१५ सप्टेंबर, २०२१
"So intent was Pence on being Trump’s loyal second-in-command — and potential successor — that he asked confidants if there were ways he could accede to Trump’s demands and avoid certifying..."
"... the results of the election on Jan. 6. In late December, the authors reveal, Pence called Dan Quayle, a former vice president and fellow Indiana Republican, for advice.
Quayle was adamant, according to the authors. 'Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away,' he said.
But Pence pressed him, the authors write, asking if there were any grounds to pause the certification because of ongoing legal challenges. Quayle was unmoved, and Pence ultimately agreed, according to the book.
When Pence said he planned to certify the results, the president lashed out. In the Oval Office on Jan. 5, the authors write, Pence told Trump he could not thwart the process, that his role was simply to 'open the envelopes.' 'I don’t want to be your friend anymore if you don’t do this,' Trump replied, according to the book, later telling his vice president, 'You’ve betrayed us. I made you. You were nothing.'"
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"But Pence pressed him, the authors write, asking if there were any grounds to pause the certification because of ongoing legal challenges."
Insurrection!
This is the problem with Woodward. He not only lies, but he ascribes motives to people that he cannot possibly know, and then tries to pass it off as truth. I have no doubt Pence was reluctant to certify the election. With all the irregularities, I would have been hesitant as well. But the law is clear, it is up to the STATES to certify their electors, and once they have done that, Pence really did not have a lot of choice. If you want to blame someone for Biden and company, look at your state legislatures. They have a lot to answer for in 5 or 6 states.
I have no doubt Pence explored the question to find out what his options were and where his duty lies, as he should have, but this story probably overstates Pence's enthusiasm for a particular outcome. In any case, those last days were very bad for Trump. For the first time in his presidency, he actually justified some previously irresponsible accusations of his political opponents.
[Fill in the blank], you’re no Dan Quayle.
The responsibility is the media's. They're the ones who ratchet up everything into a Trump misdeed, and Trump is the one who pushes back. Trump actually had the last word though you won't find it. My legal remedies are exhausted and now it's time for an orderly transition. Reported instead was the second Trump impeachment.
Quayle was adamant, according to the authors. 'Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away,' he said.
Dan Quayle was the constitutional expert Pence chose to consult?
Or was it political advice from the Bush Sr. VP?
I believe Trump threw a tantrum at Pence. He has done that in public since January 6.
Mike Pence served our country well and gave good advice to Trump. Trump has disqualified himself from getting my vote by the lousy campaign he ran in 2020 and the way he conducted himself after the election.
Pence knew what the right thing to do was.
Pence did not do it.
Pence is a coward.
Pence was always an empty suit...the most boring man on earth. He isn't going anywhere on his own.
Trump spoke truth again.
Pence is nothing but a kneeler. We would still be an English colony if the founders were like him.
The best thing Trump did was pull the masks off the cowards and traitors that have wormed their way into the Republican Party. All of the affronts to the constitution and our freedoms have happened under the imprimatur of bipartisanship.
The only reason Romneycare passed with no republican votes is because they didn't need any.
McCain made that crystal clear when he refused to repeal it.
Pence asked Quayle for advice? Now that really hurts my assessment of Pence.
'Pence asked Quayle for advice? Now that really hurts my assessment of Pence.'
If he asked Quayle for advice on his short game I'd forgive him. Dan is supposed to be a really good golfer...
THis is woodward, so who know if its true. OTOH, I see no evidence that Pence disavowing the book. Why would Pence call Qualye? He's no consitutuional scholar! And he's a Bush guy.
In any case, Trump wasn't asking Pence to rob a bank, all he had to do was not certify, it would've gone to the SCOTUS, and that would be that. Pence would've been a hero to Trump and the 70 million who voted for him. Instead, he wimped out. And now he's running around saying the election wasn't fraudulent and we don't need to do anything about voting irregularities.
Its amazing how the DC GOPe simply REFUSE to do what would be popular and right. They REFUSED to supposrt Trump in getting rid of illegal immigration or securing the border, which is what American want. They REFUSE to support getting us out of Endless wars in the middle east. They REFUSE to fight the D's on almost everything. They even REFUSED to let Trump have his cabinet picks or support him in the fake Russian Collusion hoax.
Pence stands for nothing. He is nothing. Just like GOPe.
In short order we will find the Woodward claims that make Trump look bad are forever labeled true. The claims that make Biden look bad by extension will be declared false then forgotten.
The Dems are the experts at manipulation. First, they steal the election. Then they stymie any investigations and lawsuits. And now it is the case that anyone who doubts that Biden won is an insurrectionist and conspiracy nut.
A fair inquiry of very suspicious activity in six states is alleged to be a right-wing coup.
The Dems planned this all out. Molly Ball's article in "Time" only told half the story.
Dan Quayle's best line, "I live in Arizona. There was no theft."
How the hell does he know?
Pence is a very pathetic figure. He would make an interesting antihero in a novel of our times.
