December 21, 2020

"The standard does not appear necessary to ensure that the product meets consumer expectations, and the F.D.A. has tentatively concluded that it is no longer necessary to promote honesty and fair dealing in the interest of consumers and may limit flexibility for innovation."

Announced the FDA, quoted in "F.D.A. Wants to Stop Regulating French Dressing/The federal agency said it was seeking to revoke its definition for the carrot-colored dressing, effectively erasing a government-required list of ingredients at the request of an industry group" (NYT). 

Marion Nestle — "a professor emerita of nutrition, food studies and public health at New York University" — called bullshit on the FDA : "They want to do it because they want less fat than what’s in the standard of identity, and they want to put more junk in it. And their argument is everybody knows what these things are, and everybody knows what they’re buying." 

Whatever. It's not as if the FDA ever protected us from the deception that is labeling this stuff "French."
The dressing was originally a simple vinaigrette made of oil and vinegar, but it gradually became the gooey, sweet, tomato-inflected dressing we recognize today, [said Paul Freedman, a professor of history at Yale, and the author of “American Cuisine: And How It Got This Way"]. Unlike the French, who tend to relegate sugar to dessert, the dressing reflects Americans’ love of all things sugary, from honey mustard to bacon slathered in maple syrup, he said.

130 comments:

MayBee said...

Ha hahahah. You are so right about the "French".

I have a terrible attitude toward Catalina Island off the coast of California because Catalina Dressing is so awful. These two dressings are in their own class of awful.

Whiskeybum said...

“Why everybody can’t just toss some oil and vinegar together and make their own salad dressing is beyond me,” [Nestle} said. “But never mind.”

Are we sure that this quote wasn't actually made by food expert Dr. Roseanne Roseannadanna?

Jeff Brokaw said...

Salad dressing regulations ... is this some kind of joke?

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I recalled some science experiment where they hooked babies up to suckometers and varied sugar content to document that infants would choose Count Chocula over breast milk had they the wherewithal.

My search on the internet to support that claim discovered a disturbing strain of pr*nography that is best left to the imagination.

SafeSearch is your friend.

Phil 314 said...

Well I’m glad we’ve moved on from the trivial COVID issues on to the really important stuff.

And I betcha no western cattle owners actually used that white dressing on their salads (or their pizzas or their chicken wings)!

iowan2 said...

If you don't think the Federal govt has unconstitutionally exceeded its enumerated powers, this story and millions of others should be changing your mind. I'll bet 100 employees had their fingers in this bit of "consumer protection"

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I don't understand why people buy pre-made salad dressing. Or mayonnaise. The stuff from the store is packed with bad stuff and they are simple to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwT6ULmtNlk

I use fresh lime juice instead of red wine vinegar, I think it tastes "brighter" that way. I usually do the mustard version, with some honey. Sometimes I put in blue cheese and use an immersion blender.

Immersion blenders are also great for making mayo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDWwulklcnI

I leave out the sugar and pepper.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Thank God we free adult Americans have people fretting over what we do or don’t put on our salads.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Sometimes I dice some sundried tomatoes and put them in the salad dressing.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I don't have any issues with the government mandating listing ingredients on food packages considering what the manufacturers do. A package of stevia with two ingredients, with stevia being the second listed and maltodextrin the first for example. Or olive oil mayo with soybean oil the first listed ingredient.

rhhardin said...

There's apparently no FDA standard for Russian dressing. Nobody knows what it is in Ohio. You have to make your own, if you want a decent sloppy joe. Nobody knows what a sloppy joe is, either. They think it's some barbecue-slathered chopped meat in a sandwich. In fact it's ham, swiss, cole slaw, russian dressing in a triple-decker sandwich.

rhhardin said...

Somebody pointed out long ago that there's FDA limit on nuclear waste in hamburger, so it might be a way to dispose of nuclear waste.

MayBee said...

I remember Dr Marion Nestle. Althouse has written about her before, I'm sure. She had a moment during the Obama years when the Obamas were trying to turn everyone into foodies and people like Ezra Klein were swooning because the Obamas understood terms like "Eaters" and there was some idea that we could get the busy, poor people to become localvores and the Obamas were so dreamy because of the garden and the White House honey and Sam their personal chef.

Paco Wové said...

This sounds like one of those malign telephone games the press likes to play, slowly distorting the original wording until it means something else. The original proposal says,

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA or we) proposes to revoke the standard of identity for French dressing. This action, in part, responds to a citizen petition submitted by the Association for Dressings and Sauces (ADS). We tentatively conclude that this standard no longer promotes honesty and fair dealing in the interest of consumers. Revocation of the standard of identity for French dressing could provide greater flexibility in the product's manufacture, consistent with comparable, nonstandardized foods available in the marketplace. (emphases mine)

Putting aside the issue of the FDA reducing the regulation of weird sugary glop so that it can become even-weirder sugary glop at the behest of an industry group, it's clear from the proposal that "this standard (i.e., specific to the monstrosity known as bottled 'French' dressing) is what "no longer promotes honesty, etc.", and not, as the headline implies, that the FDA has decided that it will not do so across the board.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

The left want money for your soda drinking habit.

we have a steep soda/sugar tax here in Proggy Proggy leftwing B-town.
If I want any drink with sugar in it, (even single bottles of organic lemonade) I make certain to drive 4 miles in the other direction to buy it.

