Said Major Nir Dinar, spokesperson for the Israeli Defence Forces, quoted in "How Hamas duped Israel as it planned devastating attack" (Reuters).
In one of the most striking elements of their preparations, Hamas constructed a mock Israeli settlement in Gaza where they practiced a military landing and trained to storm it, the source close to Hamas said, adding they even made videos of the manoeuvres.
"Israel surely saw them but they were convinced that Hamas wasn't keen on getting into a confrontation," the source said....
"We believed that the fact that they were coming in to work and bringing money into Gaza would create a certain level of calm. We were wrong," another Israeli army spokesperson said.
An Israeli security source acknowledged Israel's security services were duped by Hamas. "They caused us to think they wanted money," the source said. "And all the time they were involved in exercises/drills until they ran riot."...
Retired General Yaakov Amidror, a former national security adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu... said some of Israel's allies had been saying that Hamas had acquired "more responsibility." "We stupidly began to believe that it was true," he said. "So, we made a mistake. We are not going to make this mistake again and we will destroy Hamas, slowly but surely."
Posts
71 comments:
LOL.
Imagine if on 9/12 America had given al Qaeda New Jersey so they'd quit flying airplanes into our buildings.
If you give terrorists land, right next to your own country, then you shouldn't be too surprised when they come over the walls infiltrate your country and kill your citizens. This is Israel's fault because they tried to buy peace from evil people. You cannot purchase peace. You impose it. You kill the enemy until HE sues for peace. That is the only way wars end.
Not unrelated ... I wonder if all those Mexicans pouring over our Southern border realize that they're only being allowed in because the United States will need some cannon fodder in the coming battle.
"It's my nature," said the scorpion.
I heard this morning that the Israelis are doing what I suggested yesterday and totally blockading Gaza, cutting off electricity, fuel and food to the terrorists. They should probably blow up water facilities as well. War is hell.
It is shocking to my ear to hear government officials say they made grave errors of judgement and have accountability. That would NEVER happen with this group of corruptocrats. It’s an appalling byproduct of the culture of their age and era.
I hate I have to have this kind of cynicism.
How long can Gaza’s 2 million inhabitants survive without the water that Israel provides?
"From the outside looking in, anti-Zionists appear to think Israel was created from Nazi terror, but - for Israel to exist - it's had to terrorize the Palestinians. Now, if there's a problem with that narrative, some lie of omission or missing piece of evidence, I would think educators would make it their job to expose that, and end all disagreement. But, instead, "Teachers" call young people names.."
They were convinced, we believed: WTF? Has even Israel gone batshit crazy? The real "intelligence" failure was plain stupidity.
Newsflash: the Muslims want to kill you, remove you, scorch the earth. There's only one way out, but first you need to let go of your suicidal illusions. As do Americans.
A siege in Biblical times: Surround the walled the city, cut off all essential supplies. Starve 'em out.
It was reported by one the networks that Netanyahu's finance minister suggested the hostages will unfortunately be sacrificed in order to completely level Gaza.
China calling for a two state solution in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. Two state solution? Think China - Taiwan.
--- "they came in fast from many spots"
--- There was a mock Israeli village built in Gaza.
How could any intelligence agency miss all of this.
I miss the sure steady foreign policy hand of President Trump. Can't believe I just typed that.
We know all number of terrorists were let into the country by Joe Biden. Plenty of speculation that sleeper cells will attack Americans. If that happens, Biden will be impeached and convicted in record time. 98-2.
Sebastian said...
"They were convinced, we believed: WTF?"
Have you seen my blog? People believing crazy things, and the consequences of that, are all I'm concerned with - other than music. Unlike most of the people, here and elsewhere, I don't blame politics, for what's going on. I've lived in San Francisco for almost 30 years, and never met a crystal-waver who was studying Marxism, but they're still causing plenty of trouble in the world.
"Newsflash: the Muslims want to kill you, remove you, scorch the earth."
Here's a brilliant idea: right after the Nazis tried to wipe you out, why don't you build your new home right in the center of other people who want you dead?
Listen to me: I can't even find someplace where I feel safe and I've lived in California and France,...
By the way, my latest song is about getting stoned, which seems fitting for any discussion about the Israelis and Palestinians.
They get stoned, by each other, all the time.
