The Guardian reports on a study of "the life satisfaction of parents who already had two children of the same sex and went on to have another baby."
Where do we get this desire for "a mix of the sexes"? I think it's that you don't know the not-yet-existing child, so when you already have a child, and you think of adding another, you want it to be different somehow, but you focus on the one difference that's apparent at birth: sex. But there are many other points of difference. It will just take longer to see what they are. It's more subtle. That's the value of having 2 of the same sex. You'll have more subtle observations of difference. And you won't be making those crude proclamations about how the difference between boys and girls is so clear to you because you have a boy and a girl.
But what if you did, for whatever reason, want a boy and a girl, and you got 2 of the same? Should you go for a third? Think about it. You're rolling the dice. You've got a 50-50 chance of getting what you want, and what if you don't? According to this research, the happiness potential is different for the parents of 2 boys and the parents of 2 girls. It's where there are 2 girls that the mother is dissatisfied. And that's where the father is happiest. Is it advisable for that dissatisfied mother of 2 girls to try for a boy and risk the increased dissatisfaction of having 3 girls?
How about you? Were you a second child of the same sex in your family? I was. Did your parents then go for a third? Mine did. Did they get the different-sex baby you might infer that they wanted? Mine did. Do you know for a fact that they went for another baby because you'd disappointed them by being the same sex as your older sibling? I do not, and my mother told me I was planned and my brother and sister were not. Would she have forgotten or gone out of her way to lie? I can't imagine that.
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My mom was third of four girls. I had the sense her father was disappointed not to have any boys, not her mom. A then-rarish college grad, he used to drag daughters to Saturday football games.
boy, girl, girl
The obvious question is, how do the researchers know what the sex of the children is?
It's less than 50-50 of getting what you want if you've had two of the other because the father might be biased the wrong way, not to mention that boys and girls aren't equally likely in the first place.
Cosby said it's the person who had the child last that determines the sex, trying to move the blame to the woman.
The infant seat obsession has reduced the number of parents who have a third child. No room for a third infant seat.
As the middle child I see it is my duty to harass my little brother. Not that I wasn't going to do it anyway, but now I can say that Science! requires I do so.
I got a sister who had two boys and I think she and husband went for a third hoping for a girl.
I'm going to send her a link to the article. Thanks for posting it.
I have two older brothers, and when I too came out a boy (or AMAB, as the kids say), it began a long, long streak of me disappointing my mother.
“my mother told me I was planned and my brother and sister were not”
What did you mother tell your brother and sister?
I'm the middle child of three boys. It went a lot like this:
Man, living at home is such a drag
Now your mom threw away your best porno mag
(Busted)
Don't step out of this house if that's the clothes you're gonna wear
I'll kick you out of my home if you don't cut that hair
Your mom busted in and said, "What's that noise?"
Aw, mom you're just jealous, it's the Beastie Boys
We had two girls, then just took our chips off the table. The first time I was disappointment for about 5 minutes, the second time I was disappointment for quite a bit longer, but still not extending even to hours.
There are very good reasons for wanting to have a boy or have a girl. But unless you are willing to have a lot of babies, it is madness to take the 50/50 chance (technically even worse) of heaving a kid you don't really want.
My wife and I have six boys and no girls. Our first two children were boys we had the third and found out we were expecting twins who were identical boy. We then thought maybe we would get a girl after that. We love our boys. I don't think our lives are worse for not getting that girl.
We now have a granddaughter. She was the first girl to be born into our family since 1946.
What kind of survey is that? All children are a blessing. Children’s Lives Matter.
We have three boys. Having three is harder than having two on most levels, but having had two seriously male boys, I wanted the third to also be a boy. We were set up for boys. I worried about my ability to connect well with a girl if she were very girly.
It’s worked out well. It did decrease my happiness, slightly, to have many people assume we had three because we were trying for a girl.
