At Meadhouse this morning, one of us was looking up "revanchism" just as the other was looking up "irredentism." Do you know the difference?
From the Wikipedia article "Irredentism":
Irredentism is a political and popular movement whose members claim (usually on behalf of their nation), and seek to occupy, territory which they consider "lost" (or "unredeemed"), based on history or legend.[1][2] The scope of this definition is occasionally subject to terminological disputes about underlying claims of expansionism, owing to lack of clarity on the historical bounds of putative nations or peoples.
This term also often refers to revanchism but the difference between these two terms is, according to Merriam-Webster, that the word "irredentism" means the reunion of politically or ethnically displaced territory, along with a population having the same national identity. On the other hand, "revanchism" evolved from the French word "revanche" which means revenge. In the political realm, "revanchism" refers to such a theory that intends to seek revenge for a lost territory.
There's this illustration, with the caption, "An 1887 painting depicting schoolchildren in France being taught about the province of Alsace-Lorraine, which was lost in the aftermath of the Franco-Prussian War and which is depicted by black coloring on a map of France":
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The artist is Nicolas Albert Bettannier. Is Rockwellian a word?
Like Mexico wanting Texas back
So, WHEN is America going to reclaim its lost provinces of Upper and Lower Canada?
Those lands have been occupied by the EVIL british and their Horrible queen long enough!
Freedom For CANADA!!!! Reunite North America!!!!!
French Norman Rockwell?
I am Laslo.
The kids in the painting look as if they'll still be eligible to be drafted for the trenches come WW1.
I read somewhere that Stalin set borders inside the USSR explicitly to not correspond to regional ethnic or national boundaries -- this was to limit political opposition and kept all the "republics" inside the union. So, every part of the former USSR/Iron Bloc is now struggling with a bunch of active or latent disputes. Even Finland's historical homeland is part of Russia today.
These disputes could easily last a 100 or 500 years.
I earned a Masters Degree in Slavic Languages. I studied Russian and Polish. I never studied Ukrainian, but I can read it, because Ukrainian is quite similar to Russian, but has a lot of Polish words instead of Russian-like words.
Russian and Ukrainian are East Slavic languages, whereas Polish is a West Slavic language.
Ukrainian has a lot of Polish vocabulary like English has a lot of French vocabulary. Ukraine was under Polish rule for a significant historical period, like England was under French rule. The Ukrainian church broke away from the Russian church, like the British church broke away from the French (Catholic) church.
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Much of Ukraine is so-called Steppe, which we in America call Prairie. Agriculture is troublesome, because rainfall is not reliable. The vegetation that grows well there is grass.
Therefore, the pre-industrial population was largely nomadic. There are few natural borders (mountains, rivers), and so the ethnic populations shifted widely.
This is why Ukrainian history differs from Russian history. Russia is more forested, with natural borders (mountains, rivers). The borders inside Russia were more established.
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After the Russian Revolution, there was a Civil War, which lasted until 1922.
That Civil War was Ukraine's big opportunity to become independent. To do so, Ukraine had to fight effectively against both Russia's Reds and Russia's Whites. What happened, though, was that Ukraine's anarchic element -- literally, the Anarchists -- prevailed. Because of that element's self-defeating actions, the Reds ultimately won Ukraine, and the Whites were defeated completely.
That is how Ukraine joined the Soviet Union. To a large extent, it was Ukraine's own fault. Ukraine's intellectual class was too ineffectual to control the country's anarchic mass. When the opportunity arose for Ukraine to become independent, Ukraine essentially became anarchic and thus lost to the Russian communists.
I don't know where the classroom is supposed to be in France, but look at the other big map.
Tells you a lot about France.
Revanchism was latent in the culture, and mobilized in times of crisis. In 1914 the sentiment was mobilized at the same time as the French army theorists had come up with the doctrine of the offensive, which was a triumph of ideology over evidence and common sense.
In 1914 the French 'Plan 17' for war against the Hun was immediate massed attacks across the French-German borders. The French lost more men that fall than (hedging a bit, it's early for me here) in any other quarter of the war. Not only can Frenchmen be brave, they can be suicidally so.
English speakers like to sneer about the French, but no English-speaking population has ever suffered the kind of demographic disaster that the Great War cost the French, with the possible exception of the Southern Confederates.
In both of the wars that Germany forced on the world in the 20th C, it took millions and millions of dead to defeat them. In WW I most of those millions were French; in a similar but even grimmer fashion, in WW II most of those millions were Russians.
Those who have wide (or even narrow) waters between their countries and aggression should never forget stuff like that.
The Polish language has a lot of Latin words, and therefore many Latin words came into the Ukrainian language.
A Russian who tries to read Ukrainian can get the gist of the text, because the grammar, vocabulary and alphabet are rather similar. However, a Russian will be puzzled by much of the Latin vocabulary. Also, many of the non-Latin Polish words are quite different enough from the corresponding Russian words.
A person who can read both Russian and Polish (such as me), can read Ukrainian rather well, although he does not know how to pronounce Ukrainian spelling correctly.
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Belarussian likewise is largely a mixture of Russian and Polish, but different from Ukrainian.
In general, the Slavic languages blend into each other. The language changes gradually from village to village.
Ukraine is huge.
Ukraine is larger than France.
