August 6, 2022
"Indiana became the first state in the country after the fall of Roe v. Wade to pass sweeping limits on abortion access...."
"The bill, which will go into effect Sept. 15, allows abortion only in cases of rape, incest, lethal fetal abnormality or when the procedure is necessary to prevent severe health risks or death.... Before settling on the exceptions, Republican legislators disagreed on how far the law should go, with some GOP members siding with Democrats in demanding that abortion be legal in cases of rape and incest.... The push by Indiana Republicans to restrict abortion access stands in stark contrast with the overwhelming support for it by voters in Kansas... In Indiana, Democratic legislators described the Kansas vote as a warning to their Republican colleagues to consider the potential fallout from voters...."
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66 comments:
Federalism. Different states, different results. Deal with it.
This is what democracy looks like.
So lots of new raping and incest in IN?
If that's claimed, there had better be an accompanying police report...
Montana is right behind them but probably must wait until next year.
Local Democrats need to stop sniveling and turn out the vote on this issue.
Activist Republicans hand midterms to Democrats.
I've been too busy to follow the Indiana law but "before 10 weeks" probably won't be unpopular here. Even pro-choice voters outside of major cities tend to follow the "I wouldn't want it for my daughter, sister, friend, or neighbor because the community should support her so she can keep the baby, but I want it in case of the mother's life."
And the state was already pretty light on abortion clinics. One interesting thing is that there are now basically 3 hospital chains in the state - Franciscan, Ascension, and Indiana University. The first two are Catholic chains. Most non-rural areas have IU + a Catholic hospital, but in rural areas women may have to drive for a hospital that does abortions.
This does basically give IU a monopoly on abortions in Indiana. On the other hand, they are generally a clean and competent chain, so I think this is a step up from "fly by night abortion clinics" even for prochoice voters.
Indiana has a robust network of "Take care of Mom and baby until age 5 and help mom finish her education and start a career" crisis pregnancy centers, so hopefully they grow even more.
I think this law is, in part, a result of removing all the stigma from single motherhood. It's harder to justify abortion when the result of having a kid out of wedlock is "Well, I had to go to directional state and now I'm a bank branch manager instead of a corporate lawyer" as opposed to "You will never work or go to school again and will be trapped on the margins."
The Republic at work. Kansas goes one way, Indiana goes another. I think it is fantastic!
The push by Indiana Republicans to restrict abortion access stands in stark contrast with the overwhelming support for it by voters in Kansas...
this is a Good Way, of misconstruing the Kansas vote
Slavery, diversity, witch hunts, warlock trials, and human sacrificial rites conceived in progress, birthed with consensus, sustained with stare decisis.
Roe vs Wade did not fall, the viability of baby approaches granny in state, if not in process, the performance of human rites for social, redistributive, clinical, political, and fair weather causes has been limited. Keep women affordable, available, and taxable, and the bodies of evidenc aborted and sequestered in darkness?
That said, overturning human rites, a positive development for human rights. With four choices, and an equal right to self-defense, choose wisely, ladies and gentlemen. One step forward.
Gonna be an AWFUL lot more rapes occurring in Indiana going forward.
These "exceptions" will be abused to the point of ridiculousness. Effectively, there is no ban on abortion with all these amorphous, undefined, exceptions.
Define: "severe." Hell, Supreme Court Token Justice Ketani Jackson Five cannot even tell you what a woman is. Much less what the definition of "severe" is.
Almost as if legislative solutions to legal issues might work, isn't it?
So lots of new raping and incest in IN?
The former is a crime committed against the individual and society. The latter is a mode of social progress in some cultures.
WAPO.
Instantly discounted.
Skip.
Hopefully we'll see more of these radical restrictions. There's instapundent always says faster please
Illinois next door allows abortion on demand for 9 months.
Abortion will become a leading industry in Illinois. Clinics and hotels and restaurants will dot the border with Indiana.
By the way:
They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.
So I thought we were all going to compromise on somewhere around fifteen or sixteen weeks and everybody would be happy.
Now we are finding out that states are passing extremely strict laws than ban abortions with very narrow exceptions (the 10 week allowance is only for rape and incest)
Good thing I'm not as gullible as Althouse and believe that Dobbs would lead to reasonable restrictions.
Does anyone know what n. n. is saying at 12:23?
You may disagree, but I disagree with abortion up to the day of birth that is legal in NY. I don't have to like it because I don't live there. I think THAT is more extreme.
Nice post Deirdre Mundy - thank you.
No doubt Missouri will choose a compromise.
Amazing how many leftists like Freder are appalled at the idea a baby might live....
Their God Moloch is not pleased, not pleased at all.
But the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob certainly approves!
To be fair, it's entirely possible most abortion fanatics prefer Aztec style deities instead, what with the current "Dismember and sell the body" aborgton routine.
So I thought we were all going to compromise on somewhere around fifteen or sixteen weeks and everybody would be happy.
I thought that diversity was central to modern leftist thinking, Fredo.
I agree with earlier commenters who stated that this is what democracy looks like. Also, it is something that will probably hurt activist Republicans in states like Indiana.
Okay now that I did some digging on what happened in Kansas,* I don't see how anyone can honestly conclude "oh my goodness, trying to put restrictions on abortion is political suicide". The media are (in my opinion) trying to create this artificial impression to discourage state legislatures from passing restrictions. They think we don't notice.
*Voters were being asked to approve a statement that basically disagreed with their state supreme court, that the state constitution contains a right to abortion. The statement was confusing, poorly worded. Media framing (especially headlines) has been misleading.
“Local Democrats need to stop sniveling and turn out the vote on this issue.”
Exactly what is already happening. Conservatives are going to be surprised at voter turnout and by huge margins of losses they will incur, because it’s never a good idea to take away rights.
“Does anyone know what n. n. is saying at 12:23?”
Burble, garble, blah, blah, blah, human rites, eating fetuses, garble, gurble, blah, blah, blah.
Instead of limiting abortion, how about saying you're doing it for the children? You know- the way "climate change" is being presented by some. How could any self-respecting progressive not get behind that?
Freder: The great thing about Federalism is if the people of Indiana don’t like this law they can change it … ask the legislature to pass a new law, or seek to elect one that does. The people of Indiana (and Kansas and every other state) are in control. Roe took away the people’s voice, which is the main reason why abortion remained a controversial issue for the 50 post-Roe years.
Over the next decade or so, the people in all 50 states wiil decide what they want to do about abortion. I agree with others that most states will arrive at legal up to 15 weeks or so. That’s where most Americans are comfortable.
I’m fine with that. It’s the system the Founders gave us. And it works.
You may disagree, but I disagree with abortion up to the day of birth that is legal in NY.
This is a lie, or at least so deceptive to be the equivalent of a <a href="https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/30/fact-check-andrew-cuomo-new-york-law-does-not-allow-abortion-up-until-birth/3014473001/>lie</a>
Does anyone know what n. n. is saying at 12:23?
Only 12:23? Just about everything n.n. writes is indecipherable.
I suppose the Democrats could be correct about that. Then again, you generally do not encourage your political opponents to take actions that help your opponents' chances in the next election. I sense they protest too much.
Politicians in general and Democrats in particular can be quite disingenuous. With the gay marriage debate we went from "there's no reason to pass any legislation as nothing is going to happen" to "you are all bigots and we are going to ruin you" overnight. Seems like more of the same here.
minnesota farm guy:
First, several legal precedents that haven't aged well.
Second, Roe vs is defined by an action: elective abortion, and a threshold: viability.
Third, sacrifice of [virginal] human life has a long and storied history.
"This is what democracy looks like."
Let's come back to that statement in December, shall we?
Almost as if legislative solutions to legal issues might work, isn't it?
Yes, a 3/5 compromise, then comes the civil war. Unfortunately, demos-cracy is aborted in darkness, under a cloak of privacy (e.g. murder), at the twilight fringe (i.e. penumbras and emanations, conflation of logical domains) so civilized society has a compelling interest to discourage its practice and associated rites performed for social, redistributive, clinical, political, and fair weather causes.
Joe Smith confusingly said (or, was confused when he said)...
So lots of new raping and incest in IN?
If that's claimed, there had better be an accompanying police report...
NOPE!
Victims would not be required to sign a notarized affidavit attesting to an attack, which had previously been proposed.<
Buckwheathikes sohw they didn't do the reading, when they said...
Gonna be an AWFUL lot more rapes occurring in Indiana going forward.
These "exceptions" will be abused to the point of ridiculousness. Effectively, there is no ban on abortion
NOPE!
The rape and incest exceptions only apply in the first 10 weeks post-fertilization.
According to the bill, abortions can only be performed in hospitals or outpatient centers owned by hospitals. This means all abortion clinics would lose their licenses. A doctor who performs an illegal abortion or fails to file necessary reports will also lose their medical license.
So, YES! ANYONE can claim 'rape!' for the first 10 weeks... And Only hospitals or outpatient centers owned by hospitals can do the abortions..
Please do the reading! Don't make it look like gilbar knows more than you do..
In Indiana, Democratic legislators described the Kansas vote as a warning to their Republican colleagues to consider the potential fallout from voters...."
We shouldn't hold our breath waiting for Democratic legislators to describe the Indiana vote as a warning to their Democratic colleagues.
The Party of Science(tm) only uses data which supports it preferred conclusions.
"Indiana became the first state in the country after the fall of Roe v. Wade to pass sweeping limits on abortion access...."
Lt. Lockhart : [reading] ... we have a new directive from N.Y.T. on this. In the future, in place of "changes to the state's abortion law," substitute the phrase "sweeping limits on abortion access." Got it?
Private Joker : Got it. Very catchy.
It is a good thing that IN is right next to IL. Choices!
Recently there was a Washington Post opinion piece that said that, with the Kansas vote on abortion, Ruth Bader Ginsberg has the last laugh on Justice Alito. Huh? I beg to differ. The SCOTUS decision did not ban abortion as some proclaimed, it merely declared there was no federally guaranteed right to an abortion. The decision does what the constitutional framers intended and puts the decision in the hands of the people. In Kansas they spoke for it, in Indiana they didn’t. This is how government of the people, by the people and for the people should work.
Now we are finding out that states are passing extremely strict laws than ban abortions with very narrow exceptions (the 10 week allowance is only for rape and incest)
Good thing I'm not as gullible as Althouse and believe that Dobbs would lead to reasonable restrictions.
As you must be aware, state abortion laws that go far to one end or the other of the gestation period are going to be effectively on the ballot this year and going forward. Some states might indeed continue to have greater restrictions on abortion than you might want, but Dobbs threw the question back to state legislatures and that means back to state legislatORS, who can be voted out if they are not reflecting the positions of those who elected them.
But the process is slower than judicial fiat, very true. And not as hard to challenge and change. "One person, one vote" is not "one person, one vote, one time."
Mark O-
And I don't like anybody very much.
The bill, which will go into effect Sept. 15
=========
don't bill have to be signed into act to become law to go into effect?
It's exactly what the pro-life people have wanted.
They all claim to be for 14 weeks, but then the mask slips like it did here and it becomes evident that pro-life folks are as extreme as claimed.
November will be interesting.
Point is that abortion supporters always raise questions about hard cases such as rape and incest and life of the mother because they know that there is universal concern about those cases. So a law which directly exempts those kinds of cases has a good chance of passing and being supported. A law like the law (or the amendment) in Kansas which bans abortion will not have support. It may be said that it isn't logical to exempt some cases and allow abortion of some innocent human beings. It isn't logical but it is good law to pass laws people can understand and support. In the end people turned against slavery and in the end they will turn against killing unborn children. We'll get there if we raise questions in people's minds.
I've always found the "rape exception" to abortion bans puzzling. It seems to imply that if the mother is pregnant because she voluntarily had sex, she's guilty and should be punished by being required to give birth; but if she was raped then she's not guilty and doesn't need to be punished and can get an abortion. Have I got that right?
Does anyone understand what Fredo and Inga are saying?
"how about saying you're doing it for the children?"
transnatal rights
The Godfather said...
I've always found the "rape exception" to abortion bans puzzling. It seems to imply that if the mother is pregnant because she voluntarily had sex, she's guilty and should be punished by being required to give birth
So it's your mindset that pregnancy is a "punishment"?
That's quite the special view. Do you wish your mom hadn't been "punished" with you?
It's about consent:
Did you chose to have sex? Then you chose the consequences
Did you NOT chose to have sex? Then you didn't chose the consequences. in which case you should have at least one chance to avoid those consequences.
If a man choses to have sex with a woman, and she gets pregnant, for the next 18 years he's stuck with the consequences of that choice, in the form of child support.
I see no reason why the woman who made that choice shouldn't face consequences for ~p months
"I've always found the "rape exception" to abortion bans puzzling"
It's a pragmatic response to a complicated world.
It really is about honoring choice and accepting that having a baby should involve a choice.
When someone is raped, and impregnated, they were forced into an act that resulted in the pregnancy so the choice is given when it is possible.
When someone voluntarily has sex, and is impregnated, it is seen that there was already free will, so the choice was made to engage in behavior that, biologically, has the strong possibility of pregnancy. So, having made the choice, even if not wanting the consequences, the choice is already made.
An awkward analogy is drunk-driving. If Bill Cosby drugs a woman and she drives away and crashes and kills someone, she's not responsible, he is. But if that same woman chooses to drink 8 beers and vodka shots, drives away and kills someone, she's responsible for the consequences even if that's not the intent or result she wanted from that evening's activities.
If abortion is killing someone, then there's allowance for identifying human realities when choice has been taken entirely away vs no allowances for just not wanting to deal with the consequences of choices already made.
Mark said...
They all claim to be for 14 weeks
Really? You've got some support for that claim?
but then the mask slips like it did here and it becomes evident that pro-life folks are as extreme as claimed.
They're making aboriton available for all the "hard cases" you lefties have identified. Exactly how does that qualify as "extreme"?
"I've always found the "rape exception" to abortion bans puzzling"
It's a pragmatic response to a complicated world.
It really is about honoring choice and accepting that having a baby should involve a choice.
When someone is raped, and impregnated, they were forced into an act that resulted in the pregnancy so the choice is given when it is possible.
When someone voluntarily has sex, and is impregnated, it is seen that there was already free will, so the choice was made to engage in behavior that, biologically, has the strong possibility of pregnancy. So, having made the choice, even if not wanting the consequences, the choice is already made.
An awkward analogy is drunk-driving. If Bill Cosby drugs a woman and she drives away and crashes and kills someone, she's not responsible, he is. But if that same woman chooses to drink 8 beers and vodka shots, drives away and kills someone, she's responsible for the consequences even if that's not the intent or result she wanted from that evening's activities.
If abortion is killing someone, then there's allowance for identifying human realities when choice has been taken entirely away vs no allowances for just not wanting to deal with the consequences of choices already made.
The push by Indiana Republicans to restrict abortion access stands in stark contrast with the overwhelming support for it by voters in Kansas
Having read the ballot initiative that was voted on, I feel comfortable saying that the only thing the KS vote shows is that the ballot proposition was one of the most poorly written monstrosities ever inflicted upon voters.
But yes, In November we will get to see what the voters think of all this
Blogger The Godfather said...
I've always found the "rape exception" to abortion bans puzzling. It seems to imply that if the mother is pregnant because she voluntarily had sex, she's guilty and should be punished by being required to give birth; but if she was raped then she's not guilty and doesn't need to be punished and can get an abortion. Have I got that right?
8/6/22, 8:39 PM
I suppose you could interpret things that way. I would say, rather, that in the case of rape, the insemination was forced and involuntary, therefore the woman should have the option to terminate as it was not her choice to get pregnant in the first place. In the case of voluntary sex, she knew it was a risk and still chose to move forward so getting pregnant was her choice regardless of how much she regrets it afterwards.
They all claim to be for 14 weeks, but then the mask slips like it did here and it becomes evident that pro-life folks are as extreme as claimed.
Again, let me try!
They all claim to be for "a woman's right to choose," but then the mask slips like it has since Dobbs, if not before and it becomes evident that pro-abortion folks are as extreme as claimed.
Neither is true. On both sides, there are absolutists. But when you poll Americans about abortion, most actually do support limitations similar to those of European countries. And those active on the anti-abortion side have been straightforward all along about being against all abortion. On the pro-abortion side, their opposite numbers have talked a great game about "safe, legal, and rare," about "choice," about "family planning" - but Roe falls and the demands for no restrictions on abortion - because anything less constitutes a vicious attack on women's bodily autonomy - grow to jet-engine decibel levels.
We'll see how it falls out, state by state. Meanwhile (and thereafter!) I encourage girls and women to take responsibility for their sexuality the way they used to have to, but with the modern amenity of very effective contraception.
And I would love it if "Planned Parenthood" included any actual planning for actual parenthood, rather than just avoidance of it. I'd think I'd become accustomed to Orwellian word games, but they still make my teeth itch.
This should keep the sluts of NY and LA out of Indiana.
Godfather @ 8:39pm,
Obama, is that you???
YOU LIE Howard. Keep on believing the propaganda that your side puts out...NY Politicians gave a standing ovation when they passed the abortion up to the day of birth law...They even lit up One World Trade Center in pink. But you just go back to sleep until they tell you what lie to spew next. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/01/30/new-york-abortion-law-liberal-leaders-celebration-death-life-column/2670049002/
Progressives are SICK. Who can unite with people THIS evil?? WHY would you want to?? https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/christian-toto/2022/08/06/lena-dunhams-vile-new-film-features-first-abortion-baby-shower
In Colorado, you can abort your fully formed, normal, healthy baby up to birth for any reason you choose. An abortionist in the Boulder area who does late-term abortions said 80% of these they do are 'elective', with the mother citing 'depression' and 'relationship problems' as the reason. This is the other side of the extreme. I don't think most people are happy with this either.
Activist Republicans hand midterms to Democrats.
This is definitely a risk they're taking. And then they'll have 'control' over nothing. The state republican platform in at least two states I know of have included 'planks' against abortion with NO exceptions. They can feel as morally superior as they want with this, but the people don't want this and they'll lose on this, and every other policy they might have enacted, if they push it.
Activist Republicans hand midterms to Democrats.
3/5ths compromise, perhaps.
"I've always found the "rape exception" to abortion bans puzzling"
Consent to sex implies consent to bearing a child. Our nation condones neither a state of slavery (i.e. involuntary exploitation) nor diversity [dogma] (i.e. color judgment, class-based bigotry).
Demos-cracy is aborted in darkness, under a veil of privacy (i.e. murder), which sets up a hard problem (e.g. an unknown, unknowable future), but does not justify a wicked solution (e.g. minority report; elective abortion for social, redistributive, clinical, political, and fair weather causes).
Jamie said...
Neither is true. On both sides, there are absolutists. But when you poll Americans about abortion, most actually do support limitations similar to those of European countries
Florida recently passed a ban on abortions after 15 weeks.
The Democrat DA of Hillsborough County announced he would not prosecute ANY abortions, no matter how late they were done.
CA and NY have "abortion uber alles" laws.
What are the "non-extremist" Democrat run States passing 15 week abortion bans?
There aren't any? Because essentially all Democrat elected officials are lunatic extremists on abortion?
Yeah, there's one side that has a major "abortion extremism" problem, and it's NOT the GOP
"The Democrat DA of Hillsborough County announced he would not prosecute ANY abortions, no matter how late they were done."
I believe the Florida governor had some thoughts about this.
Mason G said...
"The Democrat DA of Hillsborough County announced he would not prosecute ANY abortions, no matter how late they were done."
I believe the Florida governor had some thoughts about this.
Yes, and they were good ones
Esp the one about sending cops to escort the asshole out
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