१० ऑक्टोबर, २०२३
"That peace-oriented Israelis were among Hamas’s targets has fueled further resentment of the Netanyahu government..."
"... which was caught by surprise on Saturday when Hamas fighters from the Gaza Strip streamed into Israel on Saturday, meeting little resistance.
Some Israelis said that, by contrast, the country’s military forces had been beefed up to protect settlers in the West Bank, who have clashed repeatedly with Palestinian residents.
Rachel Gur, an Israeli involved in the search for the missing, said that many of the residents of the collectives near Gaza had similar politics. 'These are kibbutzniks, the people who vote for the left, who support coexistence,' she said. 'You’re talking about the old time secular leftists, who want peace, who are against annexation.'..."
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“Some Israelis said that, by contrast, the country’s military forces had been beefed up to protect settlers in the West Bank”
How would the peaceniks near Gaza have reacted to a strong military presence there? They probably would have opposed it.
Boy that's an awkward sentence you turned into a headline. It hurt my head when I mentally diagrammed it. So the dead people resent Bibi now too? I'm sure they'll get a vote in the next election if the Mossad is at least as devious as our Intelligence Agencies.
Hopefully these peace activists will help stop the Israeli GOvernment from being doing something evil or inhumane to the Palastinians. We need to stop the cycle of violence.
"That peace-oriented Israelis were among Hamas’s targets has fueled further resentment of the Netanyahu government..."
What does it take to get through to these people?
You can't fix stupid.
It's a greater tragedy when someone is killed while dancing for peace? Governments aren't supposed to have better developed defensive plans for established communities than for some one off gathering in the desert?
That an...interesting...perspective.
"'These are kibbutzniks, the people who vote for the left, who support coexistence,' she said. 'You’re talking about the old time secular leftists, who want peace, who are against anexation.'..."
Pacifism is the most luxurious of affluenza's symptoms. A tremendous luxury. The afflicted usually don't pay for it either, but their descendants always do. Then some.
Peace Activists Are Among the Israelis Missing and Killed
Unarmed, unsuspecting, peace-loving people are the easiest targets for terrorists. Over on the West Bank peace-loving kibbutznikim were fighting for their lives and the lives of their families so of course the IDF was focused there. Duh. BWhy “peace-oriented Israelis” have “further resentment of the Netanyahu government” is beyond me. The attack was a massive failure of military intelligence and the “peace-oriented Israelis” obviously were targeted because they were soft, easy, targets.
Like Jason Aldean sang, “Try that in a small town.” Where we fill the hollows in our hollow point ammo with bacon grease so any Muslim we shoot dies with pork fat in his belly.
What percent of Israelis own guns?
Recent figures published by the National Security Ministry indicate that barely 150,000 Israelis have a personal gun license, or some 2.6% percent of the entire adult population (15-64). This figure excludes approximately 400,000 illegal firearms, the vast majority circulating in Arab communities.
Israel’s Firearm Law of 1949 and its related ordinances do not recognize any “right to bear arms,” and private gun ownership is subject to many restrictions. For one, civilians can only apply for a pistol, and rifles are wholly off-limits. Furthermore, as a general rule, civilians can have no more than 50 bullets in their possession at any given time.
The Mostly Peaceful fall of 2023 meets the Mostly Peaceful summer of 2020. Blue people turn a blind eye and blue people die.
The pure compassion ideology fails for the 10,000,000,000th time.
The Israelis around Gaza were basically unarmed and dependent on the security forces to protect them. That was a major error. Every Israeli in the area needed to have their army issued weapons near at hand with the ammo to fight a protracted battle.
This is always the problem with depending on police to protect you- when seconds matter, the police are only minutes away, or in this particular case several hours. I am still stunned to learn that Israeli citizens most of whom serve time in the IDF are highly trained, aren't allowed to be heavily armed in civilian life. Surrounded by enemies that would happily slit their throats and rape and torture their children, I am flabbergasted they were unable to offer any returning fire.
