I'm reading the live updates from "Trump Civil Fraud Trial Trump’s Trial in New York Fraud Case Begins/The former president is accused in a lawsuit of inflating his net worth to win favorable terms on loans. The trial is scheduled to last until the end of December but is expected to end sooner" (WaPo).
End of December! And a journalist doing the moment-by-moment commentary is already antsy and bored — projecting that boredom onto the jury that doesn't exist. Deep in the weeds... on Day One? You'll need to trek a thousand miles into those weeds.
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"But perhaps because [Judge] Engoron is the arbiter of fact here, Wallace seems to feel no qualms about a far more detailed, less flashy presentation...."
Engoron is basically giddy. And why wouldn’t he be giddy? He’s got several days of basically no work; just amusement. Generally accepted this or generally accepted that won't behoove this judge (to throw in a little Bonfire of the Vanities lingo), this judge already knows how he’s gonna decide.
Is it true that Trump's attorneys screwed up by not asking for a jury trial within the time limit? I thought he only hired the best people etc?
Trump's foes have given him godlike status. The banks were uniformly fooled? Independent appraisers were uniformly fooled? Wow!
Trump's powers to deceive bankers are second only to his physical dominance over hundreds of people. We all remember how Trump dressed in a sleeveless muscle shirt and carried an M60 machine gun as he rampaged around the Capitol building on Jan 6. We all remember, right?
There’s no upside in following the law, if the law happens to favor Trump.
Which is a deep in the weeds way of saying Trump is doomed.
Btw. Don’t go deep in the weeds or you might get tick bites.
The fix is in. This trial stuff is just theater. The fewer people watch it, the better for the fixers: because after the “judge” “decides” the case almost nobody will have the time, incentive, skill, grit and courage to dig back through the endless heaps of “argument” and “evidence” to identify where the judicial miscarriage occurred. And even if some rare remarkable soul dies that work, absolutely nobody will have the time, incentive, skill, grit and courage to listen to him or her try to explain the miscarriage and then act upon that knowledge.
It’s over. He’s guilty. And his supporters aren’t going to invest in a judicial process when their chance comes.
Not saying I like this. But it’s what I see coming, and it scares me.
The whole trial embarrasses the justice system. Who can take it seriously?
Two impeachments on falsified grounds. An indictment conceived in subjective treatment and violation of equal rights, civil rights. So politically congruent.
Business idea: start a background check for business.
Looking for property inspectors, Insurance appraisers, former FBI G men with lie detective experience, treasure hunters, tarot cards readers. eBay experts. and a fumigator.
Two sets of books? One overvaluing assets for loans and insurance but the other with undervalued assets for tax purposes. Waiting for the other boot to drop….
Democrats get sweetheart deals from Ukrainian energy companies - and Russian Uranium.
where are the indictments and trials?
The judge just noted that "nobody asked for" a jury trial, which is why he'll be presiding over Trump's $250M civil fraud case without one. I suspect Trump’s defense team probably did this intentionally because it's easier to blame a loss on a single judge than on a group of jurors.
A line from Fletcher Pratt's wonderful book "Empire and the Sea," about the result of a sedition trial in England in the 1790s--the jurors said that they "would not convict any man of a crime when it took the Attorney-General nine hours to tell what it was."
It's so noble of the NY Attorney General to stand up for those oppressed real estate banks who lent to the Trump organization. The poor darlings, they were so oppressed, they couldn't even be counted on to do due diligence on companies they extended commercial loans to! /sarc
Does the sarcasm above demonstrate just how stupid this trial is? The supposed victims of Trump's fraudulent over estimates were commercial banks. Don't you think if you do commercial lending to real estate operations in NYC, you know every over-estimation trick in the book? I'm sure that before these commercial banks lend money, they require heavy-duty due diligence, including site surveys.
No commercial bank has yet declared itself victimized by the Trumps, who seem to have paid their lines of credit back on time. So, the question remains -- on whose behalf is the state of NY bringing this suit? And, BTW, why is a state AG bringing a civil as opposed to criminal suit?
