"... was what our culture (especially advertising) pushed us to aspire to. The cocktails, cars and expensive clothes that prove our superiority. Berger would have been horrified to discover how envy has triumphed, and become, perhaps, the predominant modern social emotion. Twitter, Instagram and Facebook earn our engagement (our clicks and eyeballs) by feeding our envious, self-wounding appetite for others’ achievements.... Nietzsche writes with acute psychological perception about the way the vain, self-promoting man wants 'to give joy to himself at the expense of his fellow men' by aiming at a reputation so high 'that it would have to cause them all pain by arousing their envy.'... Half the moral fury on social media is envy in disguise, something that should give pause to those who desperately seek to be envied. Inspiring envy in others is a potentially self-destructive hobby...."
From "Online moral fury is often just envy in disguise/Inspiring jealousy is considered a great achievement but it also drives others to want to tear us down" by James Marriott (London Times).
Writing this post, I discovered I had a tag called "envy shortcircuiting," but I'd only used it the time I created it, and I'd meant for it to be something I was going to keep track of. In that post, the subject was "poverty appropriation," where people who have a choice chose something associated with poor people. I wrote:
I can see being envious that somebody else had a choice, but if they chose the thing you're stuck with, wouldn't that give you a fresh, positive perspective on how good that thing is? And if it doesn't, aren't you the one who needs a better attitude? Let's try to think of examples other than living in a small house (something some people are compelled to do because they can't afford larger). These are not all exact analogies, but I want to explore the general area that the author of the linked essay (July Westhale) calls "poverty appropriation." I think she's describing something that's a subcategory of what I'm going to call envy shortcircuiting.
I thought up 5 examples of what I wanted to start noticing, then failed to notice. Here are those 5 examples, which, looking back, I see are really needed to understand the concept:
1. X is disabled and cannot walk and sees her neighbor Y choosing to sit at every possible opportunity.
2. X is diabetic and her doctor has forbidden her to eat anything with added sugar. She's having dinner with Y who doesn't order dessert because she just doesn't like sweets.
3. X lives in a sleepy midwestern town. Y — who had several job offers in different places — chose to move to this town.
4. X is a member of a religious group that requires him to wear black clothing. He knows this other guy who has no obligation to wear black but adopted an all-black wardrobe to make shopping and getting dressed in the morning more efficient.
5. X was a poor student in high school and couldn't get into college, so he found a job working in construction. One of his co-workers is Y, a guy he went to high school with who had excellent grades and went to a good college and graduated. X asked Y, "What are you doing working here?" And Y said: "I like to work outdoors. I like to make things."
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Envy is what most of the Trump derangement syndrome was expressing.
Supposedly Laura Bush called W a "Windshield Cowboy" because the closest he ever got to being a cowboy was driving a pickup truck.
Glamour is a tool of hierarchy, by producing mystery.
Interesting examples. I don't think a disabled person is going to envy somebody who sits down a lot, and the diabetic would have to be told "I don't like sweets" in some pointed way by her friend. Otherwise, she'd assume the other person was trying to eat healthy or not taking dessert out of consideration. I'd think that envy would come in if the other person were eating lots of sweets in front of the diabetic and be lessened by the fact that the diabetic's friend might end up with the same condition.
The wearing black example is clever, but hard to grapple with. If you are a nun and Madonna is wearing a nun's outfit, you aren't going to envy her or sympathize with her, and it probably isn't going to make you be grateful that you don't have to make fashion choices. Plus, the usual reaction to someone who is always in black when they don't have to be is that the person is a pretentious pseud looking for attention, not someone who has rationalized their wardrobe.
The other two examples are more significant. Wisdom comes with age. If you're older and you meet somebody who has advantages that you haven't had but ends up in the same place you are, the two of you just might hit it off. For one thing, you come from the same generation. You have an interesting mix of similar and different experiences. If you're younger and at an age when people are more competitive, the advantages that the other person has had will still rankle. The result may not be "envy shortcircuiting" but Schadenfreude, which maybe we could regard as "envy overload."
