In court, the government will have to introduce evidence that the threats it is addressing are real, not merely conjectural, and that the proposed ban would address those threats. The evidence assembled so far is not likely to be sufficient. All of this will no doubt be frustrating to some policymakers.... But the legitimacy of our democracy depends on the free trade of information and ideas, including across international borders. Except in the most extreme circumstances, citizens should be able to engage freely with the communications platforms of their choice.
Jaffer goes into some detail about how the First Amendment applies even though TikTok is owned by a Chinese corporation. Basically, the Americans using it have a right to receive information, including information from foreign sources. And Jaffer minimizes the notion that the Chinese government could use TikTok to acquire data about Americans, because China can easily buy this data from data brokers. Where's the narrow tailoring in shutting down TikTok?
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29 comments:
The Regime is blatantly corrupt. Nobody supports this.
Everyone knows the DC globalist Regime is functionally no different in goals and desires than the Chinese Regime.
There is no difference between CCP/Tik Tok and US Government/Facebook/Google.
The problem is not just the globalist billionaires that support this. It is the mostly upper middle class rich white people in the laptop class as well.
Don't ban Tik Tok. Use it against itself. Undermine it.
"Except in the most extreme circumstances, citizens should be able to engage freely with the communications platforms of their choice."
I suspect "extreme" is defined differently depending on who is restricted.
How would banning Tik Tok be any different than the comic book code, or FCC regulations?
I know we could say this about a lot of items in our culture, but taking the spyware out of the equation, wouldn’t the US be 1000x better off, if 1/3 of our population wasn’t guzzling down vapid, addictive, time wasting horseshit?
Our government used to criticize the Soviet Union for jamming the signals of Voice of America.
Our government regularly, today, criticizes China, Iran, and Russia for putting up firewalls on the internet.
One can't square this circle, no matter how hard one tries to. It is blatant hyprocrisy on our part. There was article on Real Clear Politics yesterday stating that the Department of Homeland Security "seems" to have dismantled the Misinformation Board that the Biden Administration tried to create. "Seems" is the right word- I guarantee you they have created it and are now hiding it from public view.
"But the legitimacy of our democracy depends on the free trade of information and ideas, including across international borders. Except in the most extreme circumstances, citizens should be able to engage freely with the communications platforms of their choice."
Sounds like enabling of foreign interference in "our democracy".
Trump Twitters while others bray domestic and foreign intrigue, equitable, and inclusive.
Yeah, and The Forth Amendment should be a problem for a lot of things being done in the name of national security...
Don't get me wrong, I don't give a shit what happens to the damn vile commies. That ban-hammer isn't going to come down on them. It will come down on us.
“ How would banning Tik Tok be any different than the comic book code, or FCC regulations?”
Surely you jest.
Broadcasting is inherently different because regulation is needed for the airwaves to work!
And the comic book code wasn’t government regulation.
FINALLY!!!!!
Someone brings up the First Amendment in relation to TikTok.
I brought it up a week or two ago in a comment thread on a TikTok ban post. Crickets.
The more I think about this, the more I think the hoorah about TikTok is strictly about money. That is, the $7billion (or whatever it is) of advertising dollars that TikTok is getting and Google/FB/Twitter/Insta et al are not.
And what about politicians? How much money have politicians, on both sides, gotten from Google et al? how much from TikTok?
Lobbyists? How much does TikTop spend on lobbyists? How much do the others?
I keep hearing national security invoked, I don't hear much if anything about how TikTok endangers or even affects national security. It's not like Voice o America where they are blasting propaganda 24/7. Pretty much everything seen on TikTok is generated by Americans. Most by teenage girls it seems. If it is propaganda at all it seems like pro-American propaganda showing mainly the basic goodness and decency of Americans and AMerican life.
They are collecting information? So what? So they know I like cookie dough ice cream, Nevil Shute and drive a Hyundai. None of that is secret and none of it matters who knows it.
If there is a natsec issue with TikTok could someone explain, either here or by pointing me to a link, how?
Yes, I know it is controlled by the Chinese govt and that they have access to a lot of data collected and yadda, yadda, yadda. What I am asking is why is this a problem? Especially why is it a natsec problem.
John Henry
One other reason the USG is against TikTok.
We have seen from the Twitter files coming out that various govt agencies have embedded people to control the flow of information. Who gets to post and who doesn't. What can be posted and what can't.
They can't do that with TikTok. Or at least it is a lot harder.
John Henry
Blogger TeaBagHag said...
I know we could say this about a lot of items in our culture, but taking the spyware out of the equation, wouldn’t the US be 1000x better off, if 1/3 of our population wasn’t guzzling down vapid, addictive, time wasting horseshit?
Absolutely. I agree 100%.
But that is MY decision to make, not yours. So, to the the extent that you are one of these people who wants to tell me how to live my life (I don't think you are but just in case) Fuck the fuck off.
John Henry
“Broadcasting is inherently different because regulation is needed for the airwaves to work!”
But the emf waves will still propagate from the antenna if modulated with the F word as well as any other word. Carlin’s seven words were banned by a violation of the first amendment. Or an exception to the first amendment that permitted banning based on obscenity.
Presuming TikTok doesn't have a clear opening to the DoD, State, Etc, what's the problem? Sorry, I know that's a ridiculous presumption, but run with it.
What's the problem? If Xi's minions know all about me, so what? I can be blackmailed and threatened and whatnot with considerably less technical means by people closer to home. They don't have to run my grandsons' locations through Beijing in order to know how to threaten them, do they, if I fail to do their bidding?