Reports that babies had their heads cut off.
Peace isn't possible with Hamas. Only total defeat.
"'These are kibbutzniks, the people who vote for the left, who support coexistence,' she said. 'You’re talking about the old time secular leftists, who want peace, who are against annexation.'..."
"And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire"
Usually Americans Progressives get to advocate for their causes without harming themselves. If you send your kids to expensive private schools, for instance, creating horrendous public schools does not personally affect you. In fact, it might even benefit you, by reducing the competition your mediocre kids face when applying to college.
Lately, though, things seem to be changing. It's great to say that you live in a sanctuary city until getting to the Yale Club means navigating past the Roosevelt Hotel's "asylum seekers." And all of those crack-of-dawn swim practices you and your daughter endured growing up did not result in an Ivy League championship because she lost to Lia Thomas.
The Progressives in Israel are similarly misguided. The difference is that their stupidity -- and selfishness -- can lead to their death. As sad as that is, what is worse is that it can also kill their more realistic co-religionists who understand that many, many people want all Jews dead.
Jews who support the cause of Hamas deserve what they get.
Apparently there are a lot of them.
Most sane people want peace, but it doesn't work that way when it's the desire of only one side.
You want peace. Hamas wants to rape your family before they kill you all.
Those two things are not the same.
Someone missed the point.
So, long established terrorists who have been trying to kill Jews for decades, have never tried to hide that they have been trying to kill Jews for decades, are exceptionally proud of the Jews they have managed to kill, have continually been attacking Israel through this year, and will not stop until Israel is completely annihilated, launches a massive terrorist attack that kills hundreds if not thousands of civilians, kidnaps even more, and threatens to execute the hostages. Mossad, which is supposed to be the elite intelligence agency in the world, misses this completely, despite it requiring a large build up to pull off that they should have detected easily. Mossad is also actively trying to undermine Netanyahu to the point that they are not even trying to hide it, which makes you wonder if the institution has been corrupted by politics to the point that it can no longer do its job or if it let this happen intentionally. And the problem is the Netanyahu government. Not the terrorists. Not Mossad. Not Iran that has been funding all this. Netanyahu.
Not too often you get to see the trope "To Dumb to Live" is real life, but there you go.
Let's talk about gun control in Israel.
The average Israeli is UNABLE to own a gun. When you disarm the population, of course you make them easy targets.
Jews need to come to grips with their insane politics. The Democrat Party in the United States is the ones who are funding the terrorists through their gifts of billions of dollars to Iran, a state-sponsored terrorist nation no different from Afghanistan.
Israel has adopted "progressive" gun control. So now Jews are sitting ducks. The next Holocaust isn't going to need any fancy ovens.
So, the leftists that have been focused on the eradication of Netanyahu, the ones that have been using the machinery of government in an no-holds-barred, bare-knuckle political battle, using Lawfare and other such corrupted tactics against a political enemy, are upset that Netanyahu might have been distracted, defending himself from the prospect of political / criminal prosecution? And he is somehow responsible for the IDF and Mossad taking their eye off the mission ball, so to speak, so they can persecute their political enemy instead? 'Look what he made us do', they say. 'Just look.'
What happened to the Iron Dome? Why was it down?
Gun ownership and training in Israel should be MANDATORY. "An AR15 in Every Pot."
"Don't shoot! I'm one of the good ones!"
We saw this happen in NYC last week...
"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." -- Leon Trotsky
The do-gooders learned to their dismay that the crocodile will not eat them last.
Some of those caught up in the attack by Palestinian fighters lived in residential collectives whose members tend to support peace initiatives and Palestinian rights" (NYT).
Thematically echos Ryan Carson's stabbing.
That makes total nonsense.
Morons. Just like those idiots in urban areas who think proclaiming themselves an "ally", that "black lives matter," or voting to defund the police will somehow protect them from being murdered by an aspiring rapper.
