[Christian Kandler, a professor at the University of Bremen, studies] behavioral genetics, and... presents findings that genetic factors account for 39 percent of what he calls “externalized religiousness,” which is going to services and performing daily religious practices. That’s compared to 28 percent for “internalized religiousness,” which is the “extent of religious beliefs, values and daily guidance.”...
That one’s level of religiosity is more about nurture than nature makes intuitive sense to me. I was raised by two secular, ethnically Jewish parents, in a relatively irreligious suburb, and I’m part of a generation that drove the rise of religious “nones.”
It would have been somewhat unusual for someone like me to regularly participate in traditional worship as an adult.... My lack of desire to join other groups might be because of my bad personality or my strong sense of self — it depends on how you look at it....
Let some other psychologist study whether "bad personality" and "strong sense of self" are 2 sides of the same coin.
Did Grose decide she has a bad personality? I re-scan the column. She talks about having a "somewhat introverted personality" and she refers to the "big 5 personality traits" — neuroticism, extroversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and openness — which might vaguely insinuate that introversion is "bad." I guess if you join groups and you're introverted, it might cause you to feel bad about your introversion, so if your "strong sense of self" is that you are introverted, you might avoid groups. But that doesn't mean you have a bad personality, only that extroverts run things and structure the group dynamic, and it's not a comfortable fit for you.
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That reminds me, i need to get ready for church.
Thanks.
God forbid people get together in real life to socialize...they might be "joiners"! Do they really really really believe everything in the Bible hmmm?
Yeah I was raised a "none" too and I don't recommend it. Just wanted to be a Girl Scout, and my parent called me a joiner.
At least, when I read about alienation and "anomie" I knew exactly what it was.
The Big Five huh? Seems like an incomplete list. Or is every negative disorder a type of neuroticism? I’m mildly curious about this now.
Liberalism, progressivism, conservatives, Pro-Choice, SS BLM, Antifa, feminism, diversity, etc.
I get the feeling that the social "sciences" are becoming gauzy or, perhaps, are being now seen as gauzy. They're vague, a bit misty. It starts with the science: "genetic factors account for 39 percent..." which means that other factors account for the majority of an trait - and what are those other factors? But the readers, the customers, so to speak, Have changed also. They seem to have universally (100%) become a defiant, questioning group, ruminating on the "facts," re-interpreting them rather than regarding them as principles. "My lack of desire to join other groups might be" ..."; It would have been somewhat unusual for someone like me..."; "that doesn't mean you have a bad personality, only that extroverts run things and structure the group dynamics."
That's good because people dominant in the field of behavior genetics (which came right out of eugenics) are still working to show that the main principles of "scientific racism" are true. They still want to show that both IQ and crime are genetically based which implies a group-based risk. They speak about polygenic risk scores which is a genetic version of social credit. So the less people believe in them the better off we all are.
However, When people dropped religion, they took up with science, especially the social sciences, as a replacement on how to organize morality and society. Now if people are going to start saying "Social sciences I believe in? None", what will they use a replacement? Conformity? Anarchism? Burning Man?
I guess I would have to read Kandler’s paper, but the writer should explain if the 39% genetic external religiousness is independent of the 28% internal expression ( are the same genes coding for both internal and external.) Is the sum of external and internal religious expression really 67% genetic? I expect that internal and external expression overlap genetically and this is not made clear by the writer for some reason.
The greatest hidden flaw in statistics is lack of independence in data.
Could someone do an analysis and figure out how many of these personal stories in the NYT's involve Jews? Its seems like most of them. Nothing wrong with that, except maybe we could have a little more diversity and inclusion in one of the three Natioal newspapers. Y'know instead of focusing on 2 percent of America.
As for not being a joiner. I can sympathize. Going to church isn't my thing, and I'm usually dragged there by my wife.
Jesus (literally), where does one begin?
No, Jessica, you are one of "The Chosen" by the New York Times precisely because you are not a joiner, and because, like them, you are smug in your not-fully-subdued condescending perception of those who are (ugh) "joiners". But then, flawed logic and a heightened sense of superiority is a trademark and kind of religion practiced at the NYT and most of its disciples/readers. So, too bad, so sad, that does make you a joiner too.
And for the record, thanks to my patron saint on this blog (St. Croix), I have previously commented that IMHO the legacy of the one called "Jesus" is much more powerful if he was NOT the Son of God, but was just a human who sacrificed his life simply for a message of love and forgiveness for all humanity. That message has resonated for millenia. And that message will continue to resonate in those of us with both a strong sense of self and a respectful consideration of a wide variety of religious joiners.
How about "Mass formation Psychosis" like the Trump haters we see? Any analysis about that ?
Another psychology professor. One good thing about the imminent fall of civilization is that there won't be any psychology professors.
Is she a climate change activist? Is she a progressive? If so, then she has a religion after all.
I'm not a joiner either.
I don't want to belong to any organization that would have me as one of its members, as they say.
Atheists don't understand religiosity, and so attribute it to things like uncertainty about "sense of self." I know plenty of religious people who have a very good sense of self, some of whom did not grow up in religious environments. Sure, a religion offers guidance, but most are drawn to it because they find that guidance (and the resulting lifestyle) compelling, not because they are merely lost and looking for anything to grab onto.
Grose’s writing credits feature titles like “The Loneliness of American Motherhood” and “Sad Desk Salad,” but those emotions are probably inevitable since she has such a strong sense of self.
So the people replace traditional religions with the modern leftist secular religions: TDS, anthropogenic climate change, transgenderism, feminism, et cetera, ad nauseam. Joining these modern lefty religions comes with numerous advantages — sleeping in on Sunday (not a problem for someone Jewish), you get to look down upon them ignernt Normals, and you don’t have to worry about strictures against lying, cheating, stealing, or boinking the neighbor’s wife when he isn’t looking. What’s not to like?
