Althouse: Let's listen in as Spotify renegotiates its contract with Joe Rogan...

February 6, 2022

Let's listen in as Spotify renegotiates its contract with Joe Rogan...

45 comments:

Wince said...: As I've been advocating for some time, content contracts with large "publishers" should be written in the form of a right of first refusal.

That is, if the publisher passes on or cancels content, there should be a reversion of rights to the creator (or the public domain), and the creator should be able to publish elsewhere without penalty or retaliation.

[Bumped over]; 2/6/22, 9:21 AM
Andrew said...: I am waiting, waiting, waiting, for just one person with Joe Rogan's clout and status to say "go F yourselves" to people demanding he apologize.

Here's one thing he could do: Read every rap and hip hop song (or pseudo-song) that has the n-word. Read them out loud on his pidcast, and demand each time that the singer and songwriter publicly repent and apologize. He should name the publishing companies, marketing companies, and all other organizations involved in these songs, and ask everyone to boycott them. Do the same with movie scenes. Fight fire with fire. Stop playing their games, by their rules.

I reject this b.s. idea that only black people can use this word, and everyone else has to hang their heads down in shame if they even repeat rap lyrics. Rogan should adopt a new motto: "If they can say, I can say it too." Put it on T-shirts, alongside rap quotes. Tell them to F off, and see what happens.

Maybe he'd go down in flames. Better to do that than this groveling act.; 2/6/22, 9:21 AM
Temujin said...: Can't wait until they get to the sanity clause.

The party of the first part...; 2/6/22, 9:31 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Here's one thing he could do: Read every rap and hip hop song (or pseudo-song) that has the n-word."

Search for the n-word on Spotify and see all that comes up.

By the way, you can still hear John Lennon's "Woman Is the N-word of the World" and Patti Smith's "Rock n Roll N-word."

And I see 14 Richard Pryor tracks with the n-word in the title and 2 Richard Pryor albums with the n-word in the title.; 2/6/22, 9:35 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I recommend not using the word at all, but people should remember that it was until quite recently considered appropriate to "mention" the word but not to "use" it — the "use/mention distinction."

As for black people using the word, just skip what you don't want to hear.; 2/6/22, 9:38 AM
Mattman26 said...: Needed that. (The clip.) thank you.; 2/6/22, 9:38 AM
Floris said...: > I am waiting, waiting, waiting, for just one person with Joe Rogan's clout and status to say "go F yourselves" to people demanding he apologize.

Adam Carolla is pretty big, and he has repeatedly done just that. The result: they now leave him alone.; 2/6/22, 9:43 AM
Mark said...: "Here's one thing he could do: Read every rap and hip hop song (or pseudo-song) that has the n-word."

Sounds entertaining .... not.; 2/6/22, 9:44 AM
mezzrow said...: Thats-a my agent.; 2/6/22, 9:57 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: What Andrew said. Perhaps Mark could crash at Georgetown's Crying Room for the duration.; 2/6/22, 10:07 AM
BUMBLE BEE said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/6/22, 10:07 AM
Andrew said...: "Search for the n-word on Spotify and see all that comes up."

Exactly. This is a contrived media hit on Rogan.

"I recommend not using the word at all, but people should remember that it was until quite recently considered appropriate to "mention" the word but not to "use" it — the "use/mention distinction."

I agree, it shouldn't be used. But what changed about use/mention? Who decided that? Was it a committee?

"Adam Carolla is pretty big, and he has repeatedly done just that. The result: they now leave him alone."

Yes. Great example. That should become the default. Apologies don't work. Just stand your ground, and maintain your dignity. Let them know you are not intimidated by the online mob. We need more of that.

"Sounds entertaining .... not."

It's not about entertainment. It's about exposing hypocrisy. It's like Jesus saying to the Pharisees, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." But I find giving bullies a taste of their own medicine to be very entertaining.; 2/6/22, 10:18 AM
Nancy said...: Ann wrote:

I recommend not using the word at all, but people should remember that it was until quite recently considered appropriate to "mention" the word but not to "use" it.

