Asked what New Yorkers should do in a similar situation, Mr. Adams [a former transit police officer] focused on Mr. Neely’s presence on the train, and did not discourage people from seeking to restrain someone. Every New Yorker has a story of witnessing an outburst or a violent episode on the subway and struggling over how to respond: To confront or flee; to intervene when two riders are at odds; to call for a police officer, or to look away.
Many have grown worried about safety on the subway after experiencing violence or reading about it in the news. Others are so accustomed to conflict that they ignore it.... Karim Walker, 41, [who] often rode the trains when he was homeless... encouraged New Yorkers who see a person in crisis on a train to help by calling for emergency services. 'We’re all wired to do fight or flight, but approach the situation with as much impartiality as possible,' said Mr. Walker."
From "A Subway Killing Stuns, and Divides, New Yorkers/After a homeless man was killed on the subway, New Yorkers and elected officials are mourning his death and debating how the city should address mental health and public safety" (NYT).
The article says "There is no indication that he was violent or that he made any direct threats," but the most highly rated comments over there object to that way of putting it:
Notice how this article omits that he told everyone he was 'ready to get a life sentence' after he had been yelling at people and behaving erratically. Instead they cite a different quote to make it seem like he was less of a threat than his other words indicate. gee- I wonder what type of act would trigger a life sentence in this scenario? Taking someone's sandwich?
And, from someone else:
This guy had been terrorizing people on the subway for years. 43 arrests, with many against women and the elderly . The rider who got involved was trying to help others (yes there are people that still do that). The government won't enforce the law.....so its citizens are often left in dangerous situations.
I could quote many more comments like that, and I'm not seeing any that accuse the Marine who applied the chokehold of murder. Before you accuse the Marine, I'd say, you need to blame the city for not making the subway safe.
Posts
91 comments:
Our government has failed us and it failed Neely.
The Marine applied cruel neutrality, but I doubt the DA will see it it that way.
I don't know that you've had a better sentence at this site than the last one in this post, Althouse.
People need to connect these events to the political or community leaders that created or exacerbated the conditions that lead up to them. Soros-funded DAs, defund the police activists, bail reformers, people advocating to let homeless people encroach on public space, etc. need to be held to account. Things were not like this not too long ago, and people remember that.
It’s tragic that this man died. The bigger looming tragedy is there are more to come if a blind eye prevails.
If the marine had been a black man, we’d have never heard of this event.
It’s only news because he was white and the media and politicians have ignored the black men who helped the marine protect other people on the subway.
That the race baiters would use an event like this to advance their cause is proof they’re disingenuous.
In the wake of Hurricane Sandy, my spouse and I traveled to Staten Island three times assist in the clean-up. On our day off, our group caught the Staten Island ferry to Manhattan for a day trip. Even though I am a country bumpkin, I have studied situational awareness and I am on constant alert for untenable situations. Riding the subway then put me on high alert. It was bad then, it must off the charts now. I will never return. You cannot defend yourself in public nor in the court system.
Never loose sight of the fact, cops are there to protect the criminals from their victims.
This event shines a large spotlight on that truth.
Go back to origins. Why organize police? Police are not a constitutional creation. That informs us, that the power, exercised by to police were delegated to the police, by those that do have those powers. The PEOPLE. Delegating the power does not mean you still don't have the power.
The problem is, the judiciary wont allow that bit of constitution to the juries hearing the evidence. Just like a defense lawyer, cannot tell a jury, they have the power to reject the law if they know the law does not apply to the case, are the govt is abusing the law, in word and deed.
This is what happens when you have to defend yourself, because the government is more interested in stealing your money to send to Ukraine, or to support illegals. If you think it is going to get better....THINK again.
Before you accuse the Marine, I'd say, you need to blame the city for not making the subway safe.
Very similar situation with Kyle Rittenhouse and Kenosha.
It's reported that General Mattis told the Marines in Iraq: "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."
That was Iraq after the invasion, a hostile environment where one's situational awareness would be heightened, presumably, not NYC on a subway in 2023 but these days who can tell the difference, really? I was in the post office this weekend and the clerk was taking awhile and I started looking around a bit, thinking, I need to be more alert, how far am I from the door, in case something kicks off. And that's in a suburb late mid-morning on a Saturday in a "nice" neighborhood.
"A Subway Killing Stuns, and Divides, New Yorkers
I read this sentence and its use of "divides" as if the split was close to 50/50. I thought that it didn't seem likely, as it seemed even on the political left it rather split. The posted comments answers the questions, few are divided on the issues. I think the vast majority recognize the threat hasn't gotten too bad to simply ignore. Action is needed, and that action isn't punishing those that defend themselves.
"Before you accuse the Marine, I'd say, you need to blame the city for not making the subway safe."
C'mon, 43 arrests and an outstanding felony warrant!
Arrested 43 times. His last spin of the wheel landed on green. I wonder if the Corps has a ribbon for riding public transportation.
let's review the marines REAL CRIMES
a) he was white. That's right: a honky cracker
b) he was a man a cis male, not a proper trans male
white cis males CANNOT be allowed to walk the streets; let alone stop crazy bros from assaulting white women!
