude to EVERYONE who served honorably. But we don't owe any MORE gratitude to McCain and Kerry than we do to all other veterans (whereas we might owe more gratitude to someone who saved many lives or did particularly valorous things, not to mention what we owe to the 55,000 who made the ultimate sacrifice), and yet Kerry and McCain were trading on their service purely for their own self-advancement. I don't recall either of them spending a lot of time celebrating others who also served, although that wouldn't have been hard to do: for God's sake, my Scoutmaster had story after story of the men he served with. It was only after he passed away that we found out about the medals he had earned.
The hero vs. captured opposition--in the rude way of effective comedy--cuts to the heart of the issue: instead of talking about yourself all the time, shouldn't you be talking about one of those many people who accomplished more, immensely much more, than you did?
And truly, anything that helped puncture the bloated self-righteousness of John McCain was a good thing.
Steven Crowder did a podcast this week while sitting in a black barbershop chatting with the barbers and customers. One of their topics was comedy and how offending the wrong person or a protected member of society can destroy a young comedian's career before it even gets off the ground. The stated purpose of his on-site podcast was to show that most black and white people are not so far apart in their opinions on issues as the media would have you think. I enjoyed watching the video and listening to the views of those taking part in the conversations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdqbGbWM7Yo&ab_channel=StevenCrowder
What separates diversity blocs? Can they cancel black Rock?
"gilbar said...
i was more upset with McCain being responsible for a bomb strike on his own aircraft carrier
John McCain, Wet-Starts and the USS Forrestal
To Be "fair" the board of inquiry COMPLETELY absolved McCain of ANY wrong doing..
It's GOOD to be the Commanding Admiral's son"
Using Dailykos from 2008?
And no, McCain didn't have anything to do with the Forrestal fire except he was sitting in the A-4 that got hit by the missile.
1. His jet exhaust wasn't pointed in the direction of the F-4. It was pointed out to sea.
2. He couldn't have done a 'wet start' in the first place because the A-4 didn't have an afterburner.
3. The USN did a very detailed investigation that showed it was a short circuit on the F-4 that fired the rocket. That USN personal failed to exercised some safety features because of the need to get the planes airborne.
4. The bombs they were using were likely WW2 or Korean war era and stored in the jungle. They were rusting, there was explosive leaking from some, and they didn't have a fire retardant coating that would give time for fire crews to knock back any fires. Why did they use them? Because Bob McNamara, may he rest in hell, was cheap. He wanted to use up old stockpiles before using the modern stuff. The moment they heard about the Forrestal, the carrier crews dumped those bombs overboard without even waiting for orders.
McVain was many things but this he did NOT do.
"What do we want from Comedy?"
To laugh. That's the job. Full stop. Do that and you're good. Anything more is gravy, but - fact - not everyone makes good gravy.
Prof. M. Drout said...
...
Don't be ridiculous. Trump wasn't comparing McCain to any of the "real" war heroes you're talking about. Trump -- we know from decorated combat veteran and gold-star dad Gen. John Kelly's own account -- thought that American war dead were "losers and suckers."
I know basically nothing about how comedians like Chris Rock view the U.S. military. I know a fair bit about Trump's views from what he has said and done.
Joe Smith said...
"Can we trade the blacks we have now for ones still in Africa?
The ancestors of the ones in Africa were smart enough to evade capture by other blacks, so they weren't brought over in ships and sold to Democrats..."
That's funny: Bill Burr says American blacks - not Africans - are the "Supermen" the Nazis were shooting for. Unless you think Hitler, Goerring, Goebbels, Hess, and Himmler are all fine male specimens.
Michael K is known for engaging in this sort of colonial mind state. White men, still comparing flesh, just not at a slave auction. [shaking my head, involuntarily] And really, if put to a vote, do you think minorities would hesitate to ship whites back where they came from? I don't find it a pleasant thing to think about.
YMMV.
Awww... He's just kidding. He kids. He's a big kidder.
Yeah right.
