Writes Ross Douthat, in "When ‘Decolonization’ Isn’t Just Academic Rhetoric" (NYT).
"For some participants in progressive politics, apparently, the fact that the dead Israelis — the civilians, the families, the children — could be depicted as occupying somebody else’s land was enough to make their killings laudable, or at least defensible, or at least enough to complicate any simple condemnation of the men who butchered them. And that realization will make it harder to listen to land acknowledgments hereafter without hearing an undercurrent of dark self-abnegation — distinct from moral preening insofar as it speaks, we now know, to people who might actually take the self-condemnation seriously and who might see the land acknowledgers as baring their own flesh before the knife."That made me think of the line — posted on X while the massacre was going on — "What did y’all think decolonization meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers."
७९ टिप्पण्या:
Questions for the lawyers here. Is it constitutional for a children's museum to give free admission to members of federally recognized Indian tribes while all other races (Black, White, Brown and Yellow) pay the full price?
The admission price for adults is $25.00.
Not a trick question!
"The new policy is a “continuing acknowledgement that the land on which the Luminarium sits was first occupied and cared for by Indigenous peoples,” said a media statement."
Just east of Omaha's Old Market and about six blocks south of where Creighton plays basketball.
Douthat - whatever, but that second link is pretty powerful. Some of you equivocators might want to check it out.
Cook? RC?
You don't need all this analysis. Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The very WORST people you can ever meet go to Harvard University. Did none of you watch Good Will Hunting. They're the most annoyingly arrogant people on the planet and about the first thing you want to do when you meet one of them is punch them in the throat so they'll shut the fk up.
And this is arrogance born of NOTHING but daddy's money.
The little Nazi's that go to Harvard are having their "progressive" masks ripped off. And it's about time. They want a return to National Socialism because they'll be the ones sitting on the porch firing their rifles down at you people if you're not working hard enough.
Ace said it best (https://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=406578):
"Leftwing Hamas-supporters in America are telling us that the mass slaughter of children and rape of women is just "what decolonization looks like."
Meanwhile, every leftwinger in America, from antifa transexual street-thugs to university professors, have been calling for "decolonization" in the United States. They've been calling for "decolonization" of all whites, straights, Jews, Christians, normies -- anyone except the core privileged groups of the left.
So they're calling for our murder and rape. After all, this is what decolonization looks like..."
The left hates you. They want you dead and your children dead and if they can't get that they want them disenfranchised. They want you disarmed and they want your money for their new age utopian vision.
Since most of them are queer as fuck I hope their body armor is fashionable. They're gonna need it.
Colonization implies barbarians to me.
There's Wm. Empson on "native" though:
A notorious case of this growth of Implications in a word is provided by "native," in itself able to arouse sturdy patriotism, which came to be felt as insulting when applied to the natives of (say) India. The empire-builder's use of the word was naturally limited to the persons native where he worked, and acquired stock Emotions (contempt sometimes touched with fear) and Implications such as "inherently subjected", which could easily become "racially inferior". So far the word merely does what the speakers want; their opinion of the natives in view colours the word and may then be asserted as a piece of common knowledge. The equation is "such people are - inherently subjected", or whatever less stark view the speaker might entertain. The only puzzle is to decide whether there was any memory of history at work. The N.E.D. gives the oldest meaning of the word as "one born in bondage; a born thrall"; the first example is no earlier than 1450, but cognate to an earlier technical term "neif" for persons attached to the soil. A disparaging use for the local residents of an English country town is quoted from 1800, whereas the use for the natives of countries considered savage is found in the late seventeenth century. A tendency to rude suggestions might well go on clinging to the word, as a rival to the suggestions of local patriotism ("that we are native where we walk"); so that the empire-builders are not putting any strain on it. On the other hand the seriously rude use of the word does not seem to appear till the historical meaning had been quite forgotten. In any case the meaning presumed from the Latin derivation, "one of the original or usual inhabitants of a country, as distinguished from strangers or foreigners", dated 1603, was taken through all this development as "what the word really meant". There was no idea that two meanings of the word were in play, even when the Implications became so strong as to seem actually part of the word's meaning. Nor did the change of feeling in the word involve any change of the referent in view, which continued to be the natives of India (or wherever it might be). There was no puzzle about the referent until the empire-builder's dialect began to affect the talkers at home, and then the meaning of the word had to change...
The Structure of Complex Words p.49-50
what it was like before being cancelled was the first step in analysis.
Pray they don't get so guilt stricken that they DO start giving up the land ... because then it'll never stop.
Makes me glad my house is in Polo Club Estates and not Chickasaw Gardens. (Although polo mallets can be lethal.)