When you want "more" or "the best" is that because you want others to envy you, or because you are trying to fill some emptiness in yourself or remedy feelings of inadequacy? It's hard to know where to draw the line. Also, it seems like we have become a little less naked in our quest to be glamourous or envied by others. People still want "the best," but they are more guarded and private about it than someone 50 or 30 years ago who had to have the best car or the best stereo and wanted everyone to know it. You can know that you have the best cellphone, but it's not like you've parked a Cadillac or Mercedes in your driveway for all to see. You can still get a Tesla, but you might just try to fill those empty spaces in other, less consumptionist, less material ways.
Victims and grievances. I just read somewhere that you don't want to spend your whole life feeling sorry for yourself.
There are a lot of different things going on here.
In the examples given, it is usually the case that something you do because you have no choice someone else may choose because they actually prefer it (like the construction worker). That could be somewhat cheering because it suggests that what you have may not be so bad. There were a lot of Flintstones episodes that made this point, e.g., the rich folks would find that bowling was a lot of fun. But the rub is that they had a choice and you don't. Maybe you don't like construction.
Half the moral fury on social media is envy in disguise...
Envy disguised as "equity"?
Sowing division is one way the elite can can keep the masses below them down.
Crab mentality is a metaphor for the behaviour of crabs which when caught and kept in a bucket would not allow any of the other crabs to escape. When any tried to escape, the rest pulled it down (shared joy in misery).
X is in contruction and wears out the knees of his blue jeans, occasionally spilling paint on them. Y, a softwre developer, sits in an air conditioned building. They tell X how they bought their $180 designer jeans with torn knees and faux paint splotches. Y explains that their jeans suggest alliance with their many non-binary and bipoc friends at the arugula stand off the capitol square farmers market. The jeans are a clever take on toxic masculinity. X's fist lands somewhere near Y's left nostril. "Sorry", says X. "Glamor envy."
From the article: "Half the moral fury on social media is envy in disguise..."
Most of the fury is unallocated hate, aimed at dissenters. FIFY.
Grrr autocorrect. "unalloyed."
I noted this phenomenon on Tuesdays post concerning wimpy men.
I related how the wife's hair dresser envied my wife for being "rich", because we decided she would not have job, but raise the kids. We were not rich. No long vacations, had only one vehicle, and no toys, like boats, snow mobiles, motorcycles etc. All the things the hair dresser had, but envied us.
Envy is a European perspective; note that Berger was an Englishman who lived in France.
Traditionally, the common people there were tied to their social class and couldn't hope to become one of the beautiful people. In the US, where it's easier to reinvent oneself, I think it's much more likely for glamour to be an object of aspiration, not envy. Not "I wish I could be like her" but rather "how can I be like her?"
I don't think I've ever known anyone who was interested in glamour or being glamorous.
The old Russian fable about two poor peasants, Ivan and Boris. The only difference between them was that Boris had a goat and Ivan didn't. One day, Ivan came upon a strange-looking lamp and, when he rubbed it, a genie appeared. She told him that she could grant him just one wish, but it could be anything in the world.
Ivan said, "I want Boris' goat to die."
Nietzsche writes with acute psychological perception about the way the vain, self-promoting man wants 'to give joy to himself at the expense of his fellow men' by aiming at a reputation so high 'that it would have to cause them all pain by arousing their envy.'
Note that Nietzsche is not talking about wealth ("cars and expensive clothes"), but about reputation (presumably moral reputation). Nietzsche spends a lot of time arguing that morality is hypocritical because it is actually driven by base motives and power dynamics. Here, Nietzsche is arguing that the "vain, self-promoting man" desires a lofty moral reputation for the base purpose of making people envy him.
Nietzsche is talking about what we call virtue signalling today, so Nietzsche's criticism is more on point than the author realizes when it comes to social media today.
"Not "I wish I could be like her" but rather "how can I be like her?"