Oh, and K2 Spice in his bloodstream...was that mentioned in the article? I must have missed it.
Absolutely. This bleeds over into those incidents where that poor kid was shot by the old man going to the wrong house or the lady shot by pulling into the wrong driveway. People are becoming more paranoid about violent criminals because police are not enforcing the little things. It's a bad situation.
And yet, it is absolutely certain that the voters in NYC will continue voting for the party that supports and protects criminals while chastising and prosecuting normal, law-abiding citizens who act to defend themselves and others.
But yeah, I guess it's all worth it so nice, college-educated women can continue killing inconvenient babies.
Soros and Open Society funded no policing. Their ‘knock America down from the inside’ strategy dovetails nicely with elite white liberals need to stop the slide of the black vote. White liberals desperately need it to work so they’re going to keep digging…
We’ve known how to address the homeless problem for generations- or at least since I was doing outreach in college. There are the mentally ill. We used to institutionalize but medicine made some horrible mistakes, but housing the mentally ill was not one of them. Then there are the addicts and the only thing that works is separating addicts from their drugs. Of course the left has effed it all up in the name of ‘compassion’ so we spend too much money pandering and enabling addicts and not enough on the mentally ill.
There is too much at stake politically so none if it will get better…likely ever.
"Very similar situation with Kyle Rittenhouse and Kenosha."
Except:
Rittenhouse...
1. deliberately traveled to the place where he believed his help was needed, 2. armed himself in advance, and 3. only shot at people who were in the middle of attacking him.
The Marine...
1. Was just riding the subway for the purpose of riding the subway, 2. wasn't armed and used only what he had, his own physical strength, 3. took action before the man began a physical attack.
Strongly agree with AA for her first take pointing out city shortcoming in subway safety.
Glenn Reynolds in the Instapundit blog often comments that those who advocate defunding the police are forgetting that the police are as much there to protect the accused from the public as to protect the public from the accused.
Ann Althouse: "you need to blame the city for not making the subway safe."
No. You need to blame the people of New York. They elected "the city." "The city" is the Democrat Party. The Democrat Party in New York runs the subway, the mental health system and the police department. And they routinely re-elect them. Despite this sorry record of service.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people of New York, having been warned time and time again that if they continue to re-elect Democrats this violence will be the result. We're done warning you people. Enjoy living in the filth you put in power.
Believing the NYT's reportage is a fool's gambit.
When I think about how critically important the subway is to NYC, it astounds me that the city's so-called leaders have allowed it to decay to the point that ordinary middle-class people simply cannot bring themselves to use it. Same is true in the cases of a lot of leftist-run cities and their public facilities.
You'd think that even the leftists in charge of these places would recognize that something has to be done about crime, homelessness, and public disorder that have essentially destroyed once-great cities.
Even NYT readers not buying the bullshit NYT/DNC narrative this time. Nice. Even the Squawd seems to be out there alone simping with the psycho. Lincoln was right. You can’t fool all the people all the time.
What does it mean to be arrested 43 times for harassing, terrorizing and actually assaulting people? Well, most times this behavior does not result in an actual arrest. So, if he was arrested 43 times, he probably engaged in this king of behavior...oh...a thousand times, or two thousand times, or ten thousand times.
Neely long ago served notice that he was not fit to live among civilized society. He should have been removed to a jail or mental facility. There is no reason ordinary citizens should have to live side by side with Neely in their city.
“…Stuns, and divides…”. NYT working hard to set the tone here. We all need to feel dislocated, missing our compass. And we have to feel alienated, divided, ready to denigrate and hate those who see things differently.
This is how you get clicks. And this is how you pretend merely to report what is “actually happening,” while in fact shaping it.
Journalism: is there anything it can’t do?
"The government won't enforce the law.....so its citizens are often left in dangerous situations."
This is a prog two-fer: keep citizens in fear, go after them if they defend themselves.
"Before you accuse the Marine, I'd say, you need to blame the city for not making the subway safe."
Well, "you" may need to do that in the nice world of reasonable people, but the prog DA doesn't need to do any such thing.
By the way, how long before "citizens" start defending their communities against the invasion?
'Except: Rittenhouse...'
And don't forget, he crossed state lines!
***
I can only speak to BART in the Bay Area.
We have tons of crazies too. The problem is, these guys (almost always guys) are allowed onto the platform without a ticket. They just walk through the gate and nobody stops them. Then they spend hours and days on the platforms as the trains come and go.
Add to that no BART cops are on the platforms or on the trains...ever.
Make them pay for a damned ticket and you will stop 95% of this.
They would rather spend the $5 on drugs than on train fare...
I wish the victims of crime in urban centres like New York would band together and bring a class action suit against the city for negligence in protecting citizens from known threats.