R D Kaplan has written about the way that rapid urbanization in recently traditional societies encourages the growth of identity radicalism among young men whose sense of community and belonging comes from fanatical adherence to a great cause--because they've got bupkis otherwise.
In Gaza and elsewhere the cause is both national/ethnic and religious, with injuries within memory and a clear narrative, and their example is noticed and admired in other places.
I far as I can tell, contemporary leftism is an anti-human death cult.
My company opens all meetings with a land acknowledgment. Laziness is the only thing keeping me from offering to give one—I’d want to do a full history lesson including not just the tribes we took it from, but who they massacred to get it in the first place. Especially if it happened after we arrived and there are accounts of the violence. And who those people drove off, and on back as far as the history books can trace it.
Performative—yes. It’s a kind of self-flagellation that takes the place of any meaningful action. Not only are we not giving the land back, we’re not going to do much of anything else either. But we’ll feel better because we named the people who sat here before us.
The land doesn’t care; it was here before the American Indians; it will e here after the descendants of the European settlers have intermarried and blended in with the newer immigrants. Stewardship is all there is.
I gather this approved decolonization is not playing well in Peoria.
Attacking somebody for being a "colonizer" is about as dumb as celebrating somebody for being "indigenous." Everybody is a colonizer, as homo sapiens originated in Africa and spread across the globe. Whether a group can be considered to be occupying some other group's land depends entirely on when you start counting. It seems to me that Muslims are the world's most active colonizers over the past millennium. At present, they are actively colonizing Europe and North America, among other places.
Similarly, everbody is indigenous to some place. I am indigenous to New York City. On the other hand, a Guatemalan of Maya descent currently staying at the Roosevelt Hotel is definitely not indigenous to New York City.
The Israelis are not colonizers. Judaism began in the area, and there has been a continuous Jewish presence for nearly 3,000 years. In fact, it is the Muslim Arabs who are the colonizers, and began their efforts nearly 1,500 years ago.
I very much doubt they were the original inhabitants of the land. They were the inhabitants when the English showed up 400 years ago but humans were in the area for about 10,000 years before that. Modern genomics has shown that most areas do not have one founder population that stays but have waves of migration and dispossession, and not uncommonly genocide of the male half of the population.
"For some participants in progressive politics, apparently, the fact that the dead Israelis — the civilians, the families, the children — could be depicted as occupying somebody else’s land was enough to make their killings laudable, or at least defensible, or at least enough to complicate any simple condemnation of the men who butchered them."
Since I'm not a participant in progressive politics, he's not talking about me but, even looking at the people he is talking about, this assessment seems simple minded: Is it truly fair and just - in America - to tell people who do not feel shock, and find all of this so understandable it's almost boring, that they have to feel the same level of emotion as the outraged? Or that we all have to fall in line and condemn Hamas and condemn Hamas and condemn Hamas and condemn Hamas and condemn Hamas and no one can ever talk about Israel's historic roll in any of this without condemnation, persecution, or being portrayed as evil people? I just learned today that Netanyahu was once a strategic supporter of Hamas - he gave them money - hoping that their rise would split Palestinian political support. (Kind of like when we supported the Taliban to fight Russia.) Does that "complicate" things it at all? Honest people have had huge disagreements over this conflict since Day One, but all of a sudden that's not reality? As I've stated before, I'm American, and my job is to think about American values. And I worry about America during the fog of war, because y'all get very very rigid, and the very first thing you seem to want to ditch is anyone feeling secure that freedom of speech is actually respected and not under threat or duress. Finally, I will remind you I'm an atheist, and Ross and all the other believers out there, in whatever it is they believe in, as far as I'm concerned, are the ones making these problems: this is a religious war. And there's no reason to demand that I'm going to be in favor of messianic violence, or decide to choose a side. Christopher Hitchens reminded us: there are bad men in the world, and they do bad things, but - for good people to do bad things - you must have religion.
Could somebody please explain to me how that land belongs to the Palestinians? To my knowledge, there's never been a Palestinian state. The Jews have been there for millennia. So how does the land belong to the Palestinians? There must be an historical argument. What is it?
Of course it's a revolutionary ideology and of course it requires sacrifice. Leftism started with mass murder: remember the Vendee. It continued in the Holomodor, the Great Leap Forward, and the Killing Fields. Baader-Meinhof and the Red Brigades and the Black Panthers and the Shining Path didn't reach the same thrilling depths, but not for lack of trying. It's just that, in the West, the left has not had enough power to start killling in earnest. But the logic and the desire remain the same. As the sign of a one lefty demonstrator said, decolonization is not a metaphor.