Political persecution, pure and simple.
The post says (WaPo) but the link says NYT. I only noticed because it's not loading for me. (Could be on my end.) I was going to look up the journalist to see if they have expertise in accounting/financial stories.
Like the lefts certain knowledge that Trump was cheating on his taxes this too will end badly for the left. This is how the real estate game is played all over the US. The seller has an appraiser. The buyer has an appraiser. The bank has an appraiser. At no time do any of those appraisals agree with each other.
"But perhaps because [Judge] Engoron is the arbiter of fact here, Wallace seems to feel no qualms about a far more detailed, less flashy presentation...."
Or perhaps it's because the outcome is preordained with this judge.
What Trump did, if the reports are accurate, is industry wide practice. The banks are in on it. There are no victims. Back in the day, we prosecutors referred to such cases as applications of "the chickenshit doctrine." In the 1990s the Clinton DOJ did the same thing to the Republican Governor of Arizona, whom Clinton later pardoned.
In a decent, honorable society James would be disciplined by the Bar Association for running on the Lavrentiy Beria platform: "If elected, I will get Trump - for something." So would Alvin Bragg.
It must be frustrating for Trump's lawyers, surrounded by crooked Democrats, to know they have lost before the first round.
"Two sets of books?"
Trump's book value is $5. Trump takes it to the bank claiming $7. Bank agrees and puts $7 on their books.
Bank has every opportunity to disagree and refuse the loan. They can even conduct their own appraisal. What NY's AG and handpicked judge has done is make most contract negotiations illegal.
Other real-world examples:
Nearly everyone agrees that Musk overpaid for the book value of Twitter. Did the Twitter Executives commit fraud?
In 2010, Washington Post sold Newsweek for $1, what was the book value of Newsweek? Did the Washington Post executives at the time commit fraud?
Starr Chamber Bullshit precedes execution of the King’s enemies. Courts have their uses.
A very wise man named Ben Franklin’s experience in that type court made him an into supporter of American Revolution.
I learned today that the crime of which Trump is accused requires neither intent on Trump's part, or even the vaguest inkling that he might be committing a crime, nor an actual victim, or any actual harm to any party at all whatsoever. Not only that, but he could have his assets seized for it. The trigger for a prosecution? An "R" after your name. I wonder how wealthy New Yorkers feel about this? That they could easily be next if they don't cough up the filthy lucre to exactly the right people to purchase protection?
It's almost hard to articulate the comprehensive wrongness of it. In a free market, the value of a fungible good needs must change according to the laws of supply and demand. A property's valuation will change quite literally by the day as a product of its condition, its location, and the traffic flow of commerce within and without.
A judge has just decided that the markets are wrong, and not only wrong, but liable for arbitrary penalty. When all the while, the markets have been minding their own business and doing quite well at it, thank you. And by staying silent because of the vehemence of the rage against Trump, none of it supportable in a legal context, the business world is agreeing with the judge that, yes, you should decide that we are wrong and penalize us, judge.
That's weird: I just spoke of not wanting to "get deep in the weeds" on the Mary Katherine Ham post - before seeing this one. What are the odds?
Gunner was in a quandary and asked: "Is it true that Trump's attorneys screwed up by not asking for a jury trial within the time limit? I thought he only hired the best people etc?"
Recall when former AG Bill Barr when asked what he would do if he was one of Trump's attorneys, he responded "Lawyer up".
Gunner, rethink your question.
How much is Mar-A-Lago worth? I have no idea, but whatever it is ... that's merely someone's opinion.
And we don't prosecute people for having an opinion in the United States. At least, we didn't used to. But now we do. Like in Nazi, Germany.
We are the Nazi's now and if you're paying your taxes then you are a Nazi too and you will deserve your fate. The same fate as all the Nazi's.
