I'd avoided "The Crown," but in the last 2 weeks, I've watched the first 7 episodes of Season 4. After seeing the first 3 episodes, I subscribed to Netflix, something I'd been avoiding for years. I'm now a Netflix person, and I find it quite mesmerizing. I'll finally be able to cancel the cable service — which is so much more expensive and which I wasn't watching at all.
Anyway... historical fiction. What do you expect? You've got to criticize the inaccuracies but also realize that this is the way it's done. It's a much bigger problem that journalism is inaccurate and unprofessional. But it's completely professional for television and movie dramas to twist characters and events to make things exciting and interesting. How else can you do it?
I liked Junor's statement — "the mannerisms are perfect. But it is fiction, and it is very destructive." The "perfect" mannerisms — how can the be "perfect" and yet fictional? — belong especially to the Charles character. Are they "destructive" because they are true or "destructive" because they are false?
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If The Crown was terribly friendly to Thatcher, they'd run a serious risk of losing their liberal audience in Britain. Conservatives aren't happy with her portrayal. I'm sure Netflix has assessed the risk involved.
To me, the difference between Saint Diana of Purity and her actual lifestyle is night and day. You couldn't do less and expect to keep most of your female audience, even among people who are royalist fanatics. This plus the treatment of Charles as some hybrid of King Edward VIII and Skeletor is why Charles will never, ever be king of Britain. Bank on it.
Next they'll be telling us Victoria had a thing for her first PM.
So the difference between “The Crown” and the “news” on ABCBSNBCNN is?
I suppose if a reality show can make a man president a streaming series can make one man king over another.
"If The Crown was terribly friendly to Thatcher..."
I don't think "The Crown" is "friendly" to anybody. There's good and bad in the Thatcher character. I don't like this political lens on the show. It's debased.
“Are they "destructive" because they are true or "destructive" because they are false?”
True and false don’t matter. They are destructive because they sow discord. Creatively destructive.
Screenwriters can read people's minds, just like WaPo reporters. And the more they dislike the person they're writing about, the better they are at mind-reading.
Well whatever Netflix is profiting heavily from all of this negative press about how inaccurate the crown is. People don't seem to understand that it's art and art is artificial it's abstract it's stories it's not real.
I hear that MacBeth is pretty pissed off about how he was portrayed too. Don’t get people here started on Richard III.
People don't.
"...how can the be "perfect" and yet fictional?"
Because they're perfect as television?
"Are they "destructive" because they are true or "destructive" because they are false?"
Neither. The destruction feared is that historical fiction will become actual history in the minds of most viewers - not whether or not this or that mannerism is true or false.
But I still won't watch Oliver Stone.
I'd avoided "The Crown," but in the last 2 weeks, I've watched the first 7 episodes of Season 4. After seeing the first 3 episodes, I subscribed to Netflix, something I'd been avoiding for years. I'm now a Netflix person, and I find it quite mesmerizing. I'll finally be able to cancel the cable service — which is so much more expensive and which I wasn't watching at all.
No "we?" Does Meade watch cable or Netflix?
If you go by the movies Nixon started the Viet Nam War, not ended it. I saw one movie that happened in Johnson’s time, and instead of naming Johnson, they referred to “the administration” which was sure a clumsy turn of phrase. How many times in a movie have you heard what all of us alive remember as the main chant “Hey! Hey! LBJ! How many kids did you kill today!”
Washed down the memory hole. Nixon, who only sought peace, not just in Viet Nam but in ratcheting down tensions with the Soviets and the ChiComs was run out of office by the same FBI that tried to do the same to Trump, and may have succeeded.
They're right.
Our great grandchildren will think Dan Rather looked like Robert Redford.
The treatment of Thatcher was pretty bad. You would never know from watching that she turned “The Sick Man of Europe” around.
How many times in a movie have you heard what all of us alive remember as the main chant “Hey! Hey! LBJ! How many kids did you kill today!”
Forrest Gump. "It's just this war and that lying son of a bitch Johnson!"
The cat in the hat, who only sought order ....
Do we now admit non-fiction is actually more fictional than fiction because we believe it actually happened?