Seriously? Try for a third? Just assign the second a different gender. It's all mutable anyway. Or you could un-assign them from the start and then see what they choose. If later, the two choose the same gender, then maybe try for a third and steer them toward the gender you think you lack. Though it will be hard because no one really knows what a boy or a girl really are. It's like people seem to be stuck in this medieval mindset about sex and gender. But the REAL issue at play is that they should not have had even one, but if they do, then just the one, for the sake of the planet. Having three is criminally irresponsible. just ask the Chinese.
We decided we would have kids until we ran out of time to have more. After the first 4 were boys, we figured we were just wired that way, and were glad for each one. So we were more than a little surprised when the 7th (and final) was a girl.
I could retire now if I had a nickel for every time some well-meaning person has said "Oh, so you kept trying until you finally got a girl." I'm not proud to say this fills me with a quiet rage.
Children are a commitment we give our lives to. If any baby is going to be a disappointment, better to refrain from contributing to the gene pool.
>Ann Althouse said...
And you won't be making those crude proclamations about how the difference between boys and girls is so clear to you because you have a boy and a girl. <
LOL. Never thought about the possibility of that "proclamation" being a source of offense rather than simply a very valid observation by very qualified observers. But yeah, of course, it's a natural for feminists and tran-fans, mining the depths for "sexism" and "transphobic" offense, isn't it.
Sounds like an oblique endorsement of affirmative action?
My wife had two young girls from her first marriage when we met. We had decided not to have one of our own. We got married and fate intervened. While pregnant I did want a boy - there were multiple reasons. I had already been raising the two girls and wanted a change. I wanted someone who I felt I could relate to better (girls are still a mystery to me). My brothers had all had girls and I was hoping to break the streak. Well, it worked out. We have a son and he's now 16. He's a different kind of mystery but we both will tell you straight up we are happier that he's a male and not another female.
We had 3 boys, a girl, and a boy. And 3 miscarriages.
Over 19 years. >20 if you count the miscarriages...
I'm willing to bet the authors don't define "wellbeing" as we did and do.
We need to cease measuring this sort of crap.
It leads to bad outcomes.
We had two and then adopted. All could have been either sex, but we ended up with five boys.
For us, more was better and I wish we had pushed it even farther.
Dave Begley said...
"What kind of survey is that? All children are a blessing. Children’s Lives Matter."
Agreed.
I am the last of seven - 4 girls and 3 boys. People with my IRL surname, whether related or not, seem to have similar gender ratios over the generations. Which why my surname is so rare.
Boy, girl, surprise boy. But we know of 2 couples who had 2 girls, went back to the well, and ended up with triplets. Your "sense of well-being" in that case is probably more numerically than chromosomally determined, I'd think.
Up-thread, o ye who decided to have children until no more could be had - we did the same, more or less, but after our surprise third was born. No more were forthcoming.
I'm the second boy of four, but functionally more of an oldest of three. My mother said that her first pregnancy and the couple of years afterward were difficult--my brother was a cranky kid from the start. That probably explains why the period between his birthday and mine is the longest at almost four years--compared to him, I was angelic.
Son number three about three years later, and number four about two after that.
My mother never even hinted that any of us were unintended (not that I recall anyway), but my wife's younger brother (after boy, boy, boy, her) was a surprise.
We have only one son, and my brothers never had kids. He'll be the end of the line.
FWIW I never envied the fathers of daughters.
Doc K: what’s your disagreement with the “infant-seat obsession?”
JSM
Youngest of three boys. (needed farm hands). Our sister came along 7 years later...oops. Mom was 43. I never even considered anything was weird about that until we started to make our own. One of each. We didnt care, as long as they were healthy. Our son had twin boys, then another boy. The DIL sweet talked our son into a fourth. She said she always wanted 3, but then realized she meant 3 pregnancies.(riiiggght) But they got their princess. Daughter has 2 girls, and the Dad, though he's a jock, could not be more involved with the girls.