But Ann! You just *mentioned* not using it! That's a stoning offense!

https://youtu.be/Cnn2aGVcCEc; 2/6/22, 10:25 AM
gilbar said...: People all the time are complaining about Marxism, but i think they're pretty hilarious
(especially Zeppo; he cracks me up!!); 2/6/22, 10:28 AM
gspencer said...: Sold! I'd elect Margaret Dumont as our president eight days a week.; 2/6/22, 10:36 AM
Aggie said...: I watched the first few seconds of the offending compilation (essentially just bracketing Rogan's uttering of the word with no surrounding context, just "N..,N..,N...", one after the other. I think it may have been the 'Young Turks' that put it together (themselves frequent offenders). Then I viewed Rogan's second abasement video, on the subject of the compilation. I think he could have commented on his mistake and also brought in the odious elephant in the room, Cancel Culture, but he chose not to. I also think that's a tactical mistake on his part. Rogan is a good persuader and with his laid-back style he could easily lay out a convincing case to show the unfairness of the tactic. There are a lot of people that will view these two videos, out of curiosity, to see what all this 'Rogan' stuff is all about.

So far 117 of his episodes have been removed:

https://jremissing.com/#link=%7B%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://jremissing.com/%22,%22target%22:%22_blank%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22JREMissing%22%7D

He did a fresh podcast yesterday, so for now I guess it's all still a go. But Spotify has a real problem they are going to have to tangle with, sooner or later - their faction of 'woke' employees, who are really no better than spies in their enemy's camp. The company that handles it best will be the company that gives them one chance to recognize & acknowledge their position in the hierarchy, followed on the next infraction by a pink slip.; 2/6/22, 10:48 AM
Ceciliahere said...: I’m very offended at the Zeppo character’s insulting portrayal of an Italian man. As an Italian-American woman, my question is…who do I sue?; 2/6/22, 10:58 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "I’m very offended at the Zeppo character’s insulting portrayal of an Italian man."

Chico.

But Joe Rogan IS Italian.; 2/6/22, 11:12 AM
effinayright said...: In the spirit of the Marx bros clip, I will charge $100 every time I DON'T use the n-word.; 2/6/22, 11:18 AM
Ceciliahere said...: What does Joe Rogan being Italian have to do with Marx Bros’ Chico (Zeppo) character?

Oh an by the way, I didn’t know that Joe is Italian but now I like his fuck you attitude even more.; 2/6/22, 11:26 AM
MalaiseLongue said...: Interviewer: What are your rhetorical and discursive strategies for dealing with the “elect,” your term for social-justice activists?

John McWhorter: There’s a certain kind of person who thinks that battling power differentials is supposed to be central to everything we do. The idea is that those power differentials exist, and until they don’t, everything else is fiddling while Rome burns. That kind of person, if you disagree with them, calls you a white supremacist.

There are two things that we have to do: One is we have to get used to being called that name and walking on, instead of thinking that [being] called a racist on social media stains us like Hester Prynne. And two, that kind of person needs to be told, “No.”

I think a lot of us, especially since June 2020 and [the killing of] George Floyd, have thought, when that person comes along talking about social justice and hegemony and intersectionality, and tells you that we’re going to change all of our procedures, and if you disagree, we’re going to call you names on social media or get you fired, that our job is to say yes.

The people calling for that need to be told no. They don’t need to be abused, but just: “No. We don’t agree with you that battling power differentials should be the center of our endeavor here. It will be one of about a dozen things that we do. It will not be the center. And if you don’t like it, you have to leave. And I don’t care what you call me.”

https://reason.com/2022/02/01/how-to-talk-about-racism/; 2/6/22, 11:38 AM
Josephbleau said...: “ I recommend not using the word at all, but people should remember that it was until quite recently considered appropriate to "mention" the word but not to "use" it — the "use/mention distinction."

There was a law professor in Chicago that made a hypothetical test question using a redacted N and B word with just the first letter, and was severely punished and had to go for a psych exam. He was just trying to illustrate the principles of law I assume. So never redact the n or b word. It is big joss, much taboo.; 2/6/22, 11:44 AM
Michael K said...: Once Rogan apologized, he was pretty much done. This was a manufactured hit. Probably has Obama's fingerprints somewhere. He is the expert on race usefulness in politics.; 2/6/22, 11:44 AM
Josephbleau said...: I guess Neil Young can count coup. He took a partial scalp.; 2/6/22, 11:47 AM
who-knew said...: reminded me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6siyrC6Q-c8; 2/6/22, 12:06 PM
rcocean said...: Great writing. Great Groucho. Great Margaret Dumount.; 2/6/22, 12:07 PM
rcocean said...: Chico is OK in his bits with Groucho. Otherwise, he's hard to take. Same with Harpo.

