'drum-out' ceremonies announcing their names to the entire 1,700-member corps of cadets."
३० जानेवारी, २०२१
"In an email to thousands of students, faculty, graduates and parents earlier this month, Virginia Military Institute’s interim superintendent defended its one-strike-and-you’re out honor code... But in private conversations....
"... with faculty and alumni, retired Maj. Gen. Cedric T. Wins is raising questions about VMI’s student-run Honor Court, which The Washington Post revealed in December expels Black students at a disproportionately high rate. Wins, who was appointed VMI’s first Black leader amid a state-ordered investigation into racism at the country’s oldest state-supported military college, discussed the Honor Court during a recent virtual listening session with more than a dozen faculty members. He asked whether the honor code — backed by a single-sanction system that expels and publicly shames cadets convicted of violations — had 'value or lack of value' and whether they had 'concerns' about the way the Honor Court operates.... Elected by the student body, VMI’s Honor Court operates in secrecy, investigating and prosecuting anyone suspected of an honor code violation. It has the power to enlist cadets to spy on classmates, who can be convicted by non-unanimous juries and then shamed with middle-of-the-night
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Yet more soft bigotry of low expectations.
Sounds like what happens to college men accused of rape. This system, like that one, belongs on the trash heap of history.
According to the article, during the period from the 2015-2016 academic year students of color were 21% of the student population and 54% of convictions. That, by itself, tells me nothing meaningful about the situation and whether or not racism is the cause for that disparity. You would have to examine and audit every case to see if the process was being fairly administered. I would also like to know if the code discipline is being applied uniformly and whether any students are being given preferential treatment. It is lazy and unfair to accuse the school of racism based solely on the reported numbers. The superintendent is doing the right thing defending the institution while investigating the process.
Race aside, it seems a bit much to be "prosecuting anyone suspected."
Sounds like the VMI statistics bear out national numbers.
Around 13 per cent of Americans are black, according to the latest estimates from the US Census Bureau.
And according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides
An honor code is just what it says it is. Cadets are expected to be honorable members of the community. They sign a pledge of behavior when they enter, and they are expected to meet their obligations to that pledge. Anyone of any race or gender who demonstrably violates the pledge is expelled. The behavior expected is clearly defined, and the hearing is conducted by a jury of the person's peers. There are no do-overs, and no exceptions based on gender or race. Honor codes at military academies have been enforced for generations. If someone can't handle it, there are lots of other ways to get an education. Attendance is voluntary. When someone signs on, he or she is supposed to step up. The institution doesn't lower its standards if a student can't meet them.
Is there evidence of unequal treatment? Or is this purely an unequal outcomes argument? Are there patterns in the types of offences a white vs. a black cadet commonly engages in? And, if so, did the sanctions change as black cadets started to arrive such that black offences weren’t punished more harshly until after blacks started committing them?
rwnutjob said...Sounds like the VMI statistics bear out national numbers.
Maybe so, but this isn’t a random grouping. Cadets can be expected to be much more conscientious of duty than the general population.
In these times, the traits formerly associated with the word 'honor' have been found unnecessary and the word has been rendered meaningless. When and if the times change to something resembling their former state its meaning will return, along with its associated traits. We'll know those traits when we see them, because they represent the best parts of what it is to be human. We used to know all this, but too many people forgot and the concept got lost in the kerfuffle.
I'd like to think I'll live long enough to see it, but I'm not optimistic.
Harold?
Sir?
You don't need a patch on your arm to have honour.
- Few Good Men (1992)
High school and college were both honor code based for me. It worked fine.
On the other hand, everybody there was qualified for the material, in those days.
. We used to know all this, but too many people forgot and the concept got lost in the kerfuffle.
Nobody forgot. Those without honor destroyed the inherent value of honor by changing the definition, assigning themselves as the most virtuous among us.
They go by terms such as public servants, educators, and experts.
Chapter 2,827,189 (approximately) in the continuing saga of "Black people cause problems, white people to blame."
"According to the article, during the period from the 2015-2016 academic year students of color were 21% of the student population and 54% of convictions. That, by itself, tells me nothing meaningful about the situation and whether or not racism is the cause for that disparity."
But when you shift gears from "equality" to "equity" then then the meaning of "meaningful" changes, and mere disproportionality becomes sufficient.
The means to ensure PropRep Equity range from thumb-on-scale preferences to universal debasement of standards.
Preferences produce (often covert) distrust of professionals and others who might have benefited from preferences.
But universal debasement of standards trashes everything, and thus is more destructive. But since it better preserves equity (by addressing the covert distrust side effect of preferences) it is now ascendant.
Not that preferences can't be combined with a universal debasement, of course.
You do the crime, you do the time. If there are rules, it doesn't and shouldn't matter what color you are. That is NOT discrimination....Discrimination is giving them special treatment for the color of their skin.
He asked whether the honor code — backed by a single-sanction system that expels and publicly shames cadets convicted of violations — had 'value or lack of value' and whether they had 'concerns' about the way the Honor Court operates.... Elected by the student body, VMI’s Honor Court operates in secrecy, investigating and prosecuting anyone suspected of an honor code violation. It has the power to enlist cadets to spy on classmates, who can be convicted by non-unanimous juries and then shamed with middle-of-the-night 'drum-out' ceremonies announcing their names to the entire 1,700-member corps of cadets."
Always out of step. That's what the rest of the country is moving towards.
You know ... it does sound a little like somebody watched too many episodes of Branded with Chuck Connors.
Listed under cancel culture deplorables like.
C'mon Crack. You're white now, tell us how you really feel.
WaPo believes in equal outcomes and the stink of that ideology suffuses the article. My guess is, this coverage is battlespace prep to force VMI management to drop the honor code. Why, even the name of it is reminiscent of antebellum white values and rituals.
In today's society a single tweet, an offhand comment, a wrong phrase can get you banned, fired, ostracized. Accusation is conviction. At least the honor court requires the formality of a finding.
This has nothing to do with "honor." Even Neidermeyer would have been embarrassed to demand a "secret trial."
Title IX admins are thinking, "Secret courts, public shaming...so what's the problem?"
Prediction
VMI will lower standards and take steps to ensure that black students get a pass.
Cadets accused of an honor violation can have any representation they want at their trial...including any top civilian lawyer. The "secrecy" is there to protect the cadet. If found innocent, they go on about their lives without cadets who were not involved accusing them of beating the rap. Cadets found guilty are removed from the post before the drum pout ceremony begins.
Amazing how a slanted writeup can change the story from truth to an intended end.
Everyone knows that 'diversity' nowadays is more important than honor or even honesty. But it's an insult to black men who have graduated honorably to lower standards for those who can't.
A black woman with whom I attended high school wrote in the local newspaper at the onset of Affirmative Action that she, who had been an excellent student, would always be assumed to have gotten her position by A.A. and this made her very angry. As if all her hard work had been for naught.
Elected by the student body, VMI’s Honor Court operates in secrecy, investigating and prosecuting anyone suspected of an honor code violation. It has the power to enlist cadets to spy on classmates, who can be convicted by non-unanimous juries and then shamed with middle-of-the-night 'drum-out' ceremonies announcing their names to the entire 1,700-member corps of cadets."
If this is true it is a terrible system.
I don't believe the WaPo though.
The perils of people who think in uni-variable analysis.
Why should VMI be any more honest than West Point ?
I firmly believe West Point is a national treasure and that it can and should remain a vitally important source of well trained, disciplined, highly educated Army officers and civilian leaders. However, during my time on the West Point faculty (2006-2009 and again from 2013-2017), I personally witnessed a series of fundamental changes at West Point that have eroded it to the point where I question whether the institution should even remain open. The recent coverage of 2LT Spenser Rapone – an avowed Communist and sworn enemy of the United States – dramatically highlighted this disturbing trend. Given my recent tenure on the West Point faculty and my direct interactions with Rapone, his “mentors,” and with the Academy’s leadership, I believe I can shed light on how someone like Rapone could possibly graduate.
First and foremost, standards at West Point are nonexistent.
Many of the Honor Code violations were by female cadets.
No wonder VMI butter bars were the most common fragging targets in Viet Nam.
Ridiculous. Let em lie I say. Also, entrance standards should be adjusted to make it easier to get in, especially for the transgendered and pyrofairies. How many classes do they have dealing with the intersectionality of ethnicity and land navigation? Ah I thought so. And Don't get me started on the uniforms, swords at formal occasions? To much phallic symbolism. Turn those swords into dildos, take the toxicity out of formers symbolism.
Achilles - read my post above. I am a VMI grad. The secrecy is there precisely to avoid the opposite, the show trial. The accused is entitled to representation of his or her choice. The truth of the "spy" smear is no more nor less then the prosecutors of the honor court doing an investigation by asking cadets if they have observed dishonorable behaviors, and the accused is entitled - just as in any court - to be confronted by the witnesses against them.
The WaPo write up is another piece of journalistic excrement reflecting the degenerate culture that desires to topple another pillar of American history and remake us into...what?
Punishment for an honor violation was delayed for a star basketball player when I was in college. It was only a one quarter suspension for plagiarism.
On Jeopardy! last night, none of the contestants got the easy clue for "code of honor." Our society has gone to the dogs.
Student-run honor councils will always have difficulties, but the alternative is worse.
How can you have an honor court when honor, as a value to be cherished, no longer exists?
@oldcorps76
Eunuchs. Literally, metaphorically, and psychologically. Men and women. They want to remake us into eunuchs. I am deadly serious.
If rules against cheating are white supremacy isn't it time we admitted white supremacy is a good thing?
More seriously it's relatively easy (although time consuming) to determine if the difference in rates is due to racism or underlying behavioral differences. Each case including exonerations should be blindly evaluated by an independent and politically disinterested professional third party to identify any cases where either the conviction or exoneration reasons are implausible. Then evaluate those cases by race.
I can't reach the WAPO article but I'm presuming this wasn't even done because this information is so much more compelling if it were available the rate difference wouldn't even be mentioned, and also because if available that would be the focus of Althouse's comment. This is so obviously necessary it suggests review was not undertaken specifically because the leadership knew it would not deliver the desired results. In turn this shows the entire project is not intended to redress racism but to justify changing the standards because any standard which blacks fail is deemed unacceptable, an extremely racist principle.
Yeah, I think our number one priority as a Country should be to make life easier for black folks. If they can't live by the rules - change the rules.
After all, if they can't live the rules, then there's something wrong with the rules. Probably the rule is racist. And even if it was not secretly made to hurt blacks, its probably a "white rule" that was made for "white men". Fairness, and decency require we don't force Black people to live by "White rules".
we also do this for woman. If women can't meet the standards, the standards are wrong and "sexist", and we need new standards that are fair to everyone. I.e. help women.
You can be sure that if a black man commits a crime, white people forced him to do it.
Another indicator of a troubling trend to re-set long held standards of behavior to accommodate those unwilling or unable to comply.
I'm also bemused by the job to which Ken Griffey Jr. was recently appointed. His task (and I'm paraphrasing) is to help increase diversity in baseball. I've watched MLB for a long time. 40 years ago, I don't think it was particularly diverse, but today it seems to be quite diverse. Except that, in this case, it doesn't include enough (American) Black players to satisfy...someone.
I expect to see a system of incentives (for the target group) and disincentives (for owners) to come out of this project. So much for free markets.
Reminds me that it's time to re-read "The Lords of Discipline"
Regarding my above comment, it would be appropriate to point out that the NBA seems to be made up, disproportionately, of (American) Black players. Come to think of it, it might be fun to watch a battle shape up between the two leagues for recruits.
It's easy to see Howard knows nothing about honor and less about leadership.
I've known a few VMI grads of varying ethnicities. In my opinion they seemed better prepared to lead than the graduates of other military academies. To be fair I also know many who couldn't hack if either for academic or disciplinary reasons. Military academies are tough for a reason.
Note the WaPo double standard:
who can be convicted by non-unanimous juries
What is their position on University expulsions based on preponderance of evidence (51%) in secret trials?
Or split jury decisions in civil trials?
Or do they even understand that ALL military courts convict based on jury majorities?
How about impeachments? should the vote be 100-0?
I taught math for a while at USMA (as a non-grad). I can't speak to the honor code application at VMI (though my roommate in Germany was an outstanding product), but the outrage of Spenser Rapone getting commissioned convinced me that USMA's Honor code has failed.
This stuff won’t end, because it isn’t about race (or in other grievance hustles, sex or sexual preference or transgender status or autism or obesity). It’s about power. And the closer the hustlers get to objective parity or what we might all accept as equality, the more strenuously they will press for more and more. Because it must not end. They would be out of work and out of power; and we can’t have that.
I expect WaPO to argue against rolling back the DeVos limitations on University Title IX trials.
After all the disparate statistics prove the point.
One gender is convicted at an overwhelming rate
case closed. Want more?
Secret trials. denial of legal counsel. presumption of guilt. Ignoring evidence. One sided investigations. Finders of fact are also prosecutors and judges.
resulting in expulsions? sounds worse to me.
Believe the WAPO.
Of course, getting cancelled without explanation or recourse is normal now.
This subject of this post reminded me of the 1983 film, The Lords of Discipline.
Only fascists and communists deploy secret trials.
Congress should have abolished VMI after the Civil War.
Only 10 VMI cadets fought for the United States.
The rest were Confederates.
Where is the Honor in fighting for slavery?
Diversity or diversity politics?
Picture yourself in the midst of heated battle, your life dependent upon the actions of others around you. Does honor and integrity matter? Speaking from experience, you bet it does. Perhaps then, military academies should emphasize those traits?
What is their position on University expulsions based on preponderance of evidence (51%) in secret trials?
The rape culture movement was, as it turned out, about two things: social liberals diverging as they do on principle, and standing up for planned parenthood, including: reproductive rites (e.g. selective-child) and cannibalized child. Gender (e.g. behavioral - sexual orientation) ideology, sex politics, and progress.
Does honor and integrity matter? Speaking from experience, you bet it does.
Color matters. Character is negotiable. h/t Some, Select Black Lives Matter
#BabyLivesMatter(BLM)
There is a very old by now study done by a newspaper or television station, I forget which, in NJ. Complaints were that NJ State Troopers were stopping black drivers at a much greater rate than white drivers, and that was of course, evidence of RACISM! Because, of course it is. So, the reporters acquired a radar gun, and with a photographer and the gun, sat on an overpass and took photos of cars whizzing by at well above the speed limit on the NJ Turnpike. And set out to identify the drivers by race. And subsequently didn't make it a from page story because what they discovered was that while more blacks than other races were being pulled over based on the percentage of black drivers versus others, they weren't being pulled over at nearly the rate they should have been based on the number of black speeders versus others, and the higher the speed, the worse the disparity.
Should have added, random urinalysis everywhere by any organization catches more POCs than others based on population numbers. More evidence of racism?
If black Americans were to all suddenly disappear of their own volition, would America still be racist?
"...discussed the Honor Court during a recent virtual listening session with more than a dozen faculty members."
Was it a segregated session? It's all the rage these days.
Maybe they should have an affirmative action/quota system instead...Asians expelled after one offense, whites after two, and blacks after three.
Separate but equal, that's the ticket.
"Cadets accused of an honor violation can have any representation they want at their trial...including any top civilian lawyer."
If I was a black student I would request Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.
VMI would end up paying out millions in shakedown money.
That would show those fuckers.
"Congress should have abolished VMI after the Civil War."
You can thank the Congress for not doing that, as it afforded the nation General George C. Marshall, the Architect of Victory in WWII. Marshall said "the VMI gave me a standard for my daily conduct among men." Not to mention two generations of Pattons, 57 officersof general or flag rank in WWII alone, Medal of Honor winners, Supreme Court justices, captains of industry, Rhodes scholars, all out of proportion to it's relatively tiny size as an institution....there's what honor does for you. And it was 17 cadets who fought for the Union. 1098 fought for the Confederacy. Proudly. And just as proudly took up the Stars and Stripes after accepting an honorable defeat.
But as a WaPo sycophant, I suppose you all o'that as a perpetuation of racyiss Western civilization.
It's easy to see Howard
I was watching The Bob Newhart show, the original one where he's a psychologist. In the episode, Mr. Carlin, a patient who after a decade has shown virtually no improvement was a prominent component of the story line and I said to myself, My G-d! Howard is Mr. Carlin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsyCLmQGViQ
mccullough said...
Congress should have abolished VMI after the Civil War.
Only 10 VMI cadets fought for the United States.
The rest were Confederates.
Where is the Honor in fighting for slavery?
VMI- Virginia Military Institute. The state military college of Virginia. Congress has no jurisdiction. Same with The Citadel, the military college of South Carolina. Don't recall a lot of Citadel graduates fighting for the North. When I visited some distant relatives in SC in the early 1970s, they referred to West Point as The Citadel of the North. (That's also when I discovered "damnyankee" was one word, not two.) It was Citadel Cadets who fired upon Fort Sumter igniting the shooting part of the war.
Quite a few USMA graduates also fought for the South, but we kept it. This is a pretty good summation of West Pointers and the Civil War.
Congress has the power to raise an army and navy.
The states do not.
Congress could abolish this college tomorrow if it wanted.
It should have abolished it in 1865.
Gospace said...
Quite a few USMA graduates also fought for the South, but we kept it. This is a pretty good summation of West Pointers and the Civil War.
Not only that; there were two USMA Superintendents who fought for the South. Robert E Lee, who was Superintendent from 1852 to 1855 and P.G.T. Beauregard who was Superintendent when the war broke out.
Ah yes, The Great Men.
The graveyard is filled with indispensable men.
Lee is a traitor.
No honor in the Lost Cause of enslaving others. None.
I like Generals who don’t betray their country.
McCullough - how erudite. Quoting DeGaulle does even less for what little credibility you possess.
What was the LSAT difference between Black and other students at Wisconsin? At my law school it was 15 points.
Under what title of the Constitution could Congress "abolish VMI tomorrow?"
mccullough said...
Congress has the power to raise an army and navy.
The states do not.
Congress could abolish this college tomorrow if it wanted.
It should have abolished it in 1865.
All states have their own National Guard- subject to federal service. Some states have a state militia- not subject to federal service. NY is one of them. Fewer states have a naval militia. NY is one of them. AFAIK, no state has an air force other than the Air National Guard. The Texas and Alaska ANG in state service perform frequent interceptions of foreign flights.
Nice try. States very obviously can raise armies.
Did I miss the part where attending VMI was mandatory?
mccullough said...
"Lee is a traitor.
No honor in the Lost Cause of enslaving others. None.
I like Generals who don’t betray their country."
Virginia *was* Lee's country. In 1860 very few Americans, north or south, pledged allegiance to the USA over their respective states.
But I agree—no honor in enslaving others. Ever. Anywhere.
The War Between the States was about more than slavery and most who died for the Confederate cause didn't own any slaves, nor did they benefit from slavery. This is just another one of the 'Good side' and 'Bad side' argument that accompanies any war. It's easy to paint history with the broad brush of modern social narrative.
VMI’s Honor Court operates in secrecy, investigating and prosecuting anyone suspected of an honor code violation. It has the power to enlist cadets to spy on classmates, who can be convicted by non-unanimous juries and then shamed with middle-of-the-night 'drum-out' ceremonies announcing their names
Sounds like Twitter.
Given that this is WaPo reporting, however, I an dubious as to the claims.
Some Generals who betrayed their country:
William Alexander
John Armstrong Sr.
Benedict Arnold
Jacob Bayley
Daniel Brodhead IV
George Clinton
James Clinton
Thomas Conway
Elias Dayton
Joseph Frye
Christopher Gadsden
Horatio Gates
Mordecai Gist
John Glover
Nathanael Greene
John Gunby
Edward Hand
Charles Harrison
Moses Hazen
William Heath
James Hogun
Thomas Holden
Robert Howe
Isaac Huger
Jedediah Huntington
William Irvine
Henry Knox
Ebenezer Learned
Charles Lee
Andrew Lewis
Benjamin Lincoln
William Maxwell
Alexander McDougall
Lachlan McIntosh
Hugh Mercer
Thomas Mifflin
Richard Montgomery
James Moore
Daniel Morgan (through my mother's father, Armour Morgan, I am a cousin)
William Moultrie
Peter Muhlenberg
Francis Nash
Joseph Neville
John Nixon
Samuel Holden Parsons
John Paterson
Enoch Poor
Israel Putnam
Rufus Putnam
James Reed
William Russell
Philip Schuyler
Charles Scott
William Smallwood
Joseph Spencer
Arthur St. Clair
John Stark
Walter Stewart
John Sullivan
Jethro Sumner
John Thomas
William Thompson
Benjamin Tupper
James Mitchell Varnum
Artemas Ward
George Washington
Anthony Wayne
George Weedon
Otho Holland Williams
William Woodford
David Wooster
mccullough said...
Congress has the power to raise an army and navy.
The states do not.
Congress could abolish this college tomorrow if it wanted.
It should have abolished it in 1865.
As was explained to you, states do have the power to raise militias, otherwise known as the National Guard's of the states. Officers in the Guard (wife used to be one) are commissioned first by their states, then that commission is "recognized by the Feds"
The Feds could stop Federal funding. but can't abolish it. They can refuse to grant Federal commissions, but not prevent the states from commissioning.
Exactly, Meade! George Washington was a rebel. And the more I learn about the suffering our Revolutionaries and their families endured for our freedom the less likely I am to give it up without a fight.
[I am related to Benedict Arnold but not a descendant. Our common ancestor was Benedict Arnold I, the first Governor of the Rhode Island Colony, his g-grandfather, IIRC.]
Some Generals who did *not* betray their country:
Benedict Arnold
Montfort Browne
Charles Cornwallis
Oliver De Lancey
Sir John Johnson
Cortlandt Skinner
Benedict Arnold did not betray his legal country but he betrayed his cause, or at least the cause he claimed to have espoused.
Like my father before me, I will work the land
And like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand
He was just eighteen, proud and brave
But a Yankee laid him in his grave
I swear by the mud below my feet
You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in defeat
That was written by a Canadian by the way.
Meade said...
That was written by a Canadian by the way.
And sung perfectly by a man from Arkansas.
(Joan Baez can go take a hike!)
What Meade said above, ”In 1860 very few Americans, north or south, pledged allegiance to the USA over their respective states.” is very true. The paper I linked to above actually addresses that. The day after Fort Sumter cadets were required to swear an oath to the United States rather than their respective states as before. Ten refused. Apparently before this a large group of cadets resigned and marched out of the academy together after gathering with fellow cadets for a final farewell. They were not hindered in any way as they headed south. The war would likely have been shorter were they all detained- but on what charges could they be held? Wrongthink? Unlike today in the USA you couldn’t then be charged with that.
Some of my ancestral relatives fired upon some of my direct ancestors at the Battle of Drewy’s Bluff. That was then, this is now. IMHO, the leadership of both sides being so closely associated is what led to a lasting peace. The lasting peace between us and Britain is due to the 3000 mile gap that was difficult to overcome in the first 50 years of independence. There’s not a lasting peace between England and Ireland...
“No wonder VMI butter bars were the most common fragging targets in Viet Nam”
Over 1000 officers and sergeants were fragged in Vietnam. 13 vmi grads were killed in Vietnam as lieutenants in the Army or Marines. Of course many of these would be first lieutenants. How many were fragged? One? Two? All of them? If the above quote is true then the rest of the 1000 must be an incredibly diverse group. The above claim is highly improbable. Another comment without evidence.
I had occasion to talk with a few WWII grunts who failed to make it to SGT (E5) during the conflict. Fragging wasn’t called that during that era, but from stories I’ve heard was actually more common than in Vietnam. Lot more fog of war back then. In WWII average age of the enlisted soldier was 26. Average age of a 2LT or 1LT under 23. Many had been working before the war, many were supervisors of some sort. They were less likely to put up with BS and incompetence. Average age in Vietnam 19. Average age of lieutenants the same as WWII. Captains and majors in Vietnam would be older than their WWII counterparts.
I note they don't claim that the "black" cadets didn't violate the rules.
Just that they think it's wrong to punish them for doing so.
Here's the deal:
When you "take a chance" on people, often times they're going to disappoint you. What this looks like is that VMI is "taking a chance" on more black people than white people, but imposing the same rules and expectations on everyone.
So now the racists are demanding that the blacks not face the same rules and punishments as the whites. because that's what racists do
I am sure that most of these violations are about bringing drugs around the campus.. it is desirable to not let drugs be a factor at vmi. so don't let drugs in.
The next step will be to reduce the over population of Blacks in prison by making the crimes they were convicted of legal. It is already starting in woke Virginia.
It would seem that everyone forgets that during the War for Southern Independence the United States was a slave nation. Lincoln didn't free US slaves and neither did congress. Slavery in the US survived until December 1865, eight months after Lee surrendered and Lincoln was murdered.
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