Kibbutzim tend to be leftist operations. They were socialist experiments in living that got Israel first up and running, but proved to be a fairly stagnant way of life. They still operate all over the country as farming communities and thereby feeding many. But the nation became very much a capitalist workhorse, producing goods and services (and patents) well beyond what would be expected from such a small nation. NYT is doing what it does. Taking a horror, and finding a way to further split up the people by making this about how the poor leftists fared worse. It's not about left or right. It's simply about right and wrong.
They should note that the Kibbutzes were targeted due to their location close to Gaza- as were some cities. But the fact that the residents may have been peaceniks- if that is true- I'm sure was not lost on those planning the attacks.
sheep should not eat lunch with wolves.
People who were actively involved in weakening the ability of Israel to protect its border are now mad at the government based on the results of their efforts. Why do so many leftists believe in magical thinking about the savage?
When everything the other side does proves your side right, there's no room for shock and awe.
Scott Adams yesterday morning:
Like the rest of you, I'm trying to understand the Hamas strategy.
On the surface, it looks insane. There's no real hope of conquering Israel, and no hope it will make anything better for anyone. Nor can any "expert" explain their strategy without appeal to some form of group insanity.
But Hamas seems too capable to be dismissed as crazy people. And their Iranian handlers are likely not insane either.
So I rule out "making anything better" as a Hamas objective.
What is left?
Israel's response will (necessarily) create civilian hardship in Gaza that is likely to shock the civilized world. And that will, in theory, weaken Israel's holocaust narrative that is -- by far -- it's most valuable asset.
Looks to me as if Hamas is playing a long game. Step one, weaken the Holocaust narrative and gain more militant supporters across the region. All it will cost Hamas is severe hardship for 1.7 million people on their side. But few of those people were thriving.
That makes Saudi Arabia the most important player in this drama. When and if they take a side, the new narrative is formed.
[Note: I don't know anything about this topic. But neither do the experts. None saw this coming.]
"Peace through coexistence" isn't a thing.
Yeah, don't blame the actual terrorizing rapists and murderers who for years have been calling for your deaths.
You cannot coexist with people who do not wish to coexist with you. It's time for Israelis to decide if they have the continued stomach to be a nation or not.
Hamas wants all Jews in Israel dead. No. Hamas doesn't care if you want peace. Naturally, the peace activists are mad at the clear-eyed of their own country, who understand the true nature of their collective enemy.
"Paging Charles Darwin. Charles Darwin to the white courtesy phone, please."
"We’re in a war between savages and civilization. Everything else is a detail.
Some of us woke up to that war when planes crashed into skyscrapers. Others when we saw beheading videos spread across social media. What we saw in Israel, Hamas terrorists raping, mutilating and defiling corpses, is another bloody wake-up call. There will be many others.
Beyond the politics and the geopolitics, we still haven’t come to terms with what we’re fighting.
The barbarism of murdering women and children, taking them as hostages, and posting photos of their dead bodies to social media, is not a byproduct of Islamic warfare, it’s the whole point.
Cruelty, beheading, burning to death, torturing and mutilating are the essence of Islam. This is how Islamic warfare was practiced beginning with Mohammed for over a thousand years. It’s how it continues to be practiced, whether it’s ISIS fighting other Muslims, Azebajani troops killing Armenians, Hamas attacking Israelis, or Islamic terrorists plotting carnage in Western nations.
Islam was born out of a war by barbarians against the civilized societies of Persia and Byzantium. Despite academic mythmaking, its vision never extended beyond rape and slavery, its empires fell into power struggles, beginning with Sunnis and Shiites, and its cultural and scientific accomplishments were all looted from conquered peoples. When civilization finally toppled the Ottoman Empire with some help from its internal barbarians, the cycle began again...
...The question is how do civilized societies confront savagery? Do we blame ourselves for having made the savages what they are through our capitalism and colonialism even though they have behaved this way long before modern western civilization amounted to anything? Or do we set forth to reeducate them, to build modern nations for them and teach them to become civilized?
