"It seemed to offer a firsthand report, both personal and analytical, on the condition of the white American working class/ And while the book [by J.D. Vance] didn’t really explain the election... it did venture a hypothesis about how that family and others like it encountered such persistent household dysfunction and economic distress.... He suggests that the same traits that make his people distinctive — suspicion of outsiders, resistance to authority, devotion to kin, eagerness to fight — make it hard for them to thrive in modern American society.... The film is a chronicle of addiction entwined with a bootstrapper’s tale.... The Vances are presented as a representative family, but what exactly do they represent? A class? A culture? A place? A history? The louder they yell, the less you understand — about them or the world they inhabit. The strange stew of melodrama, didacticism and inadvertent camp that [director Ron 'Opie' Howard] serves up isn’t the result of a failure of taste or sensitivity. If anything, 'Hillbilly Elegy' is too tasteful, too sensitive for its own good, studiously unwilling to be as wild or provocative as its characters. Such tact is in keeping with the moral of its story, which is that success in America means growing up to be less interesting than your parents or grandparents."
I watched the trailer and suffered tremendously from the music, which is emphatically not hillbilly music:
I mean, the point seems to be that other people are unsophisticated, and that swelling, heavy-handed soundtrack is as unsophisticated as you can possibly get. And how about that ham acting? I don't know about the real-life people Vance wrote about in his best-seller, but these Hollywood folk are awfully backward!
And I tried to read his book. I meant to get back to it, but I never got past page 40:
Destroying store merchandise and threatening a sales clerk were normal to Mamaw and Papaw: That’s what Scots-Irish Appalachians do when people mess with your kid. “What I mean is that they were united, they were getting along with each other,” Uncle Jimmy conceded when I later pressed him. “But yeah, like everyone else in our family, they could go from zero to murderous in a fucking heartbeat.”
That’s what Scots-Irish Appalachians do... ? I can get by without getting that sort of thing hammered into my head a thousand times.
Either way you posted anecdotal drivel from deep in the throws of confirmation bias.
If I may ask, which of the five points I made in that comment do you take such issue with?
Unknown said...
@Fernandinande:
IOW, just about 50% and 65% of the national average, as mentioned above.
This is an objective fact.
(1) There is social pathology outside of crime.
So? There is social pathology in just about everything we do. We are barely evolved apes.
(2) It is unsurprising that rural areas with low popuation density will have less criminal activity than denser urban areas.
Exactly what Fernandinande stated. I have to copy paste his name. It is somehow impossible for me to remember the letters and type it.
(3) There is a huge racial gradient to crime, so I am not sure how those numbers would look if you controlled for race and only looked at crimes committed by whites
What is the point of even making this a bullet point? It doesn't support your argument. It doesn't support his argument. It runs along the same lines as attacking people for being Homosexual. Seems gratuitous.
(4) In more rural areas, it is not uncommon for a crime to occur (e.g. a brawl at the local watering hole) that does not get reported to the police and thus not captured in crime stats.
This point in particular is the point that got my goat. It is just pure subjective poop. As if all the crimes in cities gets reported? !!!
(5) For an examination of a similar phenomenon but in a different context (northern vs southern Italy), see Edward Banfield's The Moral Basis of a Backward Society. Clannishness is a big component.
Why is this book important? I have a lot of books on the list. Make your point and use the book as a reference link. Please.