It’s too bad that I can’t read this sort of article for a “single issue” price for the NYT. Instead, I must either seek out a pirated copy of the piece or pay for a subscription which I refuse to do because I am ideologically opposed to financially supporting the current NYT. Surely there must be a go-between?
A word of solace to the "decolonizers", just think of the current and shortly coming events in the Middle East as the decolonization of Muslim interlopers on land that was Jewish a thousand years before Mohammad was born.
The Wokies are most likely just tools. The ones in Dane County won't willingly sign the deeds of their homes over to the Ho-Chunk Nation...but the New Regime might force them to do so.
I wonder how the wokerati in Omaha would feel if the Potawatomi started lobbing RPGs at cars on the interstate or put suicide bombers on city buses.
“we're in a world that's convinced that
the truth must be simple and all of
these simple truths don't survive
the collider that is modern social media”
Eric Weinstein.
I don’t know who’s having a “debate”.
Did I missed the debate?
Whatever this was It didn’t look like a “debate” to me.
Agree - second link is very good.
"Which means the next time some academic or media personality on cable blithely informs us that Palestine must be liberated “from the river to the sea”—that means from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean, i.e., the whole of the Jewish state—we should ask them whether they are okay with all the girls who will be raped, all the old people and toddlers who will be mowed down or strung up. We should ask if they believe that as a “settler-colonialist” entity, the United States awaits a similar fate."
Original Mike said...
"Could somebody please explain to me how that land belongs to the Palestinians? To my knowledge, there's never been a Palestinian state. The Jews have been there for millennia. So how does the land belong to the Palestinians? There must be an historical argument. What is it?"
Here's one of the most well-spoken people I've found so far. There are others, of all stripes (see my blog) but for hearing the Palesinian view, this guy is one of the best.
Anybody read the Old Testament? Lots of de-colonizing. Israelites thumped other tribes and got thumped in return. The losers were were either enslaved and removed from their traditional lands or they were exterminated. Hey, that's just how it was three thousand years ago. Everybody knew the rules of the game. Winners and losers. The basic nature of humanity hasn't changed any. Woke people think that they're on the cusp of a revolution in human nature and behavior. Yay the irresistible progress of civilization! Eloi meet Morlock.
Dave B:
Answer to your question. The federal constitution’s equal protection guarantees apply only to governments (state and federal) and prohibit discrimination on the usual grounds only by governmental entities. Discrimination by nongovernmental entities are typically governed by specific statutes — e.g., employment discrimination by Title 7, etc. Nongovernmental entities receiving federal funds are generally prohibited from discriminating by the statutes that provide the funding— e.g., in the Harvard affirmative action case it was Title VI. The states also have similar constitutional and statutory provisions prohibiting discrimination on the usual grounds, as do some cities. Here in NYC where I live, the City anti discrimination laws are even more expansive than the federal and state counterparts. So, your museum may well have a problem with what it’s doing. Universities and businesses that set up programs, scholarships or internships open only to some races have been sued on these grounds and most abandon the discrimination once it becomes an issue.
Hope that helps.
"Christopher Hitchens reminded us: there are bad men in the world, and they do bad things, but - for good people to do bad things - you must have religion."
That is an example of the "No True Scotsman" argument. If some group does bad things and did not have religion then they were just bad people. If they had religion then they were good people that did bad things. Depending on the conclusion of having religion or not, you redefine the people post hoc.
"the 'land acknowledgment' phenomenon has always loomed as the strongest exhibit for the it’s-all-just-performance case"
I disagree. His Harvard example is fine, but climate alarm provides more and better examples of woke performancism.
the Harvard Art Museums said...
" [Our] priceless collections attached to the country’s richest university, want you to know that they are 'located on the traditional and ancestral land of the Massachusett, the original inhabitants of what is now known as Boston and Cambridge.' Also, they 'pay respect to the people of the Massachusett Tribe, past and present.'"
Before I post my comment, I just want to acknowledge that I am posting this from the traditional and ancestral land of the Castoroides, Mammut, and Mammuthus - the original inhabitants of this land for thousands of years before you damned dirty hairless apes showed up and genocided the Giant Beaver, Mastodon, and Mammoth to extinction.
The mental landscape looks like the aftermath of bar room fight. Mental furniture is smashed and the pieces lie strewn about.
The brighter spirits on the left like Maher and Matt Taibbi are trying to work out what can be saved, considering how the left has embraced antisemitism in recent years. The American Jews are trying to work out their connection to Israel and their heritage and US politics. In other countries, some like the BBC hosts and reporters are still trying to work in the old arguments even in their smashed condition. Thet are still trying to persuade us all that no one can ask Hamas to surrender to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza; that no one can say that Hamas is using the Gazans as human shields; that Hamas has no agency. Meanwhile, others are quickly denying their connection and beliefs - "Aren't you one them? Surely you are. You're very way of talking shows you blame the Jews." "No, no, not me, I tell you I never supported Hamas. The Jews are making you say that." Far off a rooster crows. (All over America roosters are crowing.)