"Our data suggests that the disappointment is mostly from mothers with two girls not having a boy...
Parents that had two children of the same sex experienced a boost to their wellbeing, but this was mostly driven by fathers when the children were two girls...."
This doesn't really help reinforce the "Men are jerks" meme, now does it?
I admit to having been a little nervous about NOT achieving a repeat because it meant having to buy different clothes and sporting goods instead of just reusing all the hand-me-downs.
I hate it when people assume gender is the reason to have more children.
Had two of the same. Was told by the doctor that if I had another, it would probably also be the same because, apparently, the odds aren't actually fifty-fifty. That sounded great. Had another. Was the same. All is well. Think that I would likely have been happy with other hypothetical combinations. I do seem particularly temperamentally suited to the combination I have, but perhaps I would feel similarly about any other combination.
Oops. I’m the third girl in a family of three girls…. I know they didn’t try for a boy. They tried the opposite but were surprised - my mom had been told to either have no more or wait at least 3 years after the second girl. The running joke in the family was that it was a good thing I looked just like my dad when he was little.
I was the youngest with two brothers too old to play with. My mother wanted a girl but my father didn't want any of us, I found out many years later. Too soon after the Depression and all.
She wanted female company I think.
When young folks are getting a team of children, what’s wrong with filling out positions. Who wants all shortstops.
Anyone who feels that bringing a child into the world is in some way a fulfilment of their relationship, and a good deal for the kids, should have kids and keep having them until that changes.
A bias toward planning is a bias toward scarcity. Abundance can't be planned. Scarcity can. Happiness is unplannable.
Side note: we have always joked - to our kids, who all have their father's sardonic sense of humor - that we only ever wanted two kids. Which two varies from day to day...
Our daughter, the lone girl, has always said that she's "safe" because there's no spare for her.
Yin and Yang. We are fulfilled and made whole by the energy of the other. Pretty much explains ALL the rest as well.
Five of the same. Kids are as unique as their DNA.
My rather obstreperous (understatement) younger brother has 3 girls, who have always known how to push his buttons.
He once said to me (jokingly) "Why did God punish me with all girls? They are making me crazy!"
Me: "Think of it this way: You could have had a son who was just like you."
Him: "You are right. I never thought of it that way."
Blogger john mosby said...
Doc K: what’s your disagreement with the “infant-seat obsession?”
JSM
I, amazingly, raised 5 kids (2 boys, 3 girls) without any of them having ever been in a car seat of the type currently being required. I think one cause of infant death is car seats which have to be put in the back seat because of the air bag on the passenger side. Parents may get preoccupied and forget the infant is in back.
The issue I raised with my comment is that most cars do not have room for three car seats, which are now being required for older and older children. This is definitely a class based issue. My 4 year old grand daughter is coming to visit next week and I have to pick up a rental car seat Friday. Her mother, who was never in a car seat, is determined that she be in one here.
A family may give serious consideration to a third child which would require a new, larger car.
I think the the researchers' unstated premise is that large families are undesirable.
Please note that a huge percentage of social science research has never been replicated.
The lack of replication does not even address the issue of journalists trying to flack research that they do not understand or know how to evaluate.
Josephbleau said...
The obvious question is, how do the researchers know what the sex of the children is?
Seriously, (actually, snarkily).. WHO did this research? sounds like some quack lawyer from Omaha!
(just kidding Dave!!)
The obvious question is, how do the researchers know what the sex of the children is?
So after a long post, none of the progressive people here care that some of the research subjects may have been misgendered? I guess that means that they don’t really care if people are miss gendered. Why? Because they like to talk about things like regular people do, but when they feel like it is to their advantage, they stick in the misgendering shive.
I had always dreamed of having my own little girl, a daughter -- and God blessed me with two beautiful girls.
Fourteen years apart -- the oldest turned out not to be my biological daughter but that never changed my outlook when that fact was revealed to me. My youngest is a combination of my mother and me. I think that is God's payback.