Ukraine is almost as large as Germany and Italy combined.
Ukraine is about as large as Kansas, Nebraska and South Dakota combined. It's like the heart of the USA's Great Prairie.
I think there's a painting in the Louve which depicts a group of 19th century French soldiers asleep in a field. And the caption is "the dream" which I took as dreaming of revanche and the recapture of Alsace-Lorraine. Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly. Its quite large and quite striking.
I think of Irrendentism in regards to Italy and Trieste. What's funny is the Italians also wanted French Nice and Savoy, which Napoleon III had poached in 1859 or thereabouts. I talked to a Italian waiter in Paris, and he hated the French, and brought up Nice/Savoy. European memories run deep!
So Manifest Destiny is much more like irredentism. It is the natural order of things, perhaps divinely inspired, that we should occupy a certain space and therefore we do. It both explains and justifies. Very tidy.
Don't forget "reification".
Buckley built one of his Blackford Oakes novels around it;
"Stained Glass".
Wow. Cold War memories. Maybe I can petition to rebuild the Blue Cube!
*Grump* Alsace-Lorraine is NOT a province. It’s TWO provinces. And the French didn’t lose all of Lorraine to Germany, though they did lose almost all of Alsace.
And yes, this is nit-picking. But I think accuracy matters here.
Everyone in the Balkans, if you get a few drinks into them, can pull an old map out of the drawer that shows what territory is really ours. When I came into Hungary after being in Transylvania, having stayed mostly in Oradea, Beius, and near Marghita, nearly every Hungarian I mentioned this to reflexively said "That used to be ours," giving the Magyar pronunciation of the place-name. They are still resentful about Trianon a century later. It still infuriates Romanians that the Hungarians claim that basin inside the Carpathians was empty when they arrived a thousand years ago. They insist it was merely transhumance of shepherding that made it look so.
The words may not have been used but the concept of reincorporating the South into the Union after the US Civil War was omnipresent from Sherman's postwar governance of New Orleans to Lee's treatment to those opposed to it like VP Andrew Johnson that I think it is still a thorn in the paw of those who hate to this very day the politics of the former Southern successionist states.
Hmmm.... So where is Alsace-Lorraine now?
a political and popular movement whose members claim (usually on behalf of their nation), and seek to occupy, territory which they consider "lost" (or "unredeemed"), based on history or legend ...
For instance, Aztlán , usually defined as Mexico AND much of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. The goal of creating Aztlán is the dream of another radical organization, the Moviemento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán, the "Chicano Student Movement of Aztlán."
I recently watched several YT lectures on the origins of WWI on its centenary. Contrary to many history books, recovering Alsace-Lorraine was not much of a factor in France going to war--among the leaders or the people. It was important at Versailles, however, when feelings were higher.
One historian said the Kaiser didn't know before hand that attacking France in the event of Russian mobilization was an integral part of German war plans, and the General Staff was unwilling to change them. Wilhelm's farting around in military uniforms was just for show.
TDS is revanchism. He wasn't supposed to win in 2016, and the Revanchists have been trying to "take the kingdom of heaven by force" (as they perceive it) since then.
https://thefederalist.com/2022/02/25/the-west-could-have-prevented-the-russo-ukrainian-war-but-chose-not-to/
Ralph L said...
One historian said the Kaiser didn't know before hand that attacking France in the event of Russian mobilization was an integral part of German war plans, and the General Staff was unwilling to change them.
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I find that VERY hard to believe. None of the histories I’ve read indicate any surprise on his part that Germany’s first act against Russia would be to invade Luxembourg, and then Belgium, all so that France could be attacked.
also needed :- words like alt-irredentism and alt-revanchism to discuss stuff like who lost China etc... === John Bircherenism
I read somewhere that Stalin set borders inside the USSR explicitly to not correspond to regional ethnic or national boundaries
I read that Tito resettled people to different parts of Yugoslavia for similar reasons. That's why there were those troublesome Serbs in Bosnia in the 90s.
Stalin was the original nationalities commissar for the Bolshies under Lenin (you can look it up). The internal subdivisions of the USSR were gerrymandered to insure that ethnic and national minorities existed at every level practicable, by design, from the earliest days.
Divide and conquer.
Stalin was the original nationalities commissar for the Bolshies under Lenin (you can look it up). The internal subdivisions of the USSR were gerrymandered to insure that ethnic and national minorities existed at every level practicable, by design, from the earliest days.
Divide and conquer.
PS. Kaiser Bill knew about the Schlieffen Plan; IIRC his question was about stopping the whole mobilization when some news came that maybe the Russians would back down, and Moltke had to tell him that by then it was too late to stop the process.
Powerful UN speech from Kenyan ambassador against irredentism, noting how African borders were inherited from the arbitrary colonial lines of French, British and Portuguese, but kept in the interest of looking forward in peace, not backwards in nostalgia.
"I read somewhere that Stalin set borders inside the USSR explicitly to not correspond to regional ethnic or national boundaries"
That was in Putin's speech the other day. It was part of his argument that the Russian parts within the Ukraine border should be independent: If Ukraine is "de-communizing," as it claims, then it shouldn't retain the boundaries that the Communists drew, which cut against the traditional ethnic regions.
Of course Chechnya a different story.
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