"I'm a Canadian living in the US.... In a perfect world, I'd see my extended family at Christmas, but for the last few years I've tried to schedule 'Christmas adjacent' visits. My mom and extended family already have lots of distractions over the holidays and the quality of my time with them is better if I come before or after. The main reason for that scheduling, however, are the frustrations described in this article. And let's not even start in on the Southwest debacle. Commenters point out that good rail service would often be a great option -- but it will never, ever happen here. The author, as a New Yorker, is understandably not a car owner. But most Americans who can afford to fly also own cars. I am increasingly open to replacing plane trips with car rides. What with crowded airports, angry TSA agents, 28" seat pitch, etc, almost any air travel amounts to a wasted day, so if I can drive it -- even if it takes an entire day -- that's now my choice."
Writes Mark Gardiner, of Lawrence KS, in the comments section to the NYT article "The Airlines Know They Are Scamming Us." The article is written by Elizabeth Spiers.
I've long preferred the car ride — even if takes all day — to dealing with airlines and airports and airplanes. As for trains, it's just absurd the fantasizing about trains going on in the comments over there. The top comment is: "Trains. High speed, comfortable, trains on non-cargo hauling tracks, like we have in Europe. Lace the USA with those instead of citizen-funded highways built to benefit the auto industry."
That commenter is from Paris, France. To that person, I say:
Lace... indeed.
পোস্টগুলি
১০০টি মন্তব্য:
That map says all that needs to be said, but for overkill, a map showing comparative population density would be nice.
Agree completely on fly v. drive debate. Pre-retirement, the drive would have to be more than 5 hours before I'd consider flying. Now retired, it would have to be more than 2 nights on the road, or urgent and last minute.
Lawrence KS has Amtrak service to Chicago and Los Angeles at 5am and midnight respectively.
Europeans are frauds talking about train travel particularly when compared to air travel. Look at European short hop air flights any morning with an app like Fightradar24. The sky is jammed with flights.
I’ve been to Paris, Texas. I stopped there on my way back from Tyler, Texas. Omaha to Tyler was the furthest I have ever driven, but it made sense.
Any trip that I can do in 10 hours or less is by car now.
A reminder, in the US, trains are for freight not people.
Car, bus and planes are the best options in our large, sparsely populated country.
When we’re done attempting self driving - and we will get it close but not close enough for it to be as safe as we’ll need it - we will realize that the answer is to make the road “smarter” (not the car smarter) and have the road tell the car where it is instead of the car try to figure it out by looking at the visuals. And then the interstates will essentially turn into rails. Our cars will go down to I 90 or I 80 and will hook into a chassis that will be powered by electricity on a rail and will travel high speed to the designated exit. This is what Bob Lutz has been envisioning and advocating.
Trains are obsolete, 19th century technology. They're fine in places with existing, expensive infrastructure like the UK. The problem is there are ten US states alone bigger than the UK.
The bulk of the US population is clustered along the coasts, and those in the north are moving south at a rapid clip. The only currently economical rail zones include the Boston to DC corridor (which already has functional rail, many commuter buses, etc.), and potentially California. Well, California just dropped billions on a braindead high speed rail system that goes from nowhere to nowhere and that cannot technically deal with the earthquake-prone mountains between Los Angeles and the northern 2/3rds of the state.
Instead of rail, lace all of California with marijuana brownies and they'll all get the munchies, take naps, and forget the topic. Then when they wake up they'll go back to looting and smashing car windows to steal smartphones. It's a living.
Amusing California rail doom and gloom from the lefty The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/29/california-high-speed-rail-bullet-train
Yes, that’s an excellent answer. The northeast corridor could be well served by rail but daces the insurmountable problem of the turf wars of a bunch of different corrupt governments.
I love how many of the commenters in this NYT piece call for increased government regulation in order to improve customer service.
Have they even noticed the customer service provided by government.
As a retired airline pilot, my threshold of pain for flying is more than a 2 day drive. So far, I have done that once since my retirement in 2005. Despite all the issues of driving, it is pleasant to actually see everything I watched from 35000 feet, and never, ever have to deal with the TSA "agents."
When Southwest Airlines started, it just did flights in Texas.
In thirty years of travel for work, including a 3 year stretch after 9/11 in which I got up at 3:30am every Monday to make a 6:30Am flight. I'm over it. Even before the pandemic, I disliked being smashed together in an aluminum Petri dish at 35,000'. Set the cruise & drive. Retired in April & even with 250,000 miles left in my AA account, I can't think of any place I want to go bad enough to go through TSA & get on a plane. Seven hour drive was my work limit. Now there is none.
My first flight was on a DC-3 with linen napkins & silverware, & everyone dressed in a suit or dress. Downside was a guy standing beside the engines with a fire extinguisher.