And thus were born a million magazines.
How do I know I’m envious?
Is there a test?
Does playing lottery count against me?
Wait, I was told glamour ended in the good old days of the 1950's when America was great and people dressed up to fly commercial. We live in the era of anti glamour typified by dirty hippies, scary punks, depressing grunge and thuggish rap.
In any event, envy is a deadly sin. Along with pride gluttony lust anger and sloth.
Envy is a cultural pillar of Marxism. It’s why Marxists want everyone’s standard of living brought down to an equally low level. Can’t have a gap between richer and poorer even if the poorer have a much improved standard of living.
Sick people.
Strange that you see the seven deadly sins and the 10 commandments relevant in lots of conversations.
Envy is one of the Seven deadly sins.
Ten Commandments
X. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors house...wife...maid servant... man servant...etc
"I don't think I've ever known anyone who was interested in glamour or being glamorous."
When I was a young woman, the magazine Glamour was huge.
" Y, "What are you doing working here?" And Y said:..."
That's the end of 'Office Space'. But the real answer is "I got a liberal arts degree". Or that latter is what then answer my brother, his best friend and several other friends of his who graduated in the mid-70s gave. My brother did after being a master carpenter, move into land conservation. But he had good writing skills from his BA which helped but are no long assured from time in college.
Envy might be a name for something we needed and now it’s like a pancreas. We’re not sure what is for.
And what if envious is used by the elite to keep the deplorables in their place?
Here's what i don't like. I don't like it when successful or Rich or powerfull people start yapping about "Envy". That's a defense mechanism to protect their position against criticism. Oh you don't think Zuckerprick should have $50 zillion dollars or have the power to censer people? well, you're just full of "Envy".
That's just BS.
On a personal level envy might have its good side in motivating you to emulate a successful person and improve your life. I suppose.
Caddyshack had a great little scene which lampooned Envy Shortcircuiting in a way: The Italian-American kid was BSing.
Czervik: You guys are brothers?
Tony: Yeah.
Czervik: Is this a family business, or what? They say for Italians this is skilled labor, you know that?
Tony: No, actually, I'm a rich millionaire. My doctor told me to get out and carry golf bags a couple of times a week.
Czervik: You're a funny kid. What time are you due back in Boys Town?
"Envy is what most of the Trump derangement syndrome was expressing."
Boy, are you wrong!
I'm familiar with a slightly different version from Bob Boyd's.
Ivan prays every day, "My neighbor Boris has a cow. He gets milk, cheese, yogurt. I have nothing but borsht. Woe is me!' One day, the Archangel Michael appears to him, "God has heard your lamentations. He will grant you a cow." "That isn't necessary," says Ivan, "I'M NOT SELFISH. Just kill his cow."
"I related how the wife's hair dresser envied my wife for being 'rich,' because we decided she would not have job, but raise the kids. We were not rich. No long vacations, had only one vehicle, and no toys, like boats, snow mobiles, motorcycles etc. All the things the hair dresser had, but envied us."
"Rich" is relative. If the hairdresser was married and she had has much (but no more) as you, her comparable life required two incomes. You are still relatively "richer" than she, as you and your wife are able to live your similar life with one income.
I guess the reverse of envy (contentedness) explains the shows where they puncture giant pimples and film the grotesquely overweight.
The only things driving social media are envy and pride.
The best think in life is to be rich and anonymous imho.
About once a week I see a man at the grocery store doing his own shopping. He drives a Camry hybrid.
I only know his face because he used to work with a friend of mine decades ago.
He is worth about $12B.
He's a nice guy and always stops to chat.
He's doing it right.
I found my lost comment. Let’s see if it’s at least relevant:
Another 1st world problem? We’re very fortunate people.
Is it worse when others come in from outside the area- drive around in posh, spotless vehicles and laugh at another’s way of life? I prefer they appropriate. The hippies certainly tried it- w/their own twist on things and quite a few stayed in the area and add to the flavor of culture up here.