We have sent forth our sons and daughters to make peace with them and to educate them. Our societies opened themselves to embrace and celebrate the virtues of the noble savage. When we realized that we could not coexist with savages, we tried to remake our societies to serve them. All of that has been tried and civilization is still drowning in the violence of the savages.
The fundamental truth is that civilization and savagery are innately at war with one another...
...Savages and decadent civilizations have no firm concept of right and wrong. Everything is subjectively opportunistic and there can be scenarios in which raping a woman, killing her and then posting a photo of her body to social media so her family can see is actually right.
That is why civilization has to defeat savagery, without equivocation, apologies or sympathy, not only to win, but to revive its own soul. Negotiations and laws of war are for peer civilization. Savages offer nothing and so are owed nothing. They keep no agreements except when it suits them. Their word is worthless and their morality is non-existent.
A civilization that does not understand all this will learn it the hard way.
Civilizations are built on the suppression of savagery: both internally and externally.. When civilizations defeat savages, learning, art, science and ideas thrive. And when civilizations allow savages to ravage them, they lose their people, their morality and eventually their existence.
No form of war is more sacred than that of civilization against savagery. It is these wars that made Christianity and Judaism, not to mention all the ideas of western civilization, as well as those of Asia and India, possible. This is once again the defining struggle of our age.
Either civilization or the savages will prevail. Any attempt at a middle ground is suicide."
-- Daniel Greenfield (via Ace)
I saw an interview with a father whose child (children?) had been killed and/or kidnapped from the music festival, and he allowed as how "they were not the people who should have been killed." Making allowances for the situation and the possibility that English isn't his native language, it still seemed an interesting way of putting it.
Later, one of the talking heads on MSNBC was given his chance to comment, and pretty much wanted to spin the whole thing as a form of protest against Netanyahu's judicial overhaul
program.
The ideology of Hamas has never had a "Jewish peace activist" carve-out. The Hamas covenant is pretty explicit.
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
Someone needs to explain to peace-oriented people why, even though peace is usually better than war, peace-oriented people are usually horrible dangerous fools who inflict great harms upon others. Jewish peace activists are alive because "war activists" won them a chance to live.
The ideology of Hamas has never had a "Jewish peace activist" carve-out. The Hamas covenant is pretty explicit.
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
Someone needs to explain to peace-oriented people why, even though peace is usually better than war, peace-oriented people are usually horrible dangerous fools who inflict great harms upon others. Jewish peace activists are alive because "war activists" won them a chance to live.
And yet, most wars, Springs, occupations, and parades are prosecuted by left-wing ideologues. #HateLovesAbortion
Palestinian liberation organization. They aborted peace once, twice, and now a trifecta of peace-loving progress.
Why are you shocked? Did you think they would attack heavily armed Israelis?
The Terrorist attack to inflict maximum damage... i.e. body count.
They will always attack the 'peace loving' WHO ARE UNARMED! first.
That is the way with terrorist. That is who they are.
Plan accordingly.
rcocean: "Hopefully these peace activists will help stop the Israeli GOvernment from being doing something evil or inhumane to the Palastinians. We need to stop the cycle of violence."
How is it a cycle? Israel withdrew from Gaza, leaving it (temporarily) independent. And Gaza was taken over for a terrorist organization that does not want to build a society; it wants to destroy all Jews in what are or ever have been Muslim lands.
One participant in the "violence" is Jordan. Jordan occupies more than half the territory that was originally called "Palestine" by the Romans and much later the Turks and then the British. Why weren't "Palestinians" welcomed into Jordan? (Or Syria, or Egypt, or Lebanon, or . . . .)
Let me get this straight. Some people say they want to kill you, but you think they don’t really mean it. So you move next door. And then they DO kill you. And so your response is to get mad at the guy trying to warn you off? That makes sense.
This was horrifying and I truly hope and pray something good can come of it. I don’t know what that can be.