The retailers in the valley locally hate the sugar tax. Gee I wonder why?

William said...

French dressing should be safe, legal, and rare.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Last night I used my immersion blender to make butternut squash soup. The recipe called for vegetable broth, but I used chicken. Just simmer some butternut squash, apple, and onion in a stock until everything is fork tender then use an immersion blender to break everything down. Add salt, pepper, and nutmeg to taste.

To finish it I put it in ramekins and topped it with toast and parmesan cheese and put it under the broiler. Finally, I served it with fresh chopped oregano and red pepper flakes.

mezzrow said...

When the rule is buried on page 367 of a 4000 page document, there is no rule.

Unless it's useful, that is. It creates a full employment program for those who love to sort out the details. How many felonies did you break yesterday?

Better to just sit home until you're told you can come out.

Kate said...

If we're reading the NYT to keep tabs on what the elites think, I'm curious to know the top-rated comment. What do our betters say about the intricacies of French dressing and govt's intrusion into our salad toppings?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Ron Winkleheimer said...I don't understand why people buy pre-made salad dressing. Or mayonnaise.

Truly on the salad dressing. And a whole lot of other foods. make your own!! Salad dressings are is easy to make. Costs a lot less per serving. The ingredients to make basic dressing can be used for many other dishes and recipes. PLUS you only need to make just the amount you want for the salad you are serving. NO LEFTOVER bottles to handle in the fridge.

Our favorite: on butter lettuce with orange segments and pine nuts if ya got'em. 1/2 cup virgin olive oil 2 tbss (or less) lemon infused white balsamic vinegar* some poppy seeds if you like those or fresh chopped italian parsley.

*white balsamic vinegar is expensive and strong. Start with a lesser amount and taste it. We buy ours from a store online from the Texas Hill Country. Hit up Althouse's Amazon link. The cherry infused white balsamic is to die for and great over french vanilla icecream)

Mayonnaise. It is fairly hard to make at home. Just buy the mayo for general purposes

Screw the Government trying to tell me what to eat and how to eat. They change their minds all the time. I have never listened.

Paco Wové said...

"Hey, I wanted to by this weird sugary fake crap, not that sugary weird fake crap!! My weird sugary fake crap now has this new ingredient in it!!"

Leland said...

"Wuhan Coronavirus" That's racist!
"French Dressing" We need to protect the whole concept with government regulation!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I must admit though. Food labels with the ingredients should be mandatory. I want to know what is in the product. Chemicals. Sugar. etc. Also WHERE the product was manufactured.

Matt said...