Being on the right, I always supported Israel and I never made the mistake of thinking that religion didn't matter and that everyone could be bought. But I absolutely did not believe that Hamas wanted to do what it said it wanted to do: to kill and burn and degrade members of a group which Hamas regards as inferior. There's broken furniture in my mind, too.
It's kind of funny how the people that are chanting on 'decolonization' are focused entirely on removing people, but not the colonized infrastructure. We're going to be taking that down too - right? Removing it completely and restoring the land to it's native, stone-age nomadic state? Or... did y'all have plans for the colonized infrastructure, that involve preserving it for something else, some other use, some other..... authority?
Here in Canada, I used to wait respectfully until the land ack. was over, then say aloud “and, God save the Queen”
Now amended to God save the King..
I get a great reaction from those nearby…
Funny that something that was commonly heard until recently is now somehow scandalous
@chicklit
Go to http://archive.today/
Put the url for the web page with the article that is paywalled into the first box.
Click save.
Magic.
Someone already thoughtfully archived this article. The url is:
https://archive.ph/ByP1E
Only a leftist could at the same time assert that Native Americans have some claim to U.S.land but Jews have no right to Israel.
I don't know what 'decolonization' is supposed to mean or what it would really look lik, but I know that Gaza in ruins is what 'Never Again' looks like.
I think of the Philip K. Dick short story where the aliens sell a game to the humans in which the point is to lose.
Original Mike said...
"Could somebody please explain to me how that land belongs to the Palestinians? To my knowledge, there's never been a Palestinian state. The Jews have been there for millennia. So how does the land belong to the Palestinians? There must be an historical argument. What is it?"
Hey Mike, my bad, but I just re-watched that video and realized they cut it off before he got to the history, and I can't find the next segment. Sorry. The long and short of it is, most Jews were chased out of that land 3000 years ago by the Romans. Yes, Jews were there, but their population was an extreme minority. After World War II they came back from Europe, traumatized, in droves, but there had been people living there for thousands of years. Those people, and the British protectorate, were working on turning it into a state they called Palestine. But the Jews, full of post World War II bravado (and in search of their manhood) killed the Palestinians until they were forced to leave. The Israelis have since trapped them in an open air prison called Gaza that the Israelis partition and control by force. That's the argument.
I followed that second link to Savodnik’s article. I agree that it’s powerful:
All this is a good reminder that when people say something, they often* mean it, and we should believe them, or at least take them seriously. Fancy-sounding academic jargon is not a curious intellectual exercise. Words make worlds.
And
Real decolonization is a physical process. It is about removing bodies from a place.
I also read that Germans, reverting to form, are vandalizing residences in Berlin owned by Jews, by painting the Star of David in prominent positions. Welcome back to Kristallnacht, baby! In 85 years did it ever go away?
________
* And safest to treat “often” as “always.”
Sully had professor Martha Nussbaum to talk about her new book on animal rights. Sully gives the first 40 minutes of their talk for free. I found the philosophy of the meaning of sentience interesting.
https://open.substack.com/pub/andrewsullivan/p/martha-nussbaum-on-justice-for-animals?r=ncvsu&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
YouTube: Peter Weller on Buckaroo Banzai
They don’t make’m like that anymore.
So, ross doughnut pipes up and tries to denounce wokeness by coupling it to Hamas. See, Liberals/leftist, says Ross, this is what you get when you engage in anti-colonialist rhetoric Better rethink your position.
IOW, we should stop slandering and attacking the white Americans who settled and built the USA because it might be bad for Israel. That's Ross Doughnut's vague, weak Tea "Conservativism" in a nutshell. He can't wave the American flag, but he can wave the Israeli one.
In fact, Ross cant even use the words "Leftwing" or "anti-white". That'd be too aggressive for himm - even though that's the truth. Progressive is leftism and wokeness is antiwhite leftistm. But like David French or Rod Dreher, Ross really isn't on the Right, he's just playing acting. He's been the assigned the role. Instead of getting the sports desk, or the Pentagon beat, Journalist Ross got the "Controlled opposition" column.
for good people to do bad things - you must have religion.
I don't see that this follows. Was Lenin not aspiring to something good? Yet he was not religious, I gather, and at least his legacy was a lot of bad things. Plus, it's childishly easy for a New Atheist to convince herself that her moral judgment is correct, whether or not it is.
Basically people are good at convincing themselves that they're acting morally.