According to the TV ads, my home can be sold out from under me before I notice. So what's China going to do that's worse?
What am I missing?
Are they going to order a Ma Deuce to be delivered from Amazon and then tell the ATF on me?
Daydreaming for a moment here....
I had a client whose three-year old daughter could order stuff from Amazon and, to my amazement, I found they actually have a telephone number where these issues can be straightened out.
What am I missing?
Walter Sobchak : Oh please, dear? For your information, the Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint.
The problem with TikTok is the same as the problem with Amazon, Google, Facebook and most other sites. They use the users as a product, rather than treating users as humans with rights.
Tik Tok has the added, very serious problem of data mining quite directly under Chinese law for the CCP, not just corporate HQ. Any connection to the CCP should be a disqualifier for any company to operate in the US, to own any US stock, land, or business interests, or to have any long term legal residency. Down with the CCP, up with the Chinese people, I say.
The issue of tik tok is simple
As expressed by a Hong Kong protestor
"[Donald Trump], no trust Chiner!
"Chiner is asshoe!"
But the legitimacy of our democracy depends on the free trade of information and ideas, including across international borders.
It doesn't including giving foreign governments special access to US individuals. Which is what is happening with TikTok
Except in the most extreme circumstances, citizens should be able to engage freely with the communications platforms of their choice.
"Communications platforms" owed by Communist Gov'ts are by definition "extreme circumstances", so we've met that requirement.
Jaffer goes into some detail about how the First Amendment applies even though TikTok is owned by a Chinese corporation. Basically, the Americans using it have a right to receive information, including information from foreign sources. And Jaffer minimizes the notion that the Chinese government could use TikTok to acquire data about Americans, because China can easily buy this data from data brokers.
Can the US gov't make a law preventing US Companies from selling such information to the CCP?
Yes, it can.
So it can therefore also prevent the CCP from buying a company that would give it that information.
I wonder how much the CCP has been paying Jameel Jaffer, the executive director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia, to be their tool?
I thought the problem with Tik Tok was its abiity to influence the users... By influencing what videos show up for them to view, the user's view of the world can be biased. A similar issue exists with internet search engines, Youtube, etc. It also exists for the "news papers" as they also affect your view of the world by what they choose to print and choose to not print.
Even knowing you are getting a skewed view of the world you can still be biased by what you view in the media. So I can see that the governments of the world would want to prevent those outside of their control from influencing the population they govern.
Of course, that doesn't give them the right, at least in this country, to suppress that influence.
Yancey Ward said...
Our government used to criticize the Soviet Union for jamming the signals of Voice of America.
Our government regularly, today, criticizes China, Iran, and Russia for putting up firewalls on the internet.
One can't square this circle, no matter how hard one tries to.
Sure we can. The issue with Tim Tok isn't the information that's coming in, it's the information that's going out.
The US Gov't isn't saying that the CCP can't have an account on Twitter where they post all their propaganda, and anyone who wants to see it can go and see it.
The US Gov't is quite correctly saying that the CCP can not own a US Company that collects information about US users, and the US Gov't is saying it won't let a non-US company owned by the CCP collect that information either.
If the result of this is the EU passing laws preventing US tech giants from collecting information about EU users, I will laugh and celebrate. And support their efforts.
Protecting Americans from foreign enemies is the JOB of the US Gov't. It's shocking when they actually try to do that, but that's what's happening here
Darkisland said...
FINALLY!!!!!
Someone brings up the First Amendment in relation to TikTok.
I brought it up a week or two ago in a comment thread on a TikTok ban post. Crickets.
That's because it's a horseshit argument. The CCP does not have a First Amendment right to own a US company that collects information about US users and ships it off to the CCP.
It is not possible for any social media company based in China / owned by Chinese to NOT do that.
Preventing them from having accounts on other people's social media systems would be a First Amendment issue. Preventing them from owning social media is not
If we're going to argue about the 1A with respect to the barring or regulation of Tik Tok, can we also discuss the 1A and discrimination laws?
Who gives a Flying Fuck?
https://www.lucianne.com/2023/03/25/unreal_emergency_motion_claims_fbi_didnt_disclose_informant_inside_proud_boys_defense_team_104929.html
Lets talk about rights, shall we?
The Constitution is for the People and "our [unPlanned] Posterity", is designed to mitigate authoritarian progress, binds the government from acts of "heroism", and other transcivil and transhumane Choices. That said, we need a "hero", a Democrat "hero", who the Fourth leg will bray and cover-up.
I don't think a ban violates the 1A because it's content-neutral. By analogy, I think the government could ban skywriting on the grounds that it's a dangerous way to communicate otherwise protected speech.
Not sure why they have to ban anything. Just do the thing the FBI does with Twitter, etc al, when it sees content that it doesn’t like. Go to Apple, Google, Microsoft and say, “We think TikTok violates your TOC. Just wanted to let you know. You can do whatever you want, but blocking TikTok from your App Stores is definitely an option. We’ll just wait over here while you go ahead and block TikTok, if you want. It’s your choice. I know what we think you should do, but we won’t make you do it. But you should.” Then it’s not a 1A violation.
If data is being ‘leaked’ through TikTok, it’s a device problem not an app problem.
stlcdr said...
If data is being ‘leaked’ through TikTok, it’s a device problem not an app problem.
The Chinese gov't requires all Chinese companies to "share" all their data with the Chinese gov't.
It's a China problem. And why there's no "First Amendment defense" protecting Chinese companies, all agents of the Chinese gov't, from being banned from America
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