Said CNN commentator Holly Thomas, quoted in "Allowing Topless Women In Germany’s Pools Is About Stopping Discrimination" (Forbes).
२२ मार्च, २०२३
"But what if breasts aren’t the problem, and are not, therefore, the issue in need of a remedy?"
"The solution, as the city of Berlin so neatly demonstrated, would be simple. In order for all bodies to be equal, we have to treat them so."
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Yeah! Go topleess! Burn your bra! It's a demonstration of your feminine strength and power. Put 'em on the glass!
As a man who has unfortunately found himself in saunas with naked Europeans my suggestion would be to cover up the saggy pasty men. Don’t add to the problem by revealing more eurobodies. Yikes.
I'm surprised this was even an issue in Germany.
40 years ago I saw people in the public parks in Heidelberg laying on the grass stark naked on a warm day.
Not hiding in the shadows. Not covered cleverly with a towel.
Just flat-out nude on the lawn...
Okay, let's see what happens when people with cameras start to take pictures.
Can't enforce special "privacy" protections for women, right?
Will this measure lack support? Will this measure bind the people to accept what they don't approve of? Will the proponents of this measure be up-front about reasons why?
In any rational world the dog toy should be safe....
"Black Label Blues" from a former musical poet laureate of Florida Gamble Rogers sometime in the late 1970's - 🎶 Here's to fear and pain and sorrow Jack Daniels if you please 🎶
https://youtu.be/_B1G6uVHa5s
islam has entered the chat
Butt seriously I’ve never found bare FEMALE breasts to be a problem.
Very few women actually want to expose their breasts in public. So, a few exhibitionists will got topless, and then post videos expressing there indignation that men are looking at them.
Two points:
The first: referring to me as a body is dehumanizing.
The second: I assume those women who choose to go topless (as well as society in general) will also understand and accept the natural reactions that will occur as a consequence of the additional em-bare-ment?
I'm all for it if the woman cannot hold a pencil beneath the breast. Saggers are not OK.
hmmm...
Then tell me, Again? Why it is that trans folk chop off their breasts?
Breasts are never the problem.
Where's the La Leche League when you need them?
Women’s sports would be a lot more popular if played topless.
So it's a easy-peasy social construct problem?
You going to deal with the resultant immigrant misunderstanding rapes the same way?
The theory in the 60s was that some women can go topless and some women can't go topless and the women who can't go topless won't let the women who can go topless go topless.
Discrimination also means being selective. Having discriminating taste means to have selective, usually good taste.
Keep 'em covered and leave something to our dull imaginations, will you? Uncover them mercilessly and yet another stick in the sexual Jenga pile will be removed, leaving us with barely anything left to our wonder. They'll begin to look more like simply mammary glands and not so much something of note to both turn on and be turned on by.
Or am I jumping to a less than happy ending?
These rules are set by women and for women. Men welcomed the bra burning movement. Men are happy to watch the show.
Women use bras to manage the tone of social encounters and limit unwanted attention. Reproduction-related displays are a prelude to mating behaviors, and boobs induce a response. This is not news. It's not discrimination at all, it's nature.
Okie dokie by me...us old geezers need some refreshing views now and then. Perks us right up!
There is nothing that cannot be justified if we decide that equality is the most important aspect of life and that we are free to define "equality" as whatever we want it to be.
But: Who is arguing against the proposal? This is not mentioned in any of the articles on this issue, that I have seen. Isn't that interesting?
It could be worse. In the name of equity they could force men to wear tops.
As a man, I applaud women's efforts to fix this discrimination.
Personally, I'm all for it.
NO MORE TAN LINES!!
Sure, why not, everybody get naked.
TOGA!
"Allowing Topless Women In Germany’s Pools Is About Stopping Discrimination"
1. What could go wrong?
2. Uncovering breasts would equalize quality?
Works for me. Yea boobs. Yea equality.
But, based on topless protestors in the news... meh.
Whatever. The Muzzies will put a stop to that right quick, is my guess. You're welcome to swim topless, as long as you don't mind being raped and beheaded by a "refugee". Talk about 20th Century problems.