Now it's pajamas & flip flops. My last flight for work, I saw a guy go in the plane restroom in his sock feet. gak
Rant over
hard for me to imagine WHY i would take Any flight to somewhere i could reach in a days car ride.
Between going to airport/tsa/waiting in line/flight/getting rental.. That is a FULL day in hell.
The last two times i went to San Diego, i Drove... That added an extra full day each way..
It was STILL better as Colorado is pretty
Of late, we looked into taking a train from SE Michigan to Tucson AZ. The actual hours of in-seat time is almost identical to time spent driving. Sure, the trip will take at least s days longer, but even with hotels and fuel it's less expensive for 2 people compared to a sleeping compartment on Amtrak. Plus, we get to see parts of the country we've never visited at a more relaxed pace.
Those very long-distance bombing runs to Berlin in WWII? Turns out LHR to BER is 599 air miles; Seattle to San Francisco (SE - SFO) is only a 80 miles longer.
Airports are the new bus stations, and no one waxes nostalgic about taking the bus.
Highways are multipurpose compared to a dedicated passenger rail line. Military movements - the federal government interest that enabled the interstate system, movement of goods, and individual and group passenger movement all reliably co-exist on that network. It's not to help the car companies, it's to help their *customers* - the people. Train people are so tiresome.
I don't have too much problem with the airlines - they're doing generally a good job in a complicated and fluid environment. Yes, the service is generally poorer than it was before deregulation, but those prices were first-class tier prices to support that level. The biggest frustrations are generally government imposed, such as TSA.
"Trains are for hauling freight and communists." - David Burge
Americans love the freedom of driving their own cars. I know, I know- the current youthful generations are not so inclined. They love to live in the cities, borrow or share cars, use public transportation if they are willing to risk being gutted or tossed onto train tracks, or Uber. Mostly Uber. They don't even get cars. And this is where the Trains for All movement lives.
Once they grow up, and realize that life in the city comes with a lot of city bullshit that used to seem cute or 'just part of the day, man', is now dangerous, tiresome, and frankly- getting on their nerves. So they move to the suburbs and there...they'll need a car. And some of them will find that by owning a car, they can to anywhere, at any time, with no issues. Unless, of course, they go for the electric car, which would cut down their freedom of distance and available routes. They'll learn.
Some of us are old enough to remember Chevrolet's old tagline/ad jingle: "See the USA in your Chevrolet..." We wuz born to ride.
While the US and Europe are considered (by most!) to be equivalent western countries, they are, indeed, very different countries.
I’ll add that I grew up in the UK and used public transportation to get around. I didn’t see anything wrong with it. Until I emigrated to the US. Traveling using your own car is far better than European-style public transportation. If I didn’t think so, I’d move back to Europe (or the Uk), somewhere.
While it’s an annoying trope, ‘if it’s so much better over there, why don’t you move there?’. But there is an element of seriousness: I would really like to see a coherent argument for or against this premise. Anecdotally, I moved to a superior country, why can’t you? (these statements that X country is, or does it, so much better annoys me).
"I'm a Canadian living in Kansas, in a perfect world I'd see my extended family at Christmas..."
In a perfect world he'd be living in Canada rather than Kansas.
I'd prefer long distance travel by train over car, if those are the only two choices.
I barf whenever I see an article beginning with ...
"I'm a ..."
I like flying, it still amazes me. But once you get where you're going, you still need a car to get around, so that argues for driving if you can do it in a day.
I enjoy driving...zippin' along in my chariot of the gods...look out! Here I come...Vroom!...There I go...in a luxurious chair, with a warm breeze or a cool breeze, music, books, beautiful scenery flowing past, my true love at my side...How can you not love every minute of it?
And the icing on the cake is knowing those Frenchman, not all of whom are French, hate that I get to do it. HaHA! Fuck you, Frenchmen! This is America!
How far can you get from Lawrence, Kansas in a long day’s drive? Albuquerque, San Antonio, Atlanta, Cleveland, or Winnipeg. If you push it, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, or the Mexican border. If 8 hours is your maximum, Dallas, Denver, Minneapolis, Chicago, or Memphis.
It is farther from Los Angeles to Boston than it is from Madrid to Moscow. Just sayin'
I've long preferred the car ride — even if takes all day — to dealing with airlines and airports and airplanes.
Secretary Pete will be using his vacation time to come over and have a talk with you.
I wouldn't say that trains will never be a reality here, what with fuel prices and population density both set to rise through Biden's policies. There's a double nostalgia behand the enthusiasm for trains -- nostalgia for the glory days of railroading, and nostalgia for the years when America was doing the big public works and construction projects, rather than seeing them done overseas. There's a nostalgia for the big plans and ideas of the future that we used to have, but I wouldn't rule out a bullet train over here, if not a network "lacing" the country.