This happened before the first Englishman set foot in New England. Cromwell conquered Ireland. After the conquest, he moved the Irish off the arable land. The native population then suffered a famine that killed about thirty percent of the population. The Irish became tenant farmers in their native land. There were subsequent famines and malnutrition was endemic for centuries. The Irish became a nation of emigrants.
....Everybody gets fucked over. The only time they don't get fucked over is when they're fucking over someone else. I guess Cromwell regarded himself as a member of a persecuted religious minority, which, at one time, he was. He probably thought that killing Catholics was a shrewd way of forestalling another St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre.....I don't know if there's any fair way of straightening out all the injustices of history. No sense crying over spilt milk. Still we should do what we can to set things straight. I am therefore asking everyone here in the Althouse community of Anglo-Saxon descent to send me a small hororarium, say one hundred dollars the first year, as reparations for the troubles they have visited upon my people. It won't be just recompense, but it will be a start.
@chickelit
I read these links through archive.is. Maybe that's pirated?
What I can't do is read the NYT reader comments, which I would love to see. It used to be possible by appending #commentsContainer to the url of the article -- but no longer. Any suggestions from the althouse commentariat?
I refer to Sebastian's comment at 8:17 pm.....I never heard of the Vendee until, upon retirement, I started reading a lot of history. The Vendee was a backward region of France. The peasants there thought they needed the services of Vatican approved priests to enter the kingdom of heaven and that the King was anointed by God to rule them. They didn't want to be ruled by the enlightened French revolutionaries, and they rebelled. Their rebellion was put down and put down in such a way that approached genocide in its ferocity. Everyone has heard the sad stories of Marie Antoinette and Robespierre, but I doubt if anyone here can name a single person who died in the various Vendee uprisings. They were bit players in the French Revolution.....Ditto the Russian Revolution. There were peasants in Russia who felt they needed the consolations of religion and felt that the Czar's rule was the will of God. Fuck them. Such ignorant superstitious cretins don't deserve to live. During the collectivization process some four to eight million of them starved to death and another sixty to seventy million lived their lives just at the edge of starvation. Everyone here knows the sad story of the Czar and his family and also of Stalin's purges of the old Bolsheviks who had done so much to bring about the revolution. But can anyone here name a single peasant who starved to death....Some victims are more victims than others. It seems that rural, backward peasants such as the Irish, the people of Vendee, the small farmers of Ukraine don't deserve full victim status. That status is reserved for aristocrats and their leftist opponents.
Crack seems to be struggling (and reading about) all this. Well and good. Yes, Crack, Netanyahu gave Hamas money. Every Israeli leader has tried all sorts of ways to normalize interactions with Hamas, the P.A., the PLO, etc. There has been no reciprocity. The pogrom makes it clear there never will be with Hamas. So now, hopefully, they will be eliminated. It is nice you are struggling to understand it all. I suggest you consider this from Dylan's magnificent Neighborhood Bully, since we have just witnessed proof of it beyond imagining.
Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully.
Here in Connecticut (cue Bill Maher joke), those few who were clever or fortunate enough to win the genetic lottery of descending from the favored tribal clans got to set up casinos.
A privilege not afforded anyone not descended from the favored tribes.
They have done quite well for themselves and for their families. (Also, although I am not a gambling or casino afficianado, by all accounts they have done a marvellous job with the opportunity).
I don't suppose that would work in Gaza.
Original Mike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
Population in thousands
Year Jews Christians Muslims Total
1533 5 6 145 156
1553 7 9 188 205
1690 2 11 219 232
1800 7 22 246 275
1890 43 57 432 532
1914 94 70 525 689
1922 84 71 589 752
1931 175 89 760 1,033
1947 630 143 1,181 1,970
We've never met but if we were to spend some time together I think you’d probably recognize me as someone who’s basically on the same team as you, politically. However, this article goes way too far for my tastes. By ‘translating’ the political shorthands used by people you disagree with in this way — that is, with no sympathy whatsoever for the idea that there might be legitimate points lurking somewhere amid the verbiage — you’re just further entrenching the divisions in the futile and destructive culture war that we all hate. There is nothing valuable about this exercise.
I’d have more respect for this if you gave the same level of critical scrutiny to the ‘political language’ of people whose positions you agree with. Or do you truly believe that there are no overused, meaningless political phrases emanating from our side of the culture war?
"It’s too bad that I can’t read this sort of article for a “single issue” price for the NYT."
But, you CAN read this sort of article, easily, for free. And it appears to be legal.
The webpage at archive.ph offers web-browser extensions that allow you to click on an icon that gets installed into your web browser, that will open a new tab and show you, free of charge, the article you opened and got paywall blocked from seeing.