The Israelis need to adopt the Swiss solution. In 1960 I was an AFS exchange student in Switzerland, living with a Swiss family. At the time, and perhaps even today, Switzerland's male population had a mandatory military obligation that lasted until age 50. There was an initial year of full time service and training, followed by reserve duty obligations which decreased as the man aged, but did not end until age 50. Each person kept his military weapon and ammunition in his home. The oldest son in my Swiss family as a lieutenant in a tank unit.
Tough to keep a tank at home, but he had an assault rifle in his bedroom. Not something like a puny AR-15 either--it was a Swiss version of a full fledged German Sturmgewehr.
If reservist members of the IDF were allowed to retain their weapons and keep them in their homes, it would be harder for Hamas to perpetrate such atrocities.
'Scott Adams yesterday morning:
Like the rest of you, I'm trying to understand the Hamas strategy.
On the surface, it looks insane. There's no real hope of conquering Israel, and no hope it will make anything better for anyone. Nor can any "expert" explain their strategy without appeal to some form of group insanity.
But Hamas seems too capable to be dismissed as crazy people. And their Iranian handlers are likely not insane either.'
The average Palestinian is not very smart (see my post yesterday re: Palestinian IQ).
While the average Iranian (not Arab, btw) is very smart.
They are using the idiot Hamas as canon fodder to kill Jews.
It's not about territory or land...that's just a bonus.
It's about wiping Jews off the face of the earth.
The author, Roni Caryn Rabin, Oberlin and Columbia Journalism, has been covering health issues at the Times for a few years and before that at Newsday.
I don't see her as having any particular insight into the thinking of Israelis at this time, whether kibbutzniks or otherwise, as her information appears to have come from reading Haaretz. There's no sign that she conducted the interviews which she quoted.
I'm a little surprised this got published as written at the newspaper of record.
Yes, many of the Kibbutzs were started by idealistic socialistic organizations. But they weren't full of "peaceniks". A lot of the kibbutzs were puposely placed in border regions as a buffer against Arab intrusions. And, unlike many of the ultra religious Jews, kibbutzniks, male and female, do military service.
I spent 3 months on a Kibbutz close to Gaza in 1976. I was 19 at the time and, in one of the most foolhardy things I've done, I hithchiked into Gaza with a girl my age to buy some mint and raisins from the Arab market. I had done that in the Arab part of Jerusalem before without any problems and I assumed Gaza would be the same.
The ride I got into Gaza was from an Isreali civil servant working there. He told me straight up that what I was doing was stupid and that someone would invite me into their home, kill me and keep the girl. I thought he had a jaundiced view of things until I got to Gaza and noticed that the only non-residents were Israeli soldiers on the rooftops with guns. When someone threw some fruit at me I decided it was time to leave.
Never mind the preoccupation of the Israeli intelligencers and military with their anti-Netanyahu politics instead of defending Israel, peaceniks and other progressives will always jam their ideology into any factual scenario.
They got a taste of Palestinian peace, didn't they? And it's all Netanyahu's fault. /S
What kind of culture raises men to behead babies in their cribs?
You cannot coexist with people who do not wish to coexist with you
_______
Quite a few of those are Jewish who don't want to coexist with Netanyahu
And quite a few are Democrats who don't want to coexist with certain other Americans
Aggie said...
What happened to the Iron Dome? Why was it down?
reports are that it was hacked 1st by cyberwarriors (from Iran? Russia? China? USA? Freelancers?)
We are seeing that "modern war": Leopard IIs, Bradley's, Iron Dome, Smart fences, etc.. Are Not viable
Ukrainians have delegated modern western armor to mass transit roles BEHIND the battlefield.
Ukrainians are having to get by with MEN WITH RIFLES, artillery and drones.. And they're all out of artillery
The Israelis have found that: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
America has more private riffles than the rest of the world, combined... THANK GOD!
What happened to the Iron Dome?
War. It was overwhelmed in the first moments of the war. The number of incoming rockets exceeded its capacity for interception. That technique is but one of the low-tech and highly effective schemes the Iranians taught Hamas, along with drone swarms and paragliders.
