Althouse: "I’ve honestly started wondering if this is just how men’s minds actually work in real life and now instead of being uncomfortable about passages like these, I’m uncomfortable about life."

December 24, 2020

"I’ve honestly started wondering if this is just how men’s minds actually work in real life and now instead of being uncomfortable about passages like these, I’m uncomfortable about life."

A comment at the subreddit menwritingwomen.

The commenter is reacting in general to snippets of writing that have been posted in that group and specifically to this one:

108 comments:

Shouting Thomas said...: Reminds me of Erica Jong’s descriptions of men in “Fear of Flying.” I remember in particular one passage about a lover who she thought didn’t wipe his ass adequately.

Of course, that’s courageous and ground breaking because a woman did it.; 12/24/20, 7:27 AM
iowan2 said...: I'm too obtuse to see the issue of debate here.; 12/24/20, 7:27 AM
Fernandinande said...: The "marooned" sentence was poor, the rest of it...what about it?

I might honestly start wondering if the comment at the subreddit menwritingwomen indicates just how women’s minds actually work in real life (and now, not being uncomfortable about comments like that, I’m not uncomfortable about life.) Or whatever.; 12/24/20, 7:29 AM
Patrick said...: Please explain the objection to those of us who are handicapped; 12/24/20, 7:32 AM
traditionalguy said...: Christ mas is about new born hope for men and women. This is about hopelessness at the Sartre level. No rejoicing allowed.; 12/24/20, 7:35 AM
Unknown said...: Glasses are the great curse.

As we age, we lose our eyesight.

Take off the glasses and our lovers appear young again.

We were never supposed to notice aging. But somebody invented eyeglasses.; 12/24/20, 7:35 AM
Marcus Bressler said...: It's someone's writing, for goodness sakes. Pity the person who, like this one, might read some actual works of literature.

THEOLDMAN

Snowflakes, indeed.; 12/24/20, 7:37 AM
rhhardin said...: Looks don't matter, personality does. The sharpest side of looks don't matter is that no matter how good you look, somebody is tired of fucking you. So work on your personality, not your boobs. Moreover it lasts forever.; 12/24/20, 7:38 AM
Shouting Thomas said...: @traditionalguy

Yes, I was wondering what provoked the prof to take another swap at the war between men and women on Christmas Eve.

I’ve been thinking about writing a song on this subject, a funny one. The war gets suspended for about a decade from puberty to child birth so that we can tolerate one another sufficiently to reproduce.; 12/24/20, 7:39 AM
Kevin said...: How can women go about their days knowing at least some men don’t see them as the vital, glorious, bewitching creatures they know themselves to be?; 12/24/20, 7:43 AM
Lewis Wetzel said...: It is entirely possible that the biological male who wrote that snippet secretly identifies as a woman, meaning that there is no meaningful way in which she is a male.; 12/24/20, 7:44 AM
stlcdr said...: I thought r/menwritingwomen was about men writing from the perspective of a woman. This appears to be a man, on the sofa, observing a woman. Regarding the ‘rears’ part; it sounds like we are missing some context in the passage.

Isn’t it pretty much well known, by now, how men’s minds work? Come for the looks, stay for the personality?; 12/24/20, 7:45 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Unknown said...Glasses are the great curse.

as we age, we lose our eyesight.

Take off the glasses and our lovers appear young again.

There are always Beer Goggles.; 12/24/20, 7:53 AM
iowan2 said...: Thanks rhhardin, at least I can see the supposed slight. Of course you are 100% right. Sexual attraction,(past the lust stage) happens between the ears. What neither sex understands well enough is to as the question, "would I have sex with someone that acted like me?" Not on a date, or in the bedroom, but the other 99% of the time.

My dad gave me "the talk" one morning at breakfast. He asked about a girl I had been dating for more than then a month, the first one to hang around that long. This is an area my dad never cared enough to comment on, until then. Dad asked if I liked the girl, I said I did. He said I better figure out if I liked her enough to sit across the breakfast table for the rest of my life.
That was it. As escalation of "you know what to do, don't be stupid".; 12/24/20, 7:54 AM
tcrosse said...: My Dad's advice was to take a look at the girl's Mom, because that's what you'll end up with. A very sobering thought indeed.; 12/24/20, 8:00 AM
Rory said...: Given only that passage and required to guess, I'd have guessed that it was written by a woman.; 12/24/20, 8:02 AM
Sebastian said...: "I’ve honestly started wondering if this is just how men’s minds actually work in real life and now instead of being uncomfortable about passages like these, I’m uncomfortable about life . . . I always think of the straight male writers I know and hope it’s just those men in particular who are constantly judging women’s sexual attractiveness. It’s just so unfair to women as human beings to have to be physically perfect but not allowed to be anything else."