So, click on a NYT link, you get paywalled, click on the archive icon, and a new tab opens to display the paywalled article. If someone else has done that before you get there (which is usually the case, with the NYT stuff), it's pretty much instantaneous; otherwise, it takes a minute or two to generate the archive copy.
I don't know why paywall sites, such as NYT, have not generated an effective countermeasure against this paywall killer app, but so far they have not.
So don't complain about paywalls, just jump over them with the archive.ph extension for the web browser you use.
boatbuilder,
It's funny you should mention casinos. I once observed that the Gaza strip could be a glorious vacation spot for all Europe and the Middle East. Set up a Gaza Strip Authority. Allow it to build casinos, bars, boardwalks with restaurants and shops, amusement parks, hell, even Gaza Strip Joints. Get the Jews to go in on the financing. Make out like bandits. Yes, it's tawdry, commercial materialism. So what has all the wailing about some Palestinian homeland and "identity" done for any of them so far? I was laughed at when I said this, but in the end I believe it will come to pass - sadly not for a very long time. But for now, if I may, I end with Dylan again:
Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you
Forget the dead you’ve left, they will not follow you
The vagabond who’s rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore
Strike another match, go start anew
And it’s all over now, Baby Blue
Richard Dolan.
There is a federal law that prohibits discrimination based on race for businesses that provide public accommodations. That includes places of amusement and entertainment. This law was the basis for the Heart of Atlanta Motel SCOTUS case.
The ACLU website is in accord and states that discounts based on race are not allowed.
Jamie said...
for good people to do bad things - you must have religion.
"I don't see that this follows. Was Lenin not aspiring to something good? Yet he was not religious, I gather, and at least his legacy was a lot of bad things. Plus, it's childishly easy for a New Atheist to convince herself that her moral judgment is correct, whether or not it is."
I don't know what you're talking about. Atheism makes no claim to morality - it's merely stating the fact there is no God. Atheists don't even have to "believe" it: We just look around, don't find God or miracles anywhere, and - understanding how people are - go about our lives.
Jon Burack said...
"Crack seems to be struggling (and reading about) all this. Well and good."
I don't see myself struggling, but I'm glad you approve. Thank you.
"Yes, Crack, Netanyahu gave Hamas money. Every Israeli leader has tried all sorts of ways to normalize interactions with Hamas, the P.A., the PLO, etc. There has been no reciprocity. The pogrom makes it clear there never will be with Hamas. So now, hopefully, they will be eliminated."
Interesting conclusion. Because they don't get along with Zionists, and never have gotten along with Zionists, they must be "eliminated" - not Zionism. Why them? They don't want to get along. They want the Zionists to leave. Zionism was not their idea, and they were living there when the Zionists came up with it. The ability of moral people to treat the Palestinians as though they're not people is just remarkable.
Thank you Crack and Mrsmyth.
Friendly repeat of the thread winner:
Quaestor said...
"A word of solace to the "decolonizers", just think of the current and shortly coming events in the Middle East as the decolonization of Muslim interlopers on land that was Jewish a thousand years before Mohammad was born."
@@@@@ 10/14/23, 8:19 PM
William's posts = awesome.
Crack said:
" But the Jews, full of post World War II bravado (and in search of their manhood) killed the Palestinians until they were forced to leave. "
That is a lie.
Mrsmyth's post at 736am is enlightening.
The numbers of Jews and Christians really start to take off after 1800 and Bonaparte's adventure in Egypt and the Holy Lands had helped spark interest in that area and its past.
IIRC it was during that time that Christian pilgrimage also exploded--including Orthodox, who the Tsars claimed the right to protect, and France conquered most of North Africa and eventually Lebanon as Turkey became the Sick Man.
The drop in Jewish numbers from 1914 to 1922 is interesting, and the bump in Christians between 1931 and 1947 is too.
William writes, "This happened before the first Englishman set foot in New England. Cromwell conquered Ireland."
