"How far Putin is willing to go—that’s not known by anyone. Obviously, he is trying to realize his own conception about the structure of the world and Ukraine... I don’t have much hope for Ukraine’s negotiations with Vladimir Medinsky, our former minister of culture, who is passionate about the principle that 'truth is what is beneficial to Russia.' This is a joke... I think the plan is to divide Ukraine. With the Western part of the country, whose center is Lviv, the thinking is, Let them live as they want. Central Ukraine, with the center in Kyiv, will have the government that Putin requires, one that is oriented toward Moscow and not the West. And, as for the east, the whole Donbas will be accepted into Russia. Around eight hundred thousand people there were just given Russian passports.... Putin will never leave power of his own will.... His entourage is quite convinced that 'Without Putin, there is no Russia.' ... But the younger generations of Russians, from whom the world and the future are now being taken away, no longer believe this."
Said Dmitry Muratov, quoted in "How Russia’s Nobel-Winning Newspaper Is Covering Ukraine/'We continue to call war war,' Dmitry Muratov, the editor of Novaya Gazeta, said. 'We are waiting for the consequences'" (The New Yorker).
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42 comments:
I call BS on that. Putin has wide support. Nobody likes sanctions and economic hardships, but it doesn't change the fact, that Russians like the very old idea of the Russian empire.
tds: very true. Russians also have a history of murdering their emperor's. Had this conversation last night. The only way to get rid of Putin is for the Russians to do it.
What’s to worry with Biden on the job!?!?
"I think the plan is to divide Ukraine. With the Western part of the country, whose center is Lviv, the thinking is, Let them live as they want."
This gave me an ironic chuckle. Lviv was Polish prior to the 1940 Soviet invasion. Germany and the Soviets divided Poland between them, only the Soviets got to keep their conquests after the war. It's almost as if the Russians are saying, "you can have it back."
Putin's Speech Justifying the Invasion
Excerpts:
.... over the past 30 years we have been patiently trying to come to an agreement with the leading NATO countries regarding the principles of equal and indivisible security in Europe. In response to our proposals, we invariably faced either cynical deception and lies or attempts at pressure and blackmail, while the North Atlantic alliance continued to expand despite our protests and concerns. Its military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border. ...
... a bloody military operation was waged against Belgrade, without the UN Security Council’s sanction but with combat aircraft and missiles used in the heart of Europe. The bombing of peaceful cities and vital infrastructure went on for several weeks.
Then came the turn of Iraq, Libya and Syria. The illegal use of military power against Libya and the distortion of all the UN Security Council decisions on Libya ruined the state, created a huge seat of international terrorism, and pushed the country towards a humanitarian catastrophe, into the vortex of a civil war, which has continued there for years. ....
A similar fate was also prepared for Syria. The combat operations conducted by the Western coalition in that country without the Syrian government’s approval or UN Security Council’s sanction can only be defined as aggression and intervention.
.... in the 1990s and the early 2000s, when the so-called collective West was actively supporting separatism and gangs of mercenaries in southern Russia. What victims, what losses we had to sustain and what trials we had to go through at that time before we broke the back of international terrorism in the Caucasus! We remember this and will never forget. ...
... with NATO’s eastward expansion the situation for Russia has been becoming worse and more dangerous by the year. Moreover, these past days NATO leadership has been blunt in its statements that they need to accelerate and step up efforts to bring the alliance’s infrastructure closer to Russia’s borders. ...
Any further expansion of the North Atlantic alliance’s infrastructure or the ongoing efforts to gain a military foothold of the Ukrainian territory are unacceptable for us. ...
... the forces that staged the coup in Ukraine in 2014 [the Maidan protest against elected President Yanukovych] have seized power, are keeping it with the help of ornamental election procedures and have abandoned the path of a peaceful conflict settlement.
.... Russia cannot feel safe, develop, and exist while facing a permanent threat from the territory of today’s Ukraine.
Let me remind you that in 2000–2005 we used our military to push back against terrorists in the Caucasus and stood up for the integrity of our state. We preserved Russia. In 2014, we supported the people of Crimea and Sevastopol.
In 2015, we used our Armed Forces to create a reliable shield that prevented terrorists from Syria from penetrating Russia. This was a matter of defending ourselves. We had no other choice.
The same is happening today. They did not leave us any other option for defending Russia and our people, other than the one we are forced to use today. In these circumstances, we have to take bold and immediate action. The people’s republics of Donbass have asked Russia for help. ...