Rogan got $100 million. Does he really care if Spotify fires him? he can go anywhere and take his audience and his $$ with him.; 2/6/22, 12:09 PM
doctrev said...: Aggie said...
The company that handles it best will be the company that gives them one chance to recognize & acknowledge their position in the hierarchy, followed on the next infraction by a pink slip.

2/6/22, 10:48 AM

Quite reasonable, and that's the problem. Giving SJWs a warning, especially if you're ordering them to undergo a complete personality transplant, is practically telling them to sabotage your company. They are literal corporate cancer, and corporations with basic functionality would terminate them on the spot.

Luckily, we are in the terminal stage of corporate convergence, and the destruction of certain multinationals along with the governments they sponsor is well within sight.; 2/6/22, 1:21 PM
Lucien said...: Is the original contract between Rogan and Spotify in the public domain? What about any later modifications? Choice of law, choice of forum, or arbitration provisions?; 2/6/22, 2:10 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: Ann Althouse said...
As for black people using the word, just skip what you don't want to hear.

Sorry, but that is racist.

If saying the word is wrong, then it's wrong regardless of your skin color. To say otherwise is to claim "black privilege"; 2/6/22, 4:06 PM
John henry said...: Wince,

I think what you are advocating is already standard with book publishing. I published a book with Productivity Press in 2011 Achieving Lean Changeover: Putting SMED to Work. My contract says that if they allow the book to go "out of print", all publishing rights revert to me.

I am working with an Australian to republish a set of 4 books on Quality. He is in the same situation. The publisher let the books go out of print and all US and Australian (and others) rights have reverted to him so he can do what he wants with them. Including republishing them through Amazon's KDP publish on demand service. As we intend.

I have published several books through Amazon KDP and I hold ALL rights to the books. Amazon acts solely as a printer and marketer.

Unless I write a book "for hire", I continue to own the copyright regardless of publishing deal. Certain exceptions apply.

I have published a couple hundred articles over the past 20 years, mostly in US publications but internationally a few times as well. These are considered "works for hire" and the publication owns all rights, including copyright. Again, some exceptions.

I wrote a series of 60 or so KC Boxbottom columns for Packaging Digest. I negotiated a special deal for them. I continue to own the character (KC Boxbottom, Packaging Detective), the concept and all the columns, though not some of the art that they provided when they published. PD has the non-exclusive right to publish them in print and on the web wherever but cannot sell them.

So I am not clear on what you want. If I sell something, it now belongs to the entity I sold it to. I have no ownership interest in it anymore.

I do feel strongly that copyright should need to be maintained. Grant it as now for 20 years or so. Then, if I want to continue using it, allow unlimited renewals but make me file for renewal with contact info and so on. Perhaps a $20 fee. This would let me keep a copyright as long as I want provided I am using it. It would prevent orphan works that can't be republished because nobody knows who owns the copyright. You can't assume nobody does and publish because of the risk that someone will pop up and sue you.

I brought Henry Ford's 1923 My Life and Work back into print because it was out of copyright. I would love to do the same thing with his 1931 "Moving Forward" but can't because ownership is unknown unless I pay a fair amount of money to track it down.

John LGBTQBNY Henry; 2/6/22, 5:18 PM
gilbar said...: i HOPE people don't think that gilbar thought that Zeppo was in that sketch!
gilbar knows his Marxism!!; 2/6/22, 5:21 PM
M Jordan said...: I suppose this was funny once upon a time.; 2/6/22, 5:26 PM
John henry said...: Adam Curry probably knows more about the business of podcasting than anyone. He also knows Joe Rogan and helped him design his new studio when Rogan moved to Texas. He's also been on the Rogan podcast a couple times.

