From "The Big Lie and the Elastic Truth: How to Invent a Coup" by Frank Miele (Real Clear Politics).
ADDED: By "to work to prevent the installation," I believe he means to argue for and pursue legal processes, not to physically obstruct others who are ostensibly pursuing their legal role. If he means more than that, I disagree. As for the idea of keeping going "as long as doubts persisted," there will always be some doubt, as there has been in many past elections. At some point, you need to stand down and allow the new administration to go forward. But, obviously, you can continue to believe that the person installed in power did not really win. You have freedom of thought and freedom of speech. I certainly remember many Democrats believing that George W. Bush did not really win in 2000. And did JFK really win in 1960? We're skeptical! But it's not treason!
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101 comments:
His only crime is that he won’t shut up about the election being stolen.
as If THAT'S not enough! Our living Constitution clearly states:
Everyone, must ALWAYS accept the dictates of our Deep State
This Must be done, Blindly and Mindlessly.
Our Deep State is Our GOD. All Worship Our Deep State. Do so or DIE!
There are many people in those videos who should probably go to jail, but why so many people are rotting in jail without trial would seem a real mystery had one any faith in our legal system.
His only crime is that he won’t shut up about the election being stolen.
See also: Clinton, Hillary; Mueller, Robert; Collusion, Russian; Media, US.
Who Is Ray Epps?
Our election system lacks a clear audit mechanism and a speedy path to rule on objections.
Having said that, if the three branches of government actually did their jobs it would matter much less who lived in the White House.
.
Is it not clear to all by now that the battle for America is not between Republicans and Democrats but between the moneyed elite and the rest of us?
Look clearly. AOC and the Squad make mouth noises but meekly submit to Pelosi. Across the aisle, those nasty right-wingers in Congress sign off on every move to shift jobs out of the USA and money to Wall Street.
Liz Cheney is a blood-soaked neoconservative. Pelosi a thieving neoliberal. But at their core those two are soulmates.
Let's see. Kennedy = Viet Nam. Biden/Harris = USA circling the drain. Gee, what happened to that "abundance of caution" so fiercely flogged by our "elites"? Biden/Harris was a "judgement call" by some voters after all.
I think the plan by Steve Bannon and Con Law professor John Eastland was for Pence to remand the EC votes back to certain states like PA, WI, GA etc. That was legal and reasonable.
But the Dems took the position that once they stole the election it would remain stolen. Recall how corporations intimidated Big Law into not representing Trump in the election cases.
Thank you for bringing that article to our attention. It is a worthy read. It really is a travesty that our country has such a biased unobjective news media and is so manipulative of language and ideas.
Truth(tm) is coming and proggiefascists are going to drown us in their tears.
Everybody get life preservers. It's gonna be fun!
Is this what our president emeritus is planning to talk about Thursday?
John LGBTQBNY Henry
T-mobile is now censoring text messages containing links to The Gateway Pundit blog.
It's nationwide apparently. I can confirm that I can't send any link containing Gatewaypundit.com between my wife's and my phones.
No problem sending texts with non GP links.
Story here https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/01/just-like-soviet-russia-t-mobile-erasing-links-gateway-pundit-articles-send-text-message/
John LGBTQBNY Henry
I’m old enough to remember “selected not elected”. It didn’t end Jan 6, 2001 and continued well past Jan. 21, 2001. It sort of ended after Sept. 11, 2001, but it mostly morphed into claiming the attacks on the United States were actually carried out on the Presidents order. One of the most vocal on this argument got a gig as a host on The View.
I have a problem with “installed” but, otherwise, he’s clearly right. We have a system to challenge results. So long as people operate within that system, no matter how aggressive or unreasonable they may seem (or be), they are fine. They are complying with the rules of our democracy.
The problem is that "standing down" includes, to 90+% of the left, any changes that make a repeat less likely to occur.
What Trump established is that there's no place to contest an election fraud in the US system. Courts won't take it and nothing procedural will either.
I’m with Mollie Hemingway on the rigged election and not persuaded by these nibble around the edges/good enough think pieces.
…and until every state’s election process has been fumigated and disinfected with rules and laws like Florida both sides will have plenty of room for claims.
Under the Constitution of this republic, the Electoral College elects Presidents. The number of votes is known precisely. Biden won in 2020, just as Trump won in 2016.
Yes.
I don't see any discussion about the process, constitutional process, of the Vice President formally certifying the Electoral votes from each State.
If that is power of the Vice President, logic tells me he has the exact same power to refuse that certification.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I am not talking about if he should have. If the VP has to power to certify, refusing to certify has to come from the same place.
Thus citizens petitioning the VP to do his job is not a constitutional crisis
"Under the Constitution of this republic, the Electoral College elects Presidents."
And the legislatures decide how the Electoral College vote is determined and have oversight responsibility for that process.
“Millions of us independently reached the same conclusion.”
Independently? I do not think that word means what you think it means.
I stand corrected. This morning a few left oriented propaganda sites are reporting the two Joes are talking again about reviving the spending bill and, more importantly, making the voter law HR1 thing happen.
Democrats never accepted that Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton in the 2016 election. Hence we had the actual coup attempt in which our national security apparatus (FBI, CIA, DoJ) working with a wannabee Presidential campaign (Hillary Clinton), and the existing administration (Obama), created out of thin air a Russia Collusion story with the intent on removing a duly elected President. That is what a coup looks like.
That is what "working to prevent the installation" or the activity of a new President looks like.