In 2014 [after Maidan], Russia was obliged to protect the people of Crimea and Sevastopol from those who you yourself call “nats.” The people of Crimea and Sevastopol made their choice in favour of being with their historical homeland, Russia, and we supported their choice. ...
Very interesting article. I also heard an interesting interview while driving yesterday. It was Megyn Kelly interviewing Garry Kasparov. Mr. Kasparov has watched and studied Putin for many years and has long been an anti-Putin voice. Kelly may or may not irritate you, but what she does well in her interviews is to let the interviewee talk. And Kasparov does have much to say.
Here is a link to that podcast: Megyn Kelly with Garry Kasparov on the world's response to Putin
THE US COUP IN UKRAINE - EXPLAINED, video from January 2022
Stephen Cohen on the Russia-Ukraine Crisis, a video from April 2014, following the expulsion of Ukraine's President Yanukovych from his elected position
Except that Russian troops are shelling the Russian-speaking areas in the east. And all those Russian-speaking Ukrainians have long known that if they wanted to live under Russian rule, they were always free to move into Russia. But they didn't.
There is no reason to automatically think that, except for the "migrant" silent invaders who have infiltrated the area over the last few years, the majority or even large numbers of the Russian-speakers in eastern Ukraine do not consider themselves Ukrainian and not Russian.
These things happen slow, then they happen fast.
In a country where you get thrown in jail for not supporting the ruler, their popularity is always overstated by public polling.
I think the fast part is coming for Putin.
"trying to realize his own conception about the structure of the world and Ukraine"
You mean, just like any other Russian ruler for the past few centuries? In fact, like any other ruler of any other great power since forever?
"'truth is what is beneficial to Russia.' This is a joke"
No. It is itself a hard truth.
'Without Putin, there is no Russia.'
Or someone very much like Putin.
It's all very well for the West to take a stand. But the next step is to make a deal. Find the most mutually acceptable middle ground at the least overall cost. Of course, what counts as middle has now shifted. That is the point of the invasion.
Correction to my comment at 8:06 AM
Stephen Cohen on the Russia-Ukraine Crisis, a video from April 2014, following the expulsion of Ukraine's President Yanukovych from his elected position
Mark at 8:38 AM
There is no reason to automatically think that, except for the "migrant" silent invaders who have infiltrated the area over the last few years, the majority or even large numbers of the Russian-speakers in eastern Ukraine do not consider themselves Ukrainian and not Russian.
This map illustrates the 2010 Presidential election in Ukraine. The two eastern regions voted more than 91% for Viktor Yanukovych, who ran on a platform of improving relations with Russia.
They voted that way, because they consider themselves to be Russian, not Ukrainian.
======
Notice also that Crimea voted more than 81% for Yanukovych, and the city of Sevastopol voted more than 88% for him.
Those Crimean populations consider themselves to be Russian, not Ukrainian, and that is why they voted overwhelmingly in 2014 to secede from Ukraine and join Russia.
======
Those Russian populations were living peacefully in Ukraine until 2014, when the Maidan protests in Kyiv compelled Yanukovych to abdicate from his elected position and to flee Ukraine.
The recent photos of Putin sitting at the far end of these ridiculously long tables reminds me of something out of Chaplin's The Great Dictator. He's out of touch, figuratively and literally.
I agree that he's not going to go gently into that that good night. Problem is who is going to remove him. After Stalin, you had the Politburo that good force a leader out. Now, I guess it would have to be some sort of military coup. I imagine that Putin has taken precautions against that.
col-douglas-macgregor explains = adult to adult
REMEMBER [KEEP IN MIND] Putin remembers 30 years : Biden cannot remember 30 minutes
I hope Achilles is right. This only works if Putin's nuclear football was made by Fischer Price.
After Brandon's blustering and threatening speech last night, I'm sure Putin is terrified.
This endless hatred and mindreading of Putin gets wearisome. Garry Kasparov has been hating and attacking Putin forever. He's a liberal Russian who left Russia.
To all these people Putin is a Right-wing hate figure. A sort of a Russian Trump. Remember Alinsky's rules? Pick a target, freeze it, attack it. Its always the same technique. You get the dumbo liberal press/personalities slinging insults and making bad jokes, on one side, and then you get the Herr Prefesser super-serious analysis from the New Yorker or the NYT's on the other.