In South America, I'm told, air travel is an even larger share of long-distance travel because of the geographical obstacles. As countries in Africa grow more affluent, the world may see air travel become more, rather than less common.
About Secretary Pete, though: all that education and he's as shallow and inept and insipid as a character in Love, Actually.
"Commenters point out that good rail service would often be a great option"
Seriously, are they talking about Amtrak?
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”
― Ringo Starr
"Commenters point out that good rail service would often be a great option"
Seriously, are they talking about Amtrak?
“Everything government touches turns to crap.”
― Ringo Starr
High speed rail lines are pretty darn soft targets for terrorists (domestic and otherwise).
The problem with trains is the people that read the NYT's are upper class snobs that would never be seen with people who ride trains.
Southwest failed because they tried to use a Point to Point model of flight planning vs. Hub and Spoke.
The lure of Point to Point is that there are no connecting flights or layovers.
But the problem is that this leaves all of your planes and your pilots spread out and distributed unevenly across the country.
With Hub and Spoke most of your planes and your pilots are in 2 or 3 central locations and thus your system is much more resilient. If a pilot or the baggage handlers or a plane fail at your hub each piece has back up that can be easily filled in.
With Point to Point if a pilot calls in sick or the maintenance crew calls in sick you have much less room to call in replacements. If a plane is shut down for maintenance you don't have other planes in the area to back it up.
Southwest tried something and it failed.
The worst thing that can happen now is to have Pete Buttigieg try to fix it.
Yeah he is a fucking idiot and a complete tool but attacking him for not doing something about this is really stupid.
Republicans are falling into a trap doing this.
I want Buttigieg to go on vacation 365 days a year. Obviously it would be better to cut the size of whatever department he is in and fire him but that is not where we are right now because people in the political sphere are more worried about attacking the other side than fixing the system that caused the problem.
I lived in west germany for a few years. The population density is why trains and subways work there. That was in the 80's. Colorado, where I came from had 1/60th the number of people. I had never seen a Stau where people parked and had time for a picnic until I traveled the A5 autobahn during holidays.
One advantage Europe had in building those rail networks was that the 8th Air Force blew up most of the existing lines between 1943 and 1945. They didn't have much need for freight traffic in the years they were rebuilding either.
American train-fetishists are the smooth-brains of the logistics world. Literally New Yorkers and DCers that extend their familiarity with urban rail links to a national system.
You dumb mothertruckers...your precious subways and Chicago L have serious problems now. Solve those before you build billion-dollar tracks to nowhere anywhere else in the country. Remove the log in your own eye...
The legacy of Tom Ridge (R-RINO) lives on in the form of TSA colonoscopies every time you board an aluminum tin can. Israel is quite different.
We never fly unless it's an imperative emergency that we arrive soon. It is a top ten worst experience even when everything goes smoothly. Living on the eastern seaboard in a tiny northeast Florida town with an antique two century old building and platform we have just down the street access Amtrak and where ever it's rails wander. Almost reasonable are prices for the little private sleeper roomettes with toilet for two appx $500-$600 to NYC. Time read, drink wine, and other fun adult pastimes. For travel out west we have a hippie van (NOT a Van-life fake RV) that we can use to stay in State Parks across America and then hole up in inexpensive motels on the weekends in far away American places. Using my Planet Fitness card we can shower and park in the parking lot at night if needed. The Meade family pick up truck camper is perfect what we do. You can never fly to the Valley of the Gods but you can drive and camp there.
Europe and the U.S. have viewed railroads differently. In the U.S. 43% of freight is moved by rail while in Europe only 10% does. Passenger rail might seem romantic to some but freight rail does the heavy lifting. I prefer the U.S. model.
"crowded airports, angry TSA agents, 28" seat pitch, etc, almost any air travel amounts to a wasted day, so if I can drive it -- even if it takes an entire day -- that's now my choice."
As a generalization, this is absurd. Example of recent Christmas travel: airports only moderately crowded, security lines moving quickly and agents friendly, no time really wasted since airport and airplanes enabled quiet reading and catching up on old TV series. Uber/Lyft to and from airports: couldn't be easier.
"Trains. High speed, comfortable, trains on non-cargo hauling tracks, like we have in Europe."
As a generalization, this is also absurd. Example from travel earlier this year: completely packed low-speed trains in UK, standing room only, people dealing with repeated strikes, one line to airport blocked entirely due to tree on tracks; small EU country trains almost equally packed, dealing with multiple service disruptions for technical and labor reasons, "fast" intercity trains less than 100 miles per hour on average.