Screw the Government trying to tell me what to eat and how to eat. They change their minds all the time. I have never listened.
~~~~~~~~~~
I noticed that as a kid in the 80's - every new iron-clad discovery about diet or health would usually be tempered, reversed or discarded in a couple years.

Also, ring around the collar doesn't seem to be such a big deal anymore, either.

Paco Wové said...

DBQ: I've found that this recipe for mayonnaise is pretty reliable. It's also nice because it uses one whole egg, so you don't have to separate yolks or end up with unused egg bits, and it doesn't make a whole bunch that goes bad before it can be used. As it says, blend the egg and lemon juice together, then drizzle the oil in very slowly with the food processor running – it should take about a minute or more to add all the oil. Sometimes I'll add a touch of powdered mustard also.

Wilbur said...

Good one, William. LOL

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Mayonnaise. It is fairly hard to make at home. Just buy the mayo for general purposes

I put a link up above to a youtube video on how to make mayo. Before immersion blenders it was something of a hassle, Before I got mine I used a stand mixer. But now I use an immersion blender and a four cup measuring cup. Cup of neutral oil, one egg, lime or lemon juice and some salt.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

@ Paco

I'll try it!!! Today. I have a very small capacity 3.5 cup food processor that would be perfect for this sized recipe. Tons of eggs too as a neighbor sells eggs fresh from the hen :-)

Per Ron Winkleheimer...I should probably get a new immersion blender too. Just what I need....more kitchen tools!

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

I agree with DBQ - salad dressing is easy. Just toss the salad with oil and add the vinegar or lemon juice of your choice - you're done. simple. (taste as you go to adjust)

I confess I do like a few bottled dressings:
On the sweet side - Tessemae's Honey poppyseed.
on the savory tangy side: Brianna's "Real French Vinaigrette". no sugar.

Red French dressing? yuck! The goopy mess found at gross salad bars all over? (those are over forever) I ran into a lady at the store once who told me she steers clear of any product with Red Dye #40 in it (and why.) After listening to her, I figured - what the heck - I'm going to try to stay away from it as well. She kinda freaked me out.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I stopped using store bought mayo when they started putting soybean oil in it.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Buy the way, most of the "olive oil" in the grocery store are not really olive oil. Here is a video listing the good stuff.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

oops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg2-iukG80U

Shouting Thomas said...

Lost 45 pounds over last year and a half on my own modified Keto diet.

Last fake food to go was bottled dressing, which I mainly use for raw vegetable dip.

I now make my own ranch dressing. Takes 5 minutes. Mayo, sour cream, onion and garlic powder, dill weed, dried oregano and dried parsley, salt.

Dave Begley said...

In Nebraska, there is the quasi-French dressing called "Dorothy Lynch." I've never liked it. I met the guy who owns it. Very, very rich. Platte County, Nebraska.

tcrosse said...

Now do English Muffins.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Lost 45 pounds over last year and a half on my own modified Keto diet.

I reduced my carb intake, a lot. Not really keto, but reducing carbs works. Which means eliminating processed foods because processed foods are loaded with sugar. Sometimes I indulge and I am amazed at how sweet some things taste now. I made some pre-packed cornbread mix (Jiffy's) to go with some beans and it tasted as sweet to me as I remember cake tasting.

Buy the way, always soak the beans overnight and salt the water. If you brine your beans their creaminess will be much enhanced.

Ambrose said...

Every consider how many NYT news articles are based on the premise that all the problems in the world are due only to the lack of effective federal regulation.

Bob Boyd said...

If the FDA won't stand up to Big Dressing who will?

tcrosse said...

When I worked in the food industry, we would speak of the "F 'n' D A". It sounds obscene when you say it.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

If the FDA won't stand up to Big Dressing who will?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuukM9OY-is

narciso said...

Marion nestle is the nate silver of nutrition

Nonapod said...

So you're saying that the stuff on American grocery store shelves that's labeled as "French Dressing" isn't really "French"? Next you'll be saying that French fries and French toast aren't really French either.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Ron W 8:24

We've made progress since then. Often, what happens, is the pendulum swings too far the other way. And next thing you know the State is force feeding us Soylent Green baby food. and ... forcing us to have bar codes and take our doses.

traditionalguy said...

What’s really bad is the Standing Rib Roasts that won’t stand up in the oven. j ‘accuse!

Rick.T. said...

"In fact it's ham, swiss, cole slaw, russian dressing in a triple-decker sandwich."
------------------
That sounds more like a hillbilly Reuben than a Sloppy Joe.

Howard said...

Thanks, guys. I like all the recipes. I need to get an immersion blender.

My favorite homeade salad dressing is a modified quick Caesar's. Lemon or key lime juice, dijon mustard, mayo, fish sauce, parmesan cheese, garlic powder, Herbs de Provence, fresh ground pepper.

Bob Boyd said...

Keep the rats out, but let the Frogs in.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

how to make homemade fish sauce:

1 dead fish
1 dirty sock
1/2 cup water
blend.

traditionalguy said...

Anchovies make taste everything better.!salted fish Uber alles.

tcrosse said...

"In fact it's ham, swiss, cole slaw, russian dressing in a triple-decker sandwich."

That's what it is in New Jersey. It's wonderful.

stevew said...

Thank goodness we have Dr. Marion Nestle looking out for our nutritional best interest; whether we want her to or not.

When entertaining, mrs. stevew and I always make our own salad dressings, because it is the easiest way to get the flavors right across the menu we put together. My BIL reverse engineered the Italian salad dressing they serve at restaurant in MA called Kitty's. We make that in good sized batches. The only dressings we buy are Caesar and a couple of fruity vinaigrettes from Stonewall Kitchen. That French shite is awful, to my taste anyway.

So what if there is some extra sugar or whatever Dr. Marion Nestle doesn't like in store bought dressings, we don't eat enough of it to make any difference in our health.

mezzrow said...

"When I hear someone mention potato leek soup, that's when I reach for my immersion blender." - mezzrow

MadisonMan said...

I like that a professor related to food is named "Nestle" I hope the last e is pronounced.

I'm Full of Soup said...

My periodic Whan Flu deaths per 100,000:

USA 96
States in Acela Corridor:
CT 157
DC 104
MA 169
NJ 205
NY 187
PA 108
RI 153

Other states = to or > USA average:
AZ 110
FL 96
GA 98
IA 114
IL 129
IN 110
LA 151
MI 127
MS 148
ND 162
NM 104
SD 154

Lastly of interest to Althouse readers is WI is 81.



MadisonMan said...

And you know what I like food-wise about this time of year? Rutabagas. What a delightful and versatile vegetable.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Forgot:

Sweden is 78
Canada is 38
France is 93

Unknown said...

Hey Soup,

Great list. What is California's rate, please.

Thanks

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Since Christmas is coming up, one of my favorite ways to use leftover mashed potatoes (which I eat twice a year, Thanksgiving and Christmas) is to make potato soup out of it. I use chicken stock to thin it out, but milk would work too. You don't really need to do anything else, but if you want to crank it up a notch or two, add some chives, cheddar cheese, and crispy crumbled up bacon to it and call it loaded potato soup.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

I don't add any sour cream or butter because that is already in the mashed potatoes.

Achilles said...

Most of what the FDA does is just like the rest of the federal government.

It protects giant corporations from competition.

That is why our federal government exists now.

Wince said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wince said...

Marion Nestle — "a professor emerita of nutrition, food studies and public health at New York University."

Nestle or Nestlé?

A conflict of interest?

JML said...

"...Americans’ love of all things sugary, from honey mustard to bacon slathered in maple syrup, he said."

BACON!

Howard said...

Achilles: I took a PoliSci class in 1980. The only thing I remember is the arc of government regulations. First it starts out in response to some defect or harm that needs correcting, then it metastasizes into a plethora of semi related areas, then it basically becomes a shill for giant corporations.

Nothing new here, same as it ever was.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Ron Winkleheimer said...I don't understand why people buy pre-made salad dressing. Or mayonnaise.”

My partner is allergic to a lot of fats. Allergic like losing control of her hand her glass of red wine when eating a single bite of fake guacamole made with mayonnaise. It may have been a result of the turpentine that her older sister talked her into drinking when she was very young, that tore up her stomach. Or as her mother always told her, it was all in her head. Which, being very literal, she agreed with. In any case, she has had that affliction for almost sixty years now, and we just live with it. Mayonnaise may not be her worst food, but it is one of her bigger problems, because so many people just throw it in everything.

Her mother was an organic food/make it yourself type, even back in the 1950s. She even made her own cat food. And of course, made her own mayonnaise. Or, had her daughters make it. Which meant my partner, because her older sister couldn’t concentrate well enough to do anything in the kitchen, and her younger sister was the baby, and, therefore exempt from most kitchen duties. This is where “all in her head” came in. The mere whif of mayonnaise can make her throw up. Therefore, one of her chores was invariably to make the mayonnaise for the family for the coming week. One time, she accidentally dropped the knife or fork that she was using in the blender, the operating, rapidly spinning, blender. And, the blender turned the dropped utensil into a rotor, spewing raw mayonnaise all over the place. Including in her hair. Much of it there. This is where loss of muscle control comes in - she tried to pull the blender off its base to stop it from spewing mayonnaise everywhere. Bad idea (she was still very young). She lost muscle control, dropped it, and the rest of the mess was now all over her. That’s when she started throwing up. Her mother was pissed. Her kitchen was a mess. Her father was more sensitive, and sent her to the shower, where it took washing her hair 4-5 times before she got enough of the mayonnaise (and vomit) smell out of it to survive.

That was it thankfully, for mayonnaise duty. But it didn’t end her problems with it. Her mother had five kids to make lunches for every day, and the other four loved mayonnaise, so it was a common thread throughout her lunches. Every day. In junior high, she found a solution for her mayonnaise sandwich issue at lunch every day. She ended up as somewhat a friend of a girl we would now classify as “special needs”. That girl’s mother wasn’t into making all the lunches, etc from scratch, as my partner’s was, and instead just sent her daughter to school with lunch money. Ultimately, they began swapping lunches. My partner, the entrepreneur, was making a couple bucks a day. In a fit of Catholic guilt, at the end of the year, put much of the money she had made that year into a present for the other girl.

hawkeyedjb said...

When David Kessler was head of the FDA, he famously had some orange juice seized because it was made from concentrate but labeled "fresh." Kessler said it was so obviously not fresh that his grandmother could easily tell the difference. Which leads to the question: Why, then, does government need to be involved?

Bruce Hayden said...

We do have logistics problems when it comes to salad dressings. I naturally love mayonnaise based salad dressings. Favorite is Blue Cheese, but Ranch is fine. White and creamy - yum, yum. When we are out, this isn’t a problem, because I put the salad dressing on my salads. But at home, she sees making my dinners, including my salads, part of her duties. And, truthfully, she tries to do portion control on my salad dressing consumption (but her salads actually swim in the quantity that she uses). In any case, if I am around, when she is making my salad for the night, I am sure to hear a lot of groaning and almost retching when she is mixing my salad up. Oh, and did I mention that her mother believed her five kids were all practicing for show biz, by how dramatic they were? Except when they were caught by their mother charging admission to their show at one of the campgrounds they were saying at, and that is a different story... (they got this from their father who spent his life competing with his brother for the spotlight).