But the message is the same: Hate Target XYZ because they're pushing back against the liberl/left globalist world order. Of course, just because people are lying and smearing Putin doesn't make him our friend or a good guy. But I'm tired of reading useless crap about him.
so Putin is the replacement figure for Trunp for US media
Make no mistatke this isn't all about Putin. Russia doesn't want a hostile Ukraine on its borders, thinks the Crimea belongs to Russia, and wants the Russian minority to be treated properly. All these positions are supported by most Russians.
Constantly PERSONALIZING everything makes people miss the real issues.
If an hostile, anti-American Mexican Goverment was moving toward a miliatry alliance with Russia and China, and threatening American citizens and property, it wouldn't be a Joe Biden problem, it would be a USA problem.
CWJ said...
This gave me an ironic chuckle. Lviv was Polish prior to the 1940 Soviet invasion. Germany and the Soviets divided Poland between them, only the Soviets got to keep their conquests after the war. It's almost as if the Russians are saying, "you can have it back."
Irony aside; I've heard some of the more credible Russia experts say that this may be Putin's mind set. It also makes sense that he'd only want the eastern half (plus maybe a strip of territory extending west that included Odessa) since that would give him Black Sea access.
"No one here is on Putin's side. "
Except for Mike Sylwester, who is desperately eager to spread Putin's propaganda.
Poor Putin. He spent a lot of money getting Yanukovych elected, and then that big meanie Obama got him tossed out!
Here, Mike, I'm going to use small words, so that even you can understand:
1: Russia is a shithole country, and has been for the entirety of its existence
2: Putin is a thug who wants to be a Communist dictator
3: Communist dictators have no legitimate "interests"
4: Shithole countries have no "right" the threaten non-shithole countries
5: The only "threat" that NATO presents to Russia is that it will try to keep Russia, and Putin, from enslaving the people who managed to escape from the USSR
6: The only country on Russia's border that actually poses a real threat to Russia is China. Everyone else just wants the Russian assholes to leave them alone
7: Everyone else has a right not to want the Russian assholes to abuse them
So, you can whah, whah, whah all you want about how poor innocent Putin isn't being allowed to bully and / or enslave those outside of Russia
What you do with that is prove that you are a scumbag
What you don't prove with that is that Putin's actions have any legitimacy.
Because they don't
Obviously, he is trying to realize his own conception about the structure of the world and Ukraine... I don’t have much hope for Ukraine’s negotiations with Vladimir Medinsky, our former minister of culture, who is passionate about the principle that 'truth is what is beneficial to Russia.' This is a joke... I think the plan is to divide Ukraine. With the Western part of the country, whose center is Lviv, the thinking is, Let them live as they want. Central Ukraine, with the center in Kyiv, will have the government that Putin requires, one that is oriented toward Moscow and not the West. And, as for the east, the whole Donbas will be accepted into Russia
The problem with that, as anyone with the slightest bit of historical knowledge recognizes, is that once Putin's established his new "Russian border", Western Ukraine will be a "close threat" that needs to be "dealt with". Because after all, there's NATO, right on the border of a Putin "client State".
The fact that they've been cluster bombing a majority Russian population city that was already in the "Russian sphere of influence" is just amazing.
Putin's now made it so that even the "ethnic Russians" don't want anything to do with him.
They're going to be facing a guerrilla war in any part of Ukraine that they try to control. And Russia does not have the resources to sustain that kind of war, and doesn't have the ability to throw down an Iron Curtain to keep supplies and fighters from coming in to support his opposition.
The proper response is now: Russia loses everything they've ever had in Ukraine.
Followed by "Russian oligarchs assassinate Putin", one devoutly hopes
tds said...
I call BS on that. Putin has wide support. Nobody likes sanctions and economic hardships, but it doesn't change the fact, that Russians like the very old idea of the Russian empire.
rcocean said...
Make no mistatke this isn't all about Putin. Russia doesn't want a hostile Ukraine on its borders, thinks the Crimea belongs to Russia, and wants the Russian minority to be treated properly. All these positions are supported by most Russians.
I call BS on both of you.
1: Ukraine is only "hostile" to Russia in that it doesn't want to be dominated by Russia.
However much that puts a burr up Putin's butt, the average Russian couldn't care less
2: Right now Russia is "treating" the Russian minority by bombing them with cluster bombs.
Again, none of the actual Russian give a shit about the "Russian minority" in any of the neighboring countries. They want their own lives made better. And Putin's fucking that up
3: Putin has "wide support" in public opinion polls in a country where openly disparaging Putin can get you murdered. You have to be a serious moron to claim that those polls have any validity.
We can't get honest political polls in the US because of the partisan interest driving the pollsters, and that's with no ability to kill the people who say the wrong things.