"A Subway Killing Stuns, and Divides, New Yorkers/After a homeless man was killed on the subway, New Yorkers and elected officials are mourning his death and debating how the city should address mental health and public safety"
Even the headline is completely dishonest.
How many New Yorkers were "stunned" that this happened? Ridiculous. Nobody was stunned or surprised by this. And the incident didn't divide them, the media and the politicians did.
Equally ridiculous and dishonest is the statement that New Yorkers and officials are "mourning" a mentally ill, homeless man they didn't even know and who most weren't even aware existed until after he died. What crap.
And are they actually "debating" how the city should address mental health problems and public safety? It would be more accurate to say elected officials are trying to leverage this incident to further the agendas they already have.
Yes, no one tried to free the crazy man who had been screamingly threateningly at everyone.
But, the marine and the other two who helped restrain Neely did attempt some basic first aid after the choke hold was released. There's video of it. As usual, the Times employs deceptive language to create a false impression.
Ann @ 11:37: Nice analysis. Except for the (3) Marine “took action before the man began a physical attack.” I am a 1A absolutist —I think “hate speech” is still free speech— but there is a liminal zone where words stop being words and become actionable assault. The law recognizes this. So how much yelling and flailing —in a crowded space *from which nobody can exit*— is protected from some physical countermeasure? If I stare fixedly at this guy and square up, form fists, raise my arm as an anticipatory block, have I overreacted? Do I wait for him to charge me before it is OK to move on him? Once I move and apply my learning to stop him (not hurt him) how much struggling must I tolerate? Nobody has searched him; he may have a blade (or even a gun: yes, a long rap sheet and a history of mental illness is no bar to possession of a firearm); when I release my hold he will be very angry and I am almost guaranteed some retaliatory strikes. What is permitted to me as I watch him yell and threaten a carload of travelers?
Come on: what’s the answer? You have 1…2…seconds to commit. Or quit.
Oops: time’s up!
Because it doesn't fit their narrative??
"Why isn’t the media covering the fact that Daniel Penny was complemented by other passengers and also put Jordan Neely in the recovery position? "
https://redstate.com/bonchie/2023/05/07/watch-full-video-further-complicates-narrative-around-jordan-neelys-death-n742594
Two other people (both of color) assisted the Marine in pinning down this dangerous "person of no house". Despite this, the Liberal/left has tried to make it a WHITE MAN KILLS BLACK MAN, incident.
They do it, because the Liberal/left hates white people.
They just released more video which shows the marine and the other two guys, after the "man of no house" fainted, putting him on his side, expressing great concern, and generally trying to help him breathe/wake up.
Again, why aren't the news stories focusing in on the lack of action by the transit police? People were alerting the police (including the Marine) when this first started and it took the police 15 fucking minutes to show up. How many thousands, if not tens of thousands of police and transit police are there in NYC?
In other news, the Oklahoma black man who assassinated two random men for being white, has been charged with a hate crime. Further, the NC black man who shot up a white family (including a six year old girl) has NOT been charged with a hate crime.
Why don't people ever get upset at obvious race-baiting and hatred of white people shown by the MSM? Every white on black crime is front page news. Every murder of white by black is buried. Even when its an obvious racial hate crime.
Ultimately, the police ae there to protect criminals. In the absence of police, every crime may be a capital offense...
Rittenhouse carried but did not wield his weapon in a threatening manner. The short version may allow inference of a scenario similar to the recent trans-visibility activism, Antifa mobbing vehicles, SS BLM invading neighborhoods, etc.
This case is similar to George Floyd, but whereas Floyd suffered from a Fentanyl-indued progressive condition that prompted a premature exit from the police vehicle, surrounded by a mob that interfered with licensed (e.g. medical) access, Neely suffered from a preexisting condition that was triggered by a restraint. There is no evidence that the Marine choked Neely.
From Detroit to Chicago to NYC to San Francisco and back to NYC and all the other hot spots that have emerged with social progress and a low trust society.
AOC: He was unarmed. Nobody was in danger.
THEM: Neely was killed... by an unarmed man.
AOC: Neely deserves our sympathy and protection. You do not.
THEM: My cousin says Nashville has pleasant weather and great schools.
From Gotham to Ghost Town in three easy steps.
So I just have to ask....as Jordan Neely did NOT die on the subway, but later in the hospital, how could neck compression be the cause of death? Did the former Marine use some secret choke hold technique that kills later, like the "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique" in Kill Bill?
Birches said:
"Absolutely. This bleeds over into those incidents where that poor kid was shot by the old man going to the wrong house or the lady shot by pulling into the wrong driveway. People are becoming more paranoid about violent criminals because police are not enforcing the little things. It's a bad situation."
Perceptive, and what I've been trying to get across for years, with no effect. The effect you're noting is a precise corollary to "Broken Windows Policing", in that all of this criminality creates a set of behavioral effects across society that results in actions/counterreactions we should duly dread.
