"At just one site of extensive trenching a few hundred yards outside the town of Chernobyl, the Russian army had dug an elaborate maze of sunken walkways and bunkers.... The soldiers had apparently camped out for weeks in the radioactive forest.... At one dug-in position, Russian troops had burrowed a bunker from the sandy side of a road embankment and left heaps of trash — food wrappings, discarded boots, a blackened cooking pot — suggesting they had lived in the underground space for an extended time. Nearby, a bulldozer had scraped away the topsoil to build berms for artillery emplacements and a half-dozen foxholes.
The forest around had recently burned, suggesting a fire had swept over the area during the Russian occupation, adding radioactive smoke to the exposure of the Russian soldiers, along with dust from disturbed ground."
From "Russian Blunders in Chernobyl: ‘They Came and Did Whatever They Wanted’/Tank treads ripped up the toxic soil, bulldozers carved trenches and bunkers, and soldiers spent a month camped in — and dug into — a radioactive forest" (NYT).
Also, we're told, the Russian solders left "appliances and electronic goods on roads in the Chernobyl zone" — including a washing machine — "apparently looted from towns deeper inside Ukraine and cast off for unclear reasons in the final retreat."
The shocking and absurd ineptitude made me think of something I read last night in "Nine ways Russia botched its invasion of Ukraine" (WaPo). Item #2, "Not preparing their troops":
Testimonies of captured Russian soldiers suggest many troops had not been told they would be invading Ukraine. Some said they were told they were participating in a military exercise... That meant they were psychologically unprepared to be shot at and blown up, as happened almost instantly, which took an immediate toll on troops’ morale....
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३९ टिप्पण्या:
One of my Polish friends described Russia’s military doctrine - “we have a lot of people.”
Russia is basically sending in single use soldiers to fight the war. And we see the extent of Russian internal propaganda through the Chernobyl incident. None of the soldiers even know what Chernobyl is or that it’s irradiated.
Now that Putin has tied his oil and gas sales to the ruble and the ruble to the gold standard, he has stabilized the ruble. The Paris Accords are now emerging as a Russian plot to get the west addicted to Russian oil and gas - and it worked (Trump messed it up for a while but it finally worked). Add that economic advantage together with “we have a lot of people” and Russia can fight and win this war in ways we might not understand.
The sanctions will be useless while the oil and gas flows and ruble stays steady.
Putin is Kaiser Soze and he’s willingly to do what no one else is willingly to do. And he has the perfect US president letting him do it.
The Russian government cares NOTHING about exposing its Own People to radiation
The Russian governments have NEVER cared about exposing their People to radiation
Please Remember This, the next time someone like CBS News Radio’s Steven Portnoy asks “Why shouldn’t the images from the atrocities from Bucha compel a worldwide unified coalition kinetic response?”
Kinetic response? “You mean a military war?”
“Sure,” replied Portnoy. “A military response led by the United States and the international partners... Why not?” he said.
As i said, the russian government doesn't CARE about radiation, and have more nukes than the rest of the world combined
The Red Forest: a story of the Ukraine Invasion. You'd need a Russian novelist with sci-fi leanings to tell the story of the "elite" soldier looting near Chernobyl, shooting villagers to get their iPhones and stuff, keeping the stuff in the trenches in the Red Forest till he gets a chance to send it home, sends radioactive loot home to loved ones, starts getting sick, regimental panic, sudden retreat, dies on the way to Belarus, buried by wayside, cause of death covered up so loved ones don't realize what they have is radioactive, sister, Antigone, finds the body for proper burial and signs of radiation sickness recognized, sister executed for burying her brother at home and spreading disinformation ... I can't go on.
Somewhere, in a planning session, somebody must have said, "Chernobyl. Isn't that where...?"
How do you say, "dismissive nasal snort!" in Russian
Not sorry.
For some reason, the ineptness of the Russian military described in this Chernobyl article reminded me of the comedy from the 1960's 'The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming.' Of course, there's really no similarity at all. In the movie, the townspeople bonded with the benign Russian submariners and ended up protecting them from being pulverized by US military aircraft.
In the HBO version of Chernobyl;
The russians couldn't clear the roof of the reactor with robots, 'cause the robots would die.
So, the russians used PEOPLE to clear the roof.. Bio Robots
That was back in the '80's? WHAT has changed?
"The Russian government cares NOTHING about exposing its Own People to radiation
"The Russian governments have NEVER cared about exposing their People to radiation"
Do you think the US is any better?
Failure to have a functioning chain of command from the newest private to the top field general was and is a primary reason the Russian military suffers such ineptness, and not just the army. The navy and air force are the same. It's also the reason so many senior officers have been killed, i.e., they had to personally take tactical command at the front in order to have any influence on the situation there, and in doing so directly exposed themselves to enemy fire. The fundamental issues are two fold: 1) the restrictions placed on initiative up and down the chain of command, a carryover from the Soviet days when no officer trusted anyone below him and political officers embedded in the units were always looking over everyone's shoulder, and 2) the absence of an effective non commissioned office corps to provide direct leadership and guidance down to the squad level. Western militaries give significant authority to the more junior officers up at the company and platoon levels and to their E6/7/8/9 NCOs. That's the level at which discipline and policies are enforced and tactical initiative begins for the individual soldier. This authority also facilitates "command by negation," i.e., authority for subordinate units to make tactical decisions based on an approved operational plan and defined tactical standards unless those actions are negated by the area warfare commander. Similarly, unit discipline breaks down if there are no NCOs to maintain order, and in their absence looting, rape, murder and general mayhem at the front can become endemic. This fact is as old as organized warfare and is apparent in the civilian atrocities committed by the Russian troops.
"As i said, the russian government doesn't CARE about radiation, and have more nukes than the rest of the world combined."
Wrong.
It wouldn't matter even if it were true. There are enough nukes in the world to destroy human civilization if we get into a nuke shooting war.
"Some said they were told they were participating in a military exercise..."
This is the same thing Russian soldiers said upon returning from Afghanistan. They were told they were going there to help service the Afghan people and do some easy training. They came home missing limbs, or in zinc coffins.
It seems that political and military leaders in many countries learn nothing as time goes on. Hence, history repeats. And repeats.
Can we see pictures of these trenches? The article has none. The story is a month old and I've not seen pics anywhere else either.
There is a picture of a "crushed car and other debris" but nothing to indicate when it was taken or how it was crushed.
For being a major staging area in the center of town it sure looks deserted.
Lookjng close, I'm not even certain it was a car. I cannot see any wheels or engine.
I call bullshit on this whole story. And stories about Russians in Chernobyl generally.
And even more generally I call bullshit on about 80% of all stories about Chernobyl over the past 36 years. Including the HBO movie mentioned above.
John LGBTQBNY Henry
Please listen. This is who the democrat base prefers - instead of a functioning democracy.
YIKES
The Russians are behaving with such awesome stupidity that it gives them a tactical advantage. Ever get into an argument with a homeless person or a drug addict? They don't give a fuck and are willing to go places that you're not. They've got a tactical advantage over you.....The invasion itself was a stupid mistake, and the stupidity keeps compounding and cascading.....The Soviets botched the invasion of Finland. Their poor performance was what inspired Hitler to proceed with his own invasion. Soviet Russia eventually won their war against Germany. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if students of history find a moral to this story.
The Wilmer FBI agents are on it!
At just one site of extensive trenching a few hundred yards outside the town of Chernobyl, the Russian army had dug an elaborate maze of sunken walkways and bunkers....
But...but...I was assured by (self-appointed) military experts on the Althouse Blog (most likely FSB embeds) that Russians digging trenches at Chernobyl was illogical and didn't make sense!!!
"Do you think the US is any better?"
It's good to be reminded that however much I'm out of sympathy with part of the 'right' (like with NN the Putinist, or Timmie the surrender monkey, ...) the Left is at best just as bad but most of the time a lot worse.
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A55wkMzWIOk"
'Ukraine officials survey Russian dug trenches in Chernobyl exclusion zone's radioactivity levels'
Tom said...
One of my Polish friends described Russia’s military doctrine - “we have a lot of people.”
Their birth rates are not what they once were is their current problem.
Russia had millions of people to fight WW2. Now they have trouble mustering up 130k.
How did Russians get to be so stupid?
the absence of an effective non commissioned office corps to provide direct leadership and guidance down to the squad level.
This is key. If you have read about the Soviet military, as I have, you know that a professional NCO corps has never been in the Russian army. NCOs were picked out of basic training and assigned that role. Usually, they were smarter or better conditioned but not experienced. The German army in WWI and WWII had the best NCO corps and that is why they did so well in combat.
I'm coming around to the notion that Russian military leadership has a callous disregard for life. Frightening.
3D chess - Russia wants Europe long-term dependent on it for energy in the form of Russian hydro carbons. What better way to discourage nuclear power than remind the world of Chernobyl?
Phild,
Thanks for the video.
I see some random earth movements and digging. What I do not see is anything that looks like trenches and bunkers of any military nature.
They look like they could have been made any time in the past year. Maybe last week, maybe last April.
I also see "roadblocks" made of 3 tree branches. Less substantial than rubber traffic cones.
Where's Natalie jaresko?
John LGKTQ Henry
"How did Russians get to be so stupid?"
They're human beings, aren't they?
Reap what you sow Russia... f*cking go radioactive for all I care.
I wish a whole Ruskie division had dug it up.... fix them good. Reap what you sow.
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...
"At just one site of extensive trenching a few hundred yards outside the town of Chernobyl, the Russian army had dug an elaborate maze of sunken walkways and bunkers....
But...but...I was assured by (self-appointed) military experts on the Althouse Blog (most likely FSB embeds) that Russians digging trenches at Chernobyl was illogical and didn't make sense!!!"
It's what you do with a bunch of conscripts when there is nothing else to do. You have them dig holes.
PhilD said...
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A55wkMzWIOk"
'Ukraine officials survey Russian dug trenches in Chernobyl exclusion zone's radioactivity levels'
interesting! The radiation levels where the russians were, were SO HIGH, that the Ukrainian officials walked around, wearing NO protection with NO concern for themselves
"Do you think the US is any better?"
An American administration that ordered soldiers to dig trenches in a known radioactive area in today's world would face a lot of heat from the press and voters for such callousness. Even a President as protected by the press as Biden faced heat for the loss of American lives in the cluster fuck of the Afghan pull out. So at least from an accountability standpoint, the US is better.
"The German army in WWI and WWII had the best NCO corps and that is why they did so well in combat."
Though it has nothing to do with your overall point (which I agree with), the Germans did well, but not well enough.
So what I thought was propaganda but left open for it to be true was, indeed, true.
Not sending their best, I see.
Achilles: WWI, the Revolution/Civil War, WWII, 70 years of enforced Communism has left Russia with a birth rate that cannot afford the old "bullet sponge/meat shield" tactics. And then the forces that jumped off into Ukraine were probably the best and most ready they had available (because there are plenty of places they have to keep garrisoned). And looking at the condition of the equipment abandoned a lot in reserve are either cannibalized hulks or rusted into inertia.
In short, I don't now think the Russians have the juice to continue this conventionally.*
*The Chechnya War was when all of the Soviet stuff was fresher, and look at what a grisly crap show that was.
If even half of the stories about Russian military ineptness are true, we could take Moscow in five days with only Girl Scout Troop 427...
Though it has nothing to do with your overall point (which I agree with), the Germans did well, but not well enough.
Oh, that's a given but the army was thrown away on Hitler's fantasy schemes. Remember, he declared war on US on December 8. Had he not done so, Roosevelt might have had opposition to war on Germany. It was Japan, not Germany, that attacked us.
I agree with Robert Cook@1225PM. When you're right, you're right.
Not only is the Russian population declining overall, but Russian women no longer have multiple sons and no longer expect the state to claim at least one of them. In Tsarist Russia a peasant lad conscripted into the army was mourned with a funeral. Even if he survived his 25 years, he might retire 2000 miles away from his village.
Even if we grant German superiority at the tactical and operational levels of leadership and skill (a lot of people like to throw in their Obviously Superior Tanks [tm]) it only shows that those skills can't compensate for poor decision making at the higher levels--which means stupid or non-existent strategy.
For all the Allied and Soviet bumbling, their strategic goals made sense and they developed methods of counteracting or neutralizing whatever advantages the Germans had, using their own strengths. (At great cost, but that's war for you.)
The difference between efficiency in combat and effectiveness in war.
My own webbing about indicates that the problems already mentioned by others are real, and just as important is that the Ukrainians had thought through and wargamed invasion from Russia, and made weaponry, tactics, and organization decisions based on their own familiarity with Russian warmaking.
Imagine what the world would have thought if in 1939 the Poles had forced one whole German army group to a halt and retreat ("previously planned strategic redeployment") and kept the other thrusts to a near crawl.
I was wrong about how far Putin was willing to press his luck, but he doesn't have the most advanced army in the world to make him look like GROFAZ.
I'm agnostic on the Chernobyl details but it wouldn't surprise me.
gilbar said...
PhilD said...
"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A55wkMzWIOk"
'Ukraine officials survey Russian dug trenches in Chernobyl exclusion zone's radioactivity levels'
"interesting! The radiation levels where the russians were, were SO HIGH, that the Ukrainian officials walked around, wearing NO protection with NO concern for themselves"
But you notice they weren't digging holes themselves and they weren't camping there for weeks at a time. I've often wondered how far the small chunks of the containment lid and graphite blocks were thrown in the steam explosion. Not to mention parts of the fuel rods.
Joe Smith.
I doubt it. They would be fighting for THEIR country at that point. I am , however, impressed with just how incompetent their officer corps is.
Hey Rusty... and how incompetent was our officers corps withdrawing from Afghanistan. So I don't have much faith in our Generals...
""interesting! The radiation levels where the russians were, were SO HIGH, that the Ukrainian officials walked around, wearing NO protection with NO concern for themselves""
They weren't the ones 'living' or digging there, now were they?
Besides, it was just a counter-example to "The story is a month old and I've not seen pics anywhere else either." If one doesn't look for them one wont find them and not looking for things (easily found) is a wonderful way to be able to produce BS in 'good conscience'.
Btw. the video referenced isn't from 'a month ago' (because the Russian were there then) but from 7 april 2022 after the Russians Left. And it, like other video's, seem to prove that "month old" story.
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