The "cabal" described in Molly Ball's article about the "fortified" election had a group called "Protect the Results" ready to protest election eve:
"More than 150 liberal groups, from the Women’s March to the Sierra Club to Color of Change, from Democrats.com to the Democratic Socialists of America, joined the “Protect the Results” coalition. The group’s now defunct website had a map listing 400 planned postelection demonstrations, to be activated via text message as soon as Nov. 4. To stop the coup they feared, the left was ready to flood the streets."
The Left would not have accepted Trump's victory either; their actions would have been a lot more coordinated and much earlier than anything we saw January 6th.
The left is overplaying their hand begging the Republicans to steal their milk money.
"there's no place to contest an election fraud in the US system. Courts won't take it and nothing procedural will either."
BS. Plenty of courts weighed in and even offered to hear evidence they didn't have to hear, but Team Trump folded like a house of cards.
It was bad enough Bush v Gore dragged out through Dec 2000 but you can't keep the election open past inauguration day.
There are 3000+ counties - were their elections all fraudulent? How do you "audit" results except by human hand recounts? We can do these now when results are close. Why recount when they're not?
We actually have some nuts here in Missoula doing that, recounting legislative races where they won. Are they going to cast into doubt all the bills they passed this year?
This brouhaha is nutty and noxious.
"At some point, you need to stand down"
If you're not on the left.
"I certainly remember many Democrats believing that George W. Bush did not really win in 2000."
Reflected in elaborate investigations after the fact and denigrations of the Supreme Court.
"And did JFK really win in 1960? We're skeptical! But it's not treason!"
Actually, in retrospect, it kind of is. But Nixon was a good meek Republican and the Kennedys were not progs aiming to scorch the earth.
Howard at 7:52.
Another great insight, wittily expressed. I am starting to think of you as a National Treasure, Howard. Keep up the good work.
Re: Kennedy in 1960.
Back when Illinois could go either way, the Cook County Democrats and the DuPage County Republicans put a lot of energy into "securing" elections. Now that the suburbs have gone Democrat, no one cares. Illinois has honest elections, finally. Ghost voters? Who needs 'em? The game now is to "secure" electoral districts through gerrymandering so that the GOP will never win anything again.
Look at the repulsive people holding elective office in Illinois: Pritzker, Foxx, Lightfoot, Durbin, Preckwinkle, Duckworth, AG Kwame Raoul, etc. Look at the new congressional map.
Sheesh.
Howard said...
The left is overplaying their hand begging the Republicans to steal their milk money.
They are just doing exactly what illegitimate regimes have always done.
Any kind of real audit or investigation into the 2020 presidential election will show millions of fake votes.
They have to block all investigations and all inquiry. They can't allow even a perfunctory look at the election. They can't even allow people to talk about it.
The left isn't overplaying their hand.
They are playing their only hand.
"I certainly remember many Democrats believing that George W. Bush did not really win in 2000. And did JFK really win in 1960? We're skeptical!"
One of the advantages of the Electoral College is that we can be certain that they did in fact win a majority of electors. As did Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020. Still not sure about Hayes over Tilden in 1876 though.
The plan to have Pence remand EC votes back to the states was not legitimate. Those votes had already been certified.
Trump took the idiotic shenanigans that the Democrats tried to pull in 2000, 2004, and 2016 and put them on steroids. A result is that he left the Republic in worse shape than when he started.
If he hadn’t whined about Georgia during the wind up,to the Georgia Run-off we would not have lost two Senate seats and a lot of the incompetence of the last year would have been prevented.
A Fulton County grand jury is looking into whether his antics rise to the level of a crime. I hope their work results in his fat loser ass being thrown into jail so we can end this psychodrama surrounding his wounded ego and get on with it. The surest path to Democrat victory in 202w and beyond is for the Republicans to focus on re-litigating 2020 when they should be focused on Democrats.
If he did love this country he would do the right thing and just fade away.
Was Gore in 2000 committing Treason? Why are we even be argueing this? But this sort of nonsense is effective, since instead of talking about the stolen Election and the REFUSAL of the MSM and Establishment (both R and D) to audit the votes, we're talking about a few people barging into the Captial Building and Trump committing "Treason".
Again, why is the DoJ hiding thousands of feet of survaillence footage? WHy was the Cop let go without any punishment for killing Ashli Babbitt? Why did another Protester die after being atacked by the Police? why are people who committed no violent crimes, still in Jail, or even worse still awaiting trial? Why was Antifa allowed to attack the White House and the Federal Buildings in Portland without any punishment, while Jan 6th people who did nothing more than tresspass get years in jail?
How many of those who led the Capital hill riot were FBI assets? WHy has Pelosi not been held to account for refusing National Guard Troops by the DoD?
The issue of course is not whether Trump had the right to argue in good faith that some of the election results were fraudulent. The issues are whether there was any substantial basis for those claims or whether he was just flat-out lying. Those are the issues that should be discussed. Let’s start with the claim that vote totals were fraudulently altered on Dominion voting machines. We can finish with Trump’s request to the Georgia Secretary of State to “find” another 10,000 Trump votes.
Note, I am not arguing that Trump’s campaign of lies, for the purpose of providing cover for GOP congressmen to vote to reject Biden electors and throw the election into the House of Representatives, was a crime. I don’t believe political lies ought to be criminalized although that’s an interesting legal question all by itself.