You don't police shoplifting? Shoplifting becomes endemic; stores go out of business; shoplifters, habituated to the lifestyle of not paying, spread out to areas where retailers remain. Locals, having noted the dearth of "retail opportunities" inside the "shoplifting zone of lawlessness" decide they don't want that for their area, resulting in massive over-reaction to anyone looking remotely "shoplifty" (read: Inner-city black), and then the accusations fly. Violence ensues, "racism" is cried, and slip the hounds of civil unrest; which in turn, won't go the way the "inner-city yout'" expect it to; large numbers of them are going to die in the ensuing violence.
We're only in the beginning stages of this, right now: As the city-zone Targets and Walmarts close down, observe the criminal move out to the suburbs and countryside, where they're going to get a different reaction than they're used to, and discover that rural/suburban cops still arrest and the public still expects to see them jailed. Observe the media response, attempting to demonize the country-dwellers over this. Who will promptly hunker down and start stacking bodies at some point; if this situation is allowed to progress and is not arrested, then you're likely going to see a situation wherein the "urban crime zones" are effectively shut down and left to rot. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see all these "light rail" ventures vandalized and effectively put out of operation, because people will rightly see them as conveyor belts for transferring criminality from the inner cities out to the suburbs. Anyone matching the profile for "criminal" will likely simply be disappeared, should they show up in the wrong areas...
Social decay on steroids. Who, do you suppose, is to blame for all of this? Is it the average productive citizen, out in the hinterlands? Is it the criminal city dweller (and, don't you worry... That will be a coming stereotype. An accurate one), or is it the asshole "theorist" and "activist" that made all this happen with "defunding the police" and neutering the so-called "justice system" for the benefit of the criminally inclined?
Observe. See if I'm (sadly) not right.
That is the problem with second guessing the men who restrained Neely- we and they had no idea what happens if they don't restrain Neely. This is why I come down on the side of this being justified. It would be perfectly reasonable to expect Neely to pull out a weapon at some point, at which point restraining him is far more dangerous to attempt.
Like I wrote last week- this is a far closer case of actual homicide than the George Floyd case given what is on the video I have seen, which included none of what proceeded the takedown. However, since then I have heard the accounts of the witnesses of what proceeded, so I make my judgment on it. I will point out something- it isn't easy to restrain a full grown adult male for 15 minutes without employing a chokehold of some kind- you don't dare ever let him go if you think he might have a weapon. It really would be like having a tiger by the tail.
Point of order: The Marine did not apply a chokehold. A chokehold restricts the airway with the forearm. The Marine applied a carotid hold, and this can be seen in the photos. The crook of his elbow is placed to leave the airway unrestricted, while forearm and bicep are applying pressure to either side of the neck. The purpose of the hold is to restrict bloodflow to the brain until the subject passes out.
Use of the word 'chokehold' implies that the subject was asphyxiated - and it's wrong to imply that, especially with video evidence to the contrary. We don't know what the cause of death is. But it does appear that the Marine was using the carotid hold appropriately (as trained), and that he moved the subject (with assistance) to the recovery position after releasing him.
intervene to help =====>>> fight with the big marine?
Other readers have already noted and praised the last sentence of the Ann Althouse's post:
Before you accuse the Marine, I'd say, you need to blame the city for not making the subway safe.
It is a strange and unwanted attribute of the criminal law that it often diverts attention from the real issue. I remember from a Crim law course a comment on how train disasters are often followed by a criminal prosecution of the fatigued rail worker who feel asleep at the switch, and never on the rail way owners who required workers to work long shifts. The prosecution of the rail worker is like a magic act, that makes the part played by management vanish in thin air.
So here. Much of the commentary will be focused on whether the marine should be tried, and if so, whether he will be convicted. Very little will be focused on why 50 years or so ago, asylums were closed en mass, and why groups like the ACLU oppose any effort to commit insane people, absent strong evidence (oftern unobtainable) that they are an imminent and obvious clear and present danger to themselves or the public. The ACLU and the politicians who favor keeping the aylums closed and keeping troubled people like Mr. Neeley on the trains and in the public parks are like the managers of the railways, who after every accident use a criminal trial of at most a bit actor for shield their responsibility from public scrutiny.
What Adams should so is to lobby for something like a grand jury, composed of citizens, including subway riders, and armed with a budget and supoena power, to investigate why people in Mr. Neeley's condition are not being committted.
Ann Althouse said:
Something that only a pettifogging lawyer would:
""Very similar situation with Kyle Rittenhouse and Kenosha."
Except:
Rittenhouse...
1. deliberately traveled to the place where he believed his help was needed, 2. armed himself in advance, and 3. only shot at people who were in the middle of attacking him.
The Marine...
1. Was just riding the subway for the purpose of riding the subway, 2. wasn't armed and used only what he had, his own physical strength, 3. took action before the man began a physical attack."
The salient feature for both the Rittenhouse case and this one would be this, for any sane outside observer: The government, as a representative of what should be society's goals, which would be "general order", failed to act effectively.