I've honestly started wondering if this is how women's minds actually work in real life and now instead of laughing at passages like these, they're uncomfortable amongst themselves about lacking agency, self-respect, and a sense of humor.

Fortunately, I know of non-prog exceptions.; 12/24/20, 8:03 AM
gerry said...: I'm too obtuse to see the issue of debate here.

Be grateful. Fewer and fewer of Althouse's posts are worth any consideration.; 12/24/20, 8:06 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: It's good writing because the hair, sleepiness, T-shirt, and pajama bottoms keep him from seeing all the other saggy stuff.; 12/24/20, 8:07 AM
Wince said...: A comment at the subreddit menwritingwomen.

The writer in that snippet forgot to "take away reason and accountability."; 12/24/20, 8:09 AM
Andrew said...: The best writing in this category (a man describing the mind of a woman) is from Key and Peele.
https://youtu.be/qQi3_PpYzIM; 12/24/20, 8:09 AM
Darrell said...: Men are from Mars, women are from Crazy Town.; 12/24/20, 8:09 AM
jaydub said...: Nothing like celebrating Christmas Eve by stirring up a little feminist outrage for fun and games. So, let's take it a step further by adding some context: suppose the man in this particular complaint is a transitioning Black bisexual and the woman is a White heterosexual who has yet to acknowledge her privilege. Now, using that added perspective compare and contrast the Black tranny's societal burden vis-a-vis the White oppressor's sagging tits. In your analysis address the following questions: Could this straight White female have avoided this situation entirely by undergoing a double mastectomy? Would breast implants have solved the problem? Why does the Black man always get blamed for the sloth of the White women? For extra credit and in the interest of Wokeness, provide an irrational argument regarding which one should be prioritized for the Wuflu shot. Show your work and cite references.

Merry Christmas.; 12/24/20, 8:13 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Blogger iowan2 said...

I'm too obtuse to see the issue of debate here.

Me too.; 12/24/20, 8:14 AM
Howard said...: Bad writing like that makes me embarrassed for the author.; 12/24/20, 8:15 AM
Temujin said...: To answer the question in the header "I’ve honestly started wondering if this is just how men’s minds actually work in real life...", the answer is an unequivocal- Yes.

And our thoughts are the nice ones. You should know what my wife sees when I'm standing in front of the mirror at the end of the day, plucking things out of my teeth with floss, my formerly taut chest and shoulders now slumped and racing toward the middle, my stomach just...there. My old man noises. (and I'm not old). Sometimes I'll catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror and instantly stand bolt up- shoulders back, stomach in, chest tight. There...just dropped off 20 years.

My wife just looks over, rolls her eyes, and turns to leave the room. I can imagine her thoughts at that time. So can you. We're human. It's what we do- both genders do it.

There was a great comment in the subreddit, however: "This is how I will get rid of my guests on Christmas day. My breasts will yawn ostentatiously and shuffle wearily down my chest." Funny.; 12/24/20, 8:20 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Here's the page in the actual book, which is "Defending Jacob" by William Landay, published by Random House.

Wikipedia describes the reception: "Defending Jacob received generally positive reviews from critics, who praised the book's subject matter and handling of court scenes. Patrick Andersen of Washington Post called it an "exceptionally serious, suspenseful, engrossing story", with an ending that was "all too real, all too painful, all too haunting". Hallie Ephron of The Boston Globe also positively reviewed the book's "riveting courtroom procedure" and its parallel narratives that "interlock like the teeth of a zipper, building to a tough and unflinching finale".Entertainment Weekly's Thom Geier gave it a B+, stating: "[Landay's] prose can be workmanlike and his dialogue pedestrian (Jacob and his peers sound like no teens you’ve ever met). But with a grabby premise and careful plotting, he keeps you turning the pages through the shocking gut-punch of an ending". Writing for the Chicago Tribune, Julia Keller gave the book a mixed review, panning the "inexplicable bursts of clunky, cliche-ridden prose and huge dumps of exposition" and opined that the ending was "signaled so flamboyantly and built up to at such tedious length that that readers will be well within their rights to skim". In his piece for Kirkus Reviews, J. Kingston Pierce disagreed, writing: "Many readers, preferring neatly tied-up plots, will be frustrated by the way Landay drops red herrings and possibly significant clues, but then leaves a surfeit of questions outstanding at the end of the book. However, the raggedness of this story’s final section, especially, is one of its signal strengths"."; 12/24/20, 8:24 AM
Ann Althouse said...: The line that is the focus of the discussion at r/menwritingwomen is "Her breasts drooped inside it, defeated by age, gravity."; 12/24/20, 8:25 AM
Mary Beth said...: The title of the post on reddit is: Is she really a woman if her boobs are not described?

Men noticing boobs and commenting on them is the problem people are having. I don't see anyone complaining about the character noticing her messy hair.