I think maybe -- and I'm not sure of this, so correct me (anyone) if I'm wrong -- but I think the "Scots-Irish" designation is applied to too many people, many if not most of whom are not Scots-Irish per se. The latter were Lowland Scots, Presbyterians, from southwest and southeast Scotland and the Border Marches (home of the Border Reivers). Many were nominally English who lived on the English side of the border (e.g., in Northumbria).Their native tongue, "Scots" or "Scottish, was NOT a Gaelic language; it was a Germanic language closely related to Old English (Anglo-Saxon). They were brought to Northern Ireland starting in the early 1600s by wealthy aristocrats who owned title to much land in Ulster. They became the so-called Planters, the Ulster Scots, and they forcibly displaced MY ancestors, Catholic Gaelic Irish mainly (but also Church of Ireland Norman-Irish, who were allied with the Catholic) from their lands. My Irish grandmother made of point of inculcating a deep resentment of the Scot-Irish and their Orange Presbyterian Ways, and even today hard-core Green Irish Nationalists bristle at the mere mention of the term "Scots-Irish": they believe the "Irish" part should be stricken.
These "real" Scots-Irish were for the most part not part of the vast migration of Irish to America. They had no reason to leave Ulster, and for the most part they didn't.
The people usually, I think, referred to in America as Scots-Irish are mainly people of Highland Scottish origin who driven from their lands by a combination of circumstances including most especially the Highland Clearances promulgated by the English and the destruction of the cattle-based clan system that issued therefrom. The Highland Scots were Catholic and spoke Gaelic-Scots. The Battle of Culloden in 1745 marked the death knell of the clan system and the traditional Highland way of life; the Clearances started five years later, setting in motion a diaspora that would rival that of the Irish a century later.
So? There is social pathology in just about everything we do.
The sentence I wrote, to which Fernandinande replied, was: "For a look at the pathological side of Appalachian values, watch the documentary The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia."
I wasn't making a claim about criminality. So pointing out the crime rate difference between Boone County, WV and the national average had nothing to do with what I was talking about. That was the point of my reply.
They were brought to Northern Ireland starting in the early 1600s by wealthy aristocrats who owned title to much land in Ulster. They became the so-called Planters, the Ulster Scots
This would describe some of my ancestors, roughcoat. But I'd always assumed it was Cromwell who urged their settlement there, part of his de-Catholicization of Ireland.
These "real" Scots-Irish were for the most part not part of the vast migration of Irish to America. They had no reason to leave Ulster, and for the most part they didn't.
These were my great-grandparents, who left County Londonderry, or Derry if you prefer, for Canada.
You are correct, roughcoat, that the later migration of Irish to America were Catholics, not Presbyterians. My Scots-Irish ancestor, a staunch Presbyterian of Scottish extraction, came from County Armagh in the year 1700. He was a victim of 'younger son syndrome', e.g., he had no fortune so came to seek it here. He was my latest ancestor to arrive on American shores and the only one from Ireland [Ulster].
Thanks for your comments. Interesting stuff. Cromwell invaded Ireland in 1649. By 1653 he had more or less conquered Ireland, at least in territorial terms -- nobody ever really conquers the Irish. But Cromwell killed a lot of them, sure. He waged what amounted to a genocidal war against the Catholic Irish, exhorting his troops to "send them to hell or Connaught." His armies committed mass murder and other atrocities on a scale, and with a fury and ferocity, that would have won the applause and admiration of Nazi Einsatzgruppen. By 1649 when Cromwell landed in Ireland the Ulster-Scots were pretty well established in the North and were not at all displeased with the grim fate that befell the Catholic Irish. I suspect some (many?) still feel that way.
My Irish forebears were Gaelic Catholic and Norman Church of Ireland of Protestants: both were "Green" and most emphatically NOT "Orange." My Catholic great-grandmother Billy Burke was from Ulster, but just where exactly we do not know (yet). My great-grandmother Lizzie Luttrell was a Church of Ireland girl from Dublin, the youngest of ten children, who met and married my grandfather in an Irish "enclave" in Decatur, Illinois, sometime after the Civil War. Both were "Famine Irish." Billy joined the Union Army at age 16, lying about his age to get in. He was a cavalry trooper in a Decatur volunteer regiment. Three of Lizzie's older brothers also enlisted in Decatur volunteer regiments, serving under Grant and Sherman and Thomas. One was KIA at Chickamauga, one died of disease at about the same time and place, and a third was badly wounded and suffered from the ill-effects of injury for the rest of his life.