I remember Tommy Tunes- I swear it was him- did an interview and said he had 20/20 vision, but wears glasses that diminish and blur his eyesight. I’m still astonished.
The Amish built our post and beam sugarhouse. It’s lovely. 24x24. It’s got space, height, natural exposed beams- I could live in it.
MockT- I’ve missed your winks
It seems I melded the two topics of your “envy short-circuiting” 1st post to now! What do I win?? Lol
"I don't think I've ever known anyone who was interested in glamour or being glamorous."
“When I was a young woman, the magazine Glamour was huge.”
I never understood this. It seemed to me to be more of a girl thing. And, yes, it seems to still go on at times. In some of the cubs in Scottsdale, at night, you can still find a lot of women there trying to look glamorous in order to snag a rich husband. They should have kept their old one, because they are now competing with women a couple decades younger. The guys they are after, in turn, tend to underdress a bit, can see the desperately glamorous women across the room, and for many of these guys, sex is Like shooting fish in a barrel.
I'm confused here. Perhaps it's low blood sugar.
As a diabetic, I have had meals with diverse folks and this issue comes up. Some folks, who know I'm diabetic, order sugar intensive foods, or SERVE me sugary deserts; "Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you don't eat sugar." (Bullshit)
Others refrain from such "treats" knowing full well I cannot share. They COULD have the sweet creme tart; but, they do not.
I am not envious of either group: I appreciate the gesture from the second group. I stopped taking meals or accepting dinner invitations from the former.
I have other concerns that cause me angst; none include the five listed above.
I'm confused here. Perhaps it's low blood sugar.
As a diabetic, I have had meals with diverse folks and this issue comes up. Some folks, who know I'm diabetic, order sugar intensive foods, or SERVE me sugary deserts; "Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot you don't eat sugar." (Bullshit)
Others refrain from such "treats" knowing full well I cannot share. They COULD have the sweet creme tart; but, they do not.
I am not envious of either group: I appreciate the gesture from the second group. I stopped taking meals or accepting dinner invitations from the former.
I have other concerns that cause me angst; none include the five listed above.
My brother in law is a pretty good example of this "Envy Shortcircuiting" thing.
He spent the bulk of his career in electronic component sales and my sister worked as an RN--part time once they started having children. Based on their lifestyle, they were very comfortable.
Eventually, that business came to an end--I don't know if it was bought-out, or what. The upshot, is that he's too young for medicare but doesn't really need much income. Guess what he's doing? He drives a school bus for the local public school district. He loves it! He is very social and loves kids and as a public worker, the health insurance is gold-plated.
In a few years, maybe I'll do the same thing. Well, not exactly the same--I love my kids, but am kind of indifferent to other people's. Driving a UPS delivery truck or becoming a mailman, seems like a lot of fun, but with kids still in college, I need to stay where I'm at.
I concur with the two Russian jokes. I have a neighbor from Russia who has never worried about incurring neighbors' envy, especially when she dresses up with all her gold jewelry or she invites you to show off her china and leather furniture, etc. And she definitely hates if anyone else seems to have more than her and lets you know it in a passive aggressive manner. Mostly, fake friendliness. It's hard for me to imagine her indulging in envy short circuiting or similar virtue signalling. She's very amusing.
I grew up in a hierarchical family and there was an expectation that the older child should always get everything first so if a younger child (namely me as the youngest) got something the older one had not there was hell to pay resulting in fifty year old resentments. The envy and resentment was very damaging for all concerned.
There is a real reason why the 10 Commandments doesn't forbid having more than others, because it's the coveting that causes problems.
I agree with what Robert Cook said about the single income family being richer -- the value of the woman having the freedom to stay home and take care of the household is immeasurable. Also I agree with Joe Smith -- that living below your means and not trying to show you are better than everyone else gives you immense freedom which is immeasurable. But that has nothing to do with worrying about other people's envy imo, it's about your own state of mind.
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