It's hard to tell from one short passage if the description including a phrase like "defeated by age" is just a man being snarky about a woman's boobs sagging or if it is supposed to represent a greater theme for the character. I don't see how the commenters on reddit can judge it out of context.

I see a lot of complaints that men aren't described in similar ways. That seems easy to fix - write a story describing men in negative terms, publish it and then revel in the outpouring of compliments from fellow redditors.; 12/24/20, 8:26 AM
PaladinQB said...: It makes an interesting comparison to what happens when women write men.; 12/24/20, 8:26 AM
Ann Althouse said...: Landay is a lawyer turned novelist. He went to Yale undergrad and Boston Law School.; 12/24/20, 8:27 AM
tcrosse said...: Jamie Lee Curtis once said that her breasts are like her hair. Sometimes she wears it up, and sometimes she wears it down.; 12/24/20, 8:30 AM
hombre said...: One need only browse the covers of paperback novels written by and for women to understand the fatuousness of this comment in particular and today’s feminism in general.; 12/24/20, 8:30 AM
etbass said...: "Fewer and fewer of Althouse's posts are worth any consideration."

It's been like that since she announced she was abstaining from voting.; 12/24/20, 8:33 AM
Mark O said...: You had me at "interlock like the teeth of a zipper, building to a tough and unflinching finale."
Ew.; 12/24/20, 8:34 AM
Shouting Thomas said...: Kind of a lull in Althouse’s production of interesting stuff.

But, hey, she’s been doing this for more than a decade. Most of us gave up after a few years and decided to do it on Facebook.

She can even stand to referee these comments. God knows how.; 12/24/20, 8:39 AM
Fernandinande said...: Reminder: 2+2 = 5.

"pinned by moderators
Posted byu/NicoleMary27
Announcement: TERFS not welcome
Reminder: Trans Women are Women. TERFS are not welcome"; 12/24/20, 8:39 AM
Fernandinande said...: It makes an interesting comparison to what happens when women write men.

--> Fifty Shades of Grey, etc.

Funny, the WomenWritingMen reddit speaks of "6 shades whiter teeth".; 12/24/20, 8:46 AM
Chick said...: The writer lost me at 'slumped'.; 12/24/20, 8:52 AM
Bob Boyd said...: He didn't say dugs...so there's that.; 12/24/20, 8:55 AM
Drago said...: Once again, I cannot possibly assess the value or correctness of the article without a clearer delineation of the race, gender, sexual identity and political affiliation of all involved.; 12/24/20, 8:55 AM
JML said...: My parents were friends with a very tall, shaply woman. She told my mom one day that her young daughter was watched her get dressed one morning, and the daughter asked, "Mom, why do you have to wear a bra?" He mom replied, "Because if I didn't;t and I turned quickly, my breasts would slap you silly." Question: I'm a man relaying a story as told by a woman. Does this still make for an uncomfortable view on life??; 12/24/20, 8:58 AM
BudBrown said...: Men do 24 hours at Daytona. Women do womansplainin...; 12/24/20, 9:06 AM
chuck said...: Ben Franklin weighs in:

5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.; 12/24/20, 9:20 AM
Paul said...: She looked so fair in the night
when the wind blew up her nightie
Her tits hung loose
like the balls of a Moose
And her twat was high and mighty.

(found on the bathroom walls of SFASU in 1978 by yours truly); 12/24/20, 9:22 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: There is a saying that women hate than men look at them as sex objects, until they wake up one day, the men don’t, and that is worse. Women often go from being the object of men’s attention to invisibility almost overnight. My view is that the men mostly only see the women who have yet to lose their sexual attraction, and have no attention left for those who have lost it.

In our defense as guys, that is the way that we are wired, and the two sexes evolved. It all revolves around fertility. Women at their most fertile are also at their greatest beauty. This is somewhere in the 18-20 year old range. Then a decline in fertility and looks until the point that they are no longer able to breed. In women, youth and beauty go together, and equate to power over men, due to their breeding potential. And it is that power, lost through wrinkles, sagging breasts and buttocks, gray hair etc, that weapon really hate.

As a species, we evolved that way. Evolution is always moving maturity around a bit, which is why our brains mature so late, and we have such a long dependency period. The young of chimps, our closest genetic relatives, keep up, if not exceed, our young in intelligence until a couple years of age, then quit brain maturation. Our brains do not complete full maturation until sometime in our mid 20s, with females statistically a year or two ahead of males. Moreover, through a process termed “neotony”, we retain features into adulthood that our chimpanzee and gorilla ape relatives lose at adulthood, such as shape and thickness of our skulls. Hair naturally darkens with age until adulthood, which is why females of our species tend to naturally have more blonds.

We have evolved to where the sexual attractiveness of the two sexes mature at different speeds. It runs faster in females, than in males. I expect that a good part of that is a result of our extended dependency (which is probably to a great extent a result of our larger brain size, and the resulting necessity of completing development ex utero). Men have been known to father children into their 70s. Imagine the chances of survival of children, in more ancient times, of a woman giving birth at that age. Far lower, statistically, than a 20 year old mother. And that is what drives evolution: statistics of progeny, and esp grandchildren, surviving long enough to reproduce.

When I was in HS and college, I used to envy women. Dating seemed so easy for them. They just had to flash their sexual lures, and their date cards would fill up. Turns out, the problem was that I was competing with bunches of older guys for their affections. Then, I was back on the dating market in my late 40s, and esp here in Scottsdale, the places had switched. A bunch of desperate women chasing a shrinking supply of eligible, attractive, men. At 40, they try trading up to a better model of husband, and find that when the music stops, they are the one without a chair. The desperation becomes almost palpable. I remember one woman I dated briefly early on. I ran into her a couple years later, and her breasts had become massive. She was also underwater in a huge house that she had sunk her inheritance into. She probably should have stayed in the tiny condo that most of the single women here live in. I don’t think that she realized how many guys were chased away by visions of waking up to her mega breasts sticking straight up in bed. But maybe better than if they were down by her waist. Did that too. Best plastic surgeons in AZ are in Scottsdale.; 12/24/20, 9:22 AM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: Are you fucking kidding me? Triggered by “sagging” in some random uninteresting novel. It illustrates intentionally or not that men are wired to be interested in breasts and no matter the condition of them are attention is drawn there, as is this character. He may be projecting the “defeated” thing based on his own marooned state on the couch prior to her breasts swinging into the scene.; 12/24/20, 9:26 AM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: Correction: “are attention” should be “our attention” above. Oops.; 12/24/20, 9:28 AM
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...: The answer to the question she is wondering in the quoted passage used as a title is yes, that is how our minds work. It takes a lot of practice to NOT look at breasts automatically and relentlessly and illustrates the very real struggle we all have to civilize our human nature.; 12/24/20, 9:41 AM
bagoh20 said...: "Her breasts drooped inside it, defeated by age, gravity."

I don't get it either. Was the writer supposed to not mention the obvious that not only men, but women too would notice 9 out of 10 times. Was he supposed to pretend that the tits sometimes win over age nd gravity?

I don't get it, and I'm glad I don't. The truth these days is like a racial slur we are all supposed to avoid saying. The people so prone to discomfort over the truth are the same ones who fully expect you to feel great discomfort in saying it and then to apologize for not lying.; 12/24/20, 9:54 AM
Gahrie said...: I denounce them for suggesting that there are things that can be identified as "men's minds". This suggest that men and women are different.; 12/24/20, 10:13 AM
Mary Beth said...: I don't get it either. Was the writer supposed to not mention the obvious that not only men, but women too would notice 9 out of 10 times

The commenters on reddit thought it would be better to talk about her personality. It's like they think it's a Tinder profile instead of a passage in a book where her personality is told to the reader by the character's words and actions over the length of the book.; 12/24/20, 10:21 AM
effinayright said...: Wanna see how real women regard themselves?

Go over to Bing images, set your SafeSearch settings at Off, and enter "Sexiest Naked Women".

Using that search term and ones like it you will see thousands of women who are shamelessly showing it all off.

NSFW, but a counter to the "all men are beasts, women don't want to be treated as sex objects, and we should be desirable no matter how we look" tropes.

It's the hags and harridans no sensible man would go near who hold these views. I'm thinking Andrea "Mothra" Dworkin here....; 12/24/20, 10:44 AM
Joe Smith said...: Some like 'em saggy, some like 'em perky, and some like 'em everywhere in-between.

Like Steve Martin said, 'There must be 57 tits up there.'

Choose wisely and enjoy...; 12/24/20, 10:51 AM
Sam L. said...: Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Deal, small, one (1) each.; 12/24/20, 10:51 AM
Joe Smith said...: "Looks don't matter, personality does."

I was friends once with the most beautiful woman who ever lived.

Unfortunately, she was also the cruelest.; 12/24/20, 10:53 AM
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...: Mary Beth said...

The commenters on reddit thought it would be better to talk about her personality.

That would have scandalized them even more. I'm with bagoh20, truth is the big enemy any more.; 12/24/20, 11:17 AM
mikee said...: "Fallen Caryatid" by Rodin is a sculptural example of manwritingwomen. So is his "The Old Courtesan." Tell me they are not beautiful, in their own selves. Rodin wrote, "Character is the intense truth of any natural [sight], beautiful or ugly."

Sterne wrote, "There are three epochas in the empire of a French woman.—She is
coquette,—then deist,—then _dévote_: the empire during these is never
lost,—she only changes her subjects when thirty-five years and more have
unpeopled her dominion of the slaves of love, she re-peoples it with
slaves of infidelity,—and then with the slaves of the church."

Think of, say, Shirley MacLaine or Barbra Streisand, who followed this path, exchanging politics for the religious interest of old age.; 12/24/20, 11:20 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: bagoh20 Was he supposed to pretend that the tits sometimes win over age and gravity?

Only the ones you purchase have that ability 😎; 12/24/20, 11:35 AM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: My, some people are tetchy. I just finished (re)reading Sara Paretsky's Burn Marks, and though tec V. I. Warshawski herself is all empowered-yet-sexy feminist, her Aunt Elena, much older and an alcoholic, is another matter. And Zerlina Ramsay (a friend of Aunt Elena's from their burned-down SRO) is also much older, though not a drunk. Paretsky treats their bodies rather like this male author treats Laurie's: droopy breasts, &c. Somehow it never occurred to me that there was anything wrong with this.; 12/24/20, 11:45 AM
Paul Zrimsek said...: Those fiction writers, always describing people. Where will it all end?; 12/24/20, 11:51 AM
PM said...: Wom: I need to talk to you about something.
Man: What is it? I can fix it.; 12/24/20, 11:52 AM
Jupiter said...: Do transwomen have sagging tits?; 12/24/20, 12:00 PM
Skeptical Voter said...: Men get old; they dont (normally) go blind. But men being men, they'll always look. A now deceased friend of mine, then in his early 80s--and married for probably 60 years at the time we spoke observed: "Women's bodies change as they age. They can't help it. Theirr bodies just do change." He was speaking of his wife. The observation is also true of my wife--now my life partner of some 55 plus years.

It's a true statement--that slim hipped flat bellied little vixen you fell in love with in your early 20s isn't there anymore. At least that version of her body isn't. She may have gained weight; if she's had children it's hard to maintain that flat belly. So what--Bozo with your beer fueled belly that has "Dunlopped" over your belt. But the things that probably haven't changed (if you are lucky and made a good choice) are her or your character and personality. Character is content--and really the only content that matters.; 12/24/20, 12:10 PM
Yancey Ward said...: Nothing, at least for me, highlights so sharply the pain of aging as seeing a pretty woman I knew 36 years ago. Yes, men think this way, and I am quite sure women do as well. I am inured to my own creeping decrepitude- it has been like watching grass grow.; 12/24/20, 12:30 PM
stephen cooper said...: In "A Christmas Carol", Ebenezer, accompanied by the Ghost of Christmas Past, watches his relationship with a young woman he cared for vanish in a cloud of misunderstanding and lack of empathy. Soon after, he is visited by one of the other Ghosts of Christmas (there is a Ghost of Christmas Past, a Ghost of Christmas Present, and a Ghost of Christmas Yet to Be). Ebenezer's regret at what he has lost is not diminished by the passage of time.

In Pride and Prejudice, the older couples seem to enjoy each other's company.

(I chose those two as examples because A Christmas Carol and Pride and Prejudice are so well-known).

Billionaire male rock stars and actors who are widowed in late middle age, or are abandoned by their wives in late middle age, usually choose middle aged women, not young women, as the next spouse.

Mormon theology, if I understand it right, considers the dyad between two spouses to be as unique as any individual person, maybe even more unique, and to the extent that this is true, the inner state of any married couple is as generally unknowable to the rest of the world as the inner state of a woman is generally unknowable to a man and vice versa, or as Fred Flintstone used to explain to Wilma "and vicey versey." No novelist can possibly get close to explaining, no matter how many words are used, no matter how many details are described ......

That being said, the relevant Biblical verses (there are hundreds of them) on being a good spouse, on marriage, on aging, and on the dangers of lust are profound on their own, even before you add your favorite brand of philosophical speculation.; 12/24/20, 12:30 PM
Lurker21 said...: In fiction, true feeling and literary convention can be hard to separate. Of course we also have to consider that what's written is just the view of one character - perhaps an unsympathetic one - but you can often trace writing like this back to a literary ancestor. Raymond Carver? Mailer? Hemingway?

Writing can also be a way to raise one's own self esteem. Writers demean characters to feel better about themselves. Misogeny could account for the negative portrayal of women in Roth and Bellow, but gender may not be the main factor. I'm pretty sure Sara Paretsky is taking something out on her characters.; 12/24/20, 12:48 PM
stephen cooper said...: Writers sometimes also claim to have faults they don't have in order to lend something extra to their ability to communicate with others.

I don't know anything about Carver or Mailer but people who knew Hemingway - like Orson Welles - described him as a much friendlier, funny and kind person than he (Hemingway) admitted to being in his autobiographical and semi-autobiographical writings.; 12/24/20, 12:56 PM
Robert Cook said...: "The line that is the focus of the discussion at r/menwritingwomen is 'Her breasts drooped inside it, defeated by age, gravity.'"

This isn't even necessarily an appraisal of the character's sexual attractiveness, but an observation of the character's wracked internal state, as manifested in her changed external state. You know, metaphor, (or synecdoche? metonymy?), anyway, one of those technical thing writers do all the time. MEN can also be described in ways that depict them as "defeated by age, gravity," as, in truth, we all will be eventually.

As to whether men always notice the variable sexual attractiveness of women (or men, as it may be) they encounter, I'm surprised that this reader is naive enough to not have long known that.; 12/24/20, 12:58 PM
Robert Cook said...: BTW, "Defending Jacob" was made into a mini-series that aired just this year and is probably still available for streaming. It was pretty good. It has to do with a prosecuting attorney whose adolescent son is charged and tried for murdering a classmate, and how the events powerfully affect each of the parents. (No, the dad does not act as his son's defense attorney.) I'm guessing the passage in discussion describes the dad looking at the mom. It's also a depiction of the dad's internal state, shown by how he sees his wife during their family ordeal.; 12/24/20, 1:11 PM
MadisonMan said...: What I would ask that complainer:
Why is thinking something women never do?
And why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?

I will say that when I view my wife, I do not see the changes that aging has forced upon her. I see the same person I've seen for many many years. I hope she still sees me as the young adult she married.; 12/24/20, 1:20 PM
Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...: Althouse: 'The line that is the focus of the discussion at r/menwritingwomen is "Her breasts drooped inside it, defeated by age, gravity."'

How about "Pustules of fatty tissue began to appear on the young girl's chest, the slim outline of her ribcage defeated by the onset of puberty."

Do you not recoil at subjective "news" writing such as: "Congress failed to pass the [whatever] legislation." Proper reporting is: Congress CHOSE not to....; 12/24/20, 1:22 PM
Rabel said...: We just have to be patient.

The fembots are improving with every passing day, work on an artificial womb is coming along nicely, and the AI sandwich makers are already in production.

Once they learn that they aren't needed for the survival of the species and lose their leverage there is a chance that they'll eventually develop the capability for rational thought not dominated by emotion.

Not a big chance, just a small one. Keep hope alive.; 12/24/20, 1:22 PM
Fritz said...: tcrosse said...
My Dad's advice was to take a look at the girl's Mom, because that's what you'll end up with.

A very sobering thought indeed.

Check Out Her Mama - Johnny Winter; 12/24/20, 1:29 PM
ALP said...: I suppose if 'womenwritingmen' penned something like: "He padded down the stairs in a old t-shirt and underwear that had seen better days - elastic bursting from the tunnel of fabric like a joyout puppy at the park. His balls swung mercilessly, slapping his inner thighs, hanging lower due to gravity and age...."

All good?; 12/24/20, 1:40 PM
Michael K said...: I made the serious mistake of showing my wife a photo of her kneeling on the bow of my sailboat, wearing a bikini and it was taken 40 years ago. I may never live that down.

This is how bad it was.; 12/24/20, 1:42 PM
gerry said...: Michael K, I'll bet she still has beauty seen in that photo.; 12/24/20, 1:45 PM
walter said...: " I remember one woman I dated briefly early on. I ran into her a couple years later, and her breasts had become massive. She was also underwater in a huge house that she had sunk her inheritance into."
--
Flotation devices..; 12/24/20, 1:58 PM
Sebastian said...: Blogger Skeptical Voter said...
Men get old; they dont (normally) go blind. But men being men, they'll always look . . . It's a true statement--that slim hipped flat bellied little vixen you fell in love with in your early 20s isn't there anymore. At least that version of her body isn't . . . Character is content--and really the only content that matters.

Which is true and fair enough. But "they'll always look" means men's sexual desire generally changes less than the bodies of their female partners, and while character is the only content that matters, it is not only content that matters. Dealt with properly, these two issues can deepen relationships; left unacknowledged, they can mess things up.; 12/24/20, 1:59 PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: As for the general drooping-breasts thing, my own tits are so small that they barely have the wherewithal to droop at all. I haven't so much as worn a bra in decades. This has never particularly bothered me, though.

Lurker21, I don't think Paretsky is necessarily "taking it out" on her characters, except that Elena's alcoholism does give the impression of being drawn from life, as it were. But she's observant enough to notice the obvious. V. I. Warshawski isn't going to get fat -- she's a relentless exerciser -- but Paretsky does show her getting older, and healing more slowly (she gets beaten up once or twice in every book, and how about that for a "men writing topic, huh?). I've kind of dropped out of the series recently -- read a couple more recent ones on Kindle a few years ago, and found them not so interesting as the earlier books. Even in Chicago, apparently, there are only so many scams to run.; 12/24/20, 2:34 PM
The Vault Dweller said...: Isn't this really an example of a man writing a man? What people seem upset about is the imaginary male characters thoughts as he views the imaginary female character. But it is a male writing the male character's thoughts. I will say the description is worded really weirdly. It is odd for a person's thoughts to use words like defeated by gravity and time to describe sagging breasts. Those sound like words that someone spent time crafting to try and sound figurative and poetic. Why would that be the inner monologue to just pop into a character's head?; 12/24/20, 2:38 PM
tim maguire said...: Reading the excerpt, I had no clue what the problem was. The comments are indicating the problem is the guy on the couch noticed that the woman is older than she used to be. Why is that a problem?; 12/24/20, 3:03 PM
J. Farmer said...: "I’ve honestly started wondering if this is just how men’s minds actually work in real life and now instead of being uncomfortable about passages like these, I’m uncomfortable about life."

Yes. For a man to get sex from a woman, he has to have status or power. For a woman to get from a man, she has to have a vagina.

The arrangement has always been women sleeping with only one man and in return the man promising to protect and support her and their children.

Renegotiating the terms of that contract has always been a goal of feminism. Goals constantly frustrated by biology. With the advent of oral contraceptives and legalized abortion, women have gained historically unprecedented power over reproduction. This has given women massive leverage in negotiating more favorable terms.

Generally, ut's a good thing that women have gained the power to negotiate better terms since it reduces exploitation. But we're still charting completely unnavigated waters, and there's a lot of risk out there. That's the price of freedom.; 12/24/20, 3:04 PM
Joe Smith said...: "...my own tits are so small that they barely have the wherewithal to droop at all."

IBTC...not a terrible thing at all : ); 12/24/20, 3:08 PM
stephen cooper said...: Michael K at 1:42 -(a) the woman in the picture you linked to is wearing shorts and a beach shirt, not a bikini and (b) she is very pretty and very photogenic.; 12/24/20, 3:23 PM
FullMoon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/24/20, 4:34 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: At two A.M. I was in the stable, slumped on a pile of hay. I felt marooned, unable to move myself up to the inn, since there was no room, or to fall asleep where I was.
Mary padded down the stairs barefoot, in a tunic and her favorite sash that was now too threadbare for anything but sleeping in. Her breasts drooped inside, swollen from hormones and increased blood flow, pregnancy. Her hair was a mess, her eyes half shut. The sight of her nearly brought me to tears of joy, for from the third step she said, "Joseph, come to the manger. There is nothing more glorious we will see tonight!"; 12/24/20, 5:10 PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: Joe Smith, had to Google IBTC. Weird that I've heard "itty bitty kitty committee" for many years, but not thought of that variant (which is probably the original, come to think of it).

Like I said, they're so not-a-problem for me that I think of them only once every two years, when I have the obligatory over-50 mammogram. At which point they become, briefly, a pain in the ass, if that's not mixing anatomical metaphors . . .; 12/24/20, 5:11 PM
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...: Ingachuck'stoothlessARM, bravo! (Or brava! as the case may be.) Way to put things in their right proportion. (OK, the manger isn't going to be upstairs, but otherwise . . .); 12/24/20, 5:15 PM
Joe Smith said...: "Like I said, they're so not-a-problem for me that I think of them only once every two years..."

As a wise man once said, 'More than a mouthful is a waste.'

: ); 12/24/20, 5:16 PM
Michael K said...: Blogger stephen cooper said...
Michael K at 1:42 -(a) the woman in the picture you linked to is wearing shorts and a beach shirt, not a bikini and (b) she is very pretty and very photogenic.

I had forgotten that she was wearing that outfit that day. She still has those shorts and they still fit her. I guess the Bikini day was the movie that I did.; 12/24/20, 5:53 PM
stephen cooper said...: you are a lucky guy, Michael K.; 12/24/20, 5:58 PM
Marcus Bressler said...: The Hostess: The line that is the focus of the discussion at r/menwritingwomen is "Her breasts drooped inside it, defeated by age, gravity."

So? Nothing wrong with that line; in fact, it's not bad at all. So, here:

"His balls hung low, encased in a scrotum that swung too and fro as he walked, naked, into the bedroom. Was he always so deformed, she wondered, or does age do that to a man? She had never been with a man north of 50 so her experience in scrotal length was lacking. It was then that she made the decision not to get on top of him during the act so as not to put those nuggets at risk.
"Tomorrow, she'd call her mother and ask her about such things."

FIFY. Now the men can bitch about stupid things.

THEOLDMAN; 12/24/20, 6:13 PM
Marcus Bressler said...: The Hostess: Landay is a lawyer turned novelist. He went to Yale undergrad and Boston Law School.

Me: Is he any smarter than Mira Sorvino and what is this obsession with noting educational backgrounds over the past two days? Bet you make a certain STUPID as fuck commenter happy with that as he is ignorant of the difference between SMART and PRESUMED EDUCATED.

THEOLDMAN

(Not really an obsession, just a quirk I think. Capt. Quirk. Happy Christmas Eve. Made Shrimp Creole over rice for the workplace crew today. It was a hit, just sauce and some rice left over); 12/24/20, 6:19 PM
Marcus Bressler said...: I'm not a titty man, but I do enjoy a nice pair. This past summer, during the FWB's 8 1/2 week visit (as opposed, I guess, to a 9 1/2 week visit, which might have ended worse) I noticed her tiddies were sagging a little more, but I could attribute that to her losing weight. I don't like saggy tiddies which is why I no longer date women over 30. Well, that and a thousand other reasons.

THEOLDMAN

She wants to come back from Cali by the New Year to live with me again. Have to weigh the positives and negatives. She needs to make her case after the debacle of Summer 2020.; 12/24/20, 6:34 PM
Anonymous said...: The most beautiful woman in the world, is the one in your bed.; 12/24/20, 6:37 PM
Marcus Bressler said...: tcrosse said...
My Dad's advice was to take a look at the girl's Mom, because that's what you'll end up with.

A very sobering thought indeed.

Me: There is a very funny SNL skit from decades past where (I think a man and his fiancee have the man's pal over for dinner or drinks or something) the man's pal is cautioning him about making a rash decision about getting married. The man points to his prospective wife and mentions her looks and figure. The man's pal says yeah but what's she gonna look like in 20 years? At that point, the doorbell rings and the fiancee says oh that must be my mom, she was coming over the drop off something. The men answer the door, thinking this is what the fiancee will look like in 20 years. The door is opened and the mother HAS TO TURN SIDEWAYS to fit through the door because her ass is six feet wide.

THEOLDMAN
Of my three former wives, only the middle one aged better than her mom at a similar age.; 12/24/20, 6:44 PM
Marcus Bressler said...: "...my own tits are so small that they barely have the wherewithal to droop at all."

This is why I prefer small-breasted women to those more endowed. Sexy then, sexy now.

THEOLDMAN; 12/24/20, 6:47 PM
effinayright said...: Michelle Dulak Thomson said...
As for the general drooping-breasts thing, my own tits are so small that they barely have the wherewithal to droop at all.
*********

We used to call them "acorns on an ironing board".; 12/24/20, 7:04 PM
hugh42 said...: who would expect people to be constantly reasonable? who would expect people to evaluate the future and constantly save money from a young age? who would expect people to grasp they can't recreate a wonderful experience from 50 years ago just because they prefer it? we should treasure the times past. we should treasure the tits seen etc. get on with it.; 12/24/20, 7:38 PM
hugh42 said...: who would expect people to be constantly reasonable? who would expect people to evaluate the future and constantly save money from a young age? who would expect people to grasp they can't recreate a wonderful experience from 50 years ago just because they prefer it? we should treasure the times past. we should treasure the tits seen etc. get on with it.; 12/24/20, 7:40 PM
Joe Smith said...: "The most beautiful woman in the world, is the one in your bed."

Love the one you're with...; 12/24/20, 9:33 PM
Michael K said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/24/20, 11:51 PM
Zach said...: I don't get it. This isn't a man writing a woman, it's a man, writing a man, observing a woman. In the scene, the both the man and the woman are worn out, and the woman is dressed accordingly.

What's problematic about this scene? Pajamas and a worn out t-shirt? Messy hair? Droopy breasts? These are all details supporting the mood of "worn out."

Or maybe it's that the man is brought to tears? But in in context, he isn't being brought to tears by her appearance, but by the appearance of his wife at a hard time -- he has presumably seen her dressed this way many times without crying, since it's stereotypical bed wear.; 12/25/20, 1:28 PM
JAORE said...: My wife will be 70 in a couple of months. She's had three children.

So, no, she does not look like the pixie beauty I married.

But I still watch when she enters the room. She's uncomfortable (sometimes!) when I stare at her when she exits the shower.

She is so very much more than her physical appearance. Perhaps that is why I still find it so alluring.; 12/25/20, 3:06 PM
Anonymous said...: The most beautiful woman in the world, is the one in your bed. That soul that animates the body generates the heat when you lie next to her. The body wears out in the fullness of time, but that heat... is what we fell in love with. And they with us.; 12/25/20, 8:44 PM
Anna Hernandez said...: Men noticing boobs and commenting on them is the problem people are having. I don't see anyone complaining about the character noticing her messy hair.; 12/26/20, 6:06 AM
stlcdr said...: Michael K said...

...

I had forgotten that she was wearing that outfit that day. She still has those shorts and they still fit her. I guess the Bikini day was the movie that I did.

12/24/20, 5:53 PMProbably the best explanation of men, more than anything.; 12/26/20, 8:10 AM