Every several years, she shifts what dressing she prefers. Oil and vinegar, then Italian, French, Greek, and now, mostly, that horrid Catalina (Lite) dressing mentioned above. Except that we augment it with Olive Garden Italian dressing from Costco. I mentioned earlier that she overuses salad dressing. Understatement. She also rarely finishes anything in one sitting, and the remainder goes in the refrigerator as leftovers (for her in this case - I find her salads horrid). Adding more salad dressing every night, and there may be a quarter inch of the stuff at the bottom of bowl after a day or two. Maybe more. I have learned not to even look

Bruce Hayden said...

“Achilles: I took a PoliSci class in 1980. The only thing I remember is the arc of government regulations. First it starts out in response to some defect or harm that needs correcting, then it metastasizes into a plethora of semi related areas, then it basically becomes a shill for giant corporations.”

“Nothing new here, same as it ever was”

With that understanding, how the heck do you justify being somewhat the leftist here? This is one of the reasons that people are driven to libertarianism.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Would have thought French fries were more offensive but they always cut Belgians slack.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Ron Winkleheimer said...Since Christmas is coming up, one of my favorite ways to use leftover mashed potatoes (which I eat twice a year, Thanksgiving and Christmas) is to make potato soup out of it

Potato soup?...LEEKS. Saute them in bacon fat before making the soup and adding the milk/cream and other ingredients. Use some of the green parts too! Leeks are the secret to my New England Clam chowder. (thank you Julia Child)

Also I like leftover mashed potatoes mixed with some flour, seasonings, beaten eggs, maybe some milk to thin just a bit, and some other bits like crispy bacon crumbles (sense a trend?) to make savory potato pancakes. Fried in butter. Ummy for breakfast with eggs over easy.

(Yay...food thread!)

Joe Smith said...

"...from honey mustard to bacon slathered in maple syrup..."

Do what you like to French dressing...don't eat it.

Fuck with bacon at your own peril.

I believe every single American (sans vegans) can agree on that.

Wince said...

Here's a Bleg: What's the best, nothing fancy Extra Virgin Olive Oil for homemade dressing?

Joe Smith said...

Costco sells great olive oil. If you use it a lot you can buy the big-ish jugs.

Extra-virgin (love that designation), cold-pressed, organic if you want it...

Hard to beat for an everyday EVOO.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Also I like leftover mashed potatoes mixed with some flour, seasonings, beaten eggs, maybe some milk to thin just a bit, and some other bits like crispy bacon crumbles (sense a trend?) to make savory potato pancakes. Fried in butter. Ummy for breakfast with eggs over easy.

I like them with poached eggs.


Ron Winkleheimer said...

I too recommend Costco's Kirkland brand olive oil.

AZ Bob said...

So you're saying that the stuff on American grocery store shelves that's labeled as "French Dressing" isn't really "French"? Next you'll be saying that French fries and French toast aren't really French either.

You mean Ranch Dressing wasn't developed by cowboys?

Howard said...

Bruce: It's your simpleton political model that's confusing you.

hawkeyedjb said...

Costco olive oil is fine, certainly equal to any "name-brand" for general use, and cost per floz is low.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Ron Winkleheimer said...I too recommend Costco's Kirkland brand olive oil.

Ditto! also their brand of Modena Balsamic Vinegar.

Howard said...

From what I hear from my millennial family and friends is that freshness is the most important quality of olive oil. Therefore, they recommend California grown olive oil. Remember, California Olive farmers are likely Trump supporters, not Gavin Newsom butt-boys, therefore, they meet the political purity patronage test.

Leland said...

Nestle or Nestlé?

A conflict of interest?


I wondered the same at first, but Wikipedia says no relationship, so take that for what it is worth. Then again, she is a professor of "food studies and public health" and not a culinary chef. She wrote a book titled "Food Politics". So her interest is very much in food regulation. Asking her opinion about food deregulation is like asking a communist their opinion of free markets.

Darkisland said...

Ron,

When I was in Flatlandia the last 2 weeks I made something similar with a huge butternut squash using a recipe I found on the internet. Recipes.com?

I did not include an apple but now that you mention it, I really like the idea and will try it next time. Peeled, I assume?

I did include some green pepper and chicken broth.

I did not have a blender or a masher so mashed it with a kitchen whisk. It did not get it as smooth as a blender would but it had a very interesting, slightly lumpy, texture.

I too object to the govt regulating what is and isn't "French" dressing. None of their damn business.

I am reluctantly OK with them regulating the plants and ingredients to make sure they are safe. Not what ingredients are used, though, as long as those are disclosed.

John Henry

Rick.T. said...

Here's a Bleg: What's the best, nothing fancy Extra Virgin Olive Oil for homemade dressing?
-----------------------------
We're perfectly happy with the Costco Kirkland brand EVOO. It's highly rated and inexpensive. I've found the organic version can vary a bit year by year and a couple years ago was very peppery. As always, YMMV.

Achilles said...

Bruce Hayden said...

“Achilles: I took a PoliSci class in 1980. The only thing I remember is the arc of government regulations. First it starts out in response to some defect or harm that needs correcting, then it metastasizes into a plethora of semi related areas, then it basically becomes a shill for giant corporations.”

“Nothing new here, same as it ever was”

With that understanding, how the heck do you justify being somewhat the leftist here? This is one of the reasons that people are driven to libertarianism.

Words. words. words.

You people are stuck on words and labels. Teams. Us vs. Them.

This is why so many of you voted for Mitt Romney in 2012 when it was clear at that point he was one the worst pieces of shit in the country. He is worse than Hillary or Biden or Obama and you people voted for him.

You people need to get in the habit of typing out what you think a word means without using the word. You are stuck in unconscious thought patterns that keep you in ruts.

Every social arrangement that resembles "Government" requires cleansing after a period of time.

"Government" is magnetic to the type of person that is mediocre, unproductive, and wants to tell other people what to do. We should thank Washington DC for attracting so many of these people into one condensed space. Ditto for numerous other State capitols.