After 9/11, and particularly after we went into Iraq, I supported our military effort there because I believed in the oil spot theory that was eventually articulated: that the ordinary people of Iraq would see the advantages to a Western-style culture and economy, the peace of pluralism, and set aside their traditional jihadin' ways.
Of course I was completely wrong. And it should have been easy for me to see that I was going to be wrong, since right next door, Iran had had a substantially Western-style culture and had not just lost it, but thrown it away.
I forgot, I think, that the United States was settled in large part by people who chose to take their chances here in the Wild Wild West of wildly mobile classes, economic opportunity regardless of origin, and aggressively tolerant attitudes. (And the fact that the descendants of slaves in the US have an utterly different origin story might explain some of the differences in both attitude and outcome among the poorest?) We don't do blood and soil, so to speak. But for so many people in so many places around the world, blood and soil still trumps opportunity and prosperity.
It would be premature, I think, for us to say we won't get fooled again, though.
Looks like the famous Israeli intelligence services have all gone lefty and dumb just like ours. But hey, they can still get jobs with CNN.
Remember when President Trump was going to start World War 3? Ah, good times.
If there was ever a time for Xi JinpingPong to overwhelm Taiwan, this might be it.
Notice that St Obama hasn't commented yet??
It was reported by one the networks that Netanyahu's finance minister suggested the hostages will unfortunately be sacrificed in order to completely level Gaza.
I suspect that there will be another Entebbe type moment, but this time most of the hostages will die. Then Gaza gets leveled.
We’re fucked.
Dave Begley said...
"We know all number of terrorists were let into the country by Joe Biden. Plenty of speculation that sleeper cells will attack Americans. If that happens, Biden will be impeached and convicted in record time. 98-2."
Not a chance. There are too many among us who cheer for Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah etc. Some silently, some loudly like The Squad. There are demonstrations all over America, all over Europe, in support of the killers. When the sleeper cells start doing their work and the dead, defiled bodies of innocents are dragged through the streets of America, there will be way more than 2% of Americans (and their representatives) who will cheer. Some silently, some loudly.
Blogger gspencer said...
How could any intelligence agency miss all of this.
It's like inviting Ukraine publicly to join NATO and then acting surprised when the Russians invaded.
Jamie @ 7:35am -- me, too. I was convinced we were helping an oppressed people who only needed a chance.
Now I'm reading articles about how the majority of Gaza-dwellers just want a thriving economy and peace, if only those Hamas fellows would get out of the way.
Israel is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
We were wrong.
That’s an understatement.
By the time this over, there will be far more dead Palestinians than Israelis. The Palestinians will, nonetheless, hail this as a great victory and plot their next atrocity....The stupidity is not localized in Gaza. Throughout the Muslim world from Pakistan to Algeria and on to Libya, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, the Muslims kill each other at a brisk rate. They prefer to kill Jews, of course, but when there are no Jews available, they murder Christians, rival sects, and scarf free women to fulfill their religious duty. It goes on and on, and it's never their fault.
Here's a brilliant idea: right after the Nazis tried to wipe you out, why don't you build your new home right in the center of other people who want you dead?
Crack open a book once in a while. There are extremely strong historical, religious and moral reasons why the Jews have a right to live in Israel.
Plenty of speculation that sleeper cells will attack Americans.
Where? The only places they could attack and not face massive resistance from armed civilians would be the liberal enclaves like the New York Upper West Side or Madison, Wisconsin. And even some residents of the latter have guns. A white pickup truck loaded with young men shooting AKs and M4s (provided by the Taliban) would not last long. In an upscale neighborhood in Fairfax County, Virginia, they could pick and choose targets. 100 miles west, in Woodstock or Winchester, not so much.
And that sort of answers hawkeyedjb. They’d have to attack their own cheerleaders.
We believed that the fact that they were coming in to work and bringing money into Gaza would create a certain level of calm. We were wrong
Sounds familiar.
"Here's a brilliant idea: right after the Nazis tried to wipe you out, why don't you build your new home right in the center of other people who want you dead?
Listen to me: I can't even find someplace where I feel safe and I've lived in California and France,...
It seems to me that you have deflated your own sarcastic point.