Rittenhouse did what anyone should do, in the face of riot: He acted in good faith as an agent of social order and civilization. He had ties to the community he defended; he was not a random outsider showing up to take advantage of the situation, as so many of the "rioters" were. Similarly, Daniel Penny was on-scene when an uncaged lunatic threatened others, and acted in concert with several others to reassert the frayed fabric of civilization in that subway.
In both cases, "legitimate authority" was notably absent; said "authorities" were not doing their jobs, for which the community paid them. They abdicated their duties; as such, the lot of them from the mayor of New York City down to the Transit Authority cops responsible for maintaining order should be at the dock beside Daniel Penny. Their unindicted co-conspirators in the twin industries of "homeless advocacy" and "judicial reform" ought to be standing there with them, because in the final analysis, they did rather more to murder Mr. Neely than anyone else. He should have been in a residential treatment program, safely away from casual strangers he could threaten into accidentally ending his deranged life.
You do not recognize it, but you have more culpability in all of this, by far, than the average citizen. Your work inside the "legal system" has done more to "break the (imperfect) system" than anyone else; you've fundamentally mistaken what the hell the whole thing is supposed to be doing, which is emphatically not providing some ideal abstract of perfect justice; it's just supposed to work, keeping everything more-or-less on an even keel, providing sufficient behavioral modification to keep everything ticking over sufficiently well such that the general trend accrues towards benefiting the contributing majority.
Who will quit contributing once enough of them realize you've made it a chump's game. You don't realize it, but all you've done, all your works down all the years, has done more to tear down the actual structural supports for social congress than you ever imagined even existed. You lot have torn down so many of Chesterton's Fences that you didn't even recognize for fences that it's not even funny. You've brought back nature, red in tooth and claw; I just hope you get to see the final results, with armed guards on the local supermarkets and burned-out cars of potential "urban looters" slaughtered as preventative by fed-up vigilantes.
That's your legacy, you and your "idealistic" ilk. I hope you like it. We're only at the beginning stages, with this; the things you see and decry here? Merely the opening precursory tremblors. The earthquakes have yet to come.
"It does not appear that any riders intervened to help Mr. Neely; at least two other riders appeared to help pin him down...."
The second half of that sentence contradicts the first half
Holding him down WAS helping him. it was keeping him from further damaging his life by committing another crime.
What's that? There's nothing wrong with criminally assaulting people? Well them scum bag NYT writer, I hope you spend the rest of your life being repeatedly criminally assaulted.
Grabbing someone around the neck to restrain them is not necessarily a chokehold. And a chokehold does not always end in death.
Our gentle subway menace took three men to hold him down. At least one restrainer seems to have been of African ancestry, a white supremacist clearly.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people of New York, having been warned time and time again that if they continue to re-elect Democrats this violence will be the result. We're done warning you people. Enjoy living in the filth you put in power.
5/8/23, 7:50 AM
THIS^^^^^^
There was some relative of Neely on television. She was saying that he was a lovely man and didn't deserve to be homeless or to be killed like that. She and others are blaming the Marine for intervening. Well, why didn't she ever intervene in Neely's downward spiral. Why does the family put the blame on the city and the guilt on this Marine. I get the sense that they're looking for big bucks in some kind of lawsuit....The media isn't reporting this story fairly. They show pictures of Neely on the subway doing an accomplished Michael Jackson imitation and then they cut to show a snippet of him locked helpless in the Marine's choke hold. There are extant other videos of him ranting and cursing in an extremely vile way but these are not shown. I'd also like to hear an interview with the elderly woman who he punched in the face or maybe the mother of the child he snatched. Neely had a hard, sullied life but he inflicted substantial pain on the lives of others. ...There have been some demonstrations in his favor, but these are the usual anti-fa gang. They're hoping to trigger a confrontation with the cops and pick up a few bucks in the subsequent lawsuit.....I live in NYC . I don't know anyone who wants to convict or even try the Marine, and I know lots of people here who hope Trump gets life. The politicians and the media are way, way off base on this one.
If you charge the Marine, you've also got to charge the other people that apparently helped keep the guy subdued.
Here in Texas there is a legal term called "mutual combat" where two people who agree to fight are not assaulting each other. Does NY have a similar law, because it might just apply here, if one assumes the decedent was capable of consenting to what he was offering, a fight.
Ann Althouse said...
"Very similar situation with Kyle Rittenhouse and Kenosha."
Except:
Rittenhouse...
1. deliberately traveled to the place where he believed his help was needed,
Wow. So you're saying he's an awesome do-gooder, right?
You're not criticizing / attacking him for wanting to make the world a better place, are you?
Who's next, Mother Teresa? After all, she "deliberately traveled to the place where she believed her help was needed"
2. armed himself in advance
Exercised his Constitutional and Natural right of self defense, and further more was intelligent and thoughtful, so planned ahead
3. only shot at people who were in the middle of attacking him.
and who would have murdered him if he hadn't had the gun
"Oh, all but one of the 'attackers' wasn't armed!!11!"
Yeah, neither was the Marine. Unarmed people can kill you
1. Was just riding the subway for the purpose of riding the subway, 2. wasn't armed and used only what he had, his own physical strength, 3. took action before the man began a physical attack.