One comparison from my own experience: Driving from Zurich to Amsterdam takes about half the time it takes to drive across Texas on I-10.
The article’s author is doubtless someone who complains when a plane is half an hour late. She could easily have flown to Atlanta and taken the bus from the airport to Montgomery. But she is a New Yorker and it is more satisfying to complain.
For the hell of it I have taken the sleeper to DC from Atlanta. Including time to the airport, the flight itself and transportation into DC, all in the trip is four hours. The train is 12 and the roadbed so poor that sleep on the narrow bed is impossible. The sleeper cabin mercifully insulates the traveler from the coach passengers. Even our vaunted fast train from DC to NY is not fast.
Passenger rail carries about three-tenths of one percent of intercity traffic in the U.S. across all modes. It's not a mode of transportation. It's an amusement park ride.
Commercial flying has become the Trailways Bus Line with wings.
"Non-cargo hauling tracks" is all they have in Europe where only about 5 percent of freight ever moves by rail. In the US it's about 60 percent.
For another comparison, Germany is about the size of Wisconsin and southern Minnesota. The population of Germany is 83 million.
I drive to California when we visit family. Round trip is about 1100 miles. I don't min d driving if I can use cruise control and listen to audio books. For that reason I usually take the I-8 from Tucson to Orange County. It is exactly the same mileage using the I-10 but I-10 is a heavy truck route. When I fly, such as to Chicago, we take Southwest. I have always liked their service but it seems that management has eroded like every other management in the US. That frequent trip/short turnaround was not going to work in bad weather. They should have scaled back on reservations for December and January. Much good will has been lost but good will in any activity this year has been hard to find.
hahahahahahaha
So our lil Frenchie friend wants an entirely new system including brand new "non-cargo" tracks and comfortable seating and somehow will not ever encounter the kind of disruptions that air travel is prone to and in urban areas won't instantly fill up with street people and junkies and can be built somehow without finding a piece of Native American pottery or a spotted salamander every mile which will bring everything to a screeching halt and we will find the $100,000,000,000,000 that this would cost in the couch cushions?
Have adult humans always been this utterly stupid? Like, making me wonder how a person this clueless earns a living stupid? I'm genuinely asking. Is this a new thing?
Mining Cobalt - the real story.
There's a whole lot of 'empty' in the US of A.
Japan has the best transit system on earth, but only because it's a very small country.
That and Japanese...
The US has one of the best rail systems in the world, but we use it for moving cargo, not people. The railroad companies are profitable enough to spend a billion dollars to cut a half-hour off the time it takes to get trains out of Los Angeles.
Fredrick said...
One advantage Europe had in building those rail networks was that the 8th Air Force
People Rarely give credit for all the great urban renewal work done by the 8th and 20th Air Forces in Europe and Japan
I adore driving long distances - nowhere is too far for me, given that I have enough time, which is handy since I live in south Texas and it takes a solid day+ to even get out of my own state.
And yet my family is full of aviation fanatics. I love everything about flying; I love the airport concourses, I love the overhead announcements, I love striding into the building pulling my bag, I love that one of my kids had flown 75 segments by her third birthday, I love the sound of jet engines, I love being in the air, I love hearing the 10,000 feet bell (it's my text chime as a matter of fact), I absolutely fucking love the moment when the pilot hits the gas on taxi to accelerate to liftoff speed, I love all of it. Saw a plane on final descent into the airport near my house yesterday and felt a sense of longing as I haven't flown since May. Husband sits on our airport board. Daughter got a menial job at the airport while she's finishing her senior year of college so that she can just be there and watch all the operations and talk to flight and ground crews and soak it all up. She's going to flight school to become a commercial pilot as soon as she pays off her undergrad loans. She's wanted to since she was a little girl. One of the top 5 experiences of my life will be the first time she flies me somewhere. I can't wait.
Nice visual denoting scale.
I've met a good number of furriners who have no clue about that.
2 out of 3 trips to Paris was unable to get train for daytrips outside because of strikes. Nothing slower than a parked train.
When I did take it, it was very nice and mostly empty.
I guess plenty of subsidy available with no real military.
We live in west Michigan. Had family business in Houston in the summer. Could have flown in a longish day--airport is an hour away--presuming no delays. That includes renting a car--we'd need to be mobile while there--and getting our luggage in a timely fashion and getting to the residence in question.
We drove. Google maps says eighteen hours, but hours and hour at ten over shortens that considerably.
We packed what we wanted, stopped when we wanted, chose fast food or non-franchise restaurants, hit a couple of historical sites for a bit, went off the interstate or other high-speed surface road for a few dozen miles and some variety.
Amounted to two easy days. And, since we weren't sure how long the business would take, we were completely on our own as to returning.