Perhaps William should read more widely in the subjects of history. Just for starters, let's clarify some dates. On 10 April 1606, James II chartered the Virginia Company, a trading corporation empowered by the Crown to found colonial settlements in the New World, specifically the coast of North America from what is now the Carolinas to what is now Maine. The Virginia Company was composed of two subsidiary companies informally known as the London Company, which was authorized to contract with colonists in London and the Home Counties and the Plymouth Company authorized to make contracts in the city of Plymouth. Both subsidiaries referred to that thousand-mile strip of North America as "New England", following the precedent set by Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584. Consequently, one could rightly claim that the first Englishman set foot in New England in 1584, or 1607, or 1620, well before Oliver Cromwell was anything but a gentleman farmer in Cambridgeshire
Oliver Cromwell's involvement in Ireland dates to 1649 and the Second Seige of Drogheda. We should begin with Drogheda because it is one of the oldest towns in Ireland, founded in 1194 by...wait for it... Normans! Not Irish. Before it was a town it was a castle inhabited by Hugh de Lacy, Lord of Meath since 1171, and a garrison of about a hundred Norman knights and men-at-arms. No Irish. During the reign of the Tudors, it became the de facto capital of the English Pale. The expropriation of the choicest land in Ireland began long before Cromwell. From the 12th century on, if an Erse-speaking Celt wasn't a serf belonging to an Anglo-Normam lord he probably lived in the rock-bound lands of the west. When the Reformation overtook England the non-conforming Anglo-Normans were themselves expropriated and pushed westward to be replaced by Protestant English gentlemen such as the same Sir Walter Raleigh mentioned above who probably didn't introduce the potato to Ireland.
Crack said:
" But the Jews, full of post World War II bravado (and in search of their manhood) killed the Palestinians until they were forced to leave. "
I stand w Isreal. Leftists, Mullahs, Hamas-Palistinian terrorists can suck it: "That is a lie."
Not just a lie, but a series of lies...standing on a foundation of other multiple lies and egregious ignorance blinded by intractable racism.
And those lies and that ignorance compounded by that racism is impenetrable.
Come on, Crack, you have to see this is not the issue:
"They want the Zionists to leave. Zionism was not their idea, and they were living there when the Zionists came up with it. The ability of moral people to treat the Palestinians as though they're not people is just remarkable."
Hamas did not simply "want the Zionists to leave." The Israeli Jews all DID leave, in 2005. Hamas wants to eliminate all the Jews, Zionist or not. It is they, not the Israelis, who treat others "as though they're not people." Go watch this famous exchange between David Horowitz and a Hamas supporter, back in 2010. Listen all the way to the end, to Horowitz's last question. "For or Against?" and She answers "FOR."
https://twitter.com/Kevin__McMahon/status/1711833732036862198
There are conquests and there are conquests. Sometimes the conqueror gets absorbed and other times he becomes a solid, insoluble presence and the resentment lingers. Cromwell didn't conquer the Irish. He conquered the Catholics. There was an animus there that didn't exist in previous conquests....The Mongols conquered Persia and Mesopotamia. This happened two centuries AFTER the Christian Crusades. The Mongols conquered the Abbasid Empire. They besieged Baghdad and after it fell, they killed everyone there. There were very good at killing. They killed a million inhabitants which is very impressive considering the methods available then. The Abbasid Empire is said by many to be the height of Muslim civilization. It was many years before the Abbas had another hit record after the Mongols hit town. On the plus side, when the Mongols arrived at the gates of Damascus, the good citizens there saw no religious conflict in paying tributes to such non-believers. The Mongols for their part were tolerant of all religions so, except for those million that got killed, it was all good. The Muslims speak about the Crusades and Israeli occupation, but so far as the Mongols go, it's let bygones be bygones....Not all victims are equally sympathized with. Not all conquerors are equally resented.
"I don't know why paywall sites, such as NYT, have not generated an effective countermeasure against this paywall killer"
Plenty of paywalled sites (e.g. WSJ) do, in fact, have effective countermeasures.
So my conclusion is that sites who don't (like the NYT) are that way because they don't actually want to block the archivers.
Yes, land acknowledgements are pure, stupid, useless virtue signaling. Unless you're going to give it back or at least pay rent, just STFU.
I stand w Isreal. Leftists, Mullahs, Hamas-Palistinian terrorists can suck it said...
Crack said:
" But the Jews, full of post World War II bravado (and in search of their manhood) killed the Palestinians until they were forced to leave. "
That is a lie.
No, it's not. It's just what people don't wanna talk about: Jews had been put in ovens in Europe and they were humbled, but they didn't want to be humbled anymore, and they wanted to show the world that no one could push them around. I've already given you that quote from the Jewish leaders, saying that place isn't big enough for everybody, so somebody's got to go - it just had to be someone other than the Zionists. And, above, I gave you a link to the story of Edward Said, who was born and raised there, but his family was chased away. Watch it and then tell me A) a crime wasn't committed against him, and B) why that poor man and his people have to suffer because someone wants to create Zion.
Jon Burack said...
Hamas did not simply "want the Zionists to leave."
No, the Palestinians did. That's who this is all about. Focusing on Hamas is merely a way to twist the story.
You guys wanna act like there's some big mystery going on here, when it's really simple:
People coming back after thousands of years, and saying "this is our land" when someone's already living there, is the recipe for a fight - right from the start - a fight started by the Zionists.