And the beat goes on. What a surprise it will be if a supernatural Trinitarian God does exist and the man part of the Trinity takes over governance of the world. Pascal’s wager is in order again.
I'm not a joiner, never have been, presumably born that way. The entire list of things I've joined: all the sports teams I played on for decades and the Writer's Guild (because you have to). No political party ever, and not even a gym.
I didn't even join the antiwar protests during Vietnam on campus because I knew they all "I don't want to get my ass shot off" bullshit, not principled protests, which was proved in January 1973 when Americans came home and the protests stopped but the war still raged. I used to stand off to side and observe, though I did get my share of tear gas when the so-called Blue Meanies from the Alameda County SWAT moved in and herded everyone together.
Behold, God is my helper;
the Lord is the upholder of my life.
Psalm 54:4
The practice of taking part in common worship is subsequent to this primary insight that there is a divine helper and upholder of our life. There is One who holds up everything or else everything would fall into nothingness.
I campaigned to be president of the anarchists once...
That reminds me: I've got Kool-Aid to make.
Joiners are how evolution works nowadays. Used to be lions. Now it's Jim Jones types.
That reminds me: I've got Kool-Aid to make.
Joiners are how evolution works nowadays. Used to be lions. Now it's Jim Jones types.
"The more uncertain you are about your sense of self, the more likely you are to join a group, which can give you guidance on 'what to think, how to feel and how to behave'...."
A hole in this theory could easily be found by looking up how many school shooters have been joiners as opposed to loners. There should be a big enough sample there to call it 'scientific'. I'm no science denier, like some people.
There are also studies indicating church goers (joiners) are less likely to commit crimes and other hitherto... then again, maybe the real problem is there's not enough caos out there.
Lastly, if you are going to bash the church for telling people 'what to think, how to feel and how to behave' and not mention millionaire "influencers", then I think the theory is at the very least incomplete.
I recruit for the League of Non-Joiners. No dues, no meetings, no obligations whatever. But, you can use the need to attend one of our local chapter meetups if you need an excuse to dodge some onerous expectation.
OTOH, if I do join something (historical societies, professional organizations) I work hard in leadership positions.
Almost all of our friends and families are churched--one of our oldest friends and his wife are highly regarded retired pastors--but neither my wife nor I are drawn to religion, or most other forms of collective activity.
She does book club and Outlander cult stuff, so there is that.
extroverts run things and structure the group dynamic, and it's not a comfortable fit for you.
That’s not necessarily so, at least outside the work environment. I’m an introvert, and in groups I’m way more comfortable when I have a job to do. Which means I pretty much always end up in a leadership position.
I really am not a joiner, a partier, a group type. Yet my entire life I’ve been chained to an intense church life. By choice. And by predestination. I have long contended that the New Testament post-gospels is simply about the building of the assembly, the ekklessia, the church. The creation of this group is a bigger miracle than God becoming human.
To conclude, the group is my frenemy.
My family wasn’t joiners. We moved a lot, so joining was challenging, but I also think it was the natural inclination of my parents. Oh sure, we went to church. But we weren’t really involved. I developed a distrust of “organized religion” because I was aware and fearful of cults. Manson Family had an impact. Once I came to faith, that fell away. I find being in Christian community freeing and in no way limiting on a pretty strong sense of self. In fact, it’s likely honed my discerning skills. Still an introvert. Still don’t trust crowds following the loudest voice.
Interesting idea, that someone who is bad at being around other people is somehow better.
Not that anyone else would notice.
"I recruit for the League of Non-Joiners. No dues, no meetings, no obligations whatever. But, you can use the need to attend one of our local chapter meetups if you need an excuse to dodge some onerous expectation."
I would like to not join your organization. It sounds interesting to me.
Sounds like a rehash of the "God gene" theory.
Also, if Jessica Grose isn't a joiner, what will she do when membership in the American Democratic Socialist Party becomes mandatory?
"I would like to not join your organization"
I haven't signed you up, already.
"It sounds interesting to me."
Wait until you don't see the newsletter!
Did any of these have a weak or uncertain sense of self? St. Paul, St. Peter, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen of Alexandria, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, John Wycliffe, Jan Hus, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, William Tyndale, Johann S. Bach, the Wesley brothers, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, William Carey, and I could go on.
You, sir, have a deal! I would shake your hand, but you know.....
A few months, our our vicar explained the significance of Juneteenth to our mostly white congregation. It got me to thinking about how in the olden days a large proportion of the population was hearing a certain kind of message on Sunday, and maybe Saturday, which gave us a common understanding of our shared cultural norms. Nowadays, a cohort of five to 20 people can get together to rob a Louis Vuitton store and think that that’s appropriate behavior.
But, be that as it may, we are all the product of our time and place. We think we are such independent thinkers, but we’re not. I don’t care how many groups you belong to or don’t belong to, your views are shaped by the here and now.
A few months ago, our vicar explained the significance of Juneteenth to our mostly white congregation. It got me to thinking about how in the olden days a large proportion of the population was hearing a certain kind of message on Sunday, and maybe Saturday, which gave us a common understanding of our shared cultural norms. Nowadays, a cohort of five to 20 people can get together to rob a Louis Vuitton store and think that’s appropriate behavior.
But, be that as it may, we are all the product of our time and place. We think we are such independent thinkers, but we’re not. I don’t care how many groups you belong to or don’t belong to, your views are shaped by the here and now.
No handshakes! No handshakes!
"Your views are shaped by the here and now."
True, and how could it be otherwise? But shaping and influencing are very different from defining and limiting, which too many allow to the here and now.
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