Once there was good discrimination and bad discrimination. Good discrimination meant being able to understand the relevant and important differences between things: A discriminating person knew the difference between a good meal and a bad meal or the difference between a good book and a bad book. Bad discrimination meant judging things by irrelevant or biased criteria. Good discrimination was about correctly viewing the differences between things; bad discrimination lumped together unlike things for superficial or malicious reasons. Good discrimination aimed to hire only workers who worked hard and skillfully, bad discrimination did not hire able workers who were the wrong race, for example. But gradually, the idea of good discrimination has been fading. Now, most people pretty much define discrimination as only unfair discrimination, even as in their actions they necessarily and justly continue to discriminate in all sorts of ways. Of course, changing the rules to allow topless women in swimming pools is an action against discrimination, it’s just not an action against bad discrimination.
"In order for all bodies to be equal, we have to treat them so."
But the bodies of men and women aren't equal. So they shouldn't be treated as if they were.
Prediction: there will be fewer men at the pool. The ones you want to see topless are never the ones you see topless.
I am just wondering - when did all bodies become equal?
Is it because men can menstruate and get pregnant?
Is it because women can play pro football? pro basketball?
Or is it because Neo-Marxism demands that we abolish current cultural, scientific and legal standards in order to create the New Soviet Man and Woman?
What pressures do you place on the individual and what are the results to society?
It is true that requiring women to wear tops at the pool is discriminatory.
But if you actually talk this out you will find that pressuring women to act in a somewhat chaste manner actually improves their lot in society.
It is a biological imperative for all humans to notice female breasts. It changes how society works and how women are treated when they are covered or openly displayed. It changes how women are valued and how they are expected to act.
So what are your goals when you "end discrimination?"
I would prefer it if women as a group of individuals did not need laws to tell them how to make their lives better.
But that isn't the point here. A large number of women do not act in a way that is not beneficial for them long term or for women in general. The Venn diagram of women who will go topless at a pool and who will vote for a rapist like Bill Clinton will have significant overlap.
I don't think these people are trying to help women.
Finally, a solution that can bring the left and the right together.
It is the continue oppression of small breasted women by Big Bra.
Big Bra opposes women who don't need their support and align with older and large breasted women who benefit from keeping the female breast hidden so as to not find their advantages sagging in the light of day.
Hop skip and a jump to nude swimming allowed. Mark it down.
What if...and I'm stretching here...breasts do in fact excite men as sexual symbols. Is that discrimination or biology?
Breasts are not the problem. They are the solution for baby, man, and woman in her sexual fulfillment. Penises are also not the problem. Genderfication and political congruence are first-order forcings of [catastrophic] [anthropogenic] social progress (CASP).
I would vote for this.
Just sayin' . . .
Sounds good as long as there's a "no grannies" rule.
In order for all bodies to be equal, we have to treat them so
That was the prevailing attitude amongst women here in Norway when I fist came in 1980. Most younger woman and girls went topless at beaches, pools and sunbathing in the park. It was done as an expression of equal rights.
Now, very few women go topless, although it's not a big deal for the few who do. I'm not sure why there was such a shift. Perhaps some women didn't like men leering at them and others were self conscious about their bodies. It could also be the flock mentality, no one wants to stand out one way or another, so everyone changes with the trend.
Actually, it's about baiting the immigrants. Gonna be ugly.
[shrug] I agree that breasts aren't "the problem." But every culture has its taboos, and bare breasts are one of ours, so it's not so easy just to day "Breasted people, throw off your tops and your chains!" and believe that all titillation and disapproval would cease. It would take a cultural change.
Anyone who's been around Germans in a setting where they are permitted to strip down knows that they will happily do so - we used to say in our youthful European travels that Germans always had extraordinary bodies, either extraordinarily attractive or extraordinarily... not, but all were willing to be naked.
I mean, there are cultures where it's rude as anything to show the soles of your feet. And in our culture it looks uniformly ridiculous for - for example - men to wear cowboy boots with shorts (and our host's feelings about men in shorts notwithstanding, denying men shorts in a Houston summer is just cruel). You can't just wave a politically correct wand and make people's feelings about taboos go away.
I don't mind if we all, or some parts of society, want to try legalizing toplessness everywhere that men are allowed to go shirtless. But it will be unreasonable to expect an instant change in attitudes.