From Douthat's piece:
"And when violence has broken through this therapeutic carapace, as it did in the summer of 2020, there have been ready-made excuses: merely crimes against property, merely looting, the voice of the unheard, not an organized strategy of violence. (It also helped that Kenosha burned but Yale and Columbia did not.)"
The point about Yale and Columbia is an interesting one, not least because of how vulnerable those institutions would be to organized violence. Say what you will about Yale, but its libraries and museums are among our civilization's treasures, and they are neither well defended nor easily defendable against mobs with violent intent.
Pity the poor Neanderthals! Done in by modern humans.
Colonialism had its good as well as bad sides, but that’s all irrelevant to the territorial disputes between the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews. The Jews aren’t going anywhere, they have no place else to go, so either the Palestinian Arabs learn how to live with the Jewish state, or they can keep suffering and dying. The Western “decolonization” advocates are in fact advocates for continued suffering and dying of the Palestinian Arabs. I suppose their continued suffering and dying makes the Jew-haters feel more virtuous and important.
Crack, your entries keep making this point over and over, and it is plainly and simply wrong. You say "People coming back after thousands of years, and saying "this is our land" when someone's already living there, is the recipe for a fight - right from the start - a fight started by the Zionists."
1. The Jews did not come back after thousands of years. They returned to a homeland that substantial numbers of others of them never left. LONG before the modern Zionist movement got under way, in 1800, the Muslim, Christian and Jewish population in Jerusalem was estimated to be 4,000 Muslims, 2,750 Christians and 2,000 Jews. Zionist Jews returned to a land that Jews had never left.
2. The area that makes up Israel and the West Bank was sparsely populated in the 1800s and early 1900s. (And it was a mixed population of Bedouin Arabs, people from Egypt, the Balkans and many other places.) A LOT of the land was useless scrub, marsh, etc. The Zionists did not tell those already living there "this is our land," as you say. They for the most part purchased the land. Once they began developing it, MORE Arabs moved in (not out) as well to take advantage of work increasingly available there. Moreover, the Jews did not "colonize" the land, which already was a colony of the Ottoman Empire.
3. Which raises another point about a mistake you have madd elsewhere when you say Zionists came to Palestine due to the suffering of the Holocaust. The Zionist movement got under way in the late 1800s. By the 1930s, there was a vibrant Jewish community already in Palestine. The British were then the colonizers, and they were already trying to work out a deal to split the land between the Jews and the Arabs. The Peel Commission plan of 1937, for example, already offered the Jews a tiny sliver of a state, years BEFORE the Holocaust. The Arabs rejected it, as they have every land deal they have been offered ever since.
I really wish you'd get these facts straight. There is absolutely nothing controversial about any of them.
Just as a recommendation to Crack after my most recent comment on Israeli history, I recommend these books:
On Israel's founding and the contexts for it
Benny Morris, "1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War." (A liberal take on the founding of the state)
Efraim Karsh, "Palestine Betrayed" (a conservative take on the founding of the state)
Jeffrey Herf, "Israel's Moment," which is on the international support and opposition to the founding of the state of Israel. It will surprise you as to who was who in that respect.
I also recommend Herf's "Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World." Herf was an old SDS leader I knew in Madison in the late 1960s. He caught on to the New Left's nihilism before I did, but he set me on that same path somewhat, even though he doesn't know that. He's still a liberal in many ways, but a damn hardnosed one on all this. This recent article of his is very much worth reading now.
https://quillette.com/2023/10/10/the-ideology-of-mass-murder/?ref=quillette-weekly-newsletter
Woke (e.g. DEI) -- and morally broke -- is a dogmatic philosophy of the Pro-Choice ethical religion.
The movie, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, contains this scene wherein then COL Miles Nelson calls out Sitting Bull’s claim to the primacy of the occupation of the Black Hills.
Every inhabited square inch of the earth was taken by conquest. There is no right or wrong, only power.
https://youtu.be/iVqQosyOpg4?si=KnT6oB8Peugac_JF
Thanks for your 8:10pm post, Jon.
Hello. My name is Thom Kirby. This is my brother gahries account, and it appears this post was close to the last thing he read/saw before he passed away Sunday morning sometime after 130am. I am not sure how much you interacted with him but I know he always read this blog. I can be reached at tfkirby@gmail.com. He was a teacher and they will be creating a scholarship in his name at AB miller high school in fontana ca. I do not knwo this community and his part in it but if people wish they can email me their thoughts on my brother.
He would want us all to get on with living our best lives.
R.I.P. Gahrie. My prayers go out to your family.
R.I.P. Gahrie. My prayers go out to your family.
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