"Because England was not the creation of intellectuals, patriotism has never been an intellectual pastime. The ecstasies of 19th-century Romantic nationalism which gave birth to Germany and Italy were forged by poets, musicians and the re-assemblers of lost national epics and folk traditions. By this time England had been muddling along for a millennium. Unlike nations ushered into being by Enlightenment intellectuals which enshrined philosophical abstractions as national principles ('liberty, equality and fraternity' for Republican France, 'freedom' for the United States), British patriotism comes from below. Accordingly it is usually defined in hilariously prosaic terms: queueing, warm beer, roast beef, rain. These are all things disliked by intellectuals.... Our long tradition of national self-hatred has in some ways stress-tested the national consciousness. Self-hatred doesn’t portend a 'chasm.' It is something we are long-sufferingly accustomed to. Things are more dangerous in brittler, prouder America."
From "It’s deeply British to question our patriotism/A tradition of tolerating dissent is a sign of national strength rather than something to fret over" by James Marriott (London Times).
We're brittler than Brits, he says. And prouder. He sounds proud, you might say, but not proud of his country, and that's his point about pride.
I do think our intellectuals look down on patriotism too, though less amusingly. There's a lot of expression of patriotism in America because most of us don't take our cues from intellectuals. I'm sure at least half of my readers are, right now, rankling at my acceptance of Marriott's word "intellectuals" to refer to America's present-day elite.
The top-rated comment at the London Times quotes James Boswell’s "Life of Johnson" (entry dated April 7, 1775):
Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apothegm, at which many will start: “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” But let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak for self-interest.
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Assistant Village Idiot writes:
"I do hope that people from an English perspective with a knowledge of actual history correct him, as I doubt he would listen to me. But he is confusing the attitude of British intellectuals between the wars with an English attitude since time immemorial. Brits were quite patriotic before WWI. There was an intellectual elite that loved socialism and wanted it to be the international solution, but these were not as numerous as current historical memory makes them. Marriott is reciting a liturgy of his his class without any reflection. He sings it well. He must have been well-trained.
"I recommend CS Lewis's stunning "The Dangers of National Repentance" from 1940
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5afKysX4e-A "
Lloyd writes:
"Marriott says English nationalism was real for a millennium before the 19th century. So: even before the Norman Conquest? I'm not an expert, but this rings true. There were fights about whether to take orders from the Pope hundreds of years before Henry VIII--who was a lunatic. It just made sense to a lot of people for England to be a nation with a national church. I know even less about France and Italy: nationalism there was more of an intellectual project than a natural growth? I've been studying Jonathan Swift, and you do get the idea that by living in Ireland he somehow became less English, was looking for a cause to serve, and kind of discovered the Irish--another nation.
"In some ways American intellectual life was unimpressive until the 1930s, when German thought started to become important. German philosophy, like German music, was big and bombastic, and to many made old-fashioned virtue and patriotism look foolish."
Lucien writes:
"Not to be prickly, but “specifically English” and “deeply British” seem to be two different things. Are Welsh, Scottish, Irish & Northern Irish feelings of and attitudes toward patriotism the same as the English, or are they more unabashedly proud?
"And why shouldn’t Europeans (English included, despite Brexit) be ambivalent about American patriotism? America is at once the apotheosis of enlightenment thinking and a repudiation of Europe. We took the wretched refuse of her teeming shores and built a society without social class (nobody cares what your grandfather did for a living) aspiring to and sometimes attaining her highest ideals. Then we saved her (twice) and rebuilt her, and now she lives safely under the aegis we provide by spending more on our military than the next two dozen countries combined."
Dave Begley writes:
"I think a big part of being an American intellectual is disliking things that common Americans like. Think NASCAR, country music and the flag. They think they are smarter and better than us.
"Back when I considered myself a liberal intellectual I loved the NYT and NPR. Today I listened to NPR for one minute and had to switch the station. It sounded like a parody. Unbearable.
"Liberal intellectuals want to create some type of Utopia and that’s a big driver for the CAGW scam. I saw Malcom Gladwell on TV recently and he was all excited about self-driving EVs because they will save the planet and not hit people walking in the street.That’s at $60k a pop."
Tom T. writes:
"I think it's incorrect to describe America at more brittle than the UK. I suspect it feels more dangerous to a Brit precisely because it's less brittle. We indulge ourselves in a more raucous, flexible, and unconstrained political culture, across a much broader range of political opinion. I think this is because ever since we put the disaster of the Civil War behind us, we've been ultimately secure in our underlying nationhood. England and Scotland have been in a union much longer than, say, Massachusetts and Texas, but today the Scottish are seriously trying to pry their way out, while a few Texans who talk about secession are treated as a joke."
portly pirate writes:
"My favorite writing on the subject is sci-fi writer Robert A. Heinlein's 1973 address to the US Naval Academy, which was his alma mater. Heinlein was medically discharged (with TB) from the Navy just prior to the start of WWII. He mentions both "intellectuals" and Johnson's famous quote in his speech, which I link here: The Pragmatics of Patriotism – Robert Heinlein – Phrost"
Brian writes:
I can't believe that nobody has used the "S" word, yet. The "S" word perfectly describes both the English hatred of patriotism and; and,
Dave Begley wrote:
"a big part of being an American intellectual is disliking things that common Americans like. Think NASCAR, country music and the flag. They think they are smarter and better than us."
The "S" word is SNOBBERY
Those white college sophomores* that are out protesting? The ones that have no pride in the America that has given them EVERYTHING they have?
They are SNOBS. They Want to look down on the common folk with their country music, and their country flags. They WANT to be (or, at least Seem to be) above all that.
What grievances do white college sophomores have? None
So, they hop on someone else's grievance train so that they can take the ride
They just don't see Where it's going to end up
sophomores* Yes, *i* am using That word, because i Too am a snob; it's a universal problem
Jonathan writes:
This is the passage that caught my eye.
"Unlike nations ushered into being by Enlightenment intellectuals which enshrined philosophical abstractions as national principles ('liberty, equality and fraternity' for Republican France, 'freedom' for the United States), British patriotism comes from below."
Purely philosophical abstractions like "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. . ."? Is that what he means? Those ideas of "Enlightenment intellectuals" in fact aroused and focused the patriotism "from below" he says he values. I don't think he does value it actually. I don't rankle at Ann's referring to our elite as intellectuals. They are intellectuals. That's not the difference between the elite now and the patriotic elite of 1776. The difference is that elite "intellectuals" today here, and in Britain apparently, openly praise national "self-hatred" as healthy. As this guy does. It might be that British patriotism in the 1930s consisted of nothing more than "queueing, warm beer, roast beef, rain." However, when push came to shove, the intellectual Churchill tapped into its real roots with the unembarrassed pure love of country of his "We shall never surrender." The warm beer crowd was with him all the way, was it not?
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