A maternal aunt was married to a mob-connected loan shark who beat her and the three youngest of his four daughters. The oldest could do no wrong. My mother said once that God punished Sam by denying him a son.
MarcusB. THEOLDMAN
No, the stated premise is that adults' amorphous potential feelings of "well being" is the highest value they should pursue. Not love for God, not love for neighbor or country or community, not love for their own children.
It's all about me, baby.
"The obvious question is, how do the researchers know what the sex of the children is? So after a long post, none of the progressive people here care that some of the research subjects may have been misgendered?..."
I knew as I was writing this post that I was inviting this kind of talk in the comments and considered saying don't do it, so I'm very pleased that people didn't view this post as simply a softball that they could react to with typical gibes about how do you know what sex/gender it is. I'm glad people responded on topic and didn't get distracted. Maybe my use of the word "sex" made it harder to get started with that sort of thing or maybe people are actually tired of it.
I had three much older sisters. The youngest was named after my granddad. I wonder if I'd have gotten the other granddad's name except my mom's younger sister beat her to it.
Boy girl boy girl boy, Then finally me.
I was the first of three boys, and we had two boys. My second son had two boys before my first son finally had a girl.
I will say my mother loved all her grandkids, but really doted on the girls.
Do people really get paid to "study" things like this? Who and why?? I am upset I wasted my time reading it.
Two pertinant elements absent from the article, especially when the net conclusion is "this is driven entirely by two girls followed by another girl"
1. How many of the studied parents were from groups that have come from cultures that are fine with infanticide when it comes to girls? And how many were from the west? I strongly suspect the former is both more likely and more severely to exhibit negative wellbeing, to the point that enough of the former could overwhelm a more neutral western attitude.
2. What percent of transexuals are third siblings in a son-son-son family. There is already research suggesting that homosexuality is linked to the number of prior sons a woman has had, and that there may be a hormonal reason for this, but is it not worth studying if mothers are more inclined to feminize a son after a string of sons and no daughters? In which case, despite how brave and stunning all transexuals are, some people less progressive than the guardian might consider this to be a case of negative wellbeing.
The low-hanging fruit of course is the same people screaming about the new X that is bad for women are the same people who claim it's impossible to actually define what a woman is.
We are blessed to have had a daughter and then a son. I'll admit that I felt a certain relief when our first-born was a daughter, I was an only child of a single mother so all I knew was femaleness. We were fine to have two girls and when we learned the second was a boy, we felt it would be some kind of adjustment. It wasn't. They are each their own person, with both "typical" and "a-typical" gendered behaviors.
Our son is a darling young man but he doesn't interact with me to the personal extent that my daughter does, so I do think having two sons would *likely* not have brought that particular blessing to my life.
Boy, girl, boy, boy, boy, boy, boy. I was the middle one. And we weren't even Catholic!
When my wife and I found ourselves with two girls, both wanted another child. My wife felt like three kids would complete the family and I agreed with that. I was rooting for the third to be a boy because then I would have a child who would be capable of and interested in things that few girls can do or want to do.
Even as I had a preference, my wife didn't care if we had another girl or if we had a boy. Even though I wanted a boy, I still considered it a win-win situation: If it's a boy, I got what I wanted, if it's a girl, we have all the clothes and the kids won't ever have to worry about privacy as they get older.
Third of three daughters. Born one year after the previous sister, six years after the first. Definitely an accident and a disappointment as my father abandoned the family immediately after my birth because I wasn't a boy, according to what I was told repeatedly. Parents were separated for about ten years after that. Obviously they had a terrible relationship and they should have been divorced, but that wasn't an option in the 50's. I was a tomboy and my father, who was a psychiatrist, believed it was his fault I turned out lesbian -- although he blamed his mother-in-law for causing him to leave. All this discussed shortly before his death. I assured him my gender non-conformity was not due to any of this, at least I never have believed it, but what do I know?
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