When one considers the concert of effort by vote-counting agencies, Dems, media, Big Tech, corporate America, Pfizer in releasing the vaccine post-election, state legislatures in changing voting requirements, Congress, Trump-hating Republicans, Dr. Fauci for God’s sake …. How can anyone seriously believe the election wasn’t stolen? It was so clearly stolen it isn’t even debateable. The entire response has been the Covington kids lie on steroids.
This present darkness is the result. Biden is a lying, smearing, pants-pooping incompetent whose only promise — to ”shut down” the virus — has been made a tragic mockery.
The Republican Party is the real villian in this. They refused to back Trump in "Stop the Steal". Even that mediocrity Pence, who owes any popularity to being with Trump, wimped out and refused to do anything.
IRC, Chicom Mitch and Mittens were declaring the election fair and free of fruad 1 week after it was over. They had no basis for saying so, they just wanted Trump gone.
John henry said...
T-mobile is now censoring text messages containing links to The Gateway Pundit blog.
It's nationwide apparently. I can confirm that I can't send any link containing Gatewaypundit.com between my wife's and my phones.
No problem sending texts with non GP links.
Story here https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/01/just-like-soviet-russia-t-mobile-erasing-links-gateway-pundit-articles-send-text-message/
John LGBTQBNY Henry
1/3/22, 6:50 AM
You may have a point. I’m reading this on my t-mobile phone and the link appears dead and unclickable. I wouldn’t rule out google’s involvement either if I were you.
Nothing says “free and fair election” quite like the moronic deflection/distraction/denial of malevolent, disingenuous Democrats and their media poodles.
One of the advantages of the Electoral College is that we can be certain that they did in fact win a majority of electors.
In the sense that they were seated and cast their votes and they can't be unseated and their votes can't be recast, sure. There won't be any do-overs. But can we really be sure that in swing states the right electors were seated in the last presidential election? Electoral College results do have the effect of turning close elections into "landslides" but only if we're confident that the results in key states were indeed accurate.
What I object to with Trump, is first, that he didn't see that he was not as overwhelmingly popular with the country as he thought, and second, that he never admitted that there were things that he could have done differently himself that would have made the election turn out differently. Poor debate skills, inadequate debate preparation, failure to stop Democrat violations of state election laws, the lack of a strategy for dealing with election day irregularities, failure to engage competent lawyers after the election: if Trump wanted a different result in the election there was a lot that he could have done. Savaging Pence for not doing what he couldn't actually do on one day months after the voting was not something Trump should be proud of.
About 1876: The waning days of Reconstruction were as confused as the COVID year. It was impossible to say who was really elected, because there was so much fraud (and intimidation). One thing that strikes me is that while we were coming to look at Reconstruction and the Grant administration in a more positive light, Bush v. Gore made in mandatory in liberal circles to argue that Hayes had stolen the election, something that went against the evolving narrative about what was going on in the 1870s.
At some point, you need to stand down and allow the new administration to go forward.
You mean like the Resistance accepted Donald Trump's 2016 victory? Like trying to induce the Electoral College voters to not vote for DJT? The only result of that effort was 10 fewer votes for the nasty candidate, Hillary Clinton and court cases about "faithless" EC voters.
Dare we mention the two-year effort to remove DJT from office over the Russian-influence Hoax? Again, an HRC dirty trick, that John Brennan, Barrack Obama and James Comey knew was a lie, but said nothing. In fact, Brennan got a gig on CNN(MSNBC?) to denounce DJT and spew the HRC lie.
Democrats don't care about little niceties such as honest elections. All they care about is power, and they'll do anything necessary to get that power.
Everyone who grew up in Chicago (not the burbs) knows that vote stealing is a way of life for Democrat precinct captains. When voting technology changes so do the ways to steal votes.
In 2020 the Democrats took it to the max with their fake vote shenanigans. If you don't believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.The Democrats produced record tons of fake votes in 2020. There is no way 81 million Americans voted for Joe (hidin' in the basement) Biden.
Was it enough to steal the election? Who knows? We have no process for determining election fraud. That is something we need to deal with in the future.
When Democrats claim that democracy is at stake, they are correct (and projecting as usual). They are hoping to steal all future elections because people will not vote for their corrupt nonsense.
Of course Trump has a right to context the election, as do any candidates who suspect their loss may have been the result or election rigging. However, Trump has been unable to substantiate his claims of a stolen election. If he (or other disgruntled election losers) cannot provide within a reasonable time compelling evidence that strongly suggest or even prove election rigging, it is reasonable to conclude their continued claims are in bad faith, meant to salve the wounded egos of the loser and/or to taint the legitimacy of the victor, and, by extension, the entire election process.
Gee, why will you people not trust an ideological gang based on legal pocket-picking and who operate on a premise of "there is no truth but our truth"?
Mr. Krebs wrote:
"In 2020 the Democrats took it to the max with their fake vote shenanigans. If you don't believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.The Democrats produced record tons of fake votes in 2020. There is no way 81 million Americans voted for Joe (hidin' in the basement) Biden."
How do you know any of what you claim is true? Where is your data?
At this point we recognize, first that complaints about voting machines have been around for a long time. Jimmy Carter raised such concerns in 2017. Warren, Wyden, Klobuchar and Pocan also expressed their concern in a letter to Dominion Voting Systems in 2019. If Trump had won, we'd still be hearing charges against Dominion, only coming from Democrats.