I was brought up to hate Cromwell, dislike the English, and regard with disdain Orange Presbyterian Scots-Irish.
Armagh, of course, was Ulster-Scots territory ... at least in the northern part of the county. On the other hand, South Armagh was, during the Troubles, "bandit country," effectively ruled by the Provos, a no-go zone for the Brits except by helicopter insertion. I visited Crossmaglen during the Troubles. I was treated like a visiting dignitary, being from Chicago and all. Very stimulating for a young man such as myself.
I dunno if South Armagh is still a hotbed for Republican sentiment. I haven't visited Ireland in a long time. My understanding is, that it has all changed, and for the better.
Well, I can't say I blame you, roughcoat. ;-) But I must confess that Cromwell has been somewhat of a hero of mine. Sorry. :-( But you are probably right about my Ulster Scots being there before Cromwell's invasion. I guess I'd just assumed he had something to do with their being there. Their name was Steele, BTW. Another Scottish ancestor named MacCoone was sent to the American colonies in the 1600's as a prisoner of the British. I can't hate the British, though, as most of the rest of my ancestors were Brits as well as my dear late husband. :-)
Honestly, I like the English, and I really liked England the two times I visited. And, no kidding, one of my very best actual true-blue friends was the renown and very English military historian Ned Willmott, who sadly passed away earlier this year. That was a blow. And it is one of my lifelong bucket-list dreams to visit the site of the Battle of Hastings. Talk about heroes. Harold Godwinson, Earl of Wessex and rightful king of England, bless his Anglo-Saxon heart, is one of mine.
And of course for the way they stood up to the Germans in two world wars: eternal glory to them.
You've convinced me, roughcoat. ;-) They were, at least, a tough and resolute breed when they got behind a cause. To see what England has become today would probably make my husband turn in his grave. [If he were in a grave. He's not. He's in a decorative wooden cremains box in my living room.]
Rough, I mentioned Ned Willmott a few days back-- I hadn't known of his death myself until recently--and am still not sure of the cause. We weren't friends but our paths crossed when he was here as a professor and later as a visitor. His The Great Crusade is about the best single-volume WWII book I can recall, and I've been able to read a bit of his co-authored (Bennett? Barrett?) work on Clausewitz recently online.
My German-Swiss/British Isles - Italian (by genes, she's a GRITS) wife has visited England and Scotland many times, and is always bugging me to go. I've studied the history in school and on my own, but don't really know much about the precise origins of my lines and am only mildly curious about them.
Cromwell the GBM, a really fascinating figure and period--you can tell they left a mark! Of course the Isles deserve a lot of travel, but at my age they are not high on the list.
The only historical animosity in my family was against Damnyankees, and except for the most bitter oldsters and some loons it was decreasing even in the 60s. My Kraut newcomer grandparents probably gave the ACWABAWS little to no thought, though their kids born in the USA in the 20s were proud Southrons.
Amy Clampitt called Europe "that hodgepodge of ancestral calamity." But we're all testimony to the beneficial effects of the mixing and stirring (forget melting) bowl known as the US of A. Bless our hearts.
Narr All my grudges are personal, as befits a gentleman and scholar
The movie was better than I expected. There were no homosexuals portrayed in the movie, no blacks played important roles, Trump had not been elected so he wasn't bashed, in fact, no politics were discussed at all. There were just a few instances when young J.D. was interested in some political stuff on TV. The fact that none of the cultural bells were rung is at least minus 60 points on Rotten Tomatoes ratings. I've been looking at those ratings and seen just about every noteworthy movie for scores of years and that is not an exaggeration. Having said all that, if you are still reading the New York Times then you probably will not get much out of it. It's over your head. Before I got off Facebook, and I'm off for good, I saw a FB memory from 2008 when I announced that I had canceled my subscription to the NYTimes after many years due to refusing to submit myself to its blatant cultural and political bias any longer. I feel pretty confident in saying that anyone still slogging through that bullshit will not be able to get much out of the book or the movie.