It makes the next necessary steps easier.

Achilles said...

What we have now as a "Federal Government" is completely unrecognizable in any realistic terms.

This is not a social arrangement that anyone reading the Constitution would ever imagine.

Actually type out what the FDA does now.

The "Food and Drug Administration" has rules governing what ingredients can be in a bottle of "French" dressing.

it is time for Washington DC to be depopulated.

Michael K said...

I am reluctantly OK with them regulating the plants and ingredients to make sure they are safe. Not what ingredients are used, though, as long as those are disclosed.

That sounds more like dept of Ag, not FDA.

tcrosse said...

Re the FDA:
"Food manufacturers are required to list all ingredients in the food on the label. On a product label, the ingredients are listed in order of predominance, with the ingredients used in the greatest amount first, followed in descending order by those in smaller amounts."

Darkisland said...

Blogger Paco Wové said...

DBQ: I've found that this recipe for mayonnaise is pretty reliable.

Y'all are making me hungry.

I had always thought mayonaise was more complicated. I may try that recipe tonight.

Trivia point: Ever wonder why the Hellmann's mayonaise slogan is "When you bring out the Hellmann's, you bring out the best."?

Because west of the Missisippi Helmann's goes by the name of Best instead of Helmann.

John Henry

NCMoss said...

Don't get Barry started on the lack of dog in hot dogs.

Michael K said...


Blogger Howard said...
Bruce: It's your simpleton political model that's confusing you.


Typical Howard. Always disdaining his betters. All those blue cities make no impression on his politics,. Just tribal.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Peeled, I assume?

Yep. And not a lot. 1/2 small apple in a recipe calling for 12oz of squash.

William said...

Nutritionists have their assumptions, some so strong that they edge towards prejudice. There must be something about garlic that's good for you. They haven't found it yet, but they keep looking. They're definitely pro garlic. In like way, they're deeply suspicious of coffee. They keep looking for something detrimental, but research has shown that coffee is some kind of health food....Monosodium glutamate. They really hate the stuff. They just know that there's something wrong with it. It's so damn frustrating. There's has to be a link between monosodium glutamate and some malady. The truth is out there.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Unknown:

California is 57 deaths per 100,000.

Puerto Rico is 46.

JPS said...

rhhardin, 7:27:

"Somebody pointed out long ago that there's [no] FDA limit on nuclear waste in hamburger, so it might be a way to dispose of nuclear waste."

Oh, this takes me back.

Maybe 25 years ago, the idea was gaining currency in some corners that we should irradiate sealed food, using gamma rays from outside the package, to kill all the bacteria, leading to fewer food-borne illnesses, enabling longer-term safe storage, etc.

I'll point out that the food in question would no more emit radiation, after the gamma source was taken away, than your food emits light after you turn the room lights off.

Anyway, one of the anti-nuclear activist groups had a wonderful ad showing a mushroom cloud over a gorgeously photographed plate of food, with the caption, "The Department of Energy has a new solution to the problem of nuclear waste. They want to put it in your food."

Wince said...

Thanks for the EVO recommendations.

Makes it easy when there is consensus!

Darkisland said...

Michael,

The real reason for all this regulation is to drive smaller manufacturers out of business.

They can't afford the cost of complying with the regulations. If I wanted to go into the French Dressing business, even on just a very small scale, it would cost me $50-75m just in doing the documentation.

We really see that concentration in the pharma industry. Last week I explained why it cost $100mm to build a new vial filling line.

When I came into the industry there were 20-30 major players in Pharma and perhaps a hundred or two smaller ones.

Major players like
Pfizer
Upjohn
Lederle
Weyeth
Merck
Schering
Parke-Davis
Warner-Lambert
Warner-Chilcott
Syntex

and so on. Many of those are now part of Pfizer. Nobody smaller can afford to make drugs any more much less develop them.

And that's the way the big players like it. Oligopoly and govt protection of their markets. They don't care what the costs are they just pass it along to the patient who doesn't care either since they pass it along to the insurers and so on.

And the politicians, in and out of office and their families get rich from pharma support.

And the media: How many non-pharma ads do you see on TV? Probably 50-70% of all media income derives from pharma products.

Might that be the reason you never see any negative stories about pharma? Except when one of them cuts its ad budget.

John Henry

Tom T. said...

Meanwhile, McDonald's special sauce remains a closely guarded secret.

Howard said...

The "special sauce" recipe was revealed by Tyler Durden.

Howard said...

John Henry: exactly right. Regulation is the most successful and pernicious form of multinational corporate socialism.

Given that axium, how do you feel about the calls for regulating social media and technology behemoths?

Achilles said...

As John states the FDA is merely a place for Pfizer people to take a few years off work. Every now and then one of them gets elected to office. Even the corporate overhead of Pfizer is completely detached from what the company actually does.

When there were 300+ companies this corporate overhead didn't exist and wasn't necessary.

In the end there are no Republicans or Democrats or CEO's or Bureaucrats. There is no difference between Senator, GS-14, Corporate Officer. They are all parasites on the productive members of our economy.

The people do not need them. The scientists that do all of the development do not need them. The companies that produce the products do not need them.

Electing Biden was all about keeping these parasites firmly attached to their host.

Which is us.

You people are so attached to your support of Trump and Republicans with no thought to what is really at stake.

Freeman Hunt said...

Yes, lots of food is too sweet, but that's not a specifically American thing.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

I paused for a long sip of coffee on the word "and" in the blog post title sentence, which separated the "it" from its antecedent and gave a whole different meaning to the rest of the sentence:

"[T]he F.D.A. has tentatively concluded that it is no longer necessary to promote honesty and fair dealing in the interest of consumers and may limit flexibility for innovation."