1: Took action after the man announced that he was a threat to those around him
2: "The man" shouted that he was going to harm people, then moved towards people. That's the Platonic Ideal of "beginning a physical attack".
Punching someone is the completion of a physical attack, not the beginning of it
In a sane world, doing what Neeley did would be tried, convicted, and punished as a crime of physical violence
But in a sane world, he'd been locked up someplace where he couldn't be a threat to others, or himself.
Now, reality check: most of the people on that subway keep on voting for Democrats, or not voting. So at a fundamental level they deserve to be threatened and attacked by Neeley, because that's what they voted for. So my sympathy for them is low
"Jordan was a victim of a city run by progressives who’ve been fighting a war on poverty for decades where poor people just get poorer. Jordan was a victim of Lefties patting themselves on the backs for not expecting much from him, and raging at anyone and calling them racists if they wanted more for him."
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2023/05/08/inconvenient-to-lefties-deets-from-family-and-new-yorkers-about-jordan-neely-coming-to-light/
"2. armed himself in advance"
Demonstrating... what?
You have a jack and a spare tire in your car. When you drive to the market, do you intend or expect to have to change a flat tire?
I was in the post office this weekend and the clerk was taking awhile and I started looking around a bit, thinking, I need to be more alert, how far am I from the door, in case something kicks off.
=========
wise if on your own >> what if you are with any [young] companions?
is it wise just to be prepared to out run the speed challenge?
Very similar situation with ... Adrian Kaczmarek
When looking for any footage of earlier parts of the recent Neely confrontation in NYC, I found this on Youtube of Adrian Kaczmarek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1LqoUPjqRQ
LA Times coverage of the 2016 encounter on the Los Angeles Metro and Adrian Kaczmarek:
"A Metro train passenger who used a chokehold to subdue a combative shirtless man aboard an Expo line car is being lauded as a HERO for his swift actions."
...
"As the man cursed at the other passenger and moved erratically toward him, Kaczmarek came up from behind him and placed him in a chokehold. The video shows the man gradually losing consciousness and then falling to the floor of the car."
Kaczmarek's encounter was covered widely with the moniker HERO consistently being applied.
You also need to blame anyone who gives Ben Crump a public platform.
Use of the word 'chokehold' implies that the subject was asphyxiated - and it's wrong to imply that, especially with video evidence to the contrary. We don't know what the cause of death is. But it does appear that the Marine was using the carotid hold appropriately (as trained), and that he moved the subject (with assistance) to the recovery position after releasing him.
Medical, military, or self-defense? This is a probable interpretation of the available evidence and a compelling distinction.
Do we know who assisted in restraining the man? Because if the Marine is charged, how can they not be charged as accessories. I'm asking about who they are because there's a good chance their identiies might break the narrative or, sadly, reinforce it until things burn if the other two men are white.
"Before you accuse the Marine, I'd say, you need to blame the city for not making the subway safe."
Wow. This certainly wouldn't be the order of operations in the court case. What other societal trends (factual and otherwise) do we need to address before we can say don't kill people on the subway? Speaking as a daily subway rider.
"We don't know what the cause of death is."
From the NY Post:
Jordan Neely’s cause of death was “compression of neck (chokehold)” and the manner constituted a homicide, the medical examiner determined Wednesday afternoon.
"But it does appear that the Marine was using the carotid hold appropriately (as trained), and that he moved the subject (with assistance) to the recovery position after releasing him."
This chokehold or carotid hold or whatever highly technical term is what killed Nealy. I'm not sure what you mean by "appropriate use of carotid hold" since this guy was a civvie in the subway, not a Marine in Fallujah. The appropriate use of a carotid hold was not to use a carotid hold.
"It would be perfectly reasonable to expect Neely to pull out a weapon at some point, at which point restraining him is far more dangerous to attempt."
They had to kill him in case he pulled out a weapon. Huh.
It is REMARKABLE what you all will explain away in order to stick to the political narrative.
This is simple. Don't murder people on the train. And we need to make the trains safer and provide much better supports and solutions for homeless people.
3. took action before the man began a physical attack.
You appear to be in the "everybody has to take a beating sometime".
Is there a one free punch rule on the NYC subway system now?
Brylinski said...
Oh, and K2 Spice in his bloodstream...was that mentioned in the article? I must have missed it.
--https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/synthetic-cannabinoids-cathinones
The rise in synthetic cathinone and cannabinoid use has been linked to a wide range of unpredictable effects, including agitation, psychosis, and delirium.1 Managing and stabilizing the complex toxic effects of these drugs can be challenging.
Synthetic Cannabinoids
Colloquially known as spice, these designer synthetic cannabinoid receptor agonists have potent intrinsic activity at the cannabinoid (CB) 1 and 2 receptors.