Last year or the year before when Rogan had signed with Spotify a bunch of Spotify employees threatened to quit over Rogan. At that time, Adam, and John Dvorak, discussed Rogan's deal in some depth on their No Agenda Podcast www.noagendashow.com

Adam does not claim to have seen the contract but his understanding is the following:

Joe Rogan owns "The Joe Rogan Experience" podcast lock stock and barrel. He built the studio, pays the employees and assumes all costs, he owns all the intellectual property. Probably exceptions for things like bumper music, jingles and such which he licenses. The point is that Spotify only purchased the right to distribute the shows.

The $100 million is pretty much non-refundable, non-cancellable and payable to Rogan more or less no matter what

Spotify has no input into Rogan guests, content or anything else.

Spotify does have the right not to carry a specific episode if they wish. Under the contract I guess they could decline to publish all shows if they wished.

If Spotify declines to carry an episode for whatever reason, Rogan has the right to publish it anywhere else that he pleases.

Assuming that this understand is more or less correct, why on God's green earth would Rogan want to negotiate? Unless it is to say something like Give me my $100mm now and I will go back to what I was doing before. Or, give me $200mm and I will stop podcasting for 3 years.

Rogan does not need Spotify. Spotify needs him.

John LGBTQBNY Henry; 2/6/22, 5:32 PM
John henry said...: In addition to the music, Ann, you can also buy Dick Gregory's book "N-word" Actual title bowdlerized. Or (white) Jerry Farber's book on how students in general, are mis treated by the American School system "The student as n-word"

Both are available via the Althouse portal. If I buy those books, you will receive a few pennies from Amazon. Will you refuse to accept them? Rhetorical question, there is not really any way you can refuse them. They will just show up automatically in your checking account mixed in with the other thousand$ (tens of thousand$?) that you get each month via portal sales.

So you, personally, may be making money off the use of the n-word. Are you OK with that?

BTW, the essay "The Student as N-word" from whcih the book derives is available online but I can't post the link without causing you Googly problems. But you can search for it if you spell the word.

John LGBTQBNY Henry; 2/6/22, 5:42 PM
John henry said...: Blogger Temujin said...

Can't wait until they get to the sanity clause.

You beat me too it. Everyone knows theres no Sanity Claus

Chico has always been my favorite Marx Brother. I like Groucho in small doses, Gummo and Zeppo are interesting straight me and Harpo creeps me out so bad that I literally cannot watch him.

John LGBTQBNY Henry; 2/6/22, 5:45 PM
John henry said...: JREmissing.com lists all 117 deleted episodes.

If you just list them in order, the most recent episode to be deleted is #1458. The next most recent is 1255. Then they go back somewhat randomly to #4.

The most recent podcast, from Feb 5, is 1772

Does anyone know what the first episode to air on Spotify was? The list doesn't give dates but based on the number of podcasts he does most, if not all of these episodes are from before he was on Spotify.

John LGBTQBNY Henry; 2/6/22, 5:55 PM
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...: Grouch Marx; agent of Chaos!; 2/6/22, 6:21 PM
cathy said...: Posobiec on twitter identifies the campaign against Rogan as a superpac meidastouch. Three brothers whose father is a Hollywood lawyer for Lady Gaga and Ellen. So it isn't really youngsters. It is the power elite.; 2/7/22, 12:45 AM
cathy said...: Posobiec on twitter identifies the campaign as coming from a superpac, meidastouch, three brothers whose father is a Hollywood lawyer for Lady Gaga and Ellen. So it isn't youngsters. It is the power elite.; 2/7/22, 12:49 AM
tim in vermont said...: They may not be able to shut up Joe Rogan, but they can deny him A-List guests.; 2/7/22, 5:30 AM
Dave said...: Rumble has offered him 100 times the going rate to leave. I will volunteer to be his partner.; 2/7/22, 12:52 PM
Greg The Class Traitor said...: tim in vermont said...
They may not be able to shut up Joe Rogan, but they can deny him A-List guests.

Which "A-Listers" can "they" deny him who would be worth listening to?; 2/7/22, 1:24 PM
Daniel THomas said...: Why a duck?; 2/7/22, 4:51 PM
John Althouse Cohen said...: That video is from Animal Crackers, my favorite movie of 1930.; 2/7/22, 11:55 PM