"One critical way hockey differs from other contact team sports is how players do line changes — substitutions of groups of players — and are expected to sprint for nearly the whole time they are on the ice. Experts say it probably leads to heavier breathing, resulting in more particles being exhaled and inhaled.
Jose-Luis Jimenez, an air engineer at the University of Colorado, speculated that the spaces occupied by rinks keep the virus suspended, perhaps six to nine feet, just above the ice. Similar outbreaks have been documented in other chilly venues — meat processing factories and at a curling match earlier in the pandemic. 'I suspect the air is stratified,' he said. 'Much like in a cold winter night, you have these inversions where the cold air with the virus which is heavier stays closer to the ground. That gives players many more chances to breathe it in.'...... Surrounded by plexiglass not only to prevent errant pucks but also to keep the airflow stable so the ice can remain cold, there’s little ventilation and humidity by design in ice rinks.... In higher humidity, the virus attaches to bigger droplets that drop faster to the ground, decreasing the chance that someone will inhale them. The drier the air, the faster droplets will evaporate into smaller-size particles that stay in the air, increasing the concentration..."
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Similar outbreaks have been documented in other chilly venues
Operating rooms come to mind.
Makes sense that this is ideal conditions for transmission. Which could be useful information in identifying other safe/dangerous activities if government were really concerned about instituting only really necessary restrictions.
How soon last spring did the NHL shut down, and how did their infection rates compare to other pro sports (particularly the NBA, which has a similar schedule timeline)?
My understanding is that, at least in New England, the spread is largely through rhe parents in the stands, particularly during tournaments where they are together for longer periods of time.
I believe back around March some non-scientists were saying a bat disease would spread most quickly in places resembling caves.
White man's burden is the price of white privilege.
If air stratification is the problem, and I don't trust the WaPo hvac reporting any more than anything else they do, it's easy to fix.
A couple of Big Ass Fans from www.bigassfans.com will break up the stratification.
Sounds like more bs.
Are the players actually getting kung flu or are they just testing positive?
John Henry
Experts say. Experts say this, experts say that, do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that. Its like we're playing Simon Says only the only ones making the rules are the "Experts".
Black hockey player hardest hit.
"Surrounded by plexiglass not only to prevent errant pucks but also to keep the airflow stable so the ice can remain cold"
LOL. It's only there for the pucks.
Now whenever I read the word expert in some news or online article I laugh out loud. I only give any credence to expertise when the person using the word expert can actually point to the person, or names them, and I can go look at their CV, or a summary of such. And even then I’m hesitant to listen, or skeptical of what they say, unless they themselves can point to the scientific studies they performed in the area about which they’re talking. As I’ve said before “science” is not a scientist merely taking. Science is a method to give scientists something - results- to talk about.
A scientist sitting in their office making basic assumptions that aren’t proven, broadening or narrowing “acceptable” ranges in various bell curves of results; and computer modeling long sequential cause-and-effect presumptions, is not science. It’s speculation. Science is the ability to observe and state, the ability to observe and show causation not just correlation, and most importantly the ability for anyone else to replicate and verify the results.
Usually dealing with tiny locker rooms, gear that never dries out.
This all makes sense, except that...
The NHL restarted the season this year on August 1, after closing down in February. They played in two bubbles, in Canada. All teams from the Eastern Conference played in Toronto- same arena, with a staggered schedule, sometimes as many as three games played on the same ice. Western Conference teams played in Edmonton. Same set up- one arena, staggered schedule.
When it got to the finals, they all moved to Edmonton. So you had all of the teams to start, huddled in one of two arenas, all in the same city (under lockdown). Then for the finals they all moved to one site. From Aug 1 to the final game of the Stanley Cup Finals- no one tested positive.
How is that? How does that fit into this narrative?
CV-19 will soon be over. And the death rate among people who are under 50 and healthy is almost zero. THis is boring.
Is there a statistically large enough sample to draw any conclusions? Or is this WaPo stirring up trouble?
Both the Wisconsin men's and women's teams were hit hard this week. Don't think anybody died, however. /sarc
Cases mean nothing.
How many deaths?
How many hospitalizations?
Some people will read this article and analyze the information put forth based on the assumption it's true, even though they've read previous articles in WaPo they know not to be true.
There's a term for that.
"outbreaks"
Of, you know, disease, like, kids feeling bad and stuff?
How to capture “eyeballs” and clicks in today’s media world? How to get them to pay attention, a lot of times, and come back for more tomorrow?
1. Appeal to people’s desire to feel superior (“We obviously know what is going on. Not like those misguided or evil people over there.”)
2. Stoke their fear.
And when the media company’s CFO orders you to drive more revenue, turn up the volume.
Cases: past, probable, possible, or progressive (i.e. disease)?
God hates Canada, I guess ...
Or is it the long, hot showers together after the game?
In higher humidity, the virus attaches to bigger droplets that drop faster to the ground, decreasing the chance that someone will inhale them. The drier the air, the faster droplets will evaporate into smaller-size particles that stay in the air, increasing the concentration
The virus has spread in hot, humid areas.
The masks act as collectors/concentrators and petri dishes for viable viruses and bacteria. The droplets evaporate, then are either ingested or blown out to infect people in proximity. This is what controlled studies over the past 40 years have demonstrated and this is the pattern that has been observed. At best, the masks in general use decrease infection by 4% and increase infection by 2%.
From the cruise ship, long-term care, military centers, and hospitals, the observed pattern has followed a fecal, not aerosol or droplet spread.
Don't forget your goggles. The eyes are a window to contagion. And wash your hands with soap and water. The virus is not only fat soluble, but is decontructed in that solution.
That said, Japan has not had lockdowns or restrictive mandates, but has recorded less than 3,000 deaths attributed to SARS-CoV-2. In America, aside from the spikes in deaths (perhaps Planned Parent) during the first three months of 2020, there have not been excess deaths through the year. In fact, cases reached a peak around April, then spiked during the summer in close connection to restrictive mandates.
WaPo reports that Jose speculates. How much are you paying for this dreck?
Notice the emphasis isn’t that even playing team sports with sweaty contact like basketball won’t give you covid. Even football players, as they pile on each other, aren’t getting it. Rugby and soccer players? Nope. And after climbing on each other for hours these teams all take showers together and STILL no outbreak. So why are the rest of us staying six feet from each other with masks on to walk down the street? Whatever the explanation for it, we’re all safe as long as we don’t play hockey.
Ice fishing must be the safest sport, I never caught anything ice fishing.
Stratified air, my ass. Wouldn't it be simpler to assume that the virus is more vigorous in the cold? Look at the graphs. Dip in summer, spike in winter.
Couldn't read the article but are they talking about actual cases of COVID-19 or just positive test results?
"...speculated..."
"I suspect..."
Coronavirus science so far.
Dip in summer, spike in winter.
Nope. Southern AZ had its spike last summer and, as it's too hot here to be outside, everyone is confined to their air-conditioned offices and homes. Just as in winter, in the rest of the country, it's just the opposite. It's the confinement to indoors that's the problem. And it may have a lot to do with ventilation systems which may be harboring and dispersing the virus. Germany is revamping all of the ventilation systems in its public buildings.
For those with no WaPo access the article is here in the Anchorage Daily News.
It does appear to be a problem. A 29-year-old Texas coach died three days after getting a "cold". Apparently, he also took a sleeping pill, and the medical examiner thinks that along with COVID did him in.
https://www.thewhig.com/news/world/hockey-dad-and-coach-dies-from-covid-19-mere-days-after-feeling-ill/wcm/62166fa2-0a0d-438a-8fbb-33b081705d84
More Covid stories.
It will be gone soon. It’s burning through the population.
I love hockey.
This is so transparent it’s laughable.
There is only one wintertime sport that youth can play from January to March, and that’s hockey. So the media can state its dangerous, and that’ll be enough to keep athletic kids locked down until springtime at the earliest.
Callahan,
Basketball, wrestling, and swimming are also youth winter sports in schools.
Bob: Thank you for the link.
As a former air engineer expert myself I believe the problem exists because of the ubiquitous Zamboni. While most Zambonis are manufactured in North America, 70% of the parts are sourced from factories in Wuhan, China. All Zambonis share a common component, the micro encabulator, which is only made in China. Last January there was a world wide recall of all encabulators. The factories said encabulator hatch depths greater than 1/2 meter from the damper crown posed serious fire risks. New encabulators were installed on all Zambonis. The new encabulators require weekly lubrication with a proprietary blend of common petroleum distillate and a synthetic growth medium which is particularly attractive to the COVID virus. Reducing the encabulator hatch depth to 1/4 meter produces a stronger dispersion of contaminated air into the atmosphere. Further study is necessary.
Hockey should only be played on frozen ponds in Quebec, Alberta and Ontario. All else is an abomination unto the Lord.
What bullshit journ-o-listic malpractice! The entire article is a scaremongering miasma of “1.2 million children testing positive” and “400 exposed” and “12,000” “cases” (meaning what exactly?) in which symptoms among children at risk of this evil hockey outbreak are never mentioned let alone discussed with clarity. And all this strum and drang results in what, WaPo? How many dead and diseased?
One. One 29-year-old coach who caught COVID God knows where and didn’t seek treatment after three days of escalating severe symptoms! One dead! What about those million positive tests on kids? No illness? No symptoms? What WaPo is the fucking point if this article other than to shit in another good physical activity that is not harming children. WTF!
“sturm” is nearly impossible to write with Apple always “helping” me. Argh!
@david53 - classic. Thanks.
-XC
WaPo? How many dead and diseased?
It a hard, but profitable problem. Bezos/WaPo have been enriched by the spread of social contagion. Following incursion by the Democrat-affiliated neo-KKK Some, Select Black Lives Matter, his wife donated several billion dollars to the diversity racket. He donated sever billion to stave of the Green blight, a wholly fascist enterprise.
Do we really need to repeat the thing about correlation and causation??
Jose-Luis Jimenez, an air engineer
"Air engineer"? /snort, poor Whappo.
He's actually a chemist, among other things, and he's the "5th Most Cited Scientist Worldwide in the Geosciences over the last 10 years"
WaPo? How many dead and diseased?
There was a spike in deaths in the first three months, likely attributable to Planned Parent in Democrat districts. There was a case spike following imposition of mask mandates, which remarkably tracks the results of multiple controlled studies over the past 40 years. Well, that, and the false positives produced by the high cycle PCR testing regimes, diagnosis by symptoms, by proximity, etc. That said, the Covid-19 deaths are correlated with certain comorobidities correlated with age. Finally, if you wear a mask, which should remain untouched, disposed properly, and changed frequently, you really should wear goggles. The eyes are a window to contagion.
Blogger Curious George said...
"'Surrounded by plexiglass not only to prevent errant pucks but also to keep the airflow stable so the ice can remain cold'
LOL. It's only there for the pucks."
No, it does keep the airflow stable. The rink I used to frequent before all this foolishness had excellent ventilation, if for no other reason than the locker rooms were full of smelly hockey gear. The areas directly outside the plexiglass were cool, but comfortable. But when you stepped onto the ice, you could feel a definite drop in the temperature. And in the early spring it was not unusual to see a layer of fog hanging over the ice on some mornings.
David53 has all the markings of someone who has written a lot of government grant applications.
Either that or “need more headcount” business cases for CFO consumption.
Two things. to Lucien: Anywhere the ponds freeze is good for hockey, not just Canada. But no city where you can't play hockey outside should be allowed to have an NHL team.
A couple of commentators have tapped into one of my main complaints about Wuhan file coverage. We're always hearing about this or that athlete testing positive for the Wuhan, but are never told whether they were ever actually sick. I suspect it's mostly just positive tests with no symptoms and the details are suppressed because the powers that be are afraid the knowledge would erode their power. Much like the Johns Hopkins study on deaths was suppressed because some people were using the actual facts it contained to dispute the narrative.
BTW, in Wisconsin the number of patients in the hospital with the Wuhan has been slowly going down for the last week. Let's hope that means it's peaked. But, as usual, since that is probably the most important number to know, it's almost never reported by the media and if you go to the DHS coronavirus summary data, and look under hospitals, it's the last thing on the page instead of the first. And it's still not a killer unless your over 60 (77% of Wisconsin deaths are people over 70 and 90% are people over 60).
Hockey should only be played on frozen ponds in Quebec, Alberta and Ontario. All else is an abomination unto the Lord.
When my father was a boy he played hockey on frozen lakes in Colorado. Having hockey in Phoenix and Las Vegas is unnatural. But the fans like it. Including me.
I’m surprised Modern Family wasn’t shamed off the small screen what with a big fat straight man playing a married gay guy.
And now you’re telling me Amanda Seyfried and Meryl Streep aren’t actually mother and daughter? I saw Mama Mia and they were so they must be in real life too. Amirite?
Oops. Posted in wrong thread. It was a comment about gayface. ^^^^**
The plexiglass on a rink will keep the air stratified, no question. However- it was installed as said for the sole purpose of stopping most errant pucks. The plexiglass is up for the same reason there are nets behind home plate in baseball stadiums and a net is raised before a field goal attempt in football. Lawyers sued after fan injuries. The venues hadn't taken "reasonable precautions" to prevent foreseeable injuries.
Simple solution is to improve ventilation. Install ceiling fans to churn the air up. Bring in fresh air and blow out the indoor air. Worth a try.
I went to a pandemic and a hockey game broke out
Hey, I is B: How are you doing? Been praying for you!
"Experts say it probably leads to heavier breathing, resulting in more particles being exhaled and inhaled."
Hope somebody didn't pay a lot for this 'expert' advice.
Kind of a no-duh...
The alleged and unsubstantiated higher incurrence of coronavirus among youth ice hockey players wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that it is a sport played mostly by white guys, would it?
@Ignorance is Bliss, I echo mockturtle. What’s the latest?
Ummm, breath is warm. Hot air rises. Indoor ice is kept cold. Hot air rises. What is the volume of the venue? Modern HVAC is computerized and easily adjustable via PLC. I would also ask 'how many cycles' of the test. Major false positives reported everywhere.
BUMBLE BEE said...
Ummm, breath is warm. Hot air rises. Indoor ice is kept cold. Hot air rises
i see what you're saying, and i'm Not saying you're wrong but: Try this...
breath is warm. Hot air rises, BUT before the breath gets far... because Indoor ice is kept cold. the Hot breath QUICKLY cools off, and gets stuck in the stratified rink air
You see this (sometimes) with smoke stacks in the winter. The plume rises a bit, then goes horizontal (because the smoke cooled to atmospheric temp. This does NOT always happen, and couldn't say why it does or doesn't happen
The idea of big fans blowing across the ice should take care of the problem (AND dramatically raise the price of having ice)
The article seems to raise more questions than answers. It also demonstrates how truly little we know about viruses, and the physical world we surprisingly exist in. Yet we take a lot of assumptions as a fact, because an expert (sic) may have said something.
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