Packed the car to come home, made the various stops, satisfied ourselves things were copacetic (everything is relative) and went off to Vicksburg. Arrived in the evening, did the partial tour--roads were still wiped out-- in the morning and headed home. Again, some cross lots, couple of small towns worth looking at, total two and a half interesting and easy days.
So, two and a half extra days as opposed to flying, some of which was self-indulging business which had nothing to do with travel on the way. Far more convenient. Less stressful. More enjoyable. Than flying or trains.
For once, I wish I could read an article in the NYT. Of course, it's a "guest essay", not a product of the Lying Liars Who Always Lie (TM).
What the airlines have done, is to find a way to squeeze every last penny out of each customer. And before you complain about it, recall that you always take the cheapest flight. They are only doing what it takes to get your business.
The TSA is another matter. Do you know how many terrorists the TSA has caught trying to blow up an airplane? Zero. In twenty years.
@Joe Smith wrote: "Japan has the best transit system on earth, but only because it's a very small country.
That and Japanese..."
Plus, the overwhelming majority of the Japanese live in about 1/3rd of the country along a single industrial corridor across southern Honshu island (Shimonoseki to Tokyo). The Japanese consider a trip to the northern island of Hokkaido to be dramatic and noteworthy...but the trip is only the length of California from top to bottom. They have the easiest national high speed rail route map in the world.
But the Japanese overdid it and put in all kinds of mountain transit too, because they are Japanense.
"The TSA is another matter. Do you know how many terrorists the TSA has caught trying to blow up an airplane? Zero. In twenty years."
Like the kid with the whistle that keeps elephants away.
Adult: But, kid, this is Kansas. There are no elephants here.
Kid: See how well it works......
I don't mind flying. I go back and forth between NorCal and SoCal for work. Takes me about 3 1/2 hours from my door to a hotel. Driving could be anywhere from 6-10 hours. Flying out of Oakland or Sac, I never encounter long lines. TSA bugs me, but that is a political problem. Time in the airport can be used to do paperwork.
I think many people focus on their worst experience flying and forget about all the times it was easy.
And driving is far more dangerous.
European rail isn't "all that".. Having travelled a bit in Europe it's often cheaper to FLY than take the train. That includes the hassles associated with flying. If you have a direct train it can be more convenient but not necessarily faster than flying.
This past may we wanted to go from Barcelona to Nice by rail. It would have taken a day and a half: full day to Marseille then overnight then half day to Nice. $200+/person. To fly it was a half day and $100 for both of us (including checked luggage).
And, I can promise, that electric trains still run on coal...
'The Japanese consider a trip to the northern island of Hokkaido to be dramatic and noteworthy...'
We flew to Hokkaido when we visited, and then rented a car.
That was harrowing as only my wife had an international driver's license.
We are lucky to be alive : )
Not only is driving better if the car trip is less than about 10 hours, but often you will need to rent a car on the other end if you fly—so even with the current price of gas, driving can be not just a convenience, but a substantial savings.
And that map doesn't include the issue of population density.
I find driving more than 5-6 hours too tiring, and worry about staying awake, not to mention speeding tickets, accidents. Plus it's dead time. At least on a flight I have some time to relax, read, have a bite to eat, and arrive with some energy. TSA pre-check makes getting through security almost as easy as pre-9/11. And flying is a lot safer.
I frequently go from NYC to Detroit. I drove once, it was about 10 hours of driving. I left around 9am and arrived around 8pm. Had I left at 9am for the airport I would have made it to my destination by 2pm.
But train travel outside of the NE corridor is a joke. I recall looking into a train from NYC to Detroit for my sister, who doesn't drive. I think it was about 16-18 hours. And that's if it runs on time, which is rare. Yes, it could be made better, but they lose money as it is, with the crappy service on lines rented from freight rails.
Bob Boyd says " I like flying" but...
I like flying, but only if I'm in the left seat and there are no paying passengers.
( I used to do business with a Taiwanese factory owner. Once he was visiting San Diego, and called, offering to drive up for a face-to-face. I had to remind him, Mr. Lee, it's 800 kilometers. One way. He flew home, instead.)
I grew up thinking I'd be a pilot, like my father, and had been a passenger on DC-3s and Lockheed Constellations, but I get motion sick and only endure flying without really enjoying it. Maybe it's different in the cockpit but I never found out.
That some Eurorando has no clue is not a surprise; American choochoo fetishists just parrot whatever them, usually.
If I have decent company and/or music to enjoy (no audio books) I'll drive, unless there is some good reason to fly. And I prefer renting a car in Europe, to depending on their mass transit, if I have a choice.
