April 9, 2022

"[O]n a patch of grass lay part of a Tochka-U ballistic missile, about 6ft long, twisted and broken at one end. On the side, someone had daubed 'For the children' in white paint..."

"... a perverse inversion of reality that seemed to paint the attack as revenge for the imagined deaths of children at Ukrainian hands. Ukraine’s defence ministry said the missile had carried cluster sub-munitions, which are designed to kill and maim indiscriminately over a large area and whose use has been widely condemned.... As the warhead detonated, spraying shrapnel across the concourse, it took a horrific toll. Thirty-nine people were killed at the station, another 13 died in hospital.... Stanislav Zagursky, the local police chief, showed me a photograph, taken moments after the blast, of a boy in jeans and a blue coat lying on his back on one of the green-painted benches dotted around the station, his feet tucked up next to him. His head had been blown off. 'The boy was eight years old'... Moments after the attack, a pro-Russia separatist channel claimed Russian forces had launched a strike on what they said were Ukrainian military targets at the train station in Kramatorsk. The post was deleted after the extent of the civilian casualties became clear. Then the Russian defence ministry claimed that Russia did not possess Tochka-U rockets, despite the fact they had been paraded in training exercises in the months before the war...."

From "Civilians from Ukraine went to Kramatorsk station to escape Russia’s attacks. It turned into a killing zone/Putin’s troops targeted a busy railway station with cluster munitions, killing women and children fleeing the violence in Donbas" (London Times).

97 comments:

rhhardin said...

Arm kids with missile launch buttons to make it a fair fight.

Ritchie P said...

Wave that false flag!!

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

I know I should try to avoid arguments about Ukraine. But:

1. In any war zone, anywhere, there is an excellent chance children are being tortured and killed. How does one fasten on one child and say: now we know who is evil, even if we haven't exactly discovered a large group of people who are good?
2. I trust Steve McIntyre on climate, not necessarily on war and foreign policy. He's a smart engineer who loves to get into the weeds. For years the U.S. has not given up the idea that Russia dropped some kind of chemical weapon from the air at Douma in Syria. There is substantial evidence that it is more likely some allies of the U.S. set off some explosions (traces of dangerous chemicals are actually trivial) specifically in order to blame Russia. If the bodies were actually dead, they may have been moved from somewhere else.
3. So for what it's worth. McIntyre engages with @marcelvandenber:
"your diagram proves my point, not yours. After separation, the payload, which is more aerodynamic, travels FARTHER than the body. At Kramatorsk, the tail section is to WSW of payload, thus proving the WSW origin of missile. From territory held by Zelensky regime."

Achilles said...

So the question is why is Joe Biden giving all of this money to Putin so that Putin can keep this war going on?

As soon as this war ends the excuses end for both evil regimes.

Bender said...

UK's Boris Johnson is in Kyiv, meeting with Zelensky.

But how can that be??? We've been told here that Zelensky is not in Kyiv. Must be more disinformation and green screen.

Carol said...

War is hell.

Larry J said...

War is war an hell is hell, and of the two, war is worse.

https://youtu.be/GUeBMwn_eYc

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Bender said...

UK's Boris Johnson is in Kyiv, meeting with Zelensky.

But how can that be??? We've been told here that Zelensky is not in Kyiv. Must be more disinformation and green screen.


And EU President Ursula von der Leyen was there yesterday. Looks like the ol' green screen is getting a real work out!

Browndog said...

I see more and more people are finally discovering there are no good guys in this war.

Russian mothers are losing their sons due to Putin's unnecessary invasion of a sovereign nation. Ukrainians are losing literally everything due to corruptocrat Zelensky being bought and paid for by the West.

American military suppliers don't have to lay anyone off in this shitty economy, so at least there's that-

Michael said...

From Wikipedia

On 24 February 2022, Ukrainian forces launched a missile attack on Russian Millerovo Airbase in Rostov Oblast, using two Tochka-U ballistic missiles in response for the Russian invasion of Ukraine and to prevent further air strikes by the Russian air force against Ukraine.[28] The attack left one Su-30SM destroyed on the ground.[29]

Both sides have the same equipment. Who fired it?

Why do I ask? Follow the Money (or military equipment).

Every time Ukraine has an "Atrocity" they get more money and military equipment.

I trust no propaganda no matter who says it.

M Jordan said...

Saw that CBS, NBC, and ABC has done more coverage on this war than all the others combined in 30+ years.

Narrativeville is dead. We live in PropagandaVille.

Michael K said...

Nobody wins a war like this. The Russians fought much like this in WWII and certainly in Chechnya. We still have lots of people who want the US to get into this war. That is insanity.

Wince said...

On the side, someone had daubed 'For the children' in white paint..."

You mean to tell me Democrats shot that missile?

Joe Smith said...

My default position on any war story, especially one so sensational, is to disbelieve it until corroborated by multiple sources on all sides...

The Ds and the Rs, along with the defense industry (M-I Complex anyone?) are itching for an even bigger war.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

who is president of the US right now?

LA_Bob said...

Like Lloyd Robertson, I read Steve McIntyre's Twitter on Ukraine. Most of his tweets are re-tweets of the work of others. It provides a nice counterpoint to the mainstream narrative of "Russian aggression" and enforces my conviction that I really have no idea what is going on in Ukraine.

I'm sympathetic to the notion the West since the late 1990's was too aggressive pushing NATO up to Russia's doorstep. Losing the Cold War and surrendering Eastern Europe and the western and Asian soviet "republics" must have been an enormous humiliation. It makes no sense to me to corner the beaten bear after the fact. Seems reminiscent of the humiliation of Germany at Versailles, which did not end well.

Narayanan said...

Bender said...
UK's Boris Johnson is in Kyiv, meeting with Zelensky.

But how can that be??? We've been told here that Zelensky is not in Kyiv. Must be more disinformation and green screen.
===========
Or : Putin does not want ever to bomb Kyiv = is safe enough for even Joe Biden to go there

= this war is tragic farce put on by both sides to pile up body count = reasonzzz

rcocean said...

The USA killed tens of thousands of Frenchmen, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, etc. during WW II bombing "railroad yards" in an attempt to disrupt German communications. Railways are legitimate targets. Sometimes you have "collateral damage". if the Russians just wanted to kill civilians (terror bombing) they would just attack Kiev.

The Russian MOD says this is a "false flag" attack. Who knows what the truth is? We'll only know when the war is over. In any case, there ZERO evidence the Russians are committing massive war crimes. They've been doing the exact OPPOSITE - they've been very careful (compared to other wars) in NOT killing civilians.

The same people who were blase about Iraqis. Syrians and Afghans getting bombed and killed or dying through sanctions (like Madeline Albright) are the ones crying and rending their garments over Putin's "War Crimes".

Harsh Pencil said...

Blogger rcocean said... In any case, there ZERO evidence the Russians are committing massive war crimes.

This is insane. The entire war is a war crime for one thing. Yes Ukraine is correct, but corrupt countries have a right to not be invaded and wiped off the face of the earth too. Ukraine is like a battered wife who just wants to be left alone and Russia is the insane husband declaring if he can't have her, no one can.

Rabel said...

The Russians invaded Ukraine. They are the aggressors here.

I'm sorry that some of you are unable to see that because it puts you on the same side as Joe Biden and that is unbearable for you. Get over it. I did.

In the face of ever growing evidence of Russian brutality your rationalizations are getting less realistic every day.

stunned said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IvW3pRAC-c
Children of Donbas, video from 2017. With English subtitles.

Michael said...

None of these articles are written by reporters on the ground. They all come from writes reviewing official statements of various government officials.

These "journalists" are cheerleading s right into WW3

Josephbleau said...

Wars after 2000 have been viewed by amateur web connected digital photography. Everything is documented. I am not sure the battlefield propagandists can be as effective now as in the past. We will eventually sort out the truth. I would say that in war you do what it takes to save the most people with imperfect judgement. But the root cause of any false flags and civilian death is Russia invading another country for bloody conquest. Russia is comfortable with inflicting death to steal wealth. So there is no moral equivalency between Ukraine and Russia. Russia wins the prize.

John henry said...

Looking at the pictures of the tail section in the linked article, I am impressed by how gently it seems to have landed.

I would have expected it to have buried itself in the earth and be more deformed and broken up.

There also seem to be 2 pictures in 2 locations of the same rail section. Little disturbance in either.

What's Natalie Jaresko doing?

John LGKTQ Henry

gilbar said...

rcocean said...
The same people who were blase about Iraqis. Syrians and Afghans getting bombed and killed or dying through sanctions (like Madeline Albright) are the ones crying and rending their garments over Putin's "War Crimes".

i KEEP wondering about This. What happens, the Next time a nation gets blown to bits by US?
People keep talking about 'cluster bombs' and hyperbaric bombs ?
How about MLRS and MOAB's ?
How much depleted Uranium and unexploded munitions are laying on Ukrainian ground
Comparison/Contrast this Ukrainian train station with the highway of death.

America (GOD Bless her) is Better at bombing people back into the Stone Age, than LITERALLY ANYONE else
Mind you, I have NO problems with That.
But all this weeping and wailing about what Animals the russians are makes me worry


ps. Jesus CHRIST! someone was complaining about 'writing things on bombs' THAT is What paint is FOR

Hey Skipper said...

@Lloyd W. Robertson: After separation, the payload, which is more aerodynamic, travels FARTHER than the body. At Kramatorsk, the tail section is to WSW of payload.

If the part of the story about the payload being cluster munitions is true, they are far less aerodynamic than the body.

@rcocean: They've been doing the exact OPPOSITE - they've been very careful (compared to other wars) in NOT killing civilians.


The Russian army has very little in the way of precision guided munitions. Virtually everything they have done is scarcely more advanced than WWII.

"Care" isn't possible; the evidence is widespread and clear they haven't even tried.

The Institute for the Study of War presents a very detailed and dispassionate account of what's going on. Read it.

Rusty said...

"I'm sympathetic to the notion the West since the late 1990's was too aggressive pushing NATO up to Russia's doorstep."
NATO isn't pushed you ask or get invited to join and you have to meet minimum requirements. Now why do you suppose all these former eastern block countries decided to go with NATO? Any ideas?

Chris Lopes said...

Historically speaking, the Russian military is not known for it's subtlety. Being brutal is their basic strategy, as the Germans, the Cheks, the Poles, the Afghans, and the Ukrainians of an earlier age can attest. So no, I don't approach the subject of possible Russian atrocities with the same level of skepticism I would a UFO sighting. The Russians really aren't the good guys here, so they don't get the benefit of doubt.

Butkus51 said...

Time to send in the Transgender Corps.

William said...

The history of the Soviet Union (which includes Ukraine) inspires cynicism. Still, I'm not prepared to admit the possibility that Zelensky is murdering the children of his nation for propaganda purposes....There's legitimate debate about how far we should be involved in Ukraine's fate, but no reasonable person can look at all that destruction and death and not blame Putin....The Ukrainian government is corrupt. So is the government of Russia and, for that matter, Chicago. A corrupt government is not a crime against humanity. The Russian invasion was.

Candide said...

“… imagined deaths of children at Ukrainian hands.”

Death of children Donbas under Ukrainian bombs and missiles in not “imagined”. In the city of Donetsk there is monument “Alley of Angels” with names of children killed since 2014 by Ukrainian bombardments. There is about 160 names engraved there. This is widely known. How can one of the most established media outlets in the world claim it is “imagined”?

There are many lies around this fight, but it looks that the British are lying the most, simply denying the obvious. Why?

Paul Zrimsek said...

"For the children." They went full Hillary. You never go full Hillary.

Bender said...

Who knows what the truth is? We'll only know when the war is over.

We know now, collaborator.

You folks make Howard W Campbell Jr. look credible.

https://youtu.be/OixVPcCbcx0

effinayright said...

rcocean said...
The USA killed tens of thousands of Frenchmen, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, etc. during WW II bombing "railroad yards" in an attempt to disrupt German communications. Railways are legitimate targets. Sometimes you have "collateral damage". if the Russians just wanted to kill civilians (terror bombing) they would just attack Kiev.
******************

Can anyone be any more perversely dense than rcocean?

Yes, railroad yards have been targets in wars----bombing raids against them were routine during WWII , Korea and elsewhere.

But unguided dumb bombs aimed at freight cars, armored vehicles, roundhouses and loading depots are not even REMOTELY the same as targeting guided missiles on passenger train stations filled with civilians.

DERP

(I'll leave the rest of his idiocy about ZERO evidence of Russian war crimes for others to deal with.)

Interested Bystander said...

War is a nasty business and Russian way of war is particulaly nasty. What else is new?

Once written, twice... said...

Ann, what the hell is going on with you commentariat? It looks like some of your long time followers were Russian assets all along.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Thousands of civilians were killed by U.S. in the invasion of Normandy and onward. Facts of artillery and bombing errors.

Douglas B. Levene said...

I can understand isolationists, those who think what happens “over there” has little or no impact here. I don’t agree, but I can understand where they are coming from. What I don’t understand are those who defend Putin or who who buy and repeat his propaganda about Ukraine. This war is easy to understand. Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting for its national independence. If you think the US shouldn’t care about Ukrainian independence or Russia’s imperial ambitions, as I said, I get that. I don’t get the rest of it.

farmgirl said...

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/26/holy-war-vladimir-putin-pope-francis-the-virgin-mary-and-the-fate-of-ukraine/

Howard said...

Okay then. I guess the talking points below express the standard version of MAGA theory:

More innocent people spared from Nazi terror. Crisis actors seen in multiple fake news War crimes. They bombed their own children. Joe Biden paying Putin for more war.

Richard Aubrey said...

LA_Bob. WRT humiliating the Germans with Versailles. Not sure that's the key here. After all, and you could look it up, WW I started BEFORE Versailles. So it's possible that the Germans just like to do that stuff and don't need an excuse.
I mean, just before Prussia became Germany and Germany became Prussia--1870--there were two wars against Denmark, a war against Austria, the Franco-Prussian War and wars of unification. BEFORE Versailles. Has to mean something because it can't mean nothing.

Michael McNeil said...

Institute for the Study of War, daily Ukrainian war assessment, April 8, 2022: [quoting…]

A Russian Tochka-U missile struck a civilian evacuation point at the Kramatorsk rail station on April 8, killing at least 50 and wounding around a hundred evacuees.[11] Russian attempts to deny the strike are completely false. Pro-Russian Telegram channels and the Russian Ministry of Defense initially claimed Russian forces conducted precision strikes on railway stations in Donbas before deleting the claims once heavy civilian casualties emerged.[12] Russian and DNR sources claimed both that the strike did not occur and that Ukrainian forces launched the strike as a false flag, ludicrously claiming that Russian forces do not use the Tochka-U missile—despite the fact Russia designed the Tochka, has demonstrably used it in previous strikes, and confirmed reports that Russia’s 8th Combined Arms Army (operating in Donbas) is equipped with the missile.[13]

[/unQuote]

StephenFearby said...

rcocean said...

"...In any case, there ZERO evidence the Russians are committing massive war crimes. They've been doing the exact OPPOSITE - they've been very careful (compared to other wars) in NOT killing civilians."

Mmmm. Half the people you meet are below average intelligence. Some are a lot below.

Bender said...

Here is video of Boris Johnson and Zelensky walking in some movie soundstage with the green screen making it look like they are walking through the streets of Kyiv, meeting soldiers defending Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1512877771474845700

This is what leadership looks like.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

If we can identify anything the Ukrainians are doing wrong, the Russians must therefore be innocent and justified in invading a sovereign nation. Also, if Russia has ever been treated unfairly in the past 500 years, it explains their desire to achieve "strategic depth" wherever they like.

Because people are worried that the US might get dragged in (a not unreasonable fear) there is this ridiculous overcompensation to make sure we do not in any way think the Russians are wrong.

Drago said...

rcocean: "The same people who were blase about Iraqis. Syrians and Afghans getting bombed and killed or dying through sanctions (like Madeline Albright) are the ones crying and rending their garments over Putin's "War Crimes"."

So very true.

There's quite a few folks across the globe who believe Biden is a war criminal for ordering the drone strike murder of 10 civilians, including 7 children, just to "wag the dog"/change the subject from his astonishingly incompetent if not nefarious withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Joe Smith said...

'In the face of ever growing evidence of Russian brutality your rationalizations are getting less realistic every day.'

Your points are good and valid.

But mine is even simpler: Not our fucking war.

And btw, if you want to send billions to Ukraine, pass a bill in congress first.

PhilD said...

"The Ukrainian government is corrupt."

That seems to be used again and again without however going deep into what that 'corruption' consist of.
There is a discussion how the Russian army was gutted by the corruption of general society. The Ukraine managed from having a weak army in 2014 to having a pretty good and very motivated one. So I have started to think that Ukrainian 'corruption' is the equivalent of all the crap dreamed up by the TDS morons. In 2014 the Ukraine found out that treaties don't mean anything to Russia and that international support doesn't mean that much more. Since then they have been in a fight for their very existence and for a through and through 'corrupt' country they seem to have done very well.

Ps. From a comment on Townhall (not mine);
"For which you cite the Burisma bribery of the Biden Crime Family--equally valid proof that the U.S. is also one of the most corrupt nations on the planet."
Exactly. And if the Ukraine made grievous errors in their search for support I don't call that 'corruption', I'd call that something like 'desperation'.

PhilD said...

"The Ukrainian government is corrupt."

That seems to be used again and again without however going deep into what that 'corruption' consist of.
There is a discussion how the Russian army was gutted by the corruption of general society. The Ukraine managed from having a weak army in 2014 to having a pretty good and very motivated one. So I have started to think that Ukrainian 'corruption' is the equivalent of all the crap dreamed up by the TDS morons. In 2014 the Ukraine found out that treaties don't mean anything to Russia and that international support doesn't mean that much more. Since then they have been in a fight for their very existence and for a through and through 'corrupt' country they seem to have done very well.

Ps. From a comment on Townhall (not mine);
"For which you cite the Burisma bribery of the Biden Crime Family--equally valid proof that the U.S. is also one of the most corrupt nations on the planet."
Exactly. And if the Ukraine made grievous errors in their search for support I don't call that 'corruption', I'd call that something like 'desperation'.

Ahouse Comments said...

But unguided dumb bombs aimed at freight cars, armored vehicles, roundhouses and loading depots are not even REMOTELY the same as targeting guided missiles on passenger train stations filled with civilians.

Are they similar to the destruction of German cities by the 8th Air Force and the RAF in WWII?

How dumb were our bombs?

They were so dumb that it was considered lucky to get within a mile or two of the intended target. Brits were even worse.

OTOH, the US 8th AF had more airmen killed (@50m) over Europe than the Marines did in all the Pacific.(@25m)

I have no moral problem with it, including the fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo or the atomic bombings of Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

I do have some questions about whether it helped end the war. But if it did, I am fine with it.

John LGKTQ Henry

Bender said...

Alexey Bychkov, Russian soldier. Rapes a toddler then shoots him. Posts his crime on Telegram. Reports are that he did it more than once.

rcocean said...

THe problem with the Russia haters is they believe the MSM propaganda. Or maybe they just like getting angry and OUTRAGED over THE CURRENT THING.

THE CURRENT THING is now the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. Facts, reason, history, and military science make no impression. They are OUTRAGED. We got a furriner to hate. Yee haw. Its all simple-simon. White hats v. black hats. Putin is a comic supervillian. Zelensky is batman or superman. Its Hiter, all over again. It always is.

I'm sure its theraputic (sic) to have your 2 minutes of Putin hate, but those of us who deal in reality and don't like war take a more nuanced approach.

Giddy minds and foreign quarrels.

It never changes.

Michael K said...


Blogger Once written, twice... said...

Ann, what the hell is going on with you commentariat? It looks like some of your long time followers were Russian assets all along.


Standard leftist response. Don't want kindergartners lectured about sex before they can read? You are "homophobic!"

Don't like judges apologizing to pedophiles ? "You are racist !"

Ahouse Comments said...

Bender,

I had not realized Howard W Cambell appeared in Slaughterhouse. I never understood that book or the movie.

But Vonnegut's book Mother Night, his very best IMHO, is all about Howard W Campbell, "The Last True American". In it, he was a very highly placed spy sending out coded intelligence every night in his broadcasts.

He was considered extremely valuable to the US war effort.

The movie, with Nick Nolte as Campbell and John Goodman as his US handler, is also excellent. Maybe even better than the book.

Campbell was one of the good guys.

So not a very well crafted insult on your part.

The book/movie poses a very interesting moral conundrum but that is a subject for another thread.

John LGKTQ Henry

Bender said...

I can understand isolationists, those who think what happens “over there” has little or no impact here. I don’t agree, but I can understand where they are coming from.

I understand too. And it is just as disgusting as anything else.

Remember Kitty Genovese?

These people have forfeited the privilege of being called human.

Ahouse Comments said...

Blogger Howard said...

More innocent people spared from Nazi terror. Crisis actors seen in multiple fake news War crimes. They bombed their own children. Joe Biden paying Putin for more war.

Yeah, we don't always have to disagree, Howard. You seem to have nailed it here.

John LGKTQ Henry

Ahouse Comments said...

But mine is even simpler: Not our fucking war.

Amen, amen and amen.

We have no business getting involved in Europe. Especially between 2 corruptacracies like Russia and Ukraine. Fuck 'em both.

We had no business getting involved in 1916, we had no business getting involved in 1939 and we have no business in 2022.

John LGKTQ Henry

rcocean said...

The Russian-Ukrainian "police action" (neither side has declared war) has been remarkable for the restraint shown on both sides. If Russia took the gloves off, the civilian losses would be 10x higher.

How many millions of tons of Bombs did we drop on Vietnam? And in WW2 the allies killed 50,000 French civilians, mostly through bombing. The idea that you can make war without killing civilians is absurd. Its now estimated that almost 200,000 Iraqis died during the war, mostly from US artillery fire and bombing by Us airplanes.

Now, we're supposed to be upset that 50 ukrainians were killed in bombing an railroad? Give me a break!

Rusty said...

"Because people are worried that the US might get dragged in (a not unreasonable fear) there is this ridiculous overcompensation to make sure we do not in any way think the Russians are wrong."
Of course they're wrong. Only an idiot would argue that they are not. That is not to say Ukraine is shining white in this. But I do believe that Ukraine deserves our aid. Just not our military. Putin has dreams of Slavic glory. Just not the army to make it so. For all of you who are breathless at Russia renewing her efforts in the Donbass? Ukraine will kick their ass there too. Russian troops and military leadership will not all of a sudden become competent in eastern Ukraine.

Ahouse Comments said...

You know what I am not seeing in all the talk about atrocities? The old story of tossing babies in the air and catching them on bayonets.

This has always been a standard, go-to atrocity, to propagandize.

I first saw it in about the 6th grade in a book on the War Between the States. I forget whether it was the north accusing the south or vice versa but, since it was the north that invaded, I suspect it was an accusation by the south.

I've seen it in histories of the Crimean War (1850s) WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam.

I have no idea whether it really happened or was just to gin up the punters back home. (Lots of horrible stuff did happen, just not sure about this.)

Has this propaganda gone out of fashion? Have people finally realized it is a cliche too far?

Raping nuns on tables is another atrocity that seems to have gone out of fashion as well.

John LGKTQ Henry

Drago said...

Michael K: "Standard leftist response. Don't want kindergartners lectured about sex before they can read? You are "homophobic!"

Don't like judges apologizing to pedophiles ? "You are racist !"'

Half the Althouse "conservatives" have turned into Joy Reid.

effinayright said...

.house Comments said...
But unguided dumb bombs aimed at freight cars, armored vehicles, roundhouses and loading depots are not even REMOTELY the same as targeting guided missiles on passenger train stations filled with civilians.

Are they similar to the destruction of German cities by the 8th Air Force and the RAF in WWII?

How dumb were our bombs?

They were so dumb that it was considered lucky to get within a mile or two of the intended target. Brits were even worse.
*************
Exactly. That was the way war was waged....then.

But now, using laser-guided precision weapons DELIBERATELY AIMED AT civilian facilities is considered a war crime.

There's more than a nuance involved, but that sees to escape rcocean.

Drago said...

Meanwhile the true strategic threat to the US and its long term interests, besides the democraticals of course, remains the ChiComs...and the neocons/democratical/establishent, all of whom remain fully bought off, so the ChiComs continue merrily on their path to dominance.

But hey, Ukraine Eleventy!

effinayright said...


"Raping nuns on tables is another atrocity that seems to have gone out of fashion as well."
*******

Not in "Game of Thrones".

Drago said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

Ukrainian gas fields. Libyan oil wells. South African mineral resources.

So, both sides have access to similar munitions, with the Kiev regime also wielding Western technology.

A Slavic Spring. Eight years, two years under the current regime in progress. Now they care and an empathetic response.

TaeJohnDo said...

The corrupt, sh!t hole country of Russia invades the corrupt, sh!t hole county Ukraine.

I'm all in favor of supporting the one CSH country that was invaded being supported by our corrupt, sh!t hole administration in order to kill Russians, but no boots on the ground. Really, a wise and astute commenter above said it best: Not our f'ing war.

Also: War is hell.

Mr. Majestyk said...

Wise western leaders would not have talked about Ukraine joining NATO. Not that Ukraine doesn't have the right to join NATO, if invited. But a nuclear-armed authoritarian country strenuously opposed the idea. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't make it a good idea.

Having said that, Russia is the aggressor here. Russia is responsible for many innocent deaths in a war of aggression. I do believe that, if it really wanted to massacre civilians, it could have killed far more than it has. Of course, Russia doesn't deserve a medal for not killing as many innocent civilians as it could have.

Having said THAT, the government of Ukraine is corrupt and not some sort of bastion of Jeffersonian ideals. It was part of the Soviet monstrosity for 70 years. Could it conduct false flag attacks against its own citizens. It would not shock me.

The bottom line is that, given the media's track record of brazen lies since at least 2016 and its more recent behavior as the mouthpiece for the Biden administration, I don't know which news reports are true and which are false. I do know that we should stay the hell out of it militarily.

Ann Althouse said...

"Ann, what the hell is going on with you commentariat? It looks like some of your long time followers were Russian assets all along."

Your guess is as good as mine. I have no more information about them than you do. Go ahead and smoke them out!

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Richard Aubrey said...

LA_Bob. WRT humiliating the Germans with Versailles. Not sure that's the key here. After all, and you could look it up, WW I started BEFORE Versailles. So it's possible that the Germans just like to do that stuff and don't need an excuse.

I mean, just before Prussia became Germany and Germany became Prussia--1870--there were two wars against Denmark, a war against Austria, the Franco-Prussian War and wars of unification. BEFORE Versailles. Has to mean something because it can't mean nothing.


Yes, it meant something because the Prussians dictated armistice terms to the French at Versailles in 1871. You seem to have missed that, so lay off LA_Bob.

Bender said...

"Ann, what the hell is going on with you commentariat? It looks like some of your long time followers were Russian assets all along."

Weak-kneed amoral isolationists, anti-global conspiracy nutcases, dupes, sympathizers, and collaborators.

But then there are too many of the others -- the silent ones. The ones who are still around -- they still comment elsewhere -- but they have nothing to say on Ukraine. They too are complicit and their silence allows the pestilence to fester.

And the ones who childishly turn this into some partisan left-right thing don't help either.

MikeR said...

Uh: https://twitter.com/ClimateAudit/status/1512805198527401988?cxt=HHwWiMC4iYOUyP4pAAAA
Does our media even bother to check these things?

Marc in Eugene said...

Now, we're supposed to be upset that 50 Ukrainians were killed in bombing a railroad? Give me a break!

This is a disgusting bit of evidence of how de-sensitized to evil too many of us have become.

n.n said...

serial number of Kramatorsk missile Ш91579 has been located in one of the photos and firmly linked to Ukraine inventory.

"Does our media even bother to check these things?"

The haze of social justice. All's fair in lust and abortion.

n.n said...

ClimateAudit/status/1512805198527401988

Ironically, the climate cooling... warming... change agenda, and environmentalism specifically, among diverse NGOs and non-profits, has been linked to Russian financing, and other sources competing with American energy, capital, business, science, education, etc.

MikeR said...

"It looks like some of your long time followers were Russian assets all along." And that's because some people would like to get stories right before exploding? Because other people, once they've decided who the bad guys are, are all ready to believe every atrocity about the bad guys, and brush off anything negative about the good guys?
I think some of the bad guys are the ones who want this war to get bigger and bigger, and who make sure every story is designed to do that.

Narr said...

Richard Aubrey lists Prussian-German wars (1864, 1866, 1870) and adds "and wars of unification." But those wars WERE the wars of unification.

As for what Germans just like to do, in the mid 19th C national unifications were all the rage. Why shouldn't Germans have united? Seriously. We fought an enormously bloody war of unification ourselves; maybe Lincoln is our Bismarck.

In 1848, among the many rebellions, uprisings, and civil wars that never quite turned into a Revolution (as AJP Taylor put it, a historical turning point where history failed to turn) one controversy was the oppression of the German-speaking minority of Schleswig-Holstein by the Danes. Germans of every party, class, region, country, and religion supported their brethren, and when the Tsar (and the Brits) forced the Prussians to stand down and withdraw, mass protests broke out throughout the Germanies, demanding justice even if that included war with Russia.

No, the problem isn't anything inherent in Germans, any more than current problems are because of flaws inherent in Russians.



Hey Skipper said...

Manifest Destiny. Lebensraum. Russian Imperium.

Okay, I can't remember off hand what the official term is for that last, but the point remains: each of these is similar in kind.

Putin is certain that Moscow is entitled to be the center of power for the entire area that he perceives to be part of the greater Russian nation.

Since WWII, the most important change in international relations is that international boundaries are not to be changed by force. To the extent that has held, the world has become far more peaceful. Otherwise — Korea, Vietnam spring to mind — the results are horrible.

Putin decided the Russian Imperium trumped that, and that the correlation of forces were conducive to his goals: Ukrainians would welcome Russians as liberators; Russian armor would present overwhelming force; and, Western nations would take the path of least resistance.

He was epically wrong in all regards, excusably only with regard to the latter.

The Russian military is at a technical level of the US thirty years ago in Desert Storm, where about 10% of the munitions were precision guided. Today, I doubt if any US weapons that aren't rifle bullets or artillery rounds aren't PGMs. One of the most fundamental tenets of military doctrine is economy of force. PGMs, detailed surveillance, and extensive command and control make it possible to inflict only the amount of destruction at the point where it is most necessary. (US air dropped munitions have gotten smaller over the last 20 years.)

Yes, the US has made mistakes. The death of 13 or so innocent Afghanis at the end of our tragically inept withdrawal being but one example. However, civilian deaths and massive collateral damage are never the goal of US tactics.

In contrast, the Russia is both incapable of economizing force, and seems unconcerned about the consequences.

With regard to Russia and NATO, the countries wishing to join NATO weren't applying on a whim. Rather, they were looking for shelter from a very threatening and implacable neighbor. If Russia is to get away with destroying a member of the UN (not that the UN is worth a tinker's damn, but that is for another day), then where does the contagion of altering boundaries by force stop?

It isn't all bad news, though. What almost no one saw coming (I sure didn't) is the predominance of defense over offense, even more so than Clausewitz's 3:1 advantage. Man portable anti-armor and anti-air systems are making an absolute hash of the Russian offensive, to the point where it could very well end up in complete defeat.

That is good news for the entire world, starting with Taiwan.

We absolutely need to keep out of any direct conflict with Russia, to the point of ignoring even a couple attacks on NATO territory. At the same time, we need to supply the Ukrainians with all the materiel they need to continue eviscerating the Russian army.

(Bona fides: 20 years in the Air Force, tactical aviation. Desert Storm at operational through planning levels. Several years at the Pentagon on the Europe and NATO planning staff.)

Drago said...

Bender, the self-anointed Keyboard Audie Murphy of Althouse blog: "Weak-kneed amoral isolationists, anti-global conspiracy nutcases, dupes, sympathizers, and collaborators.

But then there are too many of the others -- the silent ones. The ones who are still around -- they still comment elsewhere -- but they have nothing to say on Ukraine. They too are complicit and their silence allows the pestilence to fester."

Bender refuses to speak out against the real threat to US interests: the ChiComs.

Therefore, Bender is an amoral anti-American commie collaborator who bows to Beijing.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

One set of rhetorical rules for everyone.

Everyone.

Achilles said...

Bender said...

"I can understand isolationists, those who think what happens “over there” has little or no impact here. I don’t agree, but I can understand where they are coming from."

I understand too. And it is just as disgusting as anything else.

Remember Kitty Genovese?

These people have forfeited the privilege of being called human.


Please elaborate on this.

What I have seen so far from you and the rest of these warmongers is just a bunch of hypocritical bull shit.

If you did you would get on a plane and go fight.

I went to 2 different countries to fight for your and other people's freedom. I was betrayed both times by arm chair Americans. I watched you people turn your back on us in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now you want to pretend to care about Ukrainians? Give me a break.

I don't think you give two shits about any of these people.

Now a bunch of shitty cowards want to call me subhuman because I pointed out that Joe Biden financed this war?

You need to start thinking about your words. Because soon you might get to be face to face with the people who have actually seen the rooster.

Achilles said...

Bender said...

And the ones who childishly turn this into some partisan left-right thing don't help either.

I am pointing out that if you want to keep Putin from attacking his neighbors it is really easy to do. Trump managed it. Bush/Obama/Biden failed. It is that simple.

But Joe Biden purposely did not do those things.

If you want to be a fucking tool go ahead.

It is people like you that make sure these wars will keep happening.

You caused this Bender.

You.

rcocean said...

The missile was aimed at a railroad station. What do think the allies were trying to bomb in WW2? Hit the railway tracks - ten miles out of town? When 1 out 100 allied bombs actually hit their target they killed anyone in the railway station and yard. French railworkers, French passengers, etc.

You can go on Youtube and see gun photos of Allied fighters strafing French and German trains. You think none of those trains were passenger trains? You think the fighter pilots checked the train passenger list before they opened up with 6-8 .50 cal machine guns?

Now, its OMG a missle hit a Ukrainian train depot. How Sadaam Iraqi train depots were bombed by the USA? How many Serbian Civilians were killed by Billy bob Clinton?

Maynard said...

Ann, what the hell is going on with you commentariat? It looks like some of your long time followers were Russian assets all along.

My sworn oath: I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party.

Oops! Make that the Republican-Putin Party.

rcocean said...

A Russian Ass sit.

A Russian Ass sit is
Anything
A liberal/globalist
or
Ukranian/NATO Ass sit
Doesn't
Like.

rcocean said...

Funny how we
Russian Ass sits
Care about
American Assets and lives.

While Globalist/Ukrainian
Ass sits
Don't.

Bring on WW III
Says Anne
Applebum
We should not
be
Causualty Adverse.

Candide said...

"Ann, what the hell is going on with you commentariat? It looks like some of your long time followers were Russian assets all along."

Go ahead, report every traitor forthwith. There is too much at stake!

Bender said...

Joe Biden purposely did not do those things.
You caused this Bender.


I don't see the connection. Bender didn't vote for Joe Biden.

In fact, Bender told anyone that would listen that a vote for Biden was a vote for national suicide.

And Biden's weakness was precisely the invitation to war that led Russia to invade, and encourages China to want Taiwan and Iran to get nukes and use them.

And it is YOU PEOPLE who are pushing the exact same weakness as Joe Biden, who like you likes to shoot his mouth off. Hiding under your beds isn't going to stop the evildoers.

But making this a Biden vs. Trump thing is the height of ignorance because this is about RUSSIA the wannabe New Soviet Union, the Evil Empire.

gilbar said...

Bender said...
Remember Kitty Genovese?

So, Bender? your point is, that The Whole Ukraine thing is made up? That NONE of happened the way the media said?
Just checking

You Do Have, at least a vague idea what happened with Kitty's murder?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese
if you don't you Should.
. A 2007 study found many of the purported facts about the murder to be unfounded, stating there was "no evidence for the presence of 38 witnesses, or that witnesses observed the murder, or that witnesses remained inactive"

Rusty said...

"A Slavic Spring. Eight years, two years under the current regime in progress. Now they care and an empathetic response."
The graft must continue by any means necessary.
Bender said," And Biden's weakness was precisely the invitation to war that led Russia to invade, and encourages China to want Taiwan and Iran to get nukes and use them.

And it is YOU PEOPLE who are pushing the exact same weakness as Joe Biden, who like you likes to shoot his mouth off. Hiding under your beds isn't going to stop the evildoers.

But making this a Biden vs. Trump thing is the height of ignorance because this is about RUSSIA the wannabe New Soviet Union, the Evil Empire."
I'll say it again. This did not have to happen. It IS Trumps foreign policies vs whatever the f*ck is running the former vice presidents administration. Leftists, Democrats and you never Trumpers. Your stupid arrogance caused all this misery. You wanna fight Russians, Bender? Then man up and suit up and get your wide American ass over there and show them how its done.

Achilles said...

Bender said...

And it is YOU PEOPLE who are pushing the exact same weakness as Joe Biden, who like you likes to shoot his mouth off. Hiding under your beds isn't going to stop the evildoers.

Putin doesn't give a shit what cowards like you bluster about. He knows you are an empty suit.

When push comes to shove people like you pull out and fuck those of us who actually went to back up your bullshit words. The US has a pattern.

Putin cares what the price of oil is. Putin cares about what people DO. And he knows you are good for doing nothing and quitting halfway through when casualties start.

No money. No invasions.

Seeing a bunch of caterwauling twats call other people Putin poodles and submhumans gives Putin a boner.

He knows you are worthless douchebags listening to the media and following Biden. Biden and Putin are working together to keep this war going as long as possible. They both need it and Putin knows the guy he gave money to will stay bought.

Go F yourself.

Achilles said...

Marc said...

Now, we're supposed to be upset that 50 Ukrainians were killed in bombing a railroad? Give me a break!

This is a disgusting bit of evidence of how de-sensitized to evil too many of us have become.

Now do the thousands murdered and millions raped by the Taliban and ISIS after we pulled out you piece of shit.

Achilles said...

Bender said...

But making this a Biden vs. Trump thing is the height of ignorance because this is about RUSSIA the wannabe New Soviet Union, the Evil Empire.


Ignoring the Clinton/Bush/Obama/Bush/Biden vs. Trump "thing" is why this war happened.

Again this war happened because stupid people like you ignore what is really going on here.

You played right into Putin's hands.

You have a chance to walk back your stupidity and bullshit now.

Drago said...

Bender: "And it is YOU PEOPLE who are pushing the exact same weakness as Joe Biden, who like you likes to shoot his mouth off. Hiding under your beds isn't going to stop the evildoers."

Bender became Eric Swalwell/Max Boot/Rachel Maddow so quickly it caused whiplash....and Bender's ChiCom allies appreciate his mono-focus on Russia and ignoring the real threat to the US, which is China.

Candide said...

Wow, Bender is actually a complex character with various beliefs and convictions, like a real human being. Perhaps one day Bender will learn that all people are complex characters and deserve consideration and understanding.

Narr said...

"Wow, Bender is actually a complex character with various beliefs and convictions, like a real human being."

Let's not be hasty.

MikeR said...

And https://twitter.com/ClimateAudit/status/1513199629478858758?cxt=HHwWjMC41fbC-_8pAAAA
More and more looking likely that it was a Ukrainian missile, fired from Ukrainian-controlled territory.

GrapeApe said...

There really isn’t a “right” side in the conflict. Ukraines have done better than expected, Russians have performed to their low standards. Rotten tires and such. Russia will eventually get what Putin wants, but at tremendous expense. They will have no viable military force for decades. Ukraine comes out looking better even though they lose. Mistake was made when Ukraine surrendered their nukes. Without that event, this would never have happened.