Boredom does tend to set in when the result is pre-determined and the actual drama is what is going to happen on appeal when presumably there is not a rank partisan as the judge.
If New York were to go after every business that did this, I suspect that everything beyond mom-and-pop stores would be gone within a decade, and the mom-and-pop stores would have gone out of business due to looting. They are very much trying to recreate Escape From New York.
The looney left is big mad Trump showed up to this shit show.
Is there even ONE objecting financial institution? How the AG has standing is beyond me, other that some rule that allows the government to sue whomever it wants whenever it wants and generally do whatever the hell it wants.
Trump's powers to deceive bankers are second only to his physical dominance over hundreds of people. We all remember how Trump dressed in a sleeveless muscle shirt and carried an M60 machine gun as he rampaged around the Capitol building on Jan 6. We all remember, right?
Was that before or after he commandeered the Presidential Limo by overpowering 5 Secret Service agents and Toonces, The Driving Cat?
Sometimes, it's hard to keep the timeline straight. Depends on what the "sworn testimony" calls for at that moment, I suppose.
Democrats are showing just how much they value “Democracy” and our “Institutions” by the repetitive actions they’ve taken.
How can one find common ground with such people? More importantly, why on Earth would one try?
Excellent comments on this post.
Rush Limbaugh's Palm Beach estate, which was a far more modest property than Mar a Lago, sold for $155 million.
"A property's valuation will change quite literally by the day as a product of its condition, its location, and the traffic flow of commerce within and without."
A brand-new car loses somewhere between 9–11% of its value the moment you drive off the lot. (Source Ramsey Solutions). Every car dealership is clearly guilty of fraud.
"The same fate as all the Nazi's."
A standing ovation in Canada?
The people who voted Kathy Hochul, Letitia James, and their coconspirators into office are by and large delighted with the prosecution of Trump. There's no apparent fear that these tactics undermine all of our rights as citizens of a free country.
They are giving the rest of us a lesson in civics. I wonder what people will do with the new knowledge? I doubt that we'll become a kinder, gentler nation. I doubt that our allegiances to our nation and state will be strengthened.
There MUST Be a way to turn this around. I mean, Trump should be able to make a profit off of the inevitable conviction.
There MUST Be a way to turn this around. I mean, Trump should be able to make a profit off of the inevitable conviction.
Mar-a-lago is Americas version of a castle. How much is an American castle worth? If you can find out how much is America loved, you might get closer to the Real price. It doesn’t help that we don’t have royalty. And it doesn’t help that hating on America is a sport. Mar-a-lago’s value is set by the value of the person who once owned it and who owns it now. Right now Trump’s value is bargain basement.
An example of what I’m talking about is a house once owned by say Mark Twain. That house would be highly prized by book lovers. In a similar way, Mar-a-lago could be worth a lot to American history lovers. You see? The problem with Mar-a-lago is that it’s loved by wrong people because it has been in the wrong peoples hands.
“One overvaluing assets for loans and insurance but the other with undervalued assets for tax purposes.”
Why would you want to undervalue assets for “tax purposes”
I assume you are referring to income taxes?
But assets are not taxed as income.
And profit on the sale of an asset, in simple terms, is determined by the difference between your selling price and your cost basis. So undervaluing the cost basis results in a higher tax bill, not a lower one.
“The judge just noted that "nobody asked for" a jury trial, which is why he'll be presiding over Trump's $250M civil fraud case without one.”
He hires only the best lawyers! They had two weeks to check the box that asked if they wanted a jury trial. It does make one suspicious.
I know NOTHING about the pending case about Trump's alleged misrepresentations about the square footages of his NYC properties. Because I used to practice real estate law in another large city, I know that there are different ways to measure the square footage of rental space (e.g., how do you account for the elevator corridor, which benefits all, or at least all upper-floor tenants?). I assume that the judge who (reportedly) has ruled that Trump was guilty of misrepresentation took all that into account -- But I haven't seen anything about that on line.
“Speaking to television cameras during the break, Trump calls for Justice Engoron to be disbarred. “This is a judge that should be out of office,” he said. “This is a judge that some people say could be charged criminally for what he’s doing.””
Trump is maaaaad! What did he think would happen? Is he so narcissistic that he thinks that he will always get away with illegality? Trump spoke of retribution, is this Trump getting his own rightful retribution?
I know NOTHING about the pending case about Trump's alleged misrepresentations about the square footages of his NYC properties. Because I used to practice real estate law in another large city, I know that there are different ways to measure the square footage of rental space (e.g., how do you account for the elevator corridor, which benefits all, or at least all upper-floor tenants?). I assume that the judge who (reportedly) has ruled that Trump was guilty of misrepresentation took all that into account -- But I haven't seen anything about that on line.
I will borrow the money to buy as many Mar-a-Lagos as possible at anything under $50 million.
The court and judge are a joke.
“What is Mar-A-Lago worth?
According to a New York post article:
https://nypost.com/2023/09/27/donald-trumps-mar-a-lago-worth-at-least-300m-sources/
Judge Egoron (rhymes with moron) set the value at $18 million based on an appraisal of the assessed value of the property by the Palm Beach assessor’s office. Anyone who pays property taxes knows that the assessed value of a property bears little resemblance to its actual market value for a number of reasons, the main one being that assessments are done infrequently and are only meant to show the relative value of a property relative to other properties in the community. For example, my home has not been reassessed in 20 or 30 years and is less than 20% of what its current market value is. A new home built in my neighborhood would would be assessed using baseline values as of the last community wide assessment.
For the judge to use this number shows either complete ignorance of what an assessed value is, or shows a shocking degree of bias against Trump and his organization. Or maybe both.
More IgnaRant® puhleeeze!
Our corrupt tyranny of a country continues to grow. In years past there would be an outrage at this corruption, but like the democrat “punch a Nazi today” program ( where democrats get to define anyone who is a Nazi, except themselves who truly are ) the ends justify the means.
Inga: Trump is maaaaad! What did he think would happen? Is he so narcissistic that he thinks that he will always get away with illegality?
Well, considering that pretty much anyone with property disputes how other people value it, especially with these sort of assets, and apparently everyone gets away with it except for Trump because everyone understands how this game is played, yes, I would think he would think he would get away with it. If this was the general rule of prosecution, as opposed to an obviously political hit job, there would not be any businesses left in New York. They would probably need to relocate the stock exchange, among other things. Also, all the banks.
Will the last person in NYC turn off the lights?
"Is he so narcissistic that he thinks that he will always get away with illegality?"
Like Rep. Bowman, who doesn't know a fire alarm from his dick?
No commercial bank has yet declared itself victimized by the Trumps, who seem to have paid their lines of credit back on time.
Personal anecdote: In the early eighties my my business was growing and I needed to expand. A new building and more machinery. I needed a loan. After examining my books the banker that was handling my loan said they couldn't lend what I was asking for but he thought we could value my current assets and the property I was looking to buy higher than what I was showing which would make the loan feasible. I've got to admit I was a business neophyte at the time and a bit nervous about it all plus 10%! interest on the loan, but it turned out fine for both of us. Guess I am a crook.
Same thing happened to the farmers when the banks were eager to loan at high interest rates on overvalued cropland about the same time as I remember.
$18m for Mira-Lago? Where do I sign? Could it be more obvious?
Why would Trump want a jury trial? They know this is a pure bullshit political hit job. It is much easier to appeal a verdict rendered by a single judge, than a jury verdict. (I'm old enough to remember the E. Jean Carrol "rape" trial verdict. It seems like that wasn't all that long ago...)
"The jury has spoken" has justified an awful lot of injustice. When a judge puts down on paper the reasons for his decision, the rightness or wrongness of the decision is apparent. The Appellate court can't duck it by saying it is within the elastic bounds of what the jury may have believed was true.