Being murderously evil simply comes naturally to Palestinians and their supporters.
Oh my. Somebody forgot to read the Hamas charter. You know, the part where they promise to annihilate Israel and her Jews.
The Palestinians who voted them into power know about that.
There is a meme for this entire story: Woman Surprised Leopards Ate Her Face After She Voted For "Leopards Eating People's Faces" Party.
Robert Mitchum starred in a movie called The Ambassador in 1984 in which PLA terrorists attacked an Israeli Jewish/Muslim peace concert. That is almost 40 years ago, and fiction then has become game plan now.
And then, like a thunderclap from above, God spoke:
"There. You asked for a demo of why I gifted America with the 2nd Amendment. You got it."
Now you know why it is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war.
There can be no peace with people who do not pursue peace. Therefore assume the gun is always loaded and aimed at your head.
Buckwheathikes said...
"Gun ownership and training in Israel should be MANDATORY. 'An AR15 in Every Pot'."
NO!!!
The AR-15 is a terrific rifle; there's lots of reasons there are so many of them out there. But if "our side" is going up against people with military rifles, "we" should have military rifles, too.
The best choice would be an M16A2. It has an advantage of being the standard issue battle rifle of the IDF, so familiarity for a populace that has mandatory military service would be a plus.
If there is a push to "Buy Israeli", there is the Galil Ace, which has some use by the IDF as well. It is the latest, improved rifle built on the AK, but chambered for NATO rounds including the 5.56. Being an AK, I suspect it could still be reliably fired after a long period in storage and the recommended maintenance ignored.
I would seriously look at a smaller lighter carbine, like the M4, which is also standard issue in the IDF as well. There is a carbine version of a Galil, but it does not seem to be common.
Irving Kristol, of blessed memory, might say that a neo-Likudnik is a leftwing kibbutznik brutalized by Hamas.
The NY Times is stuck in the spin cycle. They need to call a repairman.
This story is a trap.
It is designed to make one focus upon the victims for their political stances, and draw connections between their politics and their victimhood.
Ignore it. It is unsurprising that, within four days, divisive elements would begin to surface these sorts of political turds.
Ignore them. The cause of their deaths are the Hamas terrorists, not the kibbutzim, not the military, not the government.
What the Israeli Left needs to realize (and pretty damn quick, too) is that Hamas doesn't give a sh*t about your politics, your nationality, or anything else. If you are a Jew, they want you dead, period. You can be an infant, an American, a Thai, a German, an elderly Holocaust survivor in a wheelchair (hey, cool, just like Leon Klinghoffer!). It doesn't matter. They want you dead, preferably gruesomely, and with some nice gang rape and torture thrown in for kicks.
I thought only conservatives engaged in conspiracy theories.
And i is all coming HERE folks... to the USA. Via open Southern Border.
Am I kidding??? No.. not at all!!!! Biden has let them in.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/thousands-special-interest-aliens-middle-east-countries-stopped-southern-border-2021-data
The national socialists in Russia were also surprised. Unqualified monotonic change. Forward!
Right, get your democrat machine going and go after the one person who DIDN'T rape, kill and behead people.
Sceptical Voter,
You're thinking of the previous generation of Swiss army rifle. The current issue rifle is indeed chambered in 5.56 NATO, though of a different design than the AR using a piston instead of direct impingement if I read this correctly. This was deployed sometime around 1990.
Rocco,
Remember we are talking about self-defense here, not small unit shoot and move tactics. For one thing, nobody in civilian mode is going to be humping around enough rounds to use select fire effectively. For another, there is keeping and training...
"...has fueled resentment of the Netenyahu government." OK, so the Israeli goverrnment clearly failed on the security front. But, perhaps is anyone else also maybe deserve some resentment here? Such as the terrorists who didn't care what the peace-loving festival goers believed, because they were you know, probably Jewish?
We need to stop the cycle of violence.
I think that is exactly what Netanyahu had in mind when he said there would be a change that would reverberate down generations. Not everyone is going to agree with his methods though.
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