'Finally, a solution that can bring the left and the right together.'
And they can march together as a proud, perky pair...
Every teenage boy in America is 100% in favor of this.
Hop skip and a jump to nude swimming allowed. Mark it down.
Personally, I enjoy skinny dipping, I always have. Intellectually I know that the absence of trunks shouldn't make that big of a difference, but it does.
a few exhibitionists will got topless, and then post videos expressing there indignation that men are looking at them
Gaia's Choice... uh, choice, informs social convention with few exceptions, equity, and inclusion.
I remember some controversies not long ago in Germany and other European nations over a new-found need for women-only pool hours and educational programs to let "migrants" know that certain behaviors were not welcome at public pools and swimming areas/
I wonder how this question polls amongst Germany's 2.8 million Turks, 1.3 million Kazakhs, 850k Syrians, 300k Iraqis, 300k Afghans, 250k Iranians, 250k Moroccans, etc.
I'd like to bring everyone's attention to a related problem: Nowadays when the movie's warning advises "nudity", the nudity more often than not involves looking at the male actor's backside. Boobs are nowadays a rare treat and are stingily allotted. Where are the boobs of yesteryear? Game of Thrones wasn't so long ago, but you'll never see a series like that again....I don't know if it's that traumatic for a young, beautiful woman to expose her boobs. My guess is that it's the equivalent of some bodybuilder flexing his biceps. It's a power move, and not necessarily on the part of the producer or director. I'm saddened by the lack of boobs in R rated movies.
Germans do not, I repeat, do not follow conventional Anglo-American rules of morality when it comes to sex.
Friend of mine was out during Fasching, one year. In Hessen, which is probably the epicenter for Germans-with-sticks-up-ass. They're very rigid, very proper, and quite annoying. Until Fasching, when they apparently collectively lose their f*cking minds. My buddy went out, found himself a congenial young femme, and went home with her. Following morning, he awakens alone in bed, finds himself some pants, and wanders down to where he hears some noise in the house. He is a little shocked to find his partner from the evening making breakfast... For him, her husband, and the kiddies. Husband is a big, beefy type, about twice the mass of my friend. Zero signs of anything negative about the whole thing. There's a plate set for him, and in a state of shock, he sits down and has breakfast with the family. At some point, the kids need taking care of, and he's left alone with the husband, who apparently doesn't speak fluent English the way the wife does. Husband leans over, nudges him, and says something to the effect of "My wife? She f*cks good, huh?" while giving him a sh*t-eating grin.
I'd have written this whole thing off to a fairy tale this guy told me, but there were a couple of corroborating details that make me think it was essentially true. One, he was in total shock that morning, coming back to the barracks. Second thing was, he and I went out to look things over that same night, and ran into her again, with hubby and kids. They recognized him, greeted him, and were extremely friendly. My friend was totally taken aback, and in a state of shock. I don't think he left the barracks again for several months after that, totally terrified of the German public at that point.
You'd also run out into the parks during the summer, to find German women sunbathing wearing nothing but the skimpiest of monokinis and even totally nude, on their lunch hours. Then, you'd run into the same girl at a shop somewhere, and it'd be a little... Awkward. At least, for we Americans.
The sexual mores and values in Germany ain't at all what you'd encounter here in the US.
This controversy is kind of ironic. In the summertime in Munich there are so many topless sunbathers in the Englisher Garden that one can walk from from the West side of it to the East side without stepping on anything but bare breasts, but a few uncovered boobs in a swimming pool is a scandal in Berlin?
A few years ago, there was an issue in Germany about people getting on street cars naked because they didn't hav any money with them. I've forgotten how that turned out.
Maybe they still do.
Sounds great, my daughter still wouldn't do it. Don't be too po'd when you get oogled however.
Woman in her 20s pointing to her eyes
"Hey! Eyes up here!"
Woman in her 60s pointing to the center of her chest
"Hey! Eyes up here!"
>>Oso Negro said...
Women’s sports would be a lot more popular if played topless.
Too many black eyes.
Prediction: there will be fewer men at the pool. The ones you want to see topless are never the ones you see topless.
Yep. It's been my observation the people who choose public nudity are the last people who should be nude in public.
PB said...
"Prediction: there will be fewer men at the pool. The ones you want to see topless are never the ones you see topless."
In more ways than one. Way back in '89, I was in Tahiti. A crewmate and I went to the beach, and there was a topless 20-something down the beach walking into the serf. Cool. Later at a resort hotel bar, there were topless women around the pool, maybe 40-somethings, as I was mid-20s at the time. Over roasted, with their breasts, uhm, relaxed. Cool, but not tantalizing. Then two girls, say 12 or 13 yrs old. Not little girls who might be topless, or older teens who might be "being free". Just a couple early puberty teenyboppers, topless. Then they walked back by as they left, I assume after consulting with a mom. It was then I realized I was not in the Bible-Belt anymore. And in a place where women went topless, you would see even girls at that vulnerable age dressed like that.
So the question is, is a shirtless 12 yr old girl the same as a shirtless 12 yr old boy? It in such non-adult areas we should consider the efficacy of rules.
Will all German bodies be equally compelled to take up arms against, say, Russia?
And not in an on paper sort of way but in an oh shoot were going to have to take six figure casualties sort of way, distribute the body bags equally sort of way.
Bare breasts? Eyes up here. n-th wave feminism sympathetic with social moderate causes.
Curious George said...
"Sounds good as long as there's a "no grannies" rule."
Don't discriminate, George. Learn to take the pointers with the setters. All boobs need a chance.
"The Venn diagram of women who will go topless at a pool and who will vote for a rapist like Bill Clinton will have significant overlap."
There's a real problem with no solution
Slut Walk, the sequel, because the first one wasn't cancelled for reasons of low ratings, cognitive dissonance, and psychiatric dysphoria.
Deny your sex, deny your gender, deny the opposite sex, and you will no longer be a woman.
My wife and I vacation in Europe whenever we can, now that I am retired. Yes, nudity is pretty common there, on beaches and in parks. My experience is that the vast majority of people who decide to shed their clothes there are people who you do NOT want to see topless or nude. The really attractive and sexy ones keep their clothes on, at least to some discrete degree.
I didn't know that topless bathing was against German law, and I lived there for 10 years. I saw topless women many times, at least twice at a swimming pool. Hmmm. Come to think of it, they weren't actually IN the pool. They were, however, frequently seen at lakeside beaches.
Women have been legally allowed to go topless in public in New York City since 1992, but from my experience you never see topless women walking around really. I’ve only seen it at the beach. I’ve heard of one woman I know who has gone out in public topless, but it must have been a very rare occurrence because I never once saw her topless.
"The Venn diagram of women who will go topless at a pool and who will vote for a rapist like Bill Clinton will have significant overlap."
Trans-sectional religion.
Everyone wants the "right" to do everything. That does not mean they are going to do it.
Blogger Michael K said...
I'm all for it if the woman cannot hold a pencil beneath the breast.
--
Great converstation starter.
There's a 30 something gal in Madison who apparently speaks topless near capitol, when warm weather.
I met her at Tony's election night gathering but she was strategically covered. Claims to work in the judicial system at some level, allowing her to know her rights at work (yes) and on the street.
I wish I had been armed with the pencil hold challenge.
Amanda Bynes was found wandering naked, presumably because of psychotic break or giving back to society.
As appealing women going topless is, I think I'd prefer a ban on uncovered manboobs if we're going for equal treatment in this area.
Anyone want to bet on:
* how many more Muslim men will be going to Berlin swimming pools?
* how many more German women will be followed home and sexually assaulted?
Watch how the rubber (not that kind) meets the Autobahn.
On a beach in the south of France, maybe it was at Nice, I saw lots of topless women looking pretty droopy--except for one pretty girl surrounded by young guys.
They reminded me of iron filings clustered at the poles of a magnet.
If "all bodies are equal", how come that never happens with young men?
Blogger Michael K said...
"I'm all for it if the woman cannot hold a pencil beneath the breast."
Orrrr. Carry a card table without using her hands. There are so many fun avenues this can take.
"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of ______ is to stop discriminating on the basis of _______."
Anything else is simply trying to get your group's fork in the pie and to exclude other forks.
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