If McCain was a war hero, then so were 120,000 Americans taken POW during WW II. As stated above, McCain did nothing heroic, he was just shot down flying a combat mission. He joined the family business (Grandfather and father were Admirals) and decided to become a Naval Aviator.
But nothing can stop the ol' boomers for turning any mention of McCain into: "Well yes, but he was a war Hero". I've been hearing about his war heroism for 40 years. No public figure EVER mention his "war Hero" status more often. Even Bush, Goldwater, Wallace, Dole, Ike, Truman, and JFK did it less.
No Republican warmonger has been so beloved by Leftwing Democrats. You wonder what Leftists really believe.
LLR-democratical and Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck: "I know basically nothing about how comedians like Chris Rock view the U.S. military. I know a fair bit about Trump's views from what he has said and done."
Long time readers of Althouse blog will recall LLR-democratical Chuck passionately defending Joe Biden's service avoidance via multiple "asthma" deferments as well as Chuck's strong endorsement of Dick Durbin after Durbin accused US troops of being "gestapo". Chuckles was all in on Durbin with that one.
But nothing exposed LLR-democratical and Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck's hypocrisy more than Chuck's years long defense of Sen Dick "Da Nang" Blumenthals long running Stolen Valor lies about serving in Vietnam when he never did.
Readers might be surprised that LLR-democratical Chuck would so passionately defend something like that which was so easily exposed.
You simply need to understand that there is no lie or smear against a republican/conservative Chuck wont advance nor any democrat he wont defend regardless of how egregious the action.
In fact, that is one of two reasons Chuckles explicitly offered up as to why he posts at Althouse blog.
The second explicit reason Chuck posts here, in his very own words, is to "drive a wedge between Althouse and her readers".
So yes, Chuck is simply another democratical troll like Rich or lonejustice, by his own admission.
An admission he has since tried very to walk back!
LOL
It is WRONG to claim that McCain's POLITICAL actions can be excused/defended because he served in Viet Nam, was shot down, and captured..
A friend of mine was a friend of one of one of McCain's fellow former POWs, and he admired McCain for his behavior as a POW. I think McCain's conduct there was admirable. But when he became a Senator he sponsored the McCain-Feingold anti-free-speech statute. He also pushed other legislation that I thought was wrong, poorly reasoned, etc. I didn't think he was a good candidate for President.
In the forthcoming election I would prefer someone other than Trump, someone who DIDN'T dodge the draft, such as DeSantis or Haley. (But I grant that they are too young to have faced the issue.)
Biden, I assume, dodged the draft for the Spanish-American War.
Prof M. Drout: "What the joke by Rock or the comment by Trump are getting at in an oblique way is that there were legitimate heroes in the Vietnam war, people who performed seemingly superhuman feats of bravery or self-sacrifice, yet the ONLY two Vietnam veterans you EVER heard about in the media were John Kerry and John McCain, both of whom were CONSTANTLY bragging about their service, and both of whom were not precisely heroes."
Quite right.
I cant tell you how many Naval Aviation vets applauded and laughed their arses off after hearing Trump's joke/criticism of McCain. McCain's self-importance and his stab-the-base-in-the-back fatigue had settled in decades ago.
And of course, later we found out McCain was central to corruptly pushing the hoax dossier and hoax russian collusion with his democratical allies.
Naturally.
Terrifying invocation of cruelty?
'Michael K is known for engaging in this sort of colonial mind state. White men, still comparing flesh, just not at a slave auction.'
I was talking about intellect.
Many blacks in this country have fantastic physical traits...
Has Rolling Stone ever apologized for saying McCain was not a hero and worse in that article by Tim Dickinson in 2008?
Why should comedians respect our sacrosanct ideals? Some of our sacrosanct ideals may not be so great...or true. Even if they are as great (and true) as we believe--especially if they are--we should be able to tolerate someone ridiculing them without being outraged or taking offense. We should be able to laugh and enjoy and even to cheer on the comedians' disrespect to our sacrosanct ideals, assuming the comedians' jokes and delivery are, you know...funny. It keeps us from getting full of ourselves and believing our own bullshit.
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