७ डिसेंबर, २०२२

"The question at the trial was: What did Weinstein do? But its subtext is an argument about female ambition: What should a woman want?"

Writes Dana Goodyear in "Harvey Weinstein, the Monster of #MeToo/If Weinstein is acquitted in L.A., it will be tempting to conclude that #MeToo is over. But, even if he is convicted, some may reach the same conclusion" (The New Yorker).

The jury has been deliberating for 3 days so far. Today is Day 4, so the prospect of acquittal is real.

Many of Weinstein’s accusers are women who sought access to an industry over which Weinstein held sway, and who continued to strive for it in spite of his alleged abuse. They still wanted the job, the chance....

Two of the witnesses... like many other Weinstein accusers, kept in touch with him afterward...

When the defense told [one witness] that no one had forced her to go to Weinstein’s hotel room on a subsequent occasion, when she had set up a business meeting between Weinstein and a male friend of hers, she parried, “My ego forced me to.”...

[Natassia] Malthe, a frank and salty witness—Weinstein, she said, was a “fat fuck”—suggested that, having already been raped, she “wanted to make the best of this situation... He has you by the fucking throat, knowing that, if you don’t comply, that your career is down the drain, knowing that this thing you’ve worked on for months . . . and that’s not right.”...

If Malthe’s and other similar accounts are true, this is Weinstein at his most diabolical: violating women and then dangling phantom go-nowhere gigs to create an elaborate fiction of an exchange for some future defense, or perhaps to better defend his own conscience from misgivings and moral pangs....

Will a jury find that a woman’s desire to work undermines her account of being sexually violated in the process? Will it believe that these women, participating in a criminal case, are gleefully jumping on what [defense lawyer Alan Jackson] called the “2017 dogpile”? Arguing that Jane Doe No. 3 and Siebel Newsom both engaged in consensual relationships with Weinstein for their own benefit (“He benefitted, and she benefitted”),  Jackson said that after 2017 they were “desperate to relabel their relationships with Harvey Weinstein.”

Siebel Newsom, he said, “cannot square in her mind the idea that she’s a successful, well-educated, well-bred, refined woman who had consensual sex with Harvey Weinstein in exchange for opportunity and access.”

It was “transactional sex,” he said, and Siebel Newsom had buyer’s remorse. But, he said, “regret is far from rape. You don’t get to rewrite your own history, no matter who you’re married to.”

ADDED: Let's look at that question I put in the post title: "What should a woman want?"

Weinstein's lawyers weren't questioning women's ambition. They were acknowledging and crediting women's ambition. As I read those quotes from the defense's closing argument, they were characterizing the women as individuals with full agency, choosing to pay with sex to get what they wanted.

That is, there was consent. Obviously, that doesn't mean a business should be run like that. But in the trial, it is only proffered as a defense to the criminal charge of rape, not as a reason to think transactional sex is not a problem.

But it's easy to condemn rape, and very hard to get into the complex problem of transactional sex. But in the good old days of radical feminism, we did get into that problem. Once you are there, you will be critiquing all the relationships you want to feel warm and romantic about — including the marriage of Siebel and Gavin... and your own marriage. 

AND: What would a rule against transactional sex look like? The only permissible sex would be sex for sex — an equal exchange. Both (or all) parties want the sex precisely because they want the sex and nothing else. That's a high ideal. You might want to try to adhere to it as a matter of personal ethics, but I can't believe you'd want it as a legally enforceable standard of conduct. I'll bet you wouldn't even accept it socially as a basis for judging other people.

७० टिप्पण्या:

Dave Begley म्हणाले...

“You don’t get to rewrite your own history, no matter who you’re married to.”

Great line.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

That's a real question--normally, there's rape and then there's consensual sex. But in most of the Weinstein cases, there is consent given under pressure. Is it ok that he made sex with him a requirement for working on his projects? Should there be degrees of consent? Is saying yes under those conditions rape, but not rape-rape? Is it more ok or less ok that working on his projects opened doors to the kinds of careers that everyone in that town lusted after so that sex with him was a shortcut to fame and fortune? Prostitution is illegal in CA--maybe that should be one of the charges.

What about evidence that he made good on his threats--that he did destroy the careers of women who refused to sleep with him? At least sometimes. Did that ever come up? It should have.

Jake म्हणाले...

This all reminds me of a David Cross sketch from Mr. Show.

https://youtu.be/_ShxUobdZnE

Enigma म्हणाले...

So, 5 years after the Trump era "Believe all women" panic and the Pussy-Hat Brigade...the nuanced facts come out. Reporters only now discover that the Hollywood Casting Couch existed for 100 years prior, and that some women changed their stories for selfish reasons and that women are sometimes not truthful. The media and politicians were fully warned.

In the explicit lyrics of the self-identified female Lana Del Rey (2014):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pbhH7wKCsg

Robert Marshall म्हणाले...

When you're working as defense lawyer for one of the most currently-reviled people in the movie business, and cross-examining the current Governor's wife appearing as a complaining witness against your client, you are showing off some major cujones! Very impressive.

[Sorry to get all anatomical, but the context more or less requires it!]

Just asking questions (Jaq) म्हणाले...

These women are not the real victims of predatory practices by certain male bosses. It's the Paula Joneses and the Juanita Broaddricks of the world who are abused by powerful men. If you look at government websites on the subject, "pressure" has a pretty slippery definition, it can include telling your girlfriend that if she is not interested in having sex with you, maybe it's time for both people to move on.

https://www.womenshealth.gov/relationships-and-safety/other-types/sexual-coercion

D.D. Driver म्हणाले...

Fuck me or I will hit you with a stick = rape
Fuck me and I will give you a carrot = prostitution (but wouldn't they both be guilty)

Tina Trent म्हणाले...

It's not women looking for work: it's women trying to fulfill a fantasy career that only a tiny fraction of people achieve.

The reality on the ground is that the campus feminist-pussy hat types have greedily insisted that their experiences -- often quite transactional -- suction up extremely inadequate court and investigator resources, leaving crumbs for powerless child victims and victims of actually violent stranger sex crimes. The solution certainly isn't to throw ever more broad and subjective causes of action their way.

Do you know how many actually violent and dangerous offenders are ever charged with even of a fraction of their known crimes? A report a few years ago -- I'm including more than sex crime here -- is less than 1%. And that's why every morning there are articles about some subway tracks shover who had 72 KNOWN priors, and so on.

But ever since the campus cabal expanded definitions of consent to words that jurors can't comprehend, there has been less and less justice for the powerless people whose cases don't make the activists slather.

Wilbur म्हणाले...

Robert Marshall said...
When you're working as defense lawyer for one of the most currently-reviled people in the movie business, and cross-examining the current Governor's wife appearing as a complaining witness against your client, you are showing off some major cujones! Very impressive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really? Did you expect him to stand up after her direct testimony and mumble "No questions, Your Honor"?
It's called doing the job for which you are (presumably) being handsomely rewarded. To do any less would be malpractice.

MikeR म्हणाले...

The defense sounds right. He should not be convicted of rape. He should simply be taken out and burned.

Howard म्हणाले...

Trump beta Cucks wish they had the balls to be Harvey.

Achilles म्हणाले...

ADDED: Let's look at that question I put in the post title: "What should a woman want?"

Let's ask this question in terms of what kind of society you want to form which is how it should be asked.

1. As a woman in order to get a part in a movie you have to make a "consensual" agreement with a producer or director. Women who lie on the couch get parts because the type of man that rises to power in hollywood will demand that.

2. As a woman in order to get a part in a movie you have the government or some societal construct looking over your shoulder to make sure there is no sex involved in the consensual agreement or choosing the actresses in a movie.

3. You have female producers like Kathleen Kennedy who make every movie into a female morality play nobody wants to watch.

4.?

Achilles म्हणाले...

The real problem here is much deeper than any of this. It is a corrupt and entrenched Regime that has control over the money and capital in society and they push garbage out into the culture based off their agendas rather than as a reaction to market pressures.

The answer to this is a free market in the long run.

Kate म्हणाले...

How can a woman who has no recognizable Hollywood career argue she had to fuck Weinstein to get a career? Doesn't this argument need women to come forward who are actually stars? Which they won't do, because transactional sex is shaming and wrong.

Quaestor म्हणाले...

How about a sex-for-sex declaration, signed, dated, and notarized? Imagine all those idle and impoverished coal miners and oilfield workers with new careers. First, you contract for the exclusive right to provide the service at bars, dance clubs, or other pick-up venues, then you set your desk near the main entrance with a big sign reading: REMEMBER! ALL SEX W/O THE DECLARATION IS RAPE. PAY NOW OR PAY LATER!

rehajm म्हणाले...

Contracts for Game of Thrones were quite explicit about what sexual touching was required of the actors. Rounding third is enforceable in Hollywood. Ask Jackie O about sex contract law…

Why didn’t he just get it in writing?

Quaestor म्हणाले...

Relax, Howard. My absurd sex-for-sex declaration will never be real.

Besides, by the time Michael Avenatti is out of jail, your ardor will have cooled.

Steven म्हणाले...

Transactional sex is one of the asymmetric powers that women have in society. One could almost say that the women took advantage of Weinstein. They have used their power to manipulate Weinstein into helping them in their business.

Curious George म्हणाले...

Can both sides lose? They are all terrible people.

gilbar म्हणाले...

Steven said...
Transactional sex is one of the asymmetric powers that women have in society. One could almost say that the women took advantage of Weinstein

what they DID, was take advantage of the women that Weren't Willing to suck his cock.
By Showing themselves to be Cock Sucking Whores, they moved themselves to the front of the line.
Not fair at all, to those women that only gave handjobs

William म्हणाले...

Harvey is the perfect villain. Live action version of Jabba the Hut. That said, not all of his victims were perfect victims. Maybe some of his victims could see a way of using his weakness as well as his power to their advantage. I don't see how Harvey could abuse wealthy, famous women for decades unless there was some amount of complicity on the part of many. There's a lot here to quibble over.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"kept in touch with him afterward"

Cuz that's just what you do with rapists.

Anyway, women's ambition, since time immemorial, has been to use sex for their advantage. Almost always under conditions of societal "pressure," of course. The difference now is that they have more opportunities for freely chosen transactions and more opportunity to benefit from complaints after the fact.

Owen म्हणाले...

Future Hollywood moguls are taking notes. They are thinking how to run their business without women actors, or any human actors. CGI, baby. No mess, no seduction, no extortion, no lawyers.

William म्हणाले...

Neither Walker nor Fetterman deserve to be Senators. Fetterman won. Walker didn't. It can be argued that Republicans acted more responsibly than the Dems. They didn't turn out to vote for their unworthy candidate.

Rusty म्हणाले...

Howard said...
"Trump beta Cucks wish they had the balls to be Harvey."
You just wish you had balls.

Rusty म्हणाले...

Quaestor said...
"Relax, Howard. My absurd sex-for-sex declaration will never be real.

Besides, by the time Michael Avenatti is out of jail, your ardor will have cooled."
He will have found another underpass.

mikee म्हणाले...

An old movie quote comes to mind: "Well, they say a slice off a cut loaf is never missed."

At the end of that movie the speaker of the line was executed by firing squad.

Quaestor म्हणाले...

Steve writes, "Transactional sex is one of the asymmetric powers that women have in society."

This point had to be made, and Steve manfully took up the burden.

Thank you, Steve. (There's coffee and macaroons in the green room.)

Yancey Ward म्हणाले...

Show of hands- who is surprised that Howard is the world expert on being a beta cuck?

Iman म्हणाले...

Howard the Cuckduck

iowan2 म्हणाले...

There are dozens of very powerful(measured by wealth) women in Hollywood. Yet none of them lift a finger to these youngsters, boys, men, girls, women. Why dont the stars in Hollywood work to mentor these people?
Or is it maybe, who WE see as victims, aren't?

I keep going back to something I read a while back, that has stuck with me.

Entertainers of yore, 2, 4, 6thousand years ago, were prostitutes and queers. 200, 400 years ago, still prostitutes, and queers.

Now we have to ask ourselves if it is much different today

rcocean म्हणाले...

If I put a gun to your head, and you consent to have sex with me to avoid being shot, I guess its not rape.

Funny how we've pushed the focus back to blaming the rape victim. I thought we were all feminists now. And I thought "No, meant No" even when the woman get undressed, hops into bed, and kisses you. The moment you refuse to stop after she says "No" is rape.

Weinstein, and people like him in Hollywood, are disgusting perverts. Why do they have America by the throat?

Jupiter म्हणाले...

"Both (or all) parties want the sex precisely because they want the sex and nothing else."

In the past, you have suggested that as a guiding principle. But it seems to place sex in a peculiarly singular position. If I wash the dishes, and you dry, it's not because I like washing dishes, and you like drying them. Would the principled thing be to leave them dirty in the sink?

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

I haven't been glued to this story, but it seems that Weinstein made hot actresses offers.

If they complied they got roles. If they didn't comply, they didn't get those roles.

I fail to see the problem.

If he forced himself upon them (rape-rape) then he should never get out of prison.

Caroline म्हणाले...

Weinstein found guilty of not looking like Warren Beatty, whose come on was, “are you a Star-fu@%er?

Mary Beth म्हणाले...

During the Clinton era we were told that sex was no more special than a handshake. Everyone has had to do things (not sex necessarily, but other stuff that would not be their first choice for something to do) for people they work for/with. We live in a culture where sex is not special and hookups are no big deal. Transactional sex is still by choice, even if one's greed is pushing them towards it.

If you want me to feel for your lost virtue, you have to have valued it first.

Weinstein is still scum.

rhhardin म्हणाले...

It went wrong when the point of the charge of rape was lost, probably in the late 70s, when the question came up to the court whether a man could rape his own wife as a legal matter.

Buckley argued (in NR print then) that rape was essentially a crime against a woman's modesty and could not happen with a wife. Instead, the charge should be assault and battery in that case.

The court instead took it as penetration and that's made the confusion we have today.

If anything, what with general female modesty being gone in any case, rape should be abandoned in general and just go with assault for everything.

Then Weinstein would be charged with assault and the evidence matters would be easier to argue.

tommyesq म्हणाले...

If Malthe’s and other similar accounts are true, this is Weinstein at his most diabolical: violating women and then dangling phantom go-nowhere gigs to create an elaborate fiction of an exchange for some future defense...

So he rapes them and then dangles a career, at which point they become voluntary participants? Doesn't seem like the most likely scenario to me.

tommyesq म्हणाले...

As a woman in order to get a part in a movie you have to make a "consensual" agreement with a producer or director. Women who lie on the couch get parts because the type of man that rises to power in hollywood will demand that.

Or more likely, there is a certain type of woman who will offer that, fully consensually, to get the part over women who will not, and there are enough of that type of women to exclude the non-consensual types from most roles.

tim maguire म्हणाले...

gilbar said...what they DID, was take advantage of the women that Weren't Willing to suck his cock.

That's a part that a lot of people here are glossing over--what he did to the women who said no. Word is, he propositioned Minnie Driver shortly after Good Will Hunting made her a hot commodity. She said no. He spread a rumor that she was difficult to work with. It was years before she got anything more than bit parts and she never became the star it looked like she was destined to be.

Left Bank of the Charles म्हणाले...

“What would a rule against transactional sex look like? The only permissible sex would be sex for sex — an equal exchange.”

Sex for sex is also a transaction. This formulation goes to the equality of the transaction. The next step down that path would be to posit that the quality of the sexual experience would have to be of equal value for all the parties to the sex. Weinstein’s argument is that he gave more value than he received. Even if the jury accepts that there was an exchange, they could also find that the exchange was not for consensual sex but so the women would not report him for rape.

PM म्हणाले...

Rammed if you do, damned if you don't.

Scott Patton म्हणाले...

"What should a woman want?"
That should be nobody else's business.
The answer to the next question is called revealed preference.

Lurker21 म्हणाले...

Real alphas aren't talking all the time about alphas and betas.

As a guy, my first thought is that if Weinstein or Cosby asked me to their room, I wouldn't assume they wanted sex, but women have to be more circumspect. A man enjoying your company means something different if you are a woman than if you are a man.

If Kevin Spacey asked me up, however, I wouldn't go.

Paddy O म्हणाले...

In any other industry, this would be straightforward sexual harassment. Why does the entertainment industry have a different set of rules?

Paddy O म्हणाले...

Which is to say, that it seems stated as matter of fact that if they didn't comply they would not have opportunities in the profession. The question is whether they willingly complied? In any other industry the mere fact that sexual favors were being demanded for job advancement would take the issue of complying off the table, it's not allowed and should never be expected. Winking at it, ha-ha casting couch, doesn't make it right or legal and women shouldn't have to be expected to do this for the sake of mere acting jobs.

loudogblog म्हणाले...

The situation is extremely complex given the nature of Harvey's extreme power in Hollywood at the time. People can put up with a lot of personal humiliation if it means that all their wildest dreams might come true. The line of it being consensual behavior between adults becomes very blurred.

Mattman26 म्हणाले...

"It's not women looking for work: it's women trying to fulfill a fantasy career that only a tiny fraction of people achieve."

Bingo.

Readering म्हणाले...

How did WF Buckley analyze rape of a man?

n.n म्हणाले...

#MeToo #HerToo #SheProgressed A clear case of aborting the baby... Fetal-Baby, cannibalizing her profitable parts, sequestering her carbon pollutants in darkness... perchance a sanctuary state, and having her, too.

That said, take a knee, beg, reach for the White House... one step forward, two steps backward.

JK Brown म्हणाले...

Pretty much everything I've seen Weinstein charged with has been transactional sex. However, reports are that he took actions against those women who declined to give him their custom. That's extortion and when it is to get sex, it's rape. It he'd just let those women who declined his charms go on their merry way with neither help or hinderance, then the situation would be different.

If we go by the young women who revealed their sex calculations after Dobbs, all their sex is transactional. Apparently, women, at least on dating apps, want a man who is over 6', good looking, high earner for their dating/sex partners. They are trading sexual access for the men's status. Of course, men are transacting as well by sharing their wealth to entice women to become their sexual partners. Statutorily, it is only prostitution if there is an overt exchange of money, sometimes goods.

Mattman26 म्हणाले...

"However, reports are that he took actions against those women who declined to give him their custom. That's extortion and when it is to get sex, it's rape."

I'm not so sure that's right, either as to extortion or rape.

It's appalling, to be sure. And there are almost certainly civil remedies. But rape? I'm thinking not.

Goldenpause म्हणाले...

Three days of jury deliberations suggests a hung jury (no pun intended).

GRW3 म्हणाले...

So, to condense the contention, the jury is trying to decide if it was rape or prostitution.

Sebastian म्हणाले...

"if Weinstein or Cosby asked me to their room"

If any man asks any woman not his wife--heck, if he invites his own wife--to a hotel room, by herself, what does he want?

Does any woman, going up to a man's room, by herself, assume anything else?

These cases ask us to suspend disbelief.

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed म्हणाले...

"What should women want?" is a question already answered by feminists: Whatever she wants, and she should be given it with no strings attached, no consequences, no guilt or shame.

And I suspect that all of Weinstein's victims and participants had that answer in their minds when they agreed to party with Weinstein and were shocked to find that Harvey isn't a feminist.

frenchie म्हणाले...

Hopefully, if not ideally, the prospect of his acquittal was always real.

Owen म्हणाले...

JK Brown @ 1:11: "....That's extortion and when it is to get sex, it's rape." Oh? Help me here.

I thought rape required unwanted physical contact between the defendant/assailant and the complainant/victim.

Where's that necessary element of the crime when the defendant/assailant requests the contact but the complainant/victim refuses --no contact, only an exchange of words-- and then later on (perhaps not even telling the complainant/victim that it is being done) the defendant/assailant "gets even" by sabotaging the career of the complainant/victim?

That action might trigger lawsuits (e.g. tortious interference, harassment, conspiracy to deprive somebody of rights, defamation, etc etc) but calling it "rape" seems like a real stretch.

tommyesq म्हणाले...

Paddy O said In any other industry, this would be straightforward sexual harassment. Why does the entertainment industry have a different set of rules?

In most states, sexual harassment leads to potential civil liability but is not criminal. Not sure what the California laws on this are. Plus, in this case, Weinstein was charged with sexual assault and rape, it may be that (assuming that harassment itself would be deemed criminal) the prosecutors chose the stronger charges to prevent a jury from taking a compromise position in their verdict.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

"In any other industry, this would be straightforward sexual harassment. Why does the entertainment industry have a different set of rules?"

I hope you don't read my post as questioning whether this is sexual harassment.

The trial is about whether it is rape.

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...

"If I put a gun to your head, and you consent to have sex with me to avoid being shot, I guess its not rape."

No one is saying that.

It's more like saying if you have sex with me, I'll let you live in my mansion.

Zev म्हणाले...

A respectable, self-respecting person would not have sex to get a job.
Weinstein is a sleaze and so are the women.
It's not a crime.

Howard म्हणाले...

Let the jury figure it out. That way, you don't have to pollute your mind with the inside baseball disgusting details. This type of x-rated tabloid story is mental fentanyl. Just say no.

Amadeus 48 म्हणाले...

What did Jennifer Lawrence mean when she called Harvey Weinstein "a little rascal" back in the early days of her success? I have never seen anyone call that comment up.

rcocean म्हणाले...

Ok, but when you get down to it, who cares WHY she went to his hotel room. She either consented or she didn't. Do you get to rape a prostitute? I thought we already settled this in the law.

Tim म्हणाले...

Weinstein was a monster, and the worst sort of person in the world, trading access to roles for sex. But the women seemed to go along with it for the chance at success. And if we take it to the extreme, how far do we take it? The woman who married a man to get out of poverty, and trades sex for security, can she cry rape if she regrets her decision 20 years later? The starlet who has sex with Elon Musk, and has his baby, partly for the perks of being Elon's child's mother? Does she get to cry rape when the child turns 18? I understand why the jury is taking so long, and I am not convinced that they will not be able to come up with a verdict one way or the other. But it sure makes me glad my children stayed in Tennessee, and in the normal world, and well away from Hollywood.

Joe Smith म्हणाले...

"In any other industry, this would be straightforward sexual harassment. Why does the entertainment industry have a different set of rules?"

AFAIK those women weren't employed by him. There is no 'studio system' any more.

Actors have agents and are independent contractors...

Owen म्हणाले...

Ann @ 4:01: "...It's more like saying if you have sex with me, I'll let you live in my mansion." I guess so, although I think the facts and circumstances may well differ materially in each of these transactions. I don't have any interest in picking through that sewage, so let's stick with your characterization: a sleazy bipartisan event, where "coercion" consisted of promised rewards or punishments.

Sounds like a simple matter of contract law. I assume everybody was of legal age, not drunk or deranged, etc. So the issue for the jury would be: in the case of a promised future reward, was the bargain kept? And in the case of a threatened future punishment, was it credible and, if so, was it administered to a noncompliant party, and if so, was that an illegal act (e.g. more than alleged "bad mouthing" or a failure to pick up the phone)?

n.n म्हणाले...

Transactional relationship.

Girl meets boy.
Girl and boy convene in courtship.
Boy proposes, girl accepts, marriage.
Husband and wife convene in a sexual relationship, then follows "our Posterity" in baby.
Father, mother, and child live for themselves and each other in virtual perpetuity.
Thus the fitness of life in a transactional relationship.

Joe Bar म्हणाले...

"What should a woman want?"

If it demands what Harvey Weinstein wants, then the price is not worth the pearl.