<
Furthermore, synthetic cannabinoids are often adulterated with ingredients to either enhance or attenuate the drug high, resulting in clinically unpredictable toxicological profiles.5
Excited Delirium
A systematic review reported that 25% to 94% of patients diagnosed with excited delirium were recently exposed to synthetic cannabinoids and/or cathinones. The American College of Emergency Physicians has provided guidance on evaluating excited delirium, for which a minimum of 6 of 10 clinical criteria are required to make a diagnosis. If undertreated, the case-fatality rate is estimated to be 20%, partly due to catecholaminergic cardiorespiratory failure. The cornerstone of treatment is rapid sedation to reduce the sympathomimetic outflow and facilitate lifesaving treatments.18
--
Shades of St. Floyd
it isn't easy to restrain a full grown adult male for 15 minutes...
And it did not happen here either. The mayor noted that cops arrived 6 minutes after the 911 calls came in and passengers called prior to the four men restraining Neely. He was already let loose and placed in the recovery position by then. "!% minutes" is what the dishonest activists were shouting but it has no bearing on the facts, as Adams said at the press conference that day. This is a great example of how viral #fakenews is compared to actual facts even when corrected by authorities almost immediately. Sad.
USA to NYT , hold my beer; "Jordan Neely, a beloved subway performer, grew up in a family of musicians who want him to be remembered as a "human being," a family lawyer said"
The salient feature for both the Rittenhouse case and this one would be this, for any sane outside observer: The government, as a representative of what should be society's goals, which would be "general order", failed to act effectively.
Perfectly framed. THIS is the issue at the heart of many problems and why the democrat goon squads keep agitating for fewer cops: anarchy is their goal.
The police won't enforce the law and the prosecutors won't put criminals in jail. The people are going to take matters into their own hands as a result. Remember, as much as anything, the police exist to protect the criminals from the people taking the law into their own hands and distributing justice on the spot.
If you are going to imply that Joseph Rosenbaum, Anthony Huber, and Gaige Grosskreutz were lawfully present in Kenosha on that night then the same applies to Kyle Rittenhouse.
Don't start none, won't be none.
YOU MUST NEVER INTERFERE WITH ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOR BY BLACK AMERICANS! YOU MUST ALWAYS DEFER TO BLACK AMERICANS' SH*T BCECAUSE SLAVERY! YOU HAVE TO TAKE WHATEVER THEY GIVE YOU AND THEN SAY "THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER".
IF YOU INTERFERE IN ANY WAY IT BETTER BE GOOD GODDAMN WELL AFTER YOU'VE BEEN ASSAULTED OR KILLED! NOT BEFORE!
These are the new rules.
Lauren Heike unavailable for comment.
The article says "There is no indication that he was violent or that he made any direct threats”
The article lies.
Blogger Real American said...
The police won't enforce the law and the prosecutors won't put criminals in jail. The people are going to take matters into their own hands as a result. Remember, as much as anything, the police exist to protect the criminals from the people taking the law into their own hands and distributing justice on the spot.
And we now have multiple jurisdictions that will punish self defense and celebrate the criminals. The rancher in Arizona is only one. This kid is another.
Daniel 12 communist enthusiast said:
It is REMARKABLE what you all will explain away in order to stick to the political narrative.
The "political narrative" is that you cannot defend yourself on the subway ?
Good luck there, lefty.
Blogger Tom said...
If the marine had been a black man, we’d have never heard of this event.
The Hispanic who did the mass shooting in Texas has already become a "white supremacist" before we even know if he was legal.
"Every New Yorker has a story of witnessing an outburst or a violent episode on the subway and struggling over how to respond ... "
In decades of commuting by car I've never witnessed an outburst or a violent episode in my car.
In decades of flying around the country for business and pleasure I've never witnessed an outburst or a violent episode in the airplane.
In both cases there are strict controls over who may board and ride. No such controls exist for the subway and as far as I know no such controls are planned. The solution is simple, but it is neither easy nor cheap to implement. Perhaps costly expansions should be delayed until rider safety can be assured.
Nah. Ain't gonna happen.
The "political narrative" is that you cannot defend yourself on the subway ?
The political narrative is that you can kill someone on the subway who is bothering you.
"Big Mike said...
The article says "There is no indication that he was violent or that he made any direct threats”
The article lies."
Never ending bullshit. It's a theme. Althouse should have a tag for it; probably be her most used tag.
The difference between the NYC subway and the London Underground is striking. Aggressive, ranting people are not allowed on the Underground or in the buses. Feels significantly safer.
It is REMARKABLE what you all will explain away in order to stick to the political narrative.
A leftist just wrote that. Without a hint of irony.
The norm in NYC, when you find yourself confronted by a nut in the subway, is to say nothing, do nothing, avoid eye contact -- just get away. You never know what the nut is capable of doing, and there are too many instances of people getting clobbered (or worse) because they were on the wrong platform or in the wrong subway car at the wrong time. And, when someone gets hurts in the subway by a nut, you often see comments about 'how could all those bystanders do nothing other than take out a phone and start recording it.'