It's hardly shocking that Pence wanted to help Trump and asked if there were ways he could do so, and hardly surprising that he was told there wasn't much he could do, and it shouldn't infuriate or enrage people that he took the advice that he got.
I always thought Trump treated Pence shabbily. It was an open question what Pence could do. My understanding is it was up to Congress and should have played out there. I don't think Pence could have unilaterally decided anything, and to expect him to do so based on his relationship to the president was to demand too much.
People always said the vice presidency was a thankless job, and it certainly worked out that way for Pence.
Amadeus 48 said...
I believe Trump threw a tantrum at Pence. He has done that in public since January 6.
Mike Pence served our country well and gave good advice to Trump. Trump has disqualified himself from getting my vote by the lousy campaign he ran in 2020 and the way he conducted himself after the election.
The uniparty of corruptocrats, traitors, and rapists exists and maintains it's hold on power because of people like this.
Wince said...Dan Quayle was the constitutional expert Pence chose to consult?
Dan Quayle is the only other living VP who failed to get reelected. So he's the only person who's been in Pence's situation.
I suspect Pence already knew his options were limited, he didn't really need a second opinion. Once the states certify, Congress's job is to simply count the electoral votes. For Pence to do otherwise would have created a Constitutional crisis.
That being said, I detect a lot of smugness about constitutional process from folks who (back in 2016) tried very hard to subvert the will of the people and have Electors change their votes. Some of these "defenders of the constitution" even suggested it was the patriotic thing to do. Given the situational devotion to the Constitution such folks have demonstrated, I have no doubt they would have sought other creative ways around the election results had things gone the other way.
I think we are being a little hard on Dan Quayle.
Tim said...
This is the problem with Woodward. He not only lies, but he ascribes motives to people that he cannot possibly know, and then tries to pass it off as truth.'
*********
I wouldn't be surprised if Woodward claims Trump also said the following to Pence:
"I made you what you are today, you worthless good-for-nothing!"
"Think? I don't pay you to think!"
He simply consults his "Film Noir Cheesy Dialog" reference book.
It is difficult to imagine that Pence would not have explored his alternatives as allegations of election “irregularities” mounted. Democrats would, of course, be horrified because they believe such matters are easily resolved using political ideology and foregoing critical thinking.
Regardless, It’s difficult to imagine that the authors actually have reliable sources for the assertions contained in the Althouse excerpt. But for today, so what?
NYT v. Sullivan should be overruled
Bob Woodward wrote about Nixon in 1973. I graduated from high school in 1974. That was nearly 50 years ago.
Why isn't Woodward drooling on a bib in a rest home with "Fuck Joe Biden"?
Is there any group that the Trumpists hate more than...
...Republicans??!!??
John McCain: We prefer people who weren't captured.
Mitt Romney: RINO
Mitch McConnell: "Dumb son of a bitch... stone cold loser."
Kevin McCarthy: "Kiss my ass"
Bush 43: "Failed"
Dick Cheney: "I didn't like Cheney when he was a vice president; I don't like him now."
Paul Ryan: "A curse... a SUPER-RINO"
Doug Ducey: "A terrible Republican"
Brian Kemp: "A complete disaster"
Ben Sasse: "Lightweight"
Scott Walker, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Carly Fiorina, Jon Huntsman, Rick Santorum, Reagan, Rove, Will, Krauthammer...
All insulted by Trump.
And nobody knows better than I do, that my posting this comment will elicit nothing so much as multiple members of the Althouse commentariat all saying that Trump was exactly right. And what we have left, is a Party increasingly led by D-listers and shitposting freaks. Matt Gaetz; Louie Gohmert; Marjorie Taylor Qreene; Paul Gosar; MAGA maniacs who couldn't win a competitive election anywhere in the country.
So this is how Quayle transforms from being the guy so dumb he couldn't spell potato to political genius in the eyes of the Left. Interesting.
Pence should have contacted the legislatures of the states in question, asked them to vote on whether their state's electors should be formally certified and then produce an official document if the answer was no. The secretaries of state have no constitutional authority to certify an election (federal) unless the legislature asks them to. The legislature can rescind this delegation at any time. The legislatures can believe it was a "failed election" and require a complete forensic audit before certification. Then the supreme court would have been forced to tell the secretaries of state they are not allowed to overrule the legislature. or to explain how "sole" applies to anyone other than the legislature in the constitution. I am curious why none of the legislatures did not ignore their governors, call themselves into session and vote. Pennsylvania used the excuse that the governor would not call them into session, but the federal constitution gives them the sole power, and executive holders none in all matters pertaining to the election.
As with so many Trump era incidents, two words help clarify one’s analysis: Imagine Obama.
Imagine Obama lost the 2012 election because of midnight shenanigans in predominanty white, Republican-controlled cities.
Do you think Holder would immediately conclude “no evidence of vote fraud?”
Do you think Biden would hesitate a second before putting the disputed states’ envelopes to one side?
Finally, what do you think Romney would have done? Other than ask Obama, “Do you want me to concede now, or should I wait to do it dramatically on the Capitol steps, just before taking the oath?”
JSM
Trump has disqualified himself from getting my vote by the lousy campaign he ran in 2020 and the way he conducted himself after the election.
I disagree. The campaign was well done but they failed to anticipate the fraud, I grant that. In 2024, Trump may be too old and too toxic so I would prefer Desantis or Rand Paul. If Trump gets the nomination I will obviously vote for him. After the 2020 election was not his best effort but he was thwarted by the left's intimidation of any law firms that would support his lawsuits.
For Pence to do otherwise would have created a Constitutional crisis.
How would you describe the crisis that we’ve experienced since the election Biden ostensibly won? We had a choice of crises, and Pence chose poorly, if not for himself, then for the country. He could have been a man of destiny rather than a disappearing from history or being remembered by those who recall him as a cowardly loser.. Sometimes a man…lost my train of thought.
"Is there any group that the Trumpists hate more than...
...Republicans??!!??"
Ignorant assholes?
someone asked...
Is there any group that the Trumpists hate more than...
...Republicans??!!??
Well, to start with, those people you put on your list
I fail to understand this worry over a "Constitutional crisis". We should be having constitutional crises on a regular basis - that's what it's there for. It role is to balance three (formerly) co-equal branches of government and some of the big questions around what is constitutional and what is not need to be resolved out loud and in public, instead of behind closed doors or surreptitiously via judicial fiat. The best way to yank our Republic out of its slow slide to tyranny is with a solid, quick, yank back toward Constitutionality and reining in the administrative and judicial branches of the Federal Government.
What this republic needs is more Constitutional crises. And preferably people such as Clapper, Comey, Brennan, Pelosi, and Milley hanging from a gallows on the Mall in DC.
Blogger john mosby said...
As with so many Trump era incidents, two words help clarify one’s analysis: Imagine Obama.
Imagine Obama lost the 2012 election because of midnight shenanigans in predominanty white, Republican-controlled cities.
Do you think Holder would immediately conclude “no evidence of vote fraud?”
Do you think Biden would hesitate a second before putting the disputed states’ envelopes to one side?
Finally, what do you think Romney would have done? Other than ask Obama, “Do you want me to concede now, or should I wait to do it dramatically on the Capitol steps, just before taking the oath?”
JSM
Your hypothetical sort of describes the 2000 election. Although 2000 was a much closer election than 2020.
What we had was a very serious, almost entirely civil, litigation battle. Unlike the preposterous “Kraken” lawsuits of 2020.
And the Republicans in 2000 didn’t roll over. The titans of the GOP Establishment — James Baker, Karl Rove, Ben Ginsburg — waged a brilliant and tough-minded legal battle and won it.
I truly don’t know what you are thinking about 2020, and I suspect you don’t have any clear idea yourself.
"A fair inquiry of very suspicious activity in six states is alleged to be a right-wing coup. "
Actually it was alleged to be a clown show carried out by the usual right wing incompetents. And that's the way it has played out.
Trump relied on people he trusted, and their wilful blindness was not foreseen by Trump.
I am still amazed by the actions of the DOJ, FBI, SCOTUS, eGOP, Republican Party, State GOP in many states especially GA, etc.
Michael K said...
I disagree. The campaign was well done but they failed to anticipate the fraud, I grant that.
Trump's super power is he ripped off the masks and showed the corruption and incompetence in the Establishment GOP.
This is actually a very good list. The only ones I disagree with is Walker (that probably lost an election due to voter fraud), and Reagan. I don't remember Trump insulting Reagan. Walker did a lot of good in WI from what I saw. I am still shocked at how the local GOP was illegally investigated using lawfare by Democrats, and nothing happened. Reminds me of what is happening with the Jan. 6th "Insurrection" protesters, what a mark of shame on the US Justice System.
The good news is most of the actual GOP voters support Trump by 85% from what I read.
The NeoCons and RINO's have been shown to be a vocal minority within the GOP. The Weekly Standard, Bulkwark, Kristol, Lincoln Party have all been shown to be All hat and no cattle.
The problem is they still control the party infrastructure. Which is why they are supporting candidates that do not reflect their voters, and are often VERY WEAK and lose in the General Elections (GA Senators). Or they run a bunch of candidates in the primary to dilute the vote to allow their favored RINO to win.
Is there any group that the Trumpists hate more than...
...Republicans??!!??
John McCain: We prefer people who weren't captured.
Mitt Romney: RINO
Mitch McConnell: "Dumb son of a bitch... stone cold loser."
Kevin McCarthy: "Kiss my ass"
Bush 43: "Failed"
Dick Cheney: "I didn't like Cheney when he was a vice president; I don't like him now."
Paul Ryan: "A curse... a SUPER-RINO"
Doug Ducey: "A terrible Republican"
Brian Kemp: "A complete disaster"
Ben Sasse: "Lightweight"
Scott Walker, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Carly Fiorina, Jon Huntsman, Rick Santorum, Reagan, Rove, Will, Krauthammer...
All insulted by Trump.
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