You're seriously going to try to claim that you can get honest political polls out of Russia?
4: One of Putins' recent "reforms" was cutting the Russian military conscription period from 2 years to 1. He didn't do that because there was such a huge groundswell of support for the "Russian Empire" that they were overwhelmed with volunteers and didn't need the draft.
He did it because there was so little support for his "Russian Empire" that he needed to cut back the conscription time to keep the dissatisfaction of the Russian people down to the point that he didn't get tossed
This move, BTW, has been crippling the Russian Army, because when you only have a year to train and use 1/2 your soldiers, you don't get much use out of them.
So, apparently ads and rcocean are pro-Putin, too
Which is sad
Re: comments by Greg the Class Traitor
All of us are angry and upset, but "Communist dictators have no legitimate "interests" is exactly the type of thinking that leads to people who glow in the dark. Guessing you didn't come of age during the Cuban missile crisis.
"since that would give him Black Sea access."
FFS, look at the map. He already had Black Sea access even before annexing Crimea.
Also, the West keeps Odessa at all cost. It's a *very* nice tourist destination for hundreds of years.
"3: Putin has 'wide support' in public opinion polls in a country where openly disparaging Putin can get you murdered."
You probably think Xi doesn't have wide support in China.
Pro-putin? Just Pro-American.
Most of the Anti-Putin types are also the globalist, open borders, anti-nationalist freaks who hate America 1.0.
Correlation is not causation. But still lots of correlation.
Blogger TickTock said...
Re: comments by Greg the Class Traitor
All of us are angry and upset, but "Communist dictators have no legitimate "interests" is exactly the type of thinking that leads to people who glow in the dark. Guessing you didn't come of age during the Cuban missile crisis.
I agree with you. I remember the Cuban missile crisis very well. I was in medical school. Like then, we had a weak president who invited the Russians to over reach. Not even Kennedy would keep buying Russian oil and funding their foreign adventure, though.
Interestingly enough, I am in agreement with much of what greg the clown prince is saying. Although I also agree with Ticktock's point. I don't know Greg, but with his fetish for violent fantasy revenge pornography, my guess is he's never truly been in a situation where he has had to utilize the cliche that discretion is the better part of valor.
‘To die is to be a counterfeit, for he is but the counterfeit of a man who hath not the life of a man; but to counterfeit dying when a man thereby liveth is to be no counterfeit, but the true and perfect image of life indeed. The better part of valor is discretion, in the which better part I have saved my life.’
TickTock said...
Re: comments by Greg the Class Traitor
All of us are angry and upset, but "Communist dictators have no legitimate "interests" is exactly the type of thinking that leads to people who glow in the dark. Guessing you didn't come of age during the Cuban missile crisis.
Yours is the kind of thinking that led to the 20 million+ dead of WWII, North Korea still enslaved and starved, 50k dead in Vietnam, the Vietnamese boat people, the Khmer Rouge, and 1/3 of Cambodia dead.
"Containment" is bullshit. Any time they push, you alive off whatever they pushed, and roll back some of what they already had.
Or else you continue to get pushed, and millions die.
Never, ever, ever reward terrorists
Why should any commenter here be surprised or dismayed by pro Putin sentiment being expressed by Trump supporters? Trump set the example and his followers…followed. It’s comical how some are trying to distance themselves from Trump and Putin, while some just can’t break away.
Blogger Inga said...
Why should any commenter here be surprised or dismayed by pro Putin sentiment being expressed by Trump supporters? Trump set the example and his followers…followed. It’s comical how some are trying to distance themselves from Trump and Putin, while some just can’t break away.
It's like old times to see this stupid here.
Inga
The Putin puppet is Biden, the guy who put the brakes on US oil production and took the country from energy independence to importing oil from Russia. At $100 a barrel. Basically financing Putin’s adventure in Ukraine. There is your Russian puppet. Joe Biden. POTUS.
"Russia doesn't want a hostile Ukraine on its borders"
Nothing says "let's be friends" like an invasion.
"Why should any commenter here be surprised or dismayed by pro Putin sentiment being expressed by Trump supporters?"
You must be reading a different blog than I am. Most of the commenters here (who also happen to be pro-Trump, unlike me) are expressing very negative views of Putin. I realize that like Howard, you seem to see every post as an opportunity to attack people you don't like, but lying about what they are saying is makes the attack look stupid.
tds said...
"3: Putin has 'wide support' in public opinion polls in a country where openly disparaging Putin can get you murdered."