This is what people are talking about here, and it's as divisive as the Berny Goetz incident was in the 1980s. For those old enough to remember, Goetz was acquitted of the serious charges -- just went down on a gun possession charge. Neely is positioned to do better even as the jury pool in Manhattan may be a bit worse for him now than it was for Goetz 40 years ago -- Neely was taking action (with two other guys) to stop mayhem before it got bad, the kind of guy not concerned about himself and willing to act to protect others. In short, the kind of guy every non-crazy NYer wants to have in his subway car when things go sideways. Not a surprise that even DA Bragg's office is taking its time and that the NYPD officers on the scene did not arrest any of those involved in Neely's death.
Did he happen to say, hey man let me go. I won’t act crazy anymore?
A lot of exemplary black heroes from Travon to Mike hands up don’t shoot, to Eric the cigarette guy, to Fentanyl Floyd to this dude. What’s up with these people
Daniel12,
If you are standing in a subway car claiming you are going to hurt the people inside the car, you ought to expect someone's foot squashing your testicles, and someone else's foot knocking your teeth down your throat. No one is obligated to take a beating if one is being threatened. As it happened, they didn't beat the shit out of Neely like he had earned- it appears the marine sought to subdue him and accidentally killed him. It is probably involuntary manslaughter at worst, but if the witnesses are recounting what happened prior to the take down, it is justified in a civilized society that cares about one's fellow, innocent inhabitants.
Maybe everyone on the subway should have stun guns instead. One would have been handy that day.
"In crisis."
Everyone in the train car was in a crisis they did not seek or cause.
https://www.frontpagemag.com/nyc-kept-jordan-neely-out-of-prison-after-assaulting-67-year-old-woman/#.ZFlgtxk91Kc.twitter
I wonder where all the "victim concern" was, when they caught and released Neely after assaulting that little old lady? Were there any lawyers looking to do pro bono work for her and her family, to hold Neely accountable and keep him from hurting others?
Nope. And, that fact tells you all that you need to know about our modern legal profession. They're more concerned with the criminal than with the victim.
It will hardly come as a surprise to anyone capable of working out cause from effect when the informal extra-judicial actions start happening, nor will the fact that a bunch of the legal profession will be going to go up against the wall right next to their favored clients. There will come an end point to all of this, and afterwards? If there is one, it will be a vastly different sort of affair, one where decent people aren't going to be held hostage by the criminals or their advocates.
You can see what's likely coming, if you just squint a bit through the lens of historical lessons on these issues. My advice to any and all? Stay the hell away from the mob, if you know what's good for you. Lawyers, judges, and cops? Y'all may want to reconsider your professional choices; there are invoices being totted up, as we speak, that you will be called upon to pay. The activist class are not your friends; you should not listen to them, nor should you be doing their bidding.
I'm not sure what the precise initiator is going to be, but there will come a cusp, a tipping point, a preference cascade... A Timisoara moment for the ages. Before that, things will be much the same as they are today, gradually worsening. The day after? Oh, my sweet summer children, you have no idea what is coming. None.
Few of you bright lights that "did well on the tests" really internalized all that stuff they glossed over in the history books, or grasped the implications. A detail you should have remembered and paid attention to? That the New York Times once had to mount Gatling guns on their office buildings, there in New York. That's how bad the draft riots got, when they decided to put newly-arrived Irish immigrants right into the regiments fighting the Civil War. Americans are capable of a lot more insurrection, riot, and just plain old vicious horror than you might like to fantasize, and the day is approaching when our "elite" is going to find that out the hard way.
The stupid bastards have complained about the nation being "ungovernable" several times in my lifetime. They have no idea just how bad "ungovernable" can get, but they seem hell-bent on finding out the hard way.
"The difference between the NYC subway and the London Underground is striking. Aggressive, ranting people are not allowed on the Underground or in the buses. Feels significantly safer."
I never felt uncomfortable on any mass transit in Japan.
Not even for a single second.
Something I attribute to pride, which we as a country, seem to have lost...
n.n said...
"Neely suffered from a preexisting condition that was triggered by a restraint. "
Link please.
I can find nothing indicating this to be true.
Have you noticed that OUR media lies to us, and we only hear the truth from foreign news sources that don't have the same narrative as the WH, the Intel agencies, the Congress and our media??
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12060821/Panicked-passengers-multiple-calls-911-Jordan-Neely-died.html
Mutaman said...
n.n said...
"Neely suffered from a preexisting condition that was triggered by a restraint. "
You don't do satire well, do you?
Kind of a prude. Aren't you.
Mr. Neely's demise falls somewhere in the middle of the "Fuck around and find out " scale.
Those types of shenanigans never work out well.
Correction
"A Subway Killing Stuns, and Divides, The New York Times, not New York Subway Riders."
Daniel12 said...
The "political narrative" is that you cannot defend yourself on the subway ?
The political narrative is that you can kill someone on the subway who is bothering you.
The lie is that he was "bothering" the people on the subway
The truth is that he was loudly threatening to physically attack them
But you knew that, which is why you told the lie
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