Ralph L said...

My gut can't deal with the egg yolk in many bottled dressings and ice creams. Hellman's and Kraft mayo I can usually tolerate within 3 days of opening, some brands not at all. Same thing with sour cream & cream cheese after exposure to air. Restaurant mayo is right out.

Joe Smith said...

"From what I hear from my millennial family and friends is that freshness is the most important quality of olive oil. Therefore, they recommend California grown olive oil."

Second that...

I like Napa Valley Naturals Private Reserve (sold at Safeway) even though it's from olives grown in the upper Sacramento Valley.

Achilles said...

Howard said...

John Henry: exactly right. Regulation is the most successful and pernicious form of multinational corporate socialism.

Given that axium, how do you feel about the calls for regulating social media and technology behemoths?


No regulations.

Antitrust action.

Google needs to be about 200 companies.

Facebook needs to be about 50.

Microsoft 100ish.

Salesforce 20ish.

For example Microsoft purchased github. There was no reason for this to be allowed. It served no purpose other than control. It didn't make either entity more profitable and assuredly made github less profitable.

SaleForce did not need Heroku.
Google does not need youtube.
Facebook does not need instagram.

The list goes on. Smash them and put heads on pikes.

narciso said...

github, which was the barnacle to which ocean lotus and other malware was attached,

Joe Smith said...

"The "special sauce" recipe was revealed by Tyler Durden."

Bill Clinton revealed it to Monica, but told her to keep it a secret...

Michael K said...

For example Microsoft purchased github. There was no reason for this to be allowed. It served no purpose other than control. It didn't make either entity more profitable and assuredly made github less profitable.

SaleForce did not need Heroku.
Google does not need youtube.
Facebook does not need instagram.


This is what Obamacare did to Medicine. I used to joke with a hospital administrator friend that they hated doctors because we kept interfering in their well planned schemes to control us and the patients. We laughed about it but both of us knew it was true.

Obamacare included a requirement that all providers, including one doctor practices, must buy Electronic Medical Record systems or give up 3% of Medicare payments. Back when I was still in practice, because by that time "managed care" was in full swing, I had 176 "contracts" with various entities like HMOs. I bought a EMR system just for my office. The contracts all had different requirements, such as which lab to send a test to. I had already been "fined" $500 for sending a $16 culture to "the wrong lab." The system cost me $30,000, for one small surgical practice.

When Obamacare appeared, it forced all those GPs to spend that kind of money (and quite a bit more) or sell their practices to the hospital whose administrators hated them. Medicine became "vertically integrated" as Ted Kennedy wanted and doctors became employees.

A few older docs are just dropping all insurance including Medicare and going to a cash practice that was common in the 1950s. Depending on specialty, overhead can drop by 75%. I even know some surgeons doing it.

Dr Weevil said...

My mother found French dressing very useful for one purpose: marinating a flank steak in it turns a way-too-tough cut of meat into a nice tender one, which (oddly) doesn't taste at all like French dressing. That knowledge would still be useful if sous vide machines hadn't been invented: now it's easy to make a delicious tender flank steak without any marinade, you just have to leave it in the sous vide long enough. (But not too long: I once made one that came out kind of mushy: ugh!)

JaimeRoberto said...

If a dressing wants to identify as French, who are we to say otherwise?

JaimeRoberto said...

"There's apparently no FDA standard for Russian dressing."

Evidence of Putin's influence. Is there still time to impeach?

MadisonMan said...

Leeks are the secret to my New England Clam chowder
Make it with skim milk/clam juice instead of cream. Much less cloying and fatty. (And you've made Rhode Island Clam Chowder this way).

Butkus51 said...

3rd time Ive heard or read the "French Dressing" story this morning.

WTF

Ron Winkleheimer said...

You people are so attached to your support of Trump and Republicans with no thought to what is really at stake.

I'm not "attached" to Trump or the Republicans. I voted for him for three reasons.

1) His positions regarding illegal immigration, no new wars, deregulation, etc
2) He wasn't Hillary Clinton
3) He wasn't Jeb Bush

I think you'll find that most Trump supporters aren't all that attached to the Republican party either. Unless they are the sort of people who like it when their wife cheats on them.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

And if the people calling in to the local radio talk show are anything to go by, they are very well aware of what is at stake.

bagoh20 said...

I wonder how much tax payers pay to have French dressing regulated. It certainly employs multiple people, offices and equipment and the regulators now work from home with expenses paid, and get a pension with health care paid for the rest of their life, like virtually nobody gets who actually eats the damned stuff. The nation has become a plantation, and we need a slave revolt.

bagoh20 said...

"You people are so attached to your support of Trump and Republicans with no thought to what is really at stake."

And you people haven't understood us people since before Trump, and understand us even less today. You simply do not know what you are talking about. You should care about the same things we do. I bet you would adamantly insist that you do if there simply wasn't a Trump to hate in the equation. You stopped thinking and caring about serious issues in 2016, if not earlier. Voting for Biden/Harris is proof of that.

Darkisland said...

Blogger Howard said...

Given that axium, how do you feel about the calls for regulating social media and technology behemoths?

I thought I have been clear in the past when I have addressed that. I am against it. For most of the same reasons I discussed with FDA regulation.

Let Twitter, Google, Apple, Facebook do what they want. I use none of them. Google a little bit for YouTube and couple throway email addresses. Maybe 6-8 times a year for search if I can't find what I need on DDG or Bing.

Govt is a huge consumer of Google and I would not mind seeing them use some of their bigness to help some competitors a bit. For example, making DDG and Dragon or Firefox the default search and browser on all govt servers, absent some technical reason not to.

President Trump is parlaying on Parler in addition to Twitter. I believe it is simultaneous at the moment. I would not mind seeing him frontrunning posts on Parler by an hour or two to help drive media to Parler so they can get his words of wisdom first.

I see no reason for govt computers to allow access to Facebook. There may be some official, govt business reasons for some to have Facebook access. But damn few. Block it otherwise because it is a drag on govt efficiency.

Ditto Twitter (And Gab and Parler and Mastodon)

I don't mind the govt using Apple. They have relatively little market share so a bit of business tossed Apple's way is fine by me. I never understand why Apple is seen as a problem in this regard.

But no need for anything more than the very lightest touch, if that, on regulation of these services.

Don't like these services? Don't use them. Let others know you don't use them and why. Recommend others try Dragon vs Chrome (Identical browsers but no spyware on Dragon)

Get them to try DDG or Bing. I use ddg on 3 devices, Bing on a 4th and am very happy with them. I have not used Google for search for more than 15 years. When I do use it occasionally, I find it no better than DDG/Bing.

John Henry

Darkisland said...

The dressing was originally a simple vinaigrette made of oil and vinegar,

I had mentioned a week or two back that I was reading Bill Burford's book "Dirt" where he and family moved to Lyon for 5 years so he could learn to cook at a professional level in a grand French restaurant.

A fascinating book throughout. It didn't make me any more inclined to want to go to a French restaurant but he is a hell of a writer. He makes even uninteresting stuff interesting. Kind of like a younger John McPhee in that regard.

There is nothing at all simple about vinagrette dressing. Not in France. He has most of a chapter on the hundreds of different ways vinagrette can be prepared as well as the history going back 4 centuries.

Currently reading his book Among the Thugs where he dives in feet first to the British soccer hooligan scene. I would never have thought to read anything about them. But Burford is good and this book is terrific too. I'm about 15% in and don't know how he will get a whole book out of it but I'll play along for now.

John Henry

Darkisland said...

DBQ(?)

The mayonaise recipe you (or someone) posted sounded so good I decided to make it for some chicken salad for lunch.

I think I did it wrong, I used a small blender that I can't dribble oil into so mixed it all at once. It did not thicken. It tasted delicious and might have been good on a salad.

So I mixed last nights chicken with some Helmanns.

Gonna find the bigger blender and try again tonight.

John Henry

walter said...

It's the Champagne of salad dressings.

Achilles said...

Darkisland said...

Don't like these services? Don't use them. Let others know you don't use them and why. Recommend others try Dragon vs Chrome (Identical browsers but no spyware on Dragon)

This will not work.

The entire software development chain is owned by the big companies.

To get your first job as a software developer the overwhelming majority of people have to go to a job at a company that hates individual freedom and pushes diversity quotas.

The large tech companies make more money spying on people using their free products than a competitor can make.

Companies like Spotify make their platforms malfunction on browsers on purpose.

The government is going to court to force back doors into software.

The list of issues could go on forever.

These companies need to be broken up just as our federal government needs to be broken up.

tcrosse said...

I think I did it wrong, I used a small blender that I can't dribble oil into so mixed it all at once.

You gotta dribble it. You need a hole in the lid of the blender.

Tomcc said...

(Completely off-topic)
Michael K @ 11:28; you describe exactly what my sister, a private practice Internal Medicine doc went through. The estimate to convert her medical records was closer to $250k. She had previously been approached by the Borg of Western PA and so she sold out to them. It was a difficult relationship, not because the health system was unreasonable- she just didn't like being an employee. Four years later and 6 months before her 65th birthday she was told they weren't going to renew her contract.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Eric the Fruit Bat @7:14

...Welcome Back!

Bunkypotatohead said...

The people who buy that stuff don't know or care what the FDA has to say about it.

Darkisland said...

Achilles,

You sound like someone who uses Chrome for a browser, defaults to Google as your search engine of choice and has a Facebook account which they check regularly.

How am I doing? 3 for 3?

And you want someone else to save you.

Kind of like the alcholic who wants to ban booze so they won't be tempted to drink.

You don't seem like that kind of person otherwise but I see a lot of people get sucked into these things and get kind of irrational.

I spent 2 weeks in an AirBnB in Flatlandia recently. There was an Alexa device in the kitchen. First thing I did was wrap a heavy towel around it.

Then after a couple of days I asked it if it would snow that night. Then I was asking temperature. Then I was having it play some tunes. And gradually I got sucked in. It really is cool. I even found myself thinking it might be nice to have a spy in my house.

after a few days I realized what was happening and wrapped the towel around it again.

It is really easy to get sucked into that kind of thing.

So who should protect me? Myself or the government?

John Henry

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

Does the Feral Gummit also have Regulations covering types of salad dressing that do not yet exist, e.g. "1500 Island" or "Bulgarian." but might?

Paco Wové said...

"You gotta dribble it. You need a hole in the lid of the blender"

Yes. Probably too late now, but the very slow addition of oil to the egg is vital. (This is where watching a video is probably helpful.) Leave the blender/food processor running, and slowly, agonizingly slowly, dribble in the oil. Nothing will seem to happen for about 50 seconds, but then, over the next 15 seconds or so, mayonnaise will start to appear.

Lurker21 said...

Leave it to the Times and the activists to ruin French dressing.

They hate it but they don't want it to change.

Marion Nestle — "a professor emerita of nutrition, food studies and public health at New York University" — called bullshit on the FDA : "They want to do it because they want less fat than what’s in the standard of identity, and they want to put more junk in it. And their argument is everybody knows what these things are, and everybody knows what they’re buying."

Sounds like somebody's taking the Kraft-Nestlé's break-up a little too personally.