You probably think Xi doesn't have wide support in China.
You really are a moron, aren't you.
Xi hasn't left China in two years. Why?
Because he's afraid if he leaves, he'll be deposed as "Dear Leader" before he gets back.
Here's a good heuristic, that even someone as stupid as you can use:
popular leaders don't need to lock up or assassinate people for challenging them or questioning their actions.
That's the action of an insecure ruler who's aware that if he ever lets people start talking, it will probably end with him gone, because he's such a shit ruler
Scoring cheap political points does not help Ukraine one bit.
rcocean said...
Pro-putin? Just Pro-American.
Bzzt:
To quote you:
Make no mistatke this isn't all about Putin. Russia doesn't want a hostile Ukraine on its borders, thinks the Crimea belongs to Russia, and wants the Russian minority to be treated properly. All these positions are supported by most Russians.
Constantly PERSONALIZING everything makes people miss the real issues.
If an hostile, anti-American Mexican Goverment was moving toward a miliatry alliance with Russia and China, and threatening American citizens and property, it wouldn't be a Joe Biden problem, it would be a USA problem.
That is brainless pro-Putin drivel and anti-American moral equivalence
"Russia doesn't want a hostile Ukraine on its borders". Oh, really? Do tell. What has this "hostile Ukraine" been doing to Russia?
Have they been sending in terrorist teams to sabotage things?
Have they been attacking / invading / trying to steal Russian land?
Have they been cutting of Russia access to critical Russian resources?
No, they haven't done any of that? They've just refused to be Putin's slaves?
The horror!
"wants the Russian minority to be treated properly"
1: What's your evidence that any non-politician in Russia gives a shit about that?
2: Exactly what are the hours that Ukraine has been dealing out to the "Russian minority" over the last couple of years?
"thinks the Crimea belongs to Russia"
That's nice. Now, how many of them care more about that, than about the current price of vodka? 1%?
Most of the Anti-Putin types are also the globalist, open borders, anti-nationalist freaks who hate America 1.0.
Correlation is not causation. But still lots of correlation.
Stalin hated Hitler. Hitler hated Stalin
They were both right, the other one was a total shit
Putin has spent his entire life being an enemy of the US. Even when the US was going after mutual enemies, Putin was still doing his best to fuck with us, rather than support us, or even just get out of the way.
If you're pro-American, you're anti-Putin
Now, would it be perfectly reasonable for you to say "Let me know when President Brandon has reversed all his policies that have cut US oil production and driven up prices, because until then he's not serious."
It's perfectly reasonable to say "I hope Putin loses in Ukraine, but I don't see any reason why the US should get involved."
It is not reasonable, legitimate, or pro-American to pretend that Putin has any legitimate reasons for invading Ukraine.
Last I checked, that's what you are doing
Inga said...
Why should any commenter here be surprised or dismayed by pro Putin sentiment being expressed by Trump supporters? Trump set the example and his followers…followed.
Yep, that Trump, he, um, killed Russian mercenaries, drove down oil prices, blocked the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, sold lethal weapons to Ukraine, and pretty much blocked every single attempt by Putin to expand his orbit.
Which is to say, Trump acted diametrically opposite Obama and Biden*.
If you're a complete nutter, you'll claim that Trump was the one who was "soft on Putin".
But you have to be a complete nutter to make that claim
Blogger Greg The Class Traitor said...
Never, ever, ever reward terrorists
Except when Trump rewarded the terrorists Putin with praise and adulation upon the invasion of Ukraine.
You people loved that.
But you're gonna have to be somebody's sock puppet, yes indeed
You're gonna have to be somebody's sock puppet
It may be Putin's or it may be Ukraine's
But you're gonna have to be somebody's sock puppet
Howard said...
Greg The Class Traitor said...
Never, ever, ever reward terrorists
Except when Trump rewarded the terrorists Putin with praise and adulation upon the invasion of Ukraine.
You are such a pathetic moron, Howard.
1: Trump's not President
2: While Trump was President, he kept Russia and Putin down and contained
3: BEFORE the most recent invasion, trump said Putin was acting smart.
Biden, OTOH, drove gas over $100 a barrel by cutting US oil production, and got the US importing 20% of our oil from Russia
One person gives out Kindergarten level "Student of the week" placards
The other gives billion so dollars of funding
To the utter moron Howard, it's the one who gave out "Student of the week" who's the "REAL supporter"
Thank you for the clear reminder of why, even at my worst, I'll never be stupid enough to be part of the Left
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