Are they "destructive" because they are true or "destructive" because they are false?
Jesus, Ann. That is perfect! You might have made a killer trial lawyer, if you can do that on your feet.
I’ve had a subscription to Netflix for years. It’s a small amount of money for overall good content. Orange is the New Black is addicting. I didn’t think I’d enjoy it, but it’s very funny, gritty down and dirty too.
The Crown is pretty accurate historically. I can’t find fault with their portrayal of the characters, I can only go by other reports over the years from multiple sources.
Inaccurate depictions = propaganda.
who else in history did that so as to make one group of people hate another group of people?
'I saw it on Maddow so it must be true.'
'I saw it on the TV, so I won't question any of it.' 'It feels historically accurate, so it must be true'.
Most idiots in America have no filter. They buy what they are sold.
"No "we?" Does Meade watch cable or Netflix?"
Meade can speak for himself if he wants. I don't purport to say what he likes!
Seasons one and two were great. People who were close to the queen back then may not be that many or that communicative. I look forward to seeing Helena Bonham Carter in the later seasons.
As a historian by trade, my attitude has always been that the more historical drama, the better. Yes, they are often inaccurate (has anyone seen The Private Lives of Elizabeth and Essex? Whew.). But even lousy historical dramas can inspire people to find out more about the actual history--my students do it all the time after watching something like Wolf Hall (which by the way is pretty carefull about the actual history). And even if a drama doesn't inspire further curiosity, someone who watches The Crown will at least know that there was such a person as Margaret Thatcher and that she was pretty significant. All too many people today have never heard of her.
"how can the be "perfect" and yet fictional?"
Huh? Perfect mannerisms to express fictional content, words never spoken perfectly rendered as if.
Anyway, as a performance The Crown's Charles is very good--too good for the real Charles' good.
Of course, the treatment of Thatcher is to be expected.
Prince Charles is 72. His mother might easily live for another 5 years, maybe 10 years. Imagine training your whole life for a job you might not get until your 70s or 80s, if at all.
If Season 4 of The Crown makes him look bad, and Season 5 makes him look worse, there's always the chance for redemption in Season 6.
"No courtier would ever say that in a million years."
Dramas always have people voicing their thoughts much more than people do in real life. They also have people saying things that they probably thought of later, with reflection, or maybe never thought consciously at all. You have so much more confrontation in drama, so much less self-protection. That's just how it needs to be done for art and entertainment.
I’ve only watched the current Diana season. I don’t know much about the royal family, but my initial impression is that even though lots of people are depicted quite negatively, overall the series makes the royal family (and maybe the queen, specifically) seem much nicer and compassionate than I suspect they really were.
Of all the things that Hollywood and the entertainment industry has spent a century debasing and destroying, Prince Charles ranks near the bottom for me.
By the way, I can't stand watching courtroom dramas, because I'm irritated by the unrealistic aspects of it — the yelling and the confrontation. You would never talk to the judge like that, etc. etc. It's stupid to worry about that, really.
How else can you do it?
The truth is more dramatic than fiction and much more “richly layered” but that also makes it difficult to understand AND takes a very skilled writer to present. The demands of TV executives to create the kind of drama they want to broadcast has distorted their view of reality. Otherwise why not just create fresh Characters similar to but not named Charles like Shakespeare did? Why the push to make entertainment that simulates real people in a distorted dramatic way simultaneous to the push to make journalism more like TV drama and less like presenting reality?
I’m suspicious of the coincidence.
like david hare's roadkill, whose peter laurence, is a conflation of a whole host of characters.
First off, 'Arbiter,' what a great name for a man putting his thumb on the scales of history.
As for mannerisms being perfect, I think that means the actors are doing great impressions of the royals. Facial ticks, Diana's lowered chin and shy smile, Charles' hunched shoulders and hands in the pockets of his blazer, etc.
If you had a plot where the Queen was loaded into a rocket and sent to Mars that would be fiction. But she would look and act like the Queen while doing it.
There was great controversy about Selma. LBJ, who was supportive of MLK and the civil rights movement, was turned into the villain. At first I didn't think it would matter, but really, accuracy is important, especially since Hollywood always overdoes the hero and villain stuff.