It's interesting to me to see how this tragedy is now being met with befuddled puzzlement: 'How did our intelligence services miss this?' and so on. But, wasn't it inevitable? The one-eyed, scarred generals are dead or retired. A new generation of generals is in charge. Israel has found out the cost of their 'luxury beliefs'. And they have re-proven the old adage, "You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality"
In this country, we have our own retinue of leaders that have come to embrace their 'luxury beliefs', too. Our national debt and open borders and over-dosing young people are the product. But don't worry, nothing bad will ever come of it.
hawkeye:
When there are sleeper cell attacks in the US, the sentiment changes.
******
Biden Death Toll: 850,000 and rising.
How could any intelligence agency miss all of this
One possible answer, they didn't miss it.
Dave Begley said: "We know all number of terrorists were let into the country by Joe Biden. Plenty of speculation that sleeper cells will attack Americans. If that happens, Biden will be impeached and convicted in record time. 98-2."
Not a chance. Protests popping up everywhere in support of Hamas.
Simple solution. The Palestinians want to push the Jews it the sea... so the Jews need to push the Palestinians into the sea (or at least Egypt.)
Take over the Gaza and don't let ANY Palestinians back in. Call it West Israel.
We don't do blood and soil, so to speak. But for so many people in so many places around the world, blood and soil still trumps opportunity and prosperity.
It's much more about Islam than simply blood and soil. Those Hamas "fighters" killing, raping and kidnapping women are doing it in the name of Allah and have been told, and fully expect, that they will be rewarded for their actions in the afterlife.
You cannot co-exist with those who refuse to co-exist with you.
Said it before on a prior thread, but I’ll say it again:
Pay close attention to the reaction on social media. Compare it to the reaction when Russian attacked Ukraine.
Both are unprovoked attacks. Both have “claims” over the land involved and long standing disputes.
Then, social media (and the MSM too) was flooded with “we stand with Ukraine” postings and Ukrainian flags and the MSM was 100% behind Ukraine. Congress and Biden sending shit tons of military support to Ukraine…
Now…
People in the streets supporting Hamas and the Palestinians, congress critters making stupid statements, MSM immediately talking about Israel’s “response” and how it needs to be tempered…
But somehow I’m deplorable.
Our southern border is a sieve; We’re damn near WWIII; and Joe Biden is at the helm in his “Captain’s hat” whistling a tune and smiling like an idiot.
Watch China and Taiwan closely…
"Now I'm reading articles about how the majority of Gaza-dwellers just want a thriving economy and peace, if only those Hamas fellows would get out of the way."
I imagine a Gazan mother explaining how her son could never do those horrible things. Sure he was hanging out with some rough kids, but he prayed at mosque regularly. Yes the imams preached hatred of Israel, but they'd always talked that way.
CAN YOU BELIEVE HE KIILLED BUCKWHEAT!?
If war crime trials do not follow, with executions of the guilty, the Israelis will have failed and lost this war.
A lot of speculation here about how they missed all this. I do not think anyone really yet knows. In the meantime, I recommend Miranda Devine's latest from the New York Post.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/08/failed-foreign-policy-gave-terror-the-element-of-surprise-agencies-blinded-by-joes-fiascos/
Read especially the section on the very peculiar Robert Malley, and the even more peculiar fact that he was put in charge of the Iran appeasement campaign and his part in suppressing an Iranian dissident group (MEK) which possibly could have contributed to this massive intelligence failure by both Israeli and U.S. intelligence efforts. Like I say, no one yet knows, but something very serious went wrong.
Hamas needs to be ripped out of Gaza, including the roots. In previous cases, the presence of hostages as seemed to freeze Israeli response. I have no idea about this time. If it were me, I'd be in a door kicking mode.
"Hamas delenda est"
Israel has had relative peace since '73 because everybody feared the IDF. To some extent that changed,
- the border can be beaten
- iron dome can be beaten
I expect that the IDF will not hold back in its necessary need to reestablish its Alpha status and seek absolution for its failure from the Israeli people. The IDF will go Full Roman
Not a good time to be in Gaza
PS: note the top Hamas guys happened to be in Qatar. Lucky them. Israel needs to PsyOp the heck out of that
I have to comment again (I did on Ann's other entry on Israel today) on Crack Emcee's version of history. Where he says: "Here's a brilliant idea: right after the Nazis tried to wipe you out, why don't you build your new home right in the center of other people who want you dead?"
Crack, like I said before, your history is all wet here. The "new home" Zionists built in Israel got going in the late 1800s, when the "other people" in Palestine were ALREADY occupied by the Ottoman Empire. Later the British took it over. By then a lot of Jews were already there, all of whom PURCHASED their land from the "other people" there who owned it and sold it willingly. By the 1930s, BEFORE the Holocaust, the Jewish community in Palestine was already agreeing to partition plans proposed by the British. All the Holocaust did was add to those who wanted to get to Israel, a land the Jews had been kicked out of 2,000 years ago, but which they ALWAYS saw their home, an "old home," not a "new home," and had never forgotten to see that way.
"There are extremely strong historical, religious and moral reasons why the Jews have a right to live in Israel."
Good point! If the Palestinians had had any sense, they would have found somewhere else to have extremely strong historical, religious and moral reasons to have a right to live, when they saw all those jews moving in.
Jamie said...
"After 9/11, and particularly after we went into Iraq, I supported our military effort there,...Of course I was completely wrong."
No, you weren't, it just went sideways. And that wasn't obvious before it started. Everybody's so pissed about Hamas, grabbing women and raping them, but now they want to pretend like it was wrong to go after Saddam and his sons, when they had rape rooms built into their palaces. And we put them in power.
We cannot go on living by narratives. That's my conclusion about all this.
Interesting how all of this is coming out immediately after the attack, as if someone knew all along. Maybe if those U.S. intelligence agencies had told Israel what they knew was coming, it could have been averted.
I guess you can't just walk away from Forever Wars after all.
Gahrie said...
"Crack open a book once in a while. There are extremely strong historical, religious and moral reasons why the Jews have a right to live in Israel."
Only certain people here act like I don't understand the issues. It's the usual suspects. Gahrie, accept reality: no one over there gives a shit. It looks like Israel was created because no one else wanted to take the Jews during or after WWII - including us. If true, putting that on the backs of the Palestinians is not right, and not their responsibility.
And they have been making that clear for 75 years.
War crimes:
Per the Geneva accords, war crimes can occur in a recognized conflict - but certain criteria have to be met.
1. Both sides need to be uniformed militaries. (Yes, both sides need to have an organized, structured military.) Combatants MUST be recognizable as belonging to one side or the other, or at the very least have identification as a member of the respective military.
2. Combatants are NOT to embed themselves within civilian populations - or put civilians at risk through putting military supplies/depots/bivouacs in areas where the population may be hurt or killed if attacked.
3. Conducting military activities - you must try to the greatest extent to AVOID inflicting civilian casualties.
Violate #1 - and you're an un-uniformed combatant, subject to summary judgement when caught. You get caught, they can kill you with no repercussions.
Violate #2 and #3 - and if you don't get killed during the conflict you're liable to trial later, if someone notices and documents it.
Calling something a war crime doesn't mean it is one. That's for the lawyers to decide in the aftermath. And the winner of the conflict - well, they're not going to much care about the legalities unless things are REALLY bad, like in WW2.
That said - if BOTH SIDES aren't operating under the Geneva Accords - then the laws pushed forward by the Accords DO NOT APPLY to EITHER side. If one side wants to go by the Accords, that's their choice. But the other side doesn't need to follow them.
(Which is why we've had such trouble once we cease active combat operations. Insurgents and the like do not follow the Accords, but our military's tried damned hard to conform to them even when it was to our great disadvantage. It's like fighting with one hand behind your back and blindfolded.)
HAMAS has, to my knowledge, not met any of the requirements for protection under the Geneva Accords. The Palestinians are noted for putting their kids on the front lines, knowing the media optics will be WONDERFUL for them if a kid gets hurt. So - they're always violating the Accords - but they're not bound by it so why should they care?
The Palestinians have had many chances for peace - even before the death of Arafat. But they've never missed a chance to pass it up. At this point, I don't think they can pull out of a suicidal ideation that requires them to try to destroy Israel.
So - whatever Israel needs to do to survive is, IMO, acceptable. It sucks, but there's no recourse, no coexistence possible with a group that actively intends to kill you.
Aggie said...
'luxury beliefs'.
AKA the Therapeutic Mindset. Also known as NewAge. Remember when Colin Powell said we were gonna go into Iraq, find their army, and then "kill it," and Barbara Boxer asked why he had to say "kill it"? Or when we were going after MS 13 and Nancy Pelosi cautioned "They're all God's children"? THAT'S the Therapeutic Mindset.
And yes, it's now in our military, too.
'Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand."' Matt. 12:25
Jesus and Lincoln saw the problem. Neither would necessarily be familiar to Israelis, but preoccupation with political division diminished the effectiveness of their intelligence community and their military who were busy being "anti-right-wing."
Does that seem at all familiar?
We believed that the fact that they were coming in to work and bringing money into Gaza would create a certain level of calm. We were wrong,
When dealing with monsters it's crucial to not interact with them as if they were normal people.
some of Israel's allies had been saying that Hamas had acquired "more responsibility."
That would be Biden.
We stupidly began to believe that it was true. So, we made a mistake. We are not going to make this mistake again and we will destroy Hamas, slowly but surely.
Dealing with monsters.
Kate said...
Israel is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you're ever in that situation, always choose "damned if you do".
"It looks like Israel was created because no one else wanted to take the Jews during or after WWII - including us. If true, putting that on the backs of the Palestinians is not right, and not their responsibility."
It might look like that to you, but the facts are otherwise. For one thing, Jews had been living there more or less continuously since biblical times, and in significant numbers for 100 years. The Ottoman empire was being carved up, with plans going back to 1917 to give a little sliver of it for a Jewish state, limited to where Jews had been living already. The Arabs (they weren't even called "Palestinians until the mid-1960s) wouldn't even accept that. Too bad, they lost the war. And a large portion (~50 percent) of the Jews arriving in Israel after 1948 were refugees from other areas of the Middle East where they'd been persecuted for centuries.
The Drill SGT said...
In previous cases, the presence of hostages as seemed to freeze Israeli response.
Entebbe.
- You have no alternative but start with the asssumption that the hostages are already dead. To do otherwise is to play into the hands of the kidnappers. See Jimmie Carter, 1979. If an unlikely opportunity arises to rescue some of them you take it, but this cannot guide your response to the situation.
- You make Hamas and Gaza howl, in every way available to you.
- Endgame: you go in and salt the earth.
Jupiter said:
Good point! If the Palestinians had had any sense, they would have found somewhere else to have extremely strong historical, religious and moral reasons to have a right to live, when they saw all those jews moving in.
Well. The same might be said of Americans and Third World immigrants today.
Jon Burack said...
"I have to comment again (I did on Ann's other entry on Israel today) on Crack Emcee's version of history."
And, again, you are missing what I'm saying and getting way too personal about it. There is a Palestinian narrative. It is easy to understand. That's why it has teeth. Your counter-narrative is complicated, and accepts whatever happened with the British as OK with everybody, when, you know, what happened under colonialism wasn't even OK with Roosevelt.
As I've stated elsewhere, this is not my fight. I am seeking answers, because I live in a world of lies that no one wants to fix, even when it comes to something like homeopathic water being "medicine". As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't passionate about fixing something as simple as that, then you don't give a damn about anything more important, because you've left the door open and reality's run away. Hitler and Himmler and Hess were all consulting psychics as they were putting Jews in ovens, but, for some reason, no one gets concerned when psychics are doing a booming business now. 'Mystically' dishonest men and women, positioned all over the world, for gullible people to come and tell the world's most intimate secrets.
Excuse me, I have take a break and vomit after THAT re-realization of what a fucked-up set up this fucking world is,......
Oligonicella said...
"When dealing with monsters it's crucial to not interact with them as if they were normal people."
Every Holocaust and WWII documentary I've ever seen takes the time to remind us that the Nazis were normal people, just like you and I. Well, you anyway. I seem to be unique (LOL): I'm watching historical documentaries while you guys are making sure the MCU stays nice and fat with cash, convincing your children that - as Thor says - Gods practice magic that we call 'Science'".
I will take the time to remind you of the words of Voltaire: that if you can be convinced to believe absurdities, then you can be convinced to commit atrocities. And we are already there.
Oligonicella said...
Israel is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't.
WWJD?
if Palestinians had had any sense, they would have found somewhere else...
There are no "Palestinians" as almost all are ethnic Jordanians. The ones no one liked were kicked out by Jordan and Lebanon and could choose to live peacefully in Gaza or the West Bank, but they don't. Palestine is like South America, referring to a region not a country. Israel has given up some of their historical homeland to accommodate these Jordanians and Lebanese who can't for whatever reason go "home" but there is no "Palestinian claim" to Israel now or historically. There are Jews and Gentiles, many of which leave peacefully amongst each other in the only functional representative democracy in the Middle East region.
Plenty of speculation that sleeper cells will attack Americans.
Where? The only places they could attack and not face massive resistance from armed civilians would be the liberal enclaves like the New York Upper West Side or Madison, Wisconsin.
Sure, but I doubt you see a truck riding around with gunmen hangng out the back.
You'll see a bomb under the stands at a high school football game. Poison in a water treatment plant. Key bridges taken out in high traffic areas (think Talladega race day) for economic chaos. A rural grade school... churches, etc.
Lots of hit and run targets.
Buckwheathikes won the thread, and with the first post. Bravo!
The Crack Emcee at 717am. Nice post and funny. Giggled for straight 30 seconds.
Re Jerry and War Crimes at 1103-
It's a war crime to embed military stuff in civilian areas to use civilians as shields. If Side A does this and Side B goes after Side A and incidentally kills the civilian/shields, the blame for the dead civilians goes to Side A.
In this case, Side A (Hamas) puts its military assets in the basements of hospitals and inside schools and residential neighborhoods. If Side B (IDF) kills the civilians, it's Side A that is guilty of the war crime.
That's basic stuff I learned in Basic Training decades ago.
It's also a war crime to capture, rape, and torture civilian women. I learned that also.
Side B has no obligation to follow the Geneva protocols under these circumstances. The only reason that Hama exists today is that Side B has followed them nonetheless, in the past. Perhaps Side B will come to their senses.
Jamie at 735am. Nice post. I was in favor of the Iraq war (2003), and served in it, although my contributions were miniscule.
I believe in the concepts of David Frum's "Axis of Evil" speech. Iran, North Korea, and Saddam's Iraq were/are clusterfucks. Although I will take Iraq now over Saddam led Iraq.
I hope, in the long run, a Saddam free Iraq will leave the Middle East in a better state. But I could be wrong. I supported the idea to role the dice and that was partly why I joined the military then, to assuage my concerns about the challenges and shortcomings (I though we would be greeted as liberators by many).
Cheers.
One point that The Crack Emcee has repeatedly advanced is that Palestinians' hatred of Israel is some kind of an understandable human reaction to "foreigners" moving into their home. I don't buy that as comprehensive or explanatory. In fact, Israel did not kick out all Arabs when it became a state or during all those wars when Arab neighbors were united against Israel. Arab Israelis chose to stay and continue to be more and more integrated into the fabric of Israel, half the doctors in Israel are Arabs, for example. No one is claiming perfect equality but they are better off than the most of the Arabs in the Middle East, if they aren't in the elite classes.
I'm saying that there is another human reaction, that it's also understandable to adjust and adapt to change. As this article above explains many Gazans got work permits to work in Israel, having decided to get on with living their lives. Previously there was in 2019 a major demonstration in Gaza by people protesting against Hamas economic failures, quickly surpressed of course. Gaza economic protests expose cracks in Hamas's rule I get that Israel optimistically took all those signals that Gazans wanted economic advancement and prosperity and a positive change.
All that said, I think another deeper natural instinct at play here explaining the Palestinian hatred towards Israel is that when people believe they are superior to a group of people if/when those people prove themselves more capable they will be hated. That's the instinct which underlies much hatred and bigotry towards Blacks in the US imo. I am surprised Crack doesn't recognize that factor in the Arab world's hatred of Israel and the Jews. The Jews are mentioned many times in the Quran in very derogatory terms, as being enemies of Muhammed and the Muslims. Many West Bank and Gazan Palestinians have never met a Jewish person and believe their religious teachers. Muslims are supposed to be superior and running the whole world. Seeing Jews create a thriving and successful nation is a bitter pill.
Fortunately there are changes taking place in the Muslim world, they are less isolated, more tolerant of others, less dedicated to the destruction of Israel, more open to becoming mutual partners. I hope that progress can hold, it may not. I think Iran saw that and that's why they decided to help Hamas and Hezbollah. That's why as we go forward this is less about Palestine and more about ISIS type Islam.
The Crack Emcee (10/9/23, 1:21 PM)
Oligonicella said...
Who are you talking to? Your response doesn't describe me.
"Who are you talking to?"
Crack is a Youpeopleist. He's no dummy, but he tends to list things that he doesn't like and talk about his long struggle to expose and correct them, no thanks to Youpeople.
In truth, Zionism was an idealistic intrusion of modern Europe (they were SOCIALISTS, y'all, most of them, and Atheists, a lot of them) into a backward part of a backward empire. The flight before and after Hitler just drove it home, with most of the idealism burned out.
All sides find the Narrative that suits their purposes; my own understanding through the fog of war and the smog of politics is simple--this is just warming up.
Rosalyn C. said...
"One point that The Crack Emcee has repeatedly advanced is that Palestinians' hatred of Israel is some kind of an understandable human reaction to "foreigners" moving into their home. I don't buy that as comprehensive or explanatory."
Whoa. I don't understand anybody. I'm the atheist, remember? I'm sorting this shit out as best I can, too. Just as I can't fathom why we can't stop people from waving crystals around, I'm just as mystified by Jews arrogantly calling themselves God's "chosen people" as I am Muslims getting all crazy at the mere mention of their "holy" bullshit. I'll say it again, differently this time: we know America has a terrible education system, but we're blaming students and others for taking a position that has been badly explained. I know this, I've lived in this country almost my whole life. As a member of the military, I was actually involved in this. As such, I don't take civilian rah-rah talk about war seriously from anybody. Kill them all.
"All that said, I think another deeper natural instinct at play here explaining the Palestinian hatred towards Israel is that when people believe they are superior to a group of people if/when those people prove themselves more capable they will be hated. That's the instinct which underlies much hatred and bigotry towards Blacks in the US imo. I am surprised Crack doesn't recognize that factor in the Arab world's hatred of Israel and the Jews."
"More capable" always starts with "has access to modern weapons". Some people aren't as impressed by that, as a historical fact, as others. That's why I'm asking for counter narratives: I understand "might makes right," but - when it comes to resentment - does anybody have anything better?
"Fortunately there are changes taking place in the Muslim world, they are less isolated, more tolerant of others, less dedicated to the destruction of Israel, more open to becoming mutual partners. I hope that progress can hold, it may not. I think Iran saw that and that's why they decided to help Hamas and Hezbollah. That's why as we go forward this is less about Palestine and more about ISIS type Islam."
I wish I had something more profound than saying "Islam is insane, ISIS or otherwise" but that's how I feel. But you could stick another belief system in its place, and the statement still works for me. When not causing trouble, the religious insist that we NEED religion in our lives, when everyone knows there are people who are living perfectly "happy" lives without it, and will gladly tell you that the only major problem of existence is having religion surrounding and invading our lives. if I have a problem with anything going on, that's it. The idea, that the religious are killing each other, or otherwise annoying someone - for any reason - is just par for the course.
Narr said...
"Crack is a Youpeopleist. He's no dummy, but he tends to list things that he doesn't like and talk about his long struggle to expose and correct them, no thanks to Youpeople."
When I first got here, I was talking about cults. Everyone said they didn't exist, and gave me shit. Called me crazy. No one does that anymore. Now I get to watch Joe Rogan saying how Douglas Murray is enlightening him, to how "they" want to blur the boundaries of reality, without saying who "they" are. I do. I've been here, saying it, for a decade. It's the NewAge movement. Bill Clinton really got the ball rolling when he was in Ken Wilber's cult and legitimized alternative medicine, starting the corrosion of Science in public life. Ann, obviously, has some interest in it, but the rest of you? None of "you people" take it seriously enough. I see it in your comments. You still think NewAge is some 1970s flaky shit when cultists are taking over and wiping out our world.
If there's something wrong with seeing things way, well, fuck me.
There you go again, Crack.
The Crack Emcee said...
I'm the atheist, remember?
One of.
When I first got here, I was talking about cults. Everyone said they didn't exist,
Sentence one, correct. Sentence two, utter bullshit.
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