Jersey Fled--Indeed. Do you think anyone who wants Trump to be punished for his infidelity to Democrat Ideals is going to wonder why none of the alleged fraud ever came to the attention of the IRS, or the local taxing authorities?
Hey traditionalguy, on the off chance that you read this, would you elaborate on the Ben Franklin episode that you referenced? Ben was such a cluster of human accomplishment and self deception. He reminds me of a much smarter me.
The guy to read on this is Andrew McCarthy, who is on fire.
The Bolshevik bloc of the Democratic Party is having its fantasy prosecution of Donald Trump play out in real life in New York City. There, in state attorney general Letitia James’s civil-fraud case against the former president, the trial will begin today even though Trump was already found guilty and sentenced to corporate death last week by a robed apparat named Arthur Engoron.
What? Yeah, I know. It sounds crazy. But that’s because it is crazy — frighteningly crazy. Let me try to explain...
"Jersey Fled said...
“One overvaluing assets for loans and insurance but the other with undervalued assets for tax purposes.”
Why would you want to undervalue assets for “tax purposes”
I assume you are referring to income taxes?
But assets are not taxed as income."
Psst. Rich is an idiot. Always will be. You're wasting your time.
"Will the last person in NYC turn off the lights?"
They're going green, so that will sort itself out easily enough.
Ampersand said...
The people who voted Kathy Hochul, Letitia James, and their coconspirators into office are by and large delighted with the prosecution of Trump. There's no apparent fear that these tactics undermine all of our rights as citizens of a free country.
They are giving the rest of us a lesson in civics. I wonder what people will do with the new knowledge? I doubt that we'll become a kinder, gentler nation. I doubt that our allegiances to our nation and state will be strengthened.
10/2/23, 4:27 PM
Send them 100 more buses of illegals. Let them stew in their corruption.
There's no apparent fear that these tactics undermine all of our rights as citizens of a free country.
They are giving the rest of us a lesson in civics. I wonder what people will do with the new knowledge?
What came to my mind was Ross Perot’s “giant sucking sound” as other businesses realize the risk of operating in New York. All it takes is a disagreement with the AG, and now negotiated private contracts that set an agreed price can be fraud. That makes sense if you understand socialized central planning, which suggests private agreements on value shouldn’t be allowed over a government set value. But if you believe in free markets, you realize that in the effort to call Trump a fraud, New York just ruled a free market doesn’t exist in the state.
Judge Engoron is the arbiter of fact here....
Judge Engeron knows nothing about finance, nothing about real estate, nothing about banking practices. It's like a pig evaluating Mozart concertos.
If there are property taxes in that jurisdiction then there are also appraisers that work full time for the municipality, county or state.
So explain to me how anyone can be defrauded in such a case.
If this was the general rule of prosecution, as opposed to an obviously political hit job, there would not be any businesses left in New York. They would probably need to relocate the stock exchange, among other things. Also, all the banks.
There's not one piece of mortgaged property in the state that is taxed on a valuation that is identical to its appraised value during loan underwriting. Ergo, there is not one property owning company or individual that could not be persecuted in the exact same way, stripped of all their assets overnight by judicial fiat, if they fell foul of a vindictive prosecutor determined to use the law for partisan political purposes.
This is monstrously evil and dangerous. It is worse by far than anything Trump has done or threatened to do, and it will have exactly the opposite effect the government bootlickers and tyrants think it will. If it is allowed to stand, it would more than justify violent armed revolution to completely destroy the government that allows it.
Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon with his legions because his enemies in the Roman Senate were playing the exact same sort of games with him. Those who love our enemy occupation government better be careful what they wish for, because they might just get it.
Trump: Mar-a-Lago is worth $739 million.
Zillow - Mar-a-Lago is worth $24 million. That's less than one-thirtieth of the claimed value. If that claim is indicative of Trump's typical overestimation, then when he says he is worth $8 billion, he is really worth $267 million. That would explain why he is constantly begging for money from his supporters.
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