We used to have passenger rail in this country, before the advent of the interstate highway system and inexpensive air travel. We used to have horses before the automobile, too. Speed and convenience make slower and less convenient modes of travel obsolete except as a niche experience.
Airports are horrible. Airplane seats are horrible. Airline employees are either rude and unhelpful or polite and unhelpful. Over the past decade, every day I've spent flying has been one of the worst days of that year.
After not flying for more than a year because of the pandemic, I've been reluctant to schedule flights again. Flight statistics may be up, but that's because people need to get somewhere, not because they enjoy the experience. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot end up "quietly quitting" the airlines whenever there are other alternatives.
"The TSA is another matter. Do you know how many terrorists the TSA has caught trying to blow up an airplane? Zero. In twenty years."
Yes, this could be sacrificing a virgin to keep the dragons away, but more likely it's Fox Butterfield logic.
A queer conception inspired by the love train, forward in diversity, order, and conformance is antithetical to the American dream of liberty in self-moderation. The airplane model is a compromise in time and space.
traveling by train in UK/Europe is such a pleasure. It was so nice to take a short taxi ride to Victoria station, get on the Chunnel train to Paris, and then after a short Paris subway ride, boom! we're at our Hotel next to the Seine. No airline security. No long drives to and from the airports. No fuss, no muss.
American trains have their pluses too. I loved the train ride through the Sierras and Rockies. And I was glad I was spared the long boring drive from Des Moines to Denver. And I can just imagine how much more pleasant a train ride from DC To NYC is, compared to the drive.
OTOH, train travel simply isn't a practical alternative in most of the USA.
"So, two and a half extra days as opposed to flying, some of which was self-indulging business which had nothing to do with travel on the way. Far more convenient. Less stressful. More enjoyable. Than flying or trains."
With a car, you can go where you want, when you want and you can change your plans at the drop of a hat. Statists hate that.
Our trains indeed haul cargo. Cargo trains to be efficient need to be very long and not stop until their destination. Passenger trains are quite different and must stop frequently to accommodate passengers. The two types are not really compatible on the same tracks.
We had a visitor from Germany who said they had before not been able to grasp how big the US is.
In the U.S., 100 years is a long time.
In Europe, 100 miles is a long way.
In the U.S., 100 years is a long time.
In Europe, 100 miles is a long way.
I appreciate the Romance of the Rails as much as anyone, and when in Europe I rarely travel by any mode but train.
But those who dream that a similar network could be built anywhere in the USA are deluded. Look to the fiscal disaster that is the California high-speed rail project, and you will see the real future of American passenger rail. It may cost $100 billion for a train that really never goes anywhere useful. Imagine trying to build high-speed from, say, New York to Chicago. As someone pointed out earlier, the newts and snails and bait-fish will delay the project for 10 years. Then the pols will get their snouts into the deal, and make sure it has to serve 23 towns in between origin and destination. I'm sure there will be plenty of Idiot Joes who will demand a stop in all the Scrantons along the way.
Just extrapolating the California experience, we could spend the entire gross national product many times over and still have little to show for it. It's a fools dream, one that makes urbanites swoon but has no basis in reality.
Example of recent Christmas travel: airports only moderately crowded, security lines moving quickly and agents friendly,
What airports are you talking about? By most - if not all accounts - this was the worst Christmas travel season anyone can remember.
I'm not going to fly anywhere for any reason. All family are within a short driving distance and there is no where I wish to go that can not be easily driven. Our RV is able to be fully stocked with food for a week or more and has a restroom. Since I have no desire to travel to the northeast or far west, I can travel anywhere I want to in a couple of day's drive. I will not travel to a state that does not have concealed carry reciprocity with my own state, since I'm not leaving home without a firearm, so that limits my travel destinations as well. Within a day's drive I can visit the beach or the mountains. Why would I go through the hassle of flying?
R C Belaire said...
"Of late, we looked into taking a train from SE Michigan to Tucson AZ. The actual hours of in-seat time is almost identical to time spent driving. Sure, the trip will take at least s days longer, but even with hotels and fuel it's less expensive for 2 people compared to a sleeping compartment on Amtrak. Plus, we get to see parts of the country we've never visited at a more relaxed pace."
Our first cross country train trip was on the Southwest Chief from Chicago to L.A. We rode in a "roomette," barely wider than coach seating, with oddly spaced steps from floor level to a fold-down bunk. Downsides: the door to the room locks from the inside, but not from the outside, so if you're counting on it to protect your valuables, forget it. We did leave the room on a couple of occasions to get dinner in the dining car, but otherwise we took turns. I had the upper bunk which had a belt contraption to keep you in, if perchance the train would lurch from side to side, which it did. The cost for a roomette is about $1,400 for two people; a private room with toilet is about twice that. The private rooms don't lock from the outside either.
On our subsequent trips, we rode coach, and the seats were the same kind as in the roomette. Nights on the train were blessedly quiet (both on the Southwest Chief and the Capitol Limited) and the cost was about $250 each back in 2015, probably a bit more now, but still very affordable. I love driving, but in cases where I'd have to leave our car in a parking garage for a week, say, while on an Alaska cruise, I'd just as soon ride the train to the departure port and take a taxi or rental car while waiting for the ship.
I haven't flown anywhere in over 11 years- the last time I flew was from Knoxville to Boston (I had left my truck with my sister's place so that I could drive my father home in his truck). Flying out of Knoxville is always a piece of cake, and when I lived in CT, flying out of Hartford was really easy, too. I guess my worse experience with flying was my luggage got lost once on a flight to Fresno, but it showed up a few hours later at my hotel.
I have traveled pretty extensively by train in Europe- they are nice, but they aren't quick- driving was faster in most cases, even there. I don't mind long trips driving in the US, unless I am on I-95, or in Southern California. I used to make the trip from western CT to Oak Ridge, TN a couple of times a year- 900 miles, in about 13 hours most of the time- only once or twice did it take longer than that, and those times were due to poor weather along the way.
John Mulaney, if you haven't seen his bit...
Delta Airlines is Evil
Is it fair to compare him to Johnny Rotten and the Sex Pistols? It reminds of their song EMI, which was a very specific attack on a record company. Mulaney is making a very specific attack on an airline. (Also, he does a spit!)
It's the anger underneath the bit that makes it really funny, I think.
People bitched when the gummint started building infrastructure and effectively subsidizing those ugly, dangerous steamboats; they bitched when the gummint started doing the same for those ugly, dangerous railroads, and when it was the turn of the auto, people bitched. Especially those affiliated with or accustomed to the previous tech.
Of course, it's great to have a nice modern subway/train system like those in Vienna, Munich, Paris, and Berlin to name those I've used. Also NYC long ago.
But our cities are as spread out as the country is, and those limited-reach networks don't make sense here except where they already exist.
Unless . . . unless . . . let's build a Monorail!
Althouse once blogged about that time that Mulaney invited Chappelle up on stage with him, and suggested that was a bad thing to do.
I would suggest that Chappelle and Mulaney and all the other stand-up comics are incredibly brave, and they are maybe the only ones in our mass media landscape fighting the war on the Woke. Good for them!
And frankly I think it's the comics who are scared. I've heard numerous comics say that won't do college campuses anymore, including Jerry Seinfeld who is hilarious and his comedy is practically G-rated.
Mulaney has a lot of funny bits and I think he's somewhere on the spectrum between Seinfeld and Chappelle.
Many years ago, Mulaney did this routine in San Francisco. So, yes, he wants to help out Chappelle if at all possible. But he also wants to protect his own stand-up career and his right to try to be funny.
Could he do that routine that he did in San Francisco in 2009 today? I doubt it.
Does anybody actually believe that if all the people now travelling by plane switched over to trains, that the TSA wouldn't follow them and turn their rail experience to something pretty much exactly like their current flight experience, except longer?
From Why People Don't Use Mass Transit (written in 2005)...
Europe Leads The Way
Europeans use mass transit far more than Americans because of the high population density, and dense and long-established transit systems. So how transit-friendly is Europe?
A Eurail Select Pass for five countries and ten days of rail travel is $748. That's $1500 for two people. I found a Volkswagen Passat (midsize) for ten days for $672. Toss in another $400 for gas and it's $1072. You do the math.
"What airports are you talking about? By most - if not all accounts - this was the worst Christmas travel season anyone can remember"
Phoenix was one. Crazy for Southwest customers, easy for everyone else. TSA was experimenting with dogs, so all luggage went through security in mere minutes, no need to take off anything even for non pre-check passengers. Drive to the airport: minutes from hotel. So, "wasted" time: next to nothing. Winter weather avoided: days' worth. And of course air travel is much safer than driving.
Worst recent experience was at a European airport (line out the door) but even very busy Heathrow was moving pretty quickly--once you were through the line and passport check in 45 minutes or so, you could just relax and enjoy yourself. Short customs wait stateside. "Wasted" time: about an hour for a transatlantic trip.
"The TSA is another matter. Do you know how many terrorists the TSA has caught trying to blow up an airplane? Zero. In twenty years."
If the public could vote on it, I think they might be willing to risk another 9/11 if it meant getting rid of the TSA.
Especially if it occurred in NY again.
I haven’t lived in Maryland for years, but when we were young the wife and I used to drive or fly out from the northern suburbs of Washington, DC, to the Chicago area to visit my extended family.
By car via the Penn, Ohio, and Indians turnpikes: 11 1//2 to 12 hours, counting stops for gas, meals, micturition and stretching our legs
By car via Interstates 70 and 65: Adds an hour or so but no tolls and gas generally a bit cheaper than turnpike rest stops
By air from BWI: 1 hour and 36 minutes, plus 45 minutes to drive to the airport, allow two hours for check-in and security, an hour at O’Hard to collect suitcase and pick up rental car, plus 45 minutes to drive to destination via toll roads — basically 6 hours.
By Amtrak from Baltimore: 19 hours (okay, 18 hours and 57 minutes) not counting time spent getting to Baltimore’s Penn Station and then getting from the Loop to the suburbs.
Trains lose.
scale - meaning
NOUN
Scale in Maths: Scale is defined as the ratio of the length of any object on a model (blueprint) to the actual length of the same object in the real world.
example: one inch to the foot, 1:12th
Comment:
Most people can't envision scale well, either by lack of practice or due to trait. This is especially true of things that you can't readily see with frequency. We have trouble understanding how big the Himalayas are and Europeans can't grasp the size of the U.S.
Story:
I had fellow mantid enthusiasts in Europe long ago and Thomas was coming to the U.S. for some sort of convention in N.Y. He phoned me when he arrived. He knew full well I live in southern Missouri.
Synopsis of convo follows:
T: Want to meet up for lunch tomorrow?
Me: Sure. How about we meet midway?
T: OK.
Me: How about Columbus, Ohio? That's about nine hours each.
A very lengthy pause.
Me: How about we just continue the email thing?
An agreement was met.
I might add that the Canadians do celebrate a Thanksgiving Day. Theirs is on the second Monday of October instead of the fourth Thursday in November, but like our own holiday the description claims that it’s a time for families to get together and got people to give thanks. Now that’s not quite the same as a “return-to-ancestral-home” but it isn’t that far off.
OTOH as far as I can tell they don’t do tacky pageants with kids dressed as pilgrims and native Americans, so there’s that.
After not flying for more than a year because of the pandemic, I've been reluctant.
"...an IFR lower than influenza..."
The damage is done.
We're in The Superstition -Zone. A goodly number of our fellow citizens have been transformed permanently into cranks.
Over the river and through the woods.......
Without reading any comments - I'm finishing Day 2 of 3 driving from Salt Lake City back to Houston (taking our time because of the two dogs we're traveling with) and have been struck, as usual, with the literally unimaginable-to-a-European stretches of No Sign Of Human Activity we've driven across. Even my sister, who, an Air Force brat like me, did this drive a couple of times in our youth, was commenting on how much sheer empty there is in the US as our phone conversation repeatedly dropped out going across eastern NM and west TX.
What with crowded airports, angry TSA agents, 28" seat pitch, etc, almost any air travel amounts to a wasted day, so if I can drive it -- even if it takes an entire day -- that's now my choice."
What's been viciously excluded from all the media stories about them dreadful automobiles is that they are the people's ultra-dominant choice for personal and family transportation. Their owners can go exactly where and exactly when they choose, and can take large amounts of fellow passengers and freight - or none - by their own free choice.
As with our oh-so-noble editorial voices, the car-haters hate OTHER people's autos, while depending on their own.
Robert Cook said...
"I'd prefer long distance travel by train over car, if those are the only two choices."
What? No bus? Some working class activist you are, fascist.
Someone was talking about how in China one can ride the distance from Chicago to NYC in four hours. Well, sure, if you can build a very straight route. In China the builders tell farmers "tough crap, heres a few Yuan for your trouble, now Move! There will be no hearings about the fate of the snail darter. And all of the toxic byproducts of that building project go into a bulldozed hole to be covered and left.
And the Chinese train is an express. The U.S. train would have to stop in every medium to large town enroute. Four hours? More like eight. Ten if TSA is involved, and you know they will.
Phoenix was one.
Well, that's good for Phoenix. The rest of the country wasn't so fortunate. I know of people at Sea-Tac who spent four days inside the terminal trying to get flights out. And that pales in comparison to those in the mid-west and east coast.
The underlying point is ... it appears a LOT of people would rather drive than be treated like cattle, stuck in an airport for days on end and no guarantee they'll arrive anywhere near to being on time.
"And the Chinese train is an express. The U.S. train would have to stop in every medium to large town enroute. Four hours? More like eight. Ten if TSA is involved, and you know they will."
The only train trip I ever took was from Boise to Portland- 12 hours. Driving time is 6 1/2 hours if you stick to the speed limit.
Progressives don't do math.
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Build better highways and improve self driving cars. Then we can drive 120 for long distances.
We don't need trains.
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