This is a testimony that I will tell everyone to hear. i have been married for 4 years and on the fifth year of my marriage, another woman had a spell to take my lover away from me and my husband left me and the kids and we have suffered for 2 years until i meant a post where this man Dr.Wealthy have helped someone and i decided to give him a try to help me bring my love Husband home and believe me i just send my picture to him and that of my husband and after 48 hours as he have told me, i saw a car drove into the house and behold it was my husband and he have come to me and the kids and that is why i am happy to make everyone of you in similar issues to meet with this man and have your lover back to your self His email: wealthylovespell@gmail.com or you can also contact him or whatsapp him on this +2348105150446..... thank so much Dr.Wealthy. ...
Farmer has demonstrated nothing that would make a reasonable person think he would be anything other than a good parent." One of those things in life that even when you're ready for it, you're not ready for it. But you'll find that out. just don't make the same mistakes your parents made with you and you'll be fine.
Churchy LaFemme: said... "The largest ethnic minority in America are people of German ancestry, but you don't see or read many movies or novels that are explicitly about their experiences here. Who was the best German general of WWII? Eisenhower.
Reminds me of a post-war interview with Admiral Nimitz. A reporter was asking him about the Japanese and German people, and noted that ironically many of the top US military leaders (Eisenhower, Nimitz) were of German ancestry themselves.
Nimitz replied, "What do I think about German people? First, they make the very best Americans. Second, they make the very worst Germans."
Mockturtle: pardon the late comment but Lamb in His Bosom, by Caroline Miller, is astonishing and forgotten.
My first neighborhood in Atlanta was Cabbagetown. Quite a history. My second was once called Germantown because it was the internment camp for the women and children of the Germans imprisoned in the federal prison up the street. Many nearly starved during WWI. I found German-language newspapers when I pulled out walls, used for insulation.
Somehow we don't ever talk about interring German-descent Americans.
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230 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 230 of 230@Jupiter:
What if I told you my wife and I were thinking about buying a slave?
I'd do what I've been doing all day: laugh at you.
J. Farmer said...
Either way you posted anecdotal drivel from deep in the throws of confirmation bias.
If I may ask, which of the five points I made in that comment do you take such issue with?
Unknown said...
@Fernandinande:
IOW, just about 50% and 65% of the national average, as mentioned above.
This is an objective fact.
(1) There is social pathology outside of crime.
So? There is social pathology in just about everything we do. We are barely evolved apes.
(2) It is unsurprising that rural areas with low popuation density will have less criminal activity than denser urban areas.
Exactly what Fernandinande stated. I have to copy paste his name. It is somehow impossible for me to remember the letters and type it.
(3) There is a huge racial gradient to crime, so I am not sure how those numbers would look if you controlled for race and only looked at crimes committed by whites
What is the point of even making this a bullet point? It doesn't support your argument. It doesn't support his argument. It runs along the same lines as attacking people for being Homosexual. Seems gratuitous.
(4) In more rural areas, it is not uncommon for a crime to occur (e.g. a brawl at the local watering hole) that does not get reported to the police and thus not captured in crime stats.
This point in particular is the point that got my goat. It is just pure subjective poop. As if all the crimes in cities gets reported? !!!
(5) For an examination of a similar phenomenon but in a different context (northern vs southern Italy), see Edward Banfield's The Moral Basis of a Backward Society. Clannishness is a big component.
Why is this book important? I have a lot of books on the list. Make your point and use the book as a reference link. Please.
Changing the subject:
I think maybe -- and I'm not sure of this, so correct me (anyone) if I'm wrong -- but I think the "Scots-Irish" designation is applied to too many people, many if not most of whom are not Scots-Irish per se. The latter were Lowland Scots, Presbyterians, from southwest and southeast Scotland and the Border Marches (home of the Border Reivers). Many were nominally English who lived on the English side of the border (e.g., in Northumbria).Their native tongue, "Scots" or "Scottish, was NOT a Gaelic language; it was a Germanic language closely related to Old English (Anglo-Saxon). They were brought to Northern Ireland starting in the early 1600s by wealthy aristocrats who owned title to much land in Ulster. They became the so-called Planters, the Ulster Scots, and they forcibly displaced MY ancestors, Catholic Gaelic Irish mainly (but also Church of Ireland Norman-Irish, who were allied with the Catholic) from their lands. My Irish grandmother made of point of inculcating a deep resentment of the Scot-Irish and their Orange Presbyterian Ways, and even today hard-core Green Irish Nationalists bristle at the mere mention of the term "Scots-Irish": they believe the "Irish" part should be stricken.
These "real" Scots-Irish were for the most part not part of the vast migration of Irish to America. They had no reason to leave Ulster, and for the most part they didn't.
The people usually, I think, referred to in America as Scots-Irish are mainly people of Highland Scottish origin who driven from their lands by a combination of circumstances including most especially the Highland Clearances promulgated by the English and the destruction of the cattle-based clan system that issued therefrom. The Highland Scots were Catholic and spoke Gaelic-Scots. The Battle of Culloden in 1745 marked the death knell of the clan system and the traditional Highland way of life; the Clearances started five years later, setting in motion a diaspora that would rival that of the Irish a century later.
Achilles:
So? There is social pathology in just about everything we do.
The sentence I wrote, to which Fernandinande replied, was: "For a look at the pathological side of Appalachian values, watch the documentary The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia."
I wasn't making a claim about criminality. So pointing out the crime rate difference between Boone County, WV and the national average had nothing to do with what I was talking about. That was the point of my reply.
They were brought to Northern Ireland starting in the early 1600s by wealthy aristocrats who owned title to much land in Ulster. They became the so-called Planters, the Ulster Scots
This would describe some of my ancestors, roughcoat. But I'd always assumed it was Cromwell who urged their settlement there, part of his de-Catholicization of Ireland.
These "real" Scots-Irish were for the most part not part of the vast migration of Irish to America. They had no reason to leave Ulster, and for the most part they didn't.
These were my great-grandparents, who left County Londonderry, or Derry if you prefer, for Canada.
Two excellent, but heart-rending, old novels about life in pre-WWII Appalachia are, The Dollmaker and Hunter's Horn, both by Harriette Arnow.
You are correct, roughcoat, that the later migration of Irish to America were Catholics, not Presbyterians. My Scots-Irish ancestor, a staunch Presbyterian of Scottish extraction, came from County Armagh in the year 1700. He was a victim of 'younger son syndrome', e.g., he had no fortune so came to seek it here. He was my latest ancestor to arrive on American shores and the only one from Ireland [Ulster].
Roughcoat's summary is pretty good.
Scot-Scots, as it were, played an outsized role in Great Britain and the so-called second British Empire, beginning in the 1770s.
G M Fraser is good on the Border Reivers (and so much else).
Narr
Like Elspeth
Mockturtle:
Thanks for your comments. Interesting stuff. Cromwell invaded Ireland in 1649. By 1653 he had more or less conquered Ireland, at least in territorial terms -- nobody ever really conquers the Irish. But Cromwell killed a lot of them, sure. He waged what amounted to a genocidal war against the Catholic Irish, exhorting his troops to "send them to hell or Connaught." His armies committed mass murder and other atrocities on a scale, and with a fury and ferocity, that would have won the applause and admiration of Nazi Einsatzgruppen. By 1649 when Cromwell landed in Ireland the Ulster-Scots were pretty well established in the North and were not at all displeased with the grim fate that befell the Catholic Irish. I suspect some (many?) still feel that way.
My Irish forebears were Gaelic Catholic and Norman Church of Ireland of Protestants: both were "Green" and most emphatically NOT "Orange." My Catholic great-grandmother Billy Burke was from Ulster, but just where exactly we do not know (yet). My great-grandmother Lizzie Luttrell was a Church of Ireland girl from Dublin, the youngest of ten children, who met and married my grandfather in an Irish "enclave" in Decatur, Illinois, sometime after the Civil War. Both were "Famine Irish." Billy joined the Union Army at age 16, lying about his age to get in. He was a cavalry trooper in a Decatur volunteer regiment. Three of Lizzie's older brothers also enlisted in Decatur volunteer regiments, serving under Grant and Sherman and Thomas. One was KIA at Chickamauga, one died of disease at about the same time and place, and a third was badly wounded and suffered from the ill-effects of injury for the rest of his life.
I was brought up to hate Cromwell, dislike the English, and regard with disdain Orange Presbyterian Scots-Irish.
Mockturtle:
Armagh, of course, was Ulster-Scots territory ... at least in the northern part of the county. On the other hand, South Armagh was, during the Troubles, "bandit country," effectively ruled by the Provos, a no-go zone for the Brits except by helicopter insertion. I visited Crossmaglen during the Troubles. I was treated like a visiting dignitary, being from Chicago and all. Very stimulating for a young man such as myself.
I dunno if South Armagh is still a hotbed for Republican sentiment. I haven't visited Ireland in a long time. My understanding is, that it has all changed, and for the better.
Well, I can't say I blame you, roughcoat. ;-) But I must confess that Cromwell has been somewhat of a hero of mine. Sorry. :-( But you are probably right about my Ulster Scots being there before Cromwell's invasion. I guess I'd just assumed he had something to do with their being there. Their name was Steele, BTW. Another Scottish ancestor named MacCoone was sent to the American colonies in the 1600's as a prisoner of the British. I can't hate the British, though, as most of the rest of my ancestors were Brits as well as my dear late husband. :-)
tcrosse:
Makes sense. Canada was the preferred destination for Presbyterian (and Loyalist) Scots-Irish who were of a mind to immigrate to North America.
P.S., I prefer "Derry," naturally.
mockturtle:
Oh, gosh, I don't hate the English! I was raised to dislike them, but that's all in my past.
Mostly.
As for Cromwell: the less said the better, if you get my drift.
Sure. ;-)
mockturtle:
You know about "Irish Alzehimer's"? It's where you forget everything but the grudges.
Heh heh.
Honestly, I like the English, and I really liked England the two times I visited. And, no kidding, one of my very best actual true-blue friends was the renown and very English military historian Ned Willmott, who sadly passed away earlier this year. That was a blow. And it is one of my lifelong bucket-list dreams to visit the site of the Battle of Hastings. Talk about heroes. Harold Godwinson, Earl of Wessex and rightful king of England, bless his Anglo-Saxon heart, is one of mine.
And of course for the way they stood up to the Germans in two world wars: eternal glory to them.
You've convinced me, roughcoat. ;-) They were, at least, a tough and resolute breed when they got behind a cause. To see what England has become today would probably make my husband turn in his grave. [If he were in a grave. He's not. He's in a decorative wooden cremains box in my living room.]
Funny you should mention grudges, though. My Scots-Irish-descendant mother never let go of one. Fortunately, I didn't inherit that particular gene.
Rough, I mentioned Ned Willmott a few days back-- I hadn't known of his death myself until recently--and am still not sure of the cause. We weren't friends but our paths crossed when he was here as a professor and later as a visitor. His The Great Crusade is about the best single-volume WWII book I can recall, and I've been able to read a bit of his co-authored (Bennett? Barrett?) work on Clausewitz recently online.
My German-Swiss/British Isles - Italian (by genes, she's a GRITS) wife has visited England and Scotland many times, and is always bugging me to go. I've studied the history in school and on my own, but don't really know much about the precise origins of my lines and am only mildly curious about them.
Cromwell the GBM, a really fascinating figure and period--you can tell they left a mark!
Of course the Isles deserve a lot of travel, but at my age they are not high on the list.
The only historical animosity in my family was against Damnyankees, and except for the most bitter oldsters and some loons it was decreasing even in the 60s. My Kraut newcomer grandparents probably gave the ACWABAWS little to no thought, though their kids born in the USA in the 20s were proud Southrons.
Amy Clampitt called Europe "that hodgepodge of ancestral calamity." But we're all testimony to the beneficial effects of the mixing and stirring (forget melting) bowl known as the US of A. Bless our hearts.
Narr
All my grudges are personal, as befits a gentleman and scholar
The movie was better than I expected. There were no homosexuals portrayed in the movie, no blacks played important roles, Trump had not been elected so he wasn't bashed, in fact, no politics were discussed at all. There were just a few instances when young J.D. was interested in some political stuff on TV. The fact that none of the cultural bells were rung is at least minus 60 points on Rotten Tomatoes ratings. I've been looking at those ratings and seen just about every noteworthy movie for scores of years and that is not an exaggeration. Having said all that, if you are still reading the New York Times then you probably will not get much out of it. It's over your head. Before I got off Facebook, and I'm off for good, I saw a FB memory from 2008 when I announced that I had canceled my subscription to the NYTimes after many years due to refusing to submit myself to its blatant cultural and political bias any longer. I feel pretty confident in saying that anyone still slogging through that bullshit will not be able to get much out of the book or the movie.
Too bad you canceled your subscription and so didn't see the favorable treatment of the book in the NY Times.
This is a testimony that I will tell everyone to hear. i have been married for 4 years and on the fifth year of my marriage, another woman had a spell to take my lover away from me and my husband left me and the kids and we have suffered for 2 years until i meant a post where this man Dr.Wealthy have helped someone and i decided to give him a try to help me bring my love Husband home and believe me i just send my picture to him and that of my husband and after 48 hours as he have told me, i saw a car drove into the house and behold it was my husband and he have come to me and the kids and that is why i am happy to make everyone of you in similar issues to meet with this man and have your lover back to your self His email: wealthylovespell@gmail.com or you can also contact him or whatsapp him on this +2348105150446..... thank so much Dr.Wealthy. ...
@Achilles:
Farmer has demonstrated nothing that would make a reasonable person think he would be anything other than a good parent."
One of those things in life that even when you're ready for it, you're not ready for it. But you'll find that out. just don't make the same mistakes your parents made with you and you'll be fine.
They fuck you up, your mum and dad,
They may not mean to, but they do.
They give you all the faults they had,
And add some extra just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn,
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern,
And half at one another's throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.
---P. Larkin, High Windows
Narr
Good luck Farmer.
"Liberals" and other State-shtuppers must hate that "resistance to authority" thing.
Churchy LaFemme: said... "The largest ethnic minority in America are people of German ancestry, but you don't see or read many movies or novels that are explicitly about their experiences here. Who was the best German general of WWII? Eisenhower.
Reminds me of a post-war interview with Admiral Nimitz. A reporter was asking him about the Japanese and German people, and noted that ironically many of the top US military leaders (Eisenhower, Nimitz) were of German ancestry themselves.
Nimitz replied, "What do I think about German people? First, they make the very best Americans. Second, they make the very worst Germans."
He summed it up quite well, IMHO.
Mockturtle: pardon the late comment but Lamb in His Bosom, by Caroline Miller, is astonishing and forgotten.
My first neighborhood in Atlanta was Cabbagetown. Quite a history. My second was once called Germantown because it was the internment camp for the women and children of the Germans imprisoned in the federal prison up the street. Many nearly starved during WWI. I found German-language newspapers when I pulled out walls, used for insulation.
Somehow we don't ever talk about interring German-descent Americans.
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