Second, we also recognize that the Dominion question and talk of servers seized in Germany were a red herring in the Trump-Biden election. It was something incompetent lawyers who threw themselves into the case chose to emphasize. If there was serious fraud it would have been in the mail-in voting, so "proving" or "disproving" the allegations against Dominion is a distraction from the real issues. It's the sort of thing that "fact checkers" like to "debunk" in order to avoid having to ask hard questions and do real investigation.
"A Fulton County grand jury is looking into whether his antics rise to the level of a crime. I hope their work results in his fat loser ass being thrown into jail so we can end this psychodrama surrounding his wounded ego and get on with it."
Right, because nothing says return to constitutional norms and traditional, American civic values like putting oppositional political leaders in jail.
"I don’t believe political lies ought to be criminalized although that’s an interesting legal question all by itself."
Is it?
How do you know any of what you claim is true? Where is your data?
Joe Biden bragged about the Democrat's election fraud organization. How's that for proof of Democrat ill-intention? He even said that Obama used election fraud to get elected.
I think the election was rigged in the sense that big tech, by engaging in censorship and making what clearly amounted to illegal in-kind contributions, and state and local election officials, invoking baseless "emergency" powers, dramatically tilted the playing field in favor of Biden. Whether the actual vote-counting was corrupted by systematic fraud, I don't know -- I tend to doubt it because the aforementioned PRE-election rigging made it unnecessary to screw with the counts. However, whether I'm right or wrong about those things, I find the fact that the Dem response has been to pile on MORE censorship and suppression, to advocate putting Trump in jail, to in fact prosecute and punish January 6 protesters as if they were 9/11 terrorists or worse, is extremely telling. It is indisputably a totalitarian response, exactly as one would expect to see under a genuinely authoritarian regime. And it is, of course, completely hypocritical coming from the same idiots who proudly displayed "Question Authority" and "Dissent is the Highest Form of Patriotism" bumper stickers for years.
Robert Cook said...
How do you know any of what you claim is true? Where is your data?
Because of the nature of Fraud in cases like this if there is a reasonable suspicion of fraud with probable cause it becomes the duty of the company or entity to submit to audit and prove the accuracy of their submissions to the auditing agency.
It is too easy to destroy evidence and hide evidence of fraud and proving cases of fraud would be impossible otherwise.
Every CPA or mathematician will tell you that the fraud signals from the 2020 election were off the charts in any honest statistical analysis. Turnout variances in particular districts were obviously off the charts. Numerous CPA's and mathematicians have said these numbers would immediately trigger an audit of a company for fraud.
Democrats kicked poll observers out of multiple election centers during the time Biden gained 90% of counted votes and took the lead.
Laws were broken in multiple states over chain of custody of ballots and ballots have been destroyed.
The corporate media and the government are resorting to censorship.
No reasonable person thinks Joe Biden was legitimately elected. They wont even pretend to say it.
They just fall back on stupid arguments like yours.
Mike of Snoqualmie said...
How do you know any of what you claim is true? Where is your data?
Joe Biden bragged about the Democrat's election fraud organization. How's that for proof of Democrat ill-intention? He even said that Obama used election fraud to get elected.
That wont work with someone as blind as Cook.
He will never accept anything.
If Trump runs and wins in '24 (I hope he doesn't) he will be the first man since FDR to win three in a row...
Yeah. The idea that someone wanting to take it to court is the biggest threat to democracy never rang true.
I have no doubt that Joe got 81 million votes.
It is the legitimacy of those votes that I question.
Covid was used as a hammer to change (in many cases illegally) the mail-in voting laws in swing states.
Along with Zuck's drop boxes, Joe got the votes.
It's just that nobody knows who cast them...
Robert Cook said...
How do you know any of what you claim is true? Where is your data?
Molly Ball wrote all about it, and Time magazine printed it in Feb 2021. Give it a read. You may learn something. https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/
AMDG: "Trump took the idiotic shenanigans that the Democrats tried to pull in 2000, 2004, and 2016 and put them on steroids. A result is that he left the Republic in worse shape than when he started."
LOL
You are just pissed that Trump, for all his faults, EXPOSED what the real condition of the "republic" (we sure aren't one anymore) was/is in.
I guess you still believe in magical burst water pipes as well.
AMDG: "If he hadn’t whined about Georgia during the wind up,to the Georgia Run-off we would not have lost two Senate seats and a lot of the incompetence of the last year would have been prevented."
A pathetic rewriting of history. Kemp and Raffensberger made sure the republican senate candidates lost their runoffs. Just as Raffensberger empowered his pro-democratical staffers to continue to lie to the media about "the phone call" and to assist Stacey Abrams and Zuckerburg in their election corruption efforts.
But you just go on being you on this subject. Raffensberger's democrat staffers and pals continue to need your help!
Achilles: "That wont work with someone as blind as Cook.
He will never accept anything."
Cookie isn't "blind". He's actively lying.
He isn't our Resident Stalinist for nuttin'!
It's OK for corrupt Hillary and her partners at MSNBC to spread Russia Russia lies for 3+ years.
Lurker21: "Second, we also recognize that the Dominion question and talk of servers seized in Germany were a red herring in the Trump-Biden election. It was something incompetent lawyers who threw themselves into the case chose to emphasize. If there was serious fraud it would have been in the mail-in voting, so "proving" or "disproving" the allegations against Dominion is a distraction from the real issues. It's the sort of thing that "fact checkers" like to "debunk" in order to avoid having to ask hard questions and do real investigation."
Bears repeating.
It's possible that Biden did get 81 million popular votes and that he did get more popular votes than Trump. That's not wildly inconsistent with earlier election results, with the growth in the country's population, and with how Trump did in polls during his presidency. What's more debatable is whether the got the necessary 11,000 votes in Arizona, 12,000 votes in Georgia, or 21,000 votes in Wisconsin.
Trump probably does maintain that more people voted for him out of an inability to admit that he wasn't as popular with the public as he thought he was. He probably should have recognized that he wasn't going to overturn the reported results of the election and that he isn't going to be able to do so now, but the idea that the inability to "prove" something that is notoriously difficult (and often impossible) to prove means that claims were made in bad faith is fallacious.
Elections in Mexico have been notoriously fraud-ridden. The fact that Lopez-Obrador or Cárdenas or some other losing candidate wasn't able to "prove" the election was stolen before the inauguration of the next president is not evidence that their claims weren't made in good faith. Nor does the fact that Trump couldn't demonstrate which votes were fraudulent and have them thrown out mean that the purpose of his claims was to discredit "democracy." Even without anything Trump has claimed, we have enough evidence of efforts to skew the election in Biden's direction to make us very suspicious of how "our democracy" works.
Kevin said...
Our election system lacks a clear audit mechanism and a speedy path to rule on objections.
------------
are you saying audit will be post election? when it will already be too late!
what is needed is secure confirmation as election is proceeding.
instead of counting at a central location there should be reporting from each individual precinct in situ with witnesses attesting correctness. if you are collecting from drop boxes there should be secure custody etc.
The intimidation certainly worked with the US supreme court. They denied standing to states seeking investigation of vote fraud. States !
Alito enjoined Pennsylvania to segregate late mail-in ballots and was ignored.
Don't look for this report in the New York Times or the Washington Post, so if they don't report it, it never happened and the election was "free and fair."
2020 Arizona Election Integrity: All legal Maricopa County ballots utilize 80lb Votesecure ballot stock.
Senate Report: "At this time, 10 different papers have been found. Several of these paper stocks include paper with the weight from 20lbs to 30lbs;"
https://mobile.twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1447373589875937287
I think it's moronic of anybody to get upset when counterfeit ballots have been uncovered in AZ, it's an insult to the republic to even mention it, it might cause people to lose faith in the integrity of our elections!
One thing is certain, no investigations of elections should be allowed.
You won't win a Pulitzer Prize reporting on counterfeit ballots, that's for sure, unless it can be shown that they were produced by Republicans.
"At some point, you need to stand down and allow the new administration to go forward."
Should this have been said and emphasized in 2017 and then repeated for 4 years?
Payback can be a bitch, and the Democrats have a bunch of outstanding IOU's.
"Molly Ball wrote all about it, and Time magazine printed it in Feb 2021. Give it a read. You may learn something. https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/"
Can you give me the bullet points or specific quotes from the article that prove election rigging by the Democrats and/or other entities opposed to Trump? Just skimming the article, it appears to describe legal efforts mounted to ensure Trump or those acting on his behalf could not play havoc with the election to prevent an honest vote count.
Robert Cook said...
"Molly Ball wrote all about it, and Time magazine printed it in Feb 2021. Give it a read. You may learn something. https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/"
Can you give me the bullet points or specific quotes from the article that prove election rigging by the Democrats and/or other entities opposed to Trump? Just skimming the article, it appears to describe legal efforts mounted to ensure Trump or those acting on his behalf could not play havoc with the election to prevent an honest vote count.
Pathetic.
You aren't this stupid.
You are just a liar at this point.
"Pathetic.
"You aren't this stupid.
"You are just a liar at this point."
Namecalling is neither an argument nor documentary support for a claim. It is, often, a tactic of those who lack an argument or adequate support for a claim.
Let's play with hypotheticals for a minute. Suppose in 2022 the GOP wins control of the House and Senate. Suppose further that in 2024 Trump runs and it's a close election with the Democratic candidate winning by a hair. Suppose further that Trump says, "It doesn't really matter who won, the Democrats are evil personified who have been ruining this nation and it's necessary to throw them out. I call on the GOP congressmen and senators to use their powers under the Electoral Count Act to reject the Democratic electors, throw the election into the House of Representatives, and elect me president. I alone can save this country!" Would that be a "coup?" If that happened in a foreign country, we'd have no problems seeing that as a type of coup, abusing legal mechanisms to overturn an election. Would it be worse in if Trump were to invent tall tales about election fraud in order to give GOP congressmen and senators cover to do the exact same thing without incurring the wrath of the voters? Now do the same analysis but with the Democrats controlling both houses and a Democratic candidate saying the same things.
I'm curious how the Trump supporters here analyze these hypothetical fact patterns, assuming, as they must, that the facts give for purposes of the analysis are true.
From Miele’s article:
Moreover, the argument that Trump “allowed” the riot to take place because he did not send National Guard troops to intervene is wrong on both the facts and the logic of the case. As I showed in my last column, Trump did in fact request 10,000 National Guard troops to be deployed, but his request was ignored by the Pentagon, the speaker of the House, the Capitol Police and the mayor of Washington, D.C.
Which I interpret to mean that Muriel Bowser, Nancy Pelosi, and Mark Milley are even more complicit than Trump. Arrest them NOW!
Levene: "We can finish with Trump’s request to the Georgia Secretary of State to “find” another 10,000 Trump votes."
The actual transcript of the call put the complete lie to the claim Trump did anything wrong.
But I guess Levene forgot that we have the actual transcript. Spoiler: We do.
As we do with the Ukraine phone call which was perfectly appropriate but used as the basis for another sham-peachment.
Let me guess: Levene thinks Trump told everyone to drink bleach and that Palin said she could see Russia from her house!
The 2020 fraudspiracy is a new age religious cult. The very fact that Trump can't prove it is prima facie evidence that it must be true.
If you define "a reasonable time" as prior to the planned inauguration date, there is no way to effectively challenge the results of a presidential election. Gore vs Bush took weeks but only involved some counties in one state. It is often stated that Trump "lost" cases in court but what actually happened was the particular courts refused the case because it lacked the standing to hear the case. They never weighed in on the merits of the case.
Who has "standing"? That's part of the problem. Because it is not clearly stated, individual cases have to be brought (which leads to appeals, etc.) which takes more time than is available to challenge the case. Then add in the state versus federal issues and the ability of individual areas to slow-walk data when it suits them.
So what is to be done? Sometimes you have to suck it up and take the "L".
I personally had no idea if Biden or Trump would win given COVID and the amount of division in the country. I decided to stay up and listen to the bitter end. I was surprised with the media refused to call a state (or states) for Trump despite a lead in the hundreds of thousands but then turned around and called states for Biden minutes after the polls closed with no vote total to show why they made that decision. I was astounded to see a number of states (in what appeared to be coordinated) announce they were suspending the vote count until morning. I remember doing some quick math and thinking Trump could lose 2/3 of the remaining states and still win. Imagine my shock when I switched it on early to find out he lost all but one - and apparently votes still had been counted in the intervening time??? I have been watching elections for over 50 years and never saw that happen before.
Then I learned, from Time Magazine, the election had been "fortified" and they knew about it far enough in advance to have the information ready to print in a very short turnaround.
I don't know if the 2020 election was "stolen" but I understand why people would question it.
At some point, you need to stand down and allow the new administration to go forward.
Tell it to "The Resistance". They went 4 years without ever "standing down", despite the fact that it was very clear that all their "Trump illegitimate" claims were total garbage.
You're a former law professor. you know all about precedent
The Democrats keep on establishing precedents, then getting really upset when those precedents hit them. Tough
Howard said...
The 2020 fraudspiracy is a new age religious cult.
No, Howie, that was the "Trump - Russian collusion" cult
The very fact that Trump can't prove it is prima facie evidence that it must be true.
You can't prove fraud once the poll watchers have been kicked out and the "vote counters" have been allowed access to the ballots with no supervision.
That's why that doesn't happen in honest elections.
Since it did happen in Milwaukee, Atlanta, Detroit, and Philly,, it was done by Democrats, and in all cases the result was to flip their States, and the Election, to Biden, if you're not a moron you say "there is no evidence teh election was honest, and a great deal of evidence the election was stolen".
By blocking the poll watchers, the Democrats deliberately destroyed the evidence. Only a nutcase says "it's perfectly reasonable for honest people to destroy the evidence that would have shown their honesty"
Blogger Howard said...
The 2020 fraudspiracy is a new age religious cult. The very fact that Trump can't prove it is prima facie evidence that it must be true.
Howard is so sure the 2020 election was pure and holy that no one should be allowed to look behind the curtain and Zuckerfart donated that $400 million to insure good government triumphed.
QED
It is often stated that Trump "lost" cases in court but what actually happened was the particular courts refused the case because it lacked the standing to hear the case. They never weighed in on the merits of the case.
Who has "standing"? That's part of the problem.
Thank-you for making this point. The Texas lawsuit was rock solid on the merits. The Supreme Court failed America.
As far as "standing", it's a fake made-up judiciary concept that has no basis (@Barnes_Law)
A strong majority of Americans think Biden stole the election.
No president has been this unpopular this fast.
Cook can tell his lies. Howard can be a troll.
But the tide is turning on the illegitimate regime and it's supporters.
The leftists have told too many lies and their house of cards is falling apart. It will be interesting to see a real J6 commission start interviewing the J6 prisoners in a few months. The videos of capitol police beating the hell out of women are coming out slowly.
Sure they can count on some fake republicans to run interference for them but that card has been played a few too many times.
Rosen just admitted that he unilaterally ordered an operation for J6 to "Protect Vice President Pence" that "infiltrated" the protests.
The only question now is how far will the pendulum swing.
The Communist and Nazis were all about intimidation!
So what's new about this?
}'m curious how the Trump supporters here analyze these hypothetical fact patterns"
I am curious how you interpret the fact that counterfeit ballots have been discovered in Maricopa County, AZ.
"A strong majority of Americans think Biden stole the election."
I just did a quick Google search and found several stories reporting one third of Americans believe Biden stole the election. I found no sources reporting a greater number of Americans hold that belief.
How does "one third" equate to any kind of majority, much less a "strong" majority?
Now, I do find reports that nearly two thirds of Republicans believe Biden stole the election, but, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise, non-Republican citizens are Americans.
"The Supreme Court failed America."
So, the majority conservative Supreme Court failed America? I have no doubt they have, and will going forward, but not necessarily in this instance.
The 2020 Presidential election was in fact "stolen," or at least, heavily influenced, by behind-the-scenes Facebook (Zuckerberg) money and maneuverings. See:
https://thefederalist.com/2021/10/12/the-2020-election-wasnt-stolen-it-was-bought-by-mark-zuckerberg/
Zuckerberg is a Trumper
Left Bank of the Charles said...
“Millions of us independently reached the same conclusion.”
Independently? I do not think that word means what you think it means.
That's because you're a Leftist, and Leftists always engage in group-think.
I looked at the fraudulent activities the Democrats were engaging in (removing ballot verification measures, blocking poll watchers, kicking out poll watchers and the press when there were still ballots to count), and came to the conclusion that the Democrats were engaging in fraud.
As did every other reasonable person.
No one had to tell me the Democrats were stealing the election
wild chicken said...
"there's no place to contest an election fraud in the US system. Courts won't take it and nothing procedural will either."
BS. Plenty of courts weighed in and even offered to hear evidence they didn't have to hear, but Team Trump folded like a house of cards.
Really? Which courts. Which cases? You should have no problem linking to those decisions, right?
There are 3000+ counties - were their elections all fraudulent?
Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, Fulton County.
Those 4 counties flipped the election, after all four engaged in multiple instances of fraudulent behavior. Shutting down the count while there were still votes to count, kicking out poll watchers, forcing poll watchers to stand where they could not effectively monitor the pol workers
How do you "audit" results except by human hand recounts? We can do these now when results are close. Why recount when they're not?
1: Biden's margin of victory was 43k votes. If that's not "close" in a national election, what is?
2: You check every single absentee ballot mailing envelope to confirm they exist, that they are connected to a valid voter, and that the chain of custody for the ballots was secure. Fulton County has totally failed this, for one example
3: You contact every single new absentee ballot voter in close States, which is to say people who supposedly voted absentee in 2020, but did not vote in 2018 or 2016. You confirm that they exist, and did vote in that close State, and did not vote anywhere else. you keep on doing that until you've found more fraudulent voters than the margin of victory, or until there's fewer new voters left to check than the remaining margin
Now, anyone who's paid the slightest attention knows this. So why are you talking out you ass about it?
Hey, look! Douglas B. Levene is back with more bullshit!
Let's start with my previous response, that Doug had no response to, since he's full of shit:
Douglas B. Levene said...
3) What fueled the anger of the crowd was Trump’s campaign of lies about how the election was stolen by fraud. He may not be guilty of the legal crime of inciting violence, but politically and morally he was responsible.
...
@Yancey: I have said all along that best practices require routine post-election audits, just like financial statements are routinely audited.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to bullshit on stilts
1: No honest vote counter blocks poll watchers from doing their jobs
2: No honest vote counter shuts down the count election night while there are still votes to count, and then kicks out all the poll watchers and press
The Democrat "vote counters" in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, and Fulton County (Atlanta) all did both those things.
And all 4 manages to flip their States from Trump to Biden
What fueled the anger of the crowd was the fact that they don't have their heads up their asses, and so they recognize fraud when they see it
There were no post election audits where the envelopes were matched up and counted. Democrats have fought audits every step of the way. In short, The Democrats have acted like they stole the election, the basic audits you claim to believe in haven't been done, yet you still claim to know that the election wasn't stolen.
Go fuck yourself. "Elections require audits" == "questionable elections without audits shouldn't' be trusted". Either admit that Trump's claim the election was stolen is a reasonable claim that hasn't been shown to be false, or STFU about "best practices" and own teh actual practices of the 2020 election
You only get one
Now let's go to Douglas B. Levene currently babbling bullshit:
Let's play with hypotheticals for a minute. Suppose in 2022 the GOP wins control of the House and Senate. Suppose further that in 2024 Trump runs and it's a close election with the Democratic candidate winning by a hair. Suppose further that Trump says, "It doesn't really matter who won, the Democrats are evil personified who have been ruining this nation and it's necessary to throw them out. I call on the GOP congressmen and senators to use their powers under the Electoral Count Act to reject the Democratic electors, throw the election into the House of Representatives, and elect me president. I alone can save this country!" Would that be a "coup?"
Let's try a different "hypothetical":
Suppose in 2020 the Democrats stole the election, Donald Trump had proof of that, and the Democrats faked up a riot to block the House and Senate from considering the evidence that teh Democrats stole the election
Would that be a "coup" by the Democrats?
Because my scenario is a hell of a lot more realistic than yours
If that happened in a foreign country, we'd have no problems seeing that as a type of coup, abusing legal mechanisms to overturn an election.
And multiple people pointed out that if we saw the Democrats election shenanigans in any foreign country, we'd ahve no problem seeing that as vote frauds nd stealing an election
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37243190
Vote rigging: How to spot the tell-tale signs
...
More votes than ballot papers issued
When the polls close, and before they open the boxes, election officials normally have to go through a complicated and rather tedious process known as the reconciliation of ballots.
After they have counted how many ballot papers they received in the morning, they then need to count how many are left, and how many ‒ if any ‒ were torn or otherwise spoiled and had to be put aside.
The result will tell them how many papers should be in the box. It should also match the number of names checked off on the register.
...
Delay in announcing results
... You know, like when the "vote counters" "stop counting" in the middle of the evening, kick the press and poll watchers out, then start counting again the next morning, and miraculously have just enough votes to get their guy over the top
Howard: "Zuckerberg is a Trumper"
I'll just file that next to:
- There is no inflation
- There were no Americans left behind in Afghanistan
- Kyle Rittenhouse crossed state lines illegally!
- The antifa riots were peaceful!.....and also never happened at all!
- Trump colluded with Russia!
- Putin changed vote totals!
- Trump told people to drink bleach!
- "hands up don't shoot"!
- Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her house
Zuckerburg spent $500M to "fortify" the election in the democraticals favor.....you know, to "help" Trump.
These are the sorts of lies a lefty has to tell himself to remain a lefty in good standing, which Howard most certainly is.
this raises interesting Q :
Stalin was really smart man - at the final stage of who counts the votes :
while Candidates have interest in Election Result do they have stake/standing in election process?
or is it only the voters / electors who need to worry about process integrity?
how to analyze this ?
Michael K said...
The intimidation certainly worked with the US supreme court. They denied standing to states seeking investigation of vote fraud. States !
Alito enjoined Pennsylvania to segregate late mail-in ballots and was ignored.
-----------
Can you list the States?
under Federalism why do States even need to involve let alone "petition" = beg with bowls at Supreme Court?
something is seriously wrong with constitution/legal framework here or typical R incompetence stupidity?
this may be why Gateway Pundit was blocked
Feds Finally Admit to Running Secretive DOJ “Commandos” at Jan. 6 Trump Protests
under Federalism why do States even need to involve let alone "petition" = beg with bowls at Supreme Court?
Under the Constitution states are charged with setting election rules, many of which were changed by Governors (all D) without the legislature being involved as the law requires.
Now, I do find reports that nearly two thirds of Republicans believe Biden stole the election, but, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise, non-Republican citizens are Americans.
It's the noncitizens we are concerned about plus the blank mail-in ballots that have no provenance.
@Drago: Let's go to the transcript. Trump, speaking to Raffensperger :"But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I’ve heard. And they are removing machinery, and they’re moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal finds. And you can’t let it happen, and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I’m notifying you that you’re letting it happen. So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state....So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. You know, we have that in spades already."
I am not surprised that none of the Trump supporters here even attempted to answer my questions about a hypothetical set of facts. If they were students in my class, they'd get marked down for evasive responses.
I'm not surprised that Douglas B. Levene has not even attempted to answer my questions about the actual set of facts.
Because he's utterly full of shit, and he knows it.
See the GA "quote"
Trump provided Raffensperger with ~170k disputed voters. He asked the GA Sec of State, whose JOB it is to keep the elections honest, to look at those names, and see if he could find 11k that were provably fraudulent.
Since Raffensperger was refusing to look at any of them.
Trump's asking Raffensperger to just do his job, and Levene's Turing that into BlueAnnon BS about stealing elections.
Oh, and Dougie, i notice you didn't respond to my far more reasonable hypothetical. If you won't play the game, you don't get to bitch when others won't play, either
Douglas B. Levene: "@Drago: Let's go to the transcript."
LOL
But you didnt go to "the transcript", did you?
And the reason you didnt becomes obvious upon deeper inspection.
You pulled one little snippet from a call that was over an hour long, because of course you did. Further, the topic of that call was to discuss a potential resolution to the lawsuit the Trump campaign had filed based on investigative work which turned up many problems with the vote in GA.
And that call had lawyers from both sides and Mark Meadows participating as well.
And during the full conversation of that call, there were many problems identified with, for instance, chain of custody for ballots, which were all referenced during the call. And the number of ballots with issues identified far exceeded the margin of Biden's Earpiece's supposed "win".
Here's how one commentator summed it up: "So, Trump isn’t asking for Raffensberger to produce votes out of the air, he’s saying, ‘Look here are all the problematic issues/ballots, if you say that there weren’t issues there, can you produce your evidence? Otherwise, see the evidence we have. Sit down with us and see what we have. Recognize we’re showing you evidence of thousands of votes with issues, more than enough to overcome the difference."
Yes, the call was one in which a challenge to exchange available evidence and to test that evidence was made.
So thats the context our quite deceptive, and purposely so, commenter Dougie Levene, purposely omitted.
A degree of omission that easily exceeds the levels needed to properly label him an Aaron Rupar-like liar.
An Aaron Rupar-like liar? Oh yes, quite expected for another run of the mill and self-satisfied "academic".
With performances like the one above, one weeps for the state of American Academia and the frauds that traipse its "hallowed halls".
If Dougie Levene were a student in my class, and tried to fob off that shoddy and deceptive work product as an accurate portrayal of a contested event, he wouldn't just get marked down, he'd earn a review of his admissions record to determine if a catastrophic error hadnt been made at admissions.
@Drago: I quoted accurately from the transcript. You can spin it however you want. That’s what confirmation bias is all about.
Let’s look at Trump’s specific claims. Let’s start with one he made on Twitter after the election. He tweeted that there are "millions of ballots that have been altered by Democrats, only for Democrats." What is the evidence for this claim? Don’t get distracted and start talking about all his other claims. Just focus on this one claim — millions of altered ballots — and tell me what the evidence is for this claim.
Hey, look, lying Levene is back!
1: No honest vote counters block poll watchers from doing their job. Yet we saw that in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, and Fulton Counties
2: No honest vote counters stop counting in the middle of the night on election night, while there are still votes to count. Yet we saw that in Milwaukee, Detroit, Philly, and Fulton Counties
Flip those States back to Trump, and he wins.
now, are you going to address this? Or do even you know you're lying, and that Trump's right, the election was stolen
Hey Dougie,
Care to explain why it is teh Mayor of Madison is so opposed to an election audit?
https://justthenews.com/nation/states/madison-mayor-continues-fight-against-wisconsins-election-investigation
Do you have anything to say about this Democrat opposing your supposedly supported "best practices"?
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