Two WWII codebreaker movies were also controversial. In U-571, the film makers gave Americans credit for what Britons did. In Enigma, Tom Stoppard invented a villain who didn't exist.
Usually, fictionalization is accepted unless some group gets their toes stepped on, either an ethnic group or other minority, or the people who had power in the era when the film takes place.
"even though lots of people are depicted quite negatively, overall the series makes the royal family (and maybe the queen, specifically) seem much nicer and compassionate than I suspect they really were."
They are given depth and a real inner life. Just to make them human at all — nice or not — enhances them, I think. Charles is awful in the series, but he's got a ton of depth and reality. We see his suffering...
Ann said..
I'm now a Netflix person, and I find it quite mesmerizing. I'll finally be able to cancel the cable service — which is so much more expensive and which I wasn't watching at all.
You're now a streaming person..
Cancelled cable a long time ago. Don't miss it much.
Have an antenna for local TV.
Let Netflix go over the summer, but begrudgingly queued it up again for the winter months. Amazon Prime is free streaming when you pay for Prime. So that works too as a platform. Acorn TV for more Brit TV options.
Mrs. Maisel is Prime - which you turned us onto. Thanks.
Cable would do itself a favor if it would offer smaller custom packages for less money. Flipping thru a million channels to find the 1 or 2 shows is insanity.
the daily mail points out how he has elements of johnson, gove, farage et al, his worricker series with shadowy whitehall connected corporation manned by mandarins, was more on point than we were willing to note, the sky series now airing on the cw, written by a master trader at julius baer, covers almost every major political and financial scandal of the last few years,
"By the way, I can't stand watching courtroom dramas, because I'm irritated by the unrealistic aspects of it “
Don’t get me started on the call trace scenes in movies. Basically they have you as soon as you hit send. Sometimes as soon as you finish dialing, before you even hit send, depending on the protocol. They dial the tech back decades in order to add drama.
Oh yeah, if if they are looking for a particular cell phone, they don’t have to wait for a phone call, they know where you are anywhere in the world within a few seconds of you turning on the phone.
By the way, I can't stand watching courtroom dramas, because I'm irritated by the unrealistic aspects of it — the yelling and the confrontation. You would never talk to the judge like that, etc. etc. It's stupid to worry about that, really.
The Gell-Mann amnesia effect in action. When I see an actor that can't conduct try to do it, I look for the exit. John Cassavetes was horrible. Danny Kaye was superb enough at it to do it off screen. Too many years spent watching the real thing to put up with anything ridiculous.
no no one comes off noble in devils, the one based on the author, is a little less crooked but he was tempted to throw his wife under the bus, to make it to the upper reaches of london finance,
methinks hare is setting up a modern house of cards, it served michael dobbs for three novels,
the left couldn't defeat the iron lady from finchley in three elections, the animus is still seen in nominally apolitical work like sherlock or a grand guignol spy thriller like kingsman, I guess english libel laws don't apply in fiction,
speaking of queens.. and Netflix.
Just started watching a show called "The Queen's Gambit"
It's OK so far. Keeps the lights on.
"I don't think "The Crown" is "friendly" to anybody. There's good and bad in the Thatcher character. I don't like this political lens on the show. It's debased."
No, they don't seem to have a bias for anyone, but they have been vicious with Thatcher.
But they gloss over major character flaws (hide them actually) in people like Mountbatten.
According to FBI files released under FOIA, he was "a homosexual with a perversion for young boys."
And I've read a lot worse than that...
What was up with Roadkill? Did they run out of money?
no david hare ends it that way, to make it seem like lawrence gets away with it, the twist is much like johnson edging his predecessor out of the way, theresa may,
there was that play and later film, where charles became king, and declared martial law to enforce his preferred legislation,
Somehow this led me to Queen Victoria and her survival of eight assassination attempts. Long reigns have a downside...
I liked Junor's statement — "the mannerisms are perfect. But it is fiction, and it is very destructive." The "perfect" mannerisms — how can they be "perfect" and yet fictional? — belong especially to the Charles character. Are they "destructive" because they are true or "destructive" because they are false?
That's a good closing line but you're overthinking it. The mannerisms are perfect, but the stories--who did what, or not--are fictional. Historical dramas with significant fictions are destructive because believing a significant lie is destructive. Dramas about President Trump will use the fine people hoax, for example.
Seasons 1-3 are great, and accurate to the PMs and the Queen, and pretty fair. In Season 4, I didn't need to watch Diana puke in a toilet quite so many times.
The brief depictions of American Presidents are, if anything, not unhinged enough. Johnson was an extraordinary, unrelenting pig; the Kennedys were looped on speedballs and made idiots of themselves on their European tour, and everyone in politics, plus Princess Margaret, were gobbling truly impressive quantities of pills and/or scotch, past the ciggies permanently fixed in their lips.
I think the show does a brillant job of introducing forgotten notions of duty, public and private, and social cohesion to generations for whom such concepts are completely alien. It must look like science fiction to most under 30. If they can focus for a full fifty minutes on anything, they might learn something about the manifold dangers of dissolving marriage as an . . . institution.
Prince Phillip comes out the real winner here, and I think that's fitting. What a delightful man, and what a tribute to the girding and shaping powers of marital commitment. Laurence Fox is another winner, if he keeps channeling tradition.
Acting Thatcher (and Phyllis Schlafly in another show) is proving to be a real problem for modern leftist actresses: they can't help but substantiate these women's complexity and accomplishment, even as they abhor them in the tabloids.
By the way, I can't stand watching courtroom dramas, because I'm irritated by the unrealistic aspects of it — the yelling and the confrontation. You would never talk to the judge like that, etc. etc. It's stupid to worry about that, really.
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!
you can go back to shakespeare, who basically copied tudor propagandists like merton, with regards to the plantaganets, wolf hall, does paint thomas cromwell in a better light that robert bolt did 50 years earlier,
Re phones and cop dramas. In real life the 911 system starts recording when you dial the last 1 not when they answer.
These historical drama series always start out with the disclaimer "Based on True Events" and that is about the best you can say about them. All of them are just full of historical inaccuracies for dramatic effect. Currently, being PC is the rage, especially in the British-produced series, where gay/lesbian relationships and people of color are introduced where none existed. It's almost like there is a formula or set of rules they have to meet to introduce these where none really existed.
For example, Netflix also has the series "The White Queen", "The White Princess", and "The Spanish Princess", all about the end of the War of the Roses and the beginning of the Tudor dynasty. The first two aren't so bad, but "The Spanish Princess" is just a mess. It focuses on Catherine of Aragon and should have been a really good series if it was historically accurate and they had good scripts and acting. She is one of the most fascinating people in British history. But it is just laughable, the scripts are horrible, and the acting terrible. They also have to go PC with it by introducing black actors and story lines where none would have existed. Catherine with a black lady-in-waiting she brought from Spain? No. And young Price Henry certainly wasn't flirting with Catherine when she first arrived at court to marry his older brother, Arthur. He was only 10 years old, but the series portrays him as if he is much older and more mature than his weakling brother. Bunk.
Another example of PC running wild is in the PBS series "Victoria", which I think Inga praised yesterday as being historically accurate. While my wife and I have enjoyed the series, and it does stick to a generally correct historical timeline, it again has some laughable, made up story lines. The worst is near the end of Season 2, where there was the long-awaited kiss between Lord Alfred Paget and Edward Drummond, aid to PM Robert Peel, which had been telegraphed since the beginning of the season. This never happened but the PC writers just couldn't pass it up. Paget didn't enter service with the Queen until 3 years after Drummond's death. And the death of Drummond - heroically taking a bullet from an assassin that was meant for Peel - never happened either, but it brought the blooming gay relationship to a tragic and tear-jerking end. Actually, Drummond was accidentally shot in the back by the assassin as he was leaving Peel's house, the assassin having waited outside hoping to shoot Peel and getting Drummond by mistake. Not so heroic. The writers, when taken to task by the press over it, were unapologetic about creating the fake story.
FundedCrackPipe: Queen's Gambit collapses into a mess of misunderstanding autism, endorsing bitchy lesbianism and the French, trying not to criticize Stalin's admirable legacy, and black female actresses whose "black English" is so cringing even I'd pay Al Sharpton to sue them for discrimination.
Good luck with it.
there was that play and later film, where charles became king, and declared martial law to enforce his preferred legislation,
The one with Tim Pigott-Smith had him refuse royal assent to an anti-free speech bill. There was another with the actor from Doyle's War, but I don't believe it was specifically King Charles.
Anderson portrays Thatcher as if she is channeling Richard Nixon. Was she that socially awkward?
Thatcher was an ardent Monarchist. If you did not know that you would walk away from Season 4 thinking that she was a republican.
yes that was the second in the urquart series, michael kitchen was king charles, who got in his way, of his plans,
Tina - LOL. OK, thanks for the warning. It's only 7 episodes (One season?) so far.
I'm at #3.
I don't think "The Crown" is "friendly" to anybody. There's good and bad in the Thatcher character. I don't like this political lens on the show. It's debased.
I watched all the Crowns through the most recent season and I think the show has a political lens, not the criticism. What for example was a "positive" portrayal of Thatcher? -- her snubbing of the Balmoral weekend? The Thatcher character was parody straight out of an Elvis Costello song.
Tina cont... Lots of pill popping and drinking..
The scene where the kid breaks into the pills and starts shoving them down her throat in huge gobbles is hilarious. At least the show is not telling me it's "based on historical events"
Fake but accurate?
but the queens gambit wasn't based on a real character, just set in a recognizable time period,
@Tina Trent
And don't forget the trans actor/tress in a minor, but glaringly takes-you-out-of-the-scene role.
If you're going to have hot lesbians in the story, at least show us some action : )
in fact on a novel written in 1983, around the time of the original 'edge of darkness'
The 2019 Project
One of the best things I have seen on Netflix in a while is the Leonard Nimoy documentary called “Spock.” You see the series in a different light after watching it.
We don't teach history in schools any more, so our children get their knowledge of the past from movies and TV. And their physics from Roadrunner cartoons, apparently.
I hope I didn't ruin Queens Gambit for anyone. I like to hate-watch, and I'm a completist. So I enjoyed it anyway.
Watched Season 1 of "The Crown" and enjoyed it but then got lost in Season two - don't remember why. Never started on Season 3 and think it unlikely I will try Season 4.
If you have a chance in the next week, try "The Repair Shop". I say in the next week because there is a note that either the whole show or some seasons will be taking a break from Netflix in early December.
Basically a British reality show where people bring in damaged family heirlooms to get them fixed. They always are asked "what happened?" Some stories are just goofy but others are stories of British history. During the first episode I watched an older lady came in with a doll - which she had received from her host family after being evacuated from London to Scotland during the Blitz. She was 4 when that happened and had kept it since.
No ramped up artificial drama of US reality shows. Many times people will ask that the bumps and bruises on the item not be "fixed" because they are part of the history.
The Bob Dylan one is great too. I always like to find out what inspired a particular song, and to find out that Dylan wrote “When the Ship Comes In” when he was mad about being denied a hotel room before he was famous, for being so scruffy, I can just imagine him saying to himself “When my ship comes in... Hey! Wheres my pen?”
OP: I'd avoided "The Crown," but in the last 2 weeks, I've watched the first 7 episodes of Season 4. After seeing the first 3 episodes, I subscribed to Netflix, something I'd been avoiding for years. I'm now a Netflix person, and I find it quite mesmerizing. I'll finally be able to cancel the cable service — which is so much more expensive and which I wasn't watching at all.
Annie C: No "we?" Does Meade watch cable or Netflix?
Althouse was using the royal "I".
I watched the first episode. They offed Montbatten. Lots of foreshadowing. Reminded me of that last scene in The Godfather. They tried to be fair to the IRA, the royal family, and to Thatcher. At least in the first episode, Thatcher doesn't look so bad, but Gillian Anderson's mimicry of her is just a shade less than an SNL parody....I don't know any members of the Royal Family, but I did briefly have some acquaintance with Mafia members. They were nothing like that family in The Godfather. That doesn't make The Godfather any less a great movie. Royal Family and Mafia movies are a genre unto themselves. The trick isn't being accurate but in being entertaining.
I was saying, that joy's character does interact with some real people correct, but compare this with the hagiography of the wasp spy ring, which obama effected an exchange for, they enabled the targeting of the btr fliers, they libeled the dead, and the the exwife of one of the spies,
Netflix has become increasingly offensive. After several quits, I committed to making it permanent after “Cuties.”
a happy ending, but as with munich, not completely,
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367629/SAS-hit-squad-tracked-IRA-terrorists-murdered-Lord-Mountbatten-Army-expert-claims.html
Thanks, y'all! I can write off a whole lot of 'based on true stories' series (that I wouldn't have watched anyway) based on the critique here.
My first realization that the Brits were seriously degenerate was when Lady Broodsow's death in Paris turned into a national psychodrama. That Di is revered and Thatcher despised by so many is just further evidence.
Of course, those clans of mediocre and perverted Krauts--the Windsors and Mountbattens etc-- are no better or worse overall than the general run of Royal Eurotrash. The continued fascination on the part of so many around the world is a backhanded testimony to the cultural importance still attached to them and their antics.
Narr
But at least they're not those dreadful Stuarts
My great career or romantic moments have all been played out under fluorescent lights or by factory walls. Not much in the way of sweeping vistas or proportioned architecture as my life has advanced through its petty moments. I like how the soppy moments of the royals are played out with such picturesque backdrops. It reminds me a bit of Emily In Paris. Emily gets to play out her flirtations at the Paris Opera or on the Pont Neuf. With such a backdrop, things don't seem so trite....Maybe next season on Emily in Paris she can meet someone with a time travel machine. She can go back in time and flirt with Prince Charles or maybe hint at a lesbo thing with Diana or maybe even a possible threesome. That would be great television.
Tina,
You did not ruin it at all.
I'm not sure about the autism thing. I have a nephew with severe autism. He will never function in society. Based on my perception of what people think autism is, I think many people who have never experienced time with a person with it, have uneducated and incorrect perceptions. Yes, there are Mensas and individuals with mild autism or asperbers, who are on the high functioning end of the spectrum.. but that's not everyone and it's not a catch-all for every quirky personality type. or even every weird genius. The main thread of autism is ... social skills. Highly function geniuses could not travel the world like that and perform chess skills in open forums with people all around like that.
If the main character has "autism" - I'd call bullshit. But it's a TEEVEE show and you filter it all thru as you watch so you can attempt to enjoy part of it. I'm already finding myself mocking the pills and drinking... the language for the time period seems too modern. Nothing new with these types of shows.
I like to hate-watch, and I'm a completist.
I remembered Inspector Morse as obnoxious, arrogant, and sentimental from 30 years ago, and I just watched all the episodes again except the devil worship one. Sometimes, so many bodies drop, he isn't even a great detective, it's just process of elimination. Midsomer has the same problem.
Amy Welborn on The Queen's Gambit, another "based on a true story" work of historical quasi-fiction.
"The Thatcher character was parody straight out of an Elvis Costello song."
Nice reference!
'The fag-ends of the aristocracy...'
"Midsomer has the same problem."
Sure, but Midsomer is played for comedy and escapism.
It's the 'Matlock' of police procedurals.
Vermont Tim, that is true for me too and I love the Tom Petty channel on SXM for the behind-the-song bits we get from various Heartbreakers, Mudcrutch-ers, Wilburies and Tom himself (RIP). That show where Tom’s daughter is interviewed by Rick Rubin is extremely interesting for what it reveals about her (she’s a film director) growing up around traveling rockers along with Jakob Dylan and her father. Rubin having produced many Petty songs provides a great background for interviewing her (yes I’m avoiding her name A-something and am too lazy to look it up).
The important thing is that this time of year we like to celebrate that Tim of Vermont and I have a lot of common ground excluding the mask issue.
For the record I am soooo rooting for one or more vaccine to provide a polio-like happy ending because once this WuFlu is gone we can start analyzing the data for real. First and best I really do think we may be on the verge of that other oft-referenced moonshot moment: a cure for the common cold and maybe flu too. That will continue to save lives beyond stopping the current pandemic and simultaneous panicdemic. Trump’s performance might be the cure for the common cold.
I was living "in" Sloane Street in London when Maggie was taking on Arthur Scargill and the coal miners' union.
People accused her of essentially seeking to put British coal out of business---and she was
She planned to shut down 20 inefficient mines and many more after that during a three-year period. And she did.
Thus it is highly ..ironic.. that the today's Left treats the "Iron Lady" as if she were the Conservative Devil Incarnate.
I mean, wasn't she just way ahead of her time in doing what Barak, Biden, Hillary (and now AOC and the Green Weenies) have been attempting to do the past 15 years or so, kill the American Coal industry?
“Another example of PC running wild is in the PBS series "Victoria", which I think Inga praised yesterday as being historically accurate.”
No I didn’t. While I did immensely enjoy the series, I didn’t say it was historically accurate, I said that The Crown seemed to be historically accurate, same as I did today.
“Blogger Inga said...
PBS’s Victoria is another worthwhile series. I can’t wait for Season 4, which I’ve heard won’t be anytime soon.
11/25/20, 7:18 PM”
A whole new GOLD MINE of posts! This issue is Netflix-wide. Everything I know about the drug trade comes from "Narcos". Is it accurate? Who knows? OTOH hand, sometimes a show will inspire you to read a credible source.
Ralph L said...
By the way, I can't stand watching courtroom dramas, because I'm irritated by the unrealistic aspects of it — the yelling and the confrontation. You would never talk to the judge like that, etc. etc. It's stupid to worry about that, really.
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!
********
Heh ISWYDT
Its largely true in many respects
We enjoyed Queen's Gambit. A show that my Gen-Z daughter and I both look forward to is a treat.
Another good series on Netflix, from British TV “Peaky Blinders”, about a Gypsy ( aka Roma, Travelers?) gang/crime family in 1900’s Birmingham, England. They’d probably slash me for calling them Gypsies.
It was good till season 3
Queen’s Gambit was entertaining, I enjoyed the series, loved her discovery of fashion and seeing her wearing the different things she bought. I like the actress, Joy, she also was “Emma” in the latest remake of Jane Austen’s novel “Emma”.
The horsey set in the UK have been up in arms about the many errors in The Crown’s portrayal of Princess Ann as equestrienne. She was holding the reins the wrong way, for openers.
One last suggestion, “Charité” , a German series about a real research hospital in Berlin from the end of the 1900’s through WW2, luckily I ended up not reading subtitles after a few episodes, it refreshed my German enough so that I no longer needed to!
"Another good series on Netflix, from British TV “Peaky Blinders”, about a Gypsy ( aka Roma, Travelers?) gang/crime family in 1900’s Birmingham, England."
I watched a few episodes so am not an expert, but I was under the impression that the main family is decidedly Anglo, but one of their members marries into a gypsy family for the sake of an alliance.
“I watched a few episodes so am not an expert, but I was under the impression that the main family is decidedly Anglo, but one of their members marries into a gypsy family for the sake of an alliance.”
IIRC, they were “Irish Travellers”. AKA Gypsies or properly known as Roma.
Found this interesting.
The grimy industrial underworld of the BBC’s hit period drama Peaky Blinders may not be entirely accurate, but the truth is just as deadly.
Peaky Blinders, which began airing in 2013, follows the Irish-Romani Shelby family led by the mercurial Tommy (played by Cillian Murphy) as he takes on some of the biggest underworld figures in 1920s Britain.
"AKA Gypsies or properly known as Roma."
Yes, I know this. They are responsible for 99% of the crime on Roman subways.
"Peaky Blinders, which began airing in 2013, follows the Irish-Romani Shelby family..."
I stand corrected. I may return to the series at some point.
The Irish Travelers and Gypsies are not the same. Travelers (a.k.a., Knackers, Tinkers, Pikers) are people of Celtic descent. Gypsies, i.e. Roma, are a very ancient people who most likely originated in northern or northwest India. They may be Indo-European; or not. I've had dealings with both. They are physically, linguistically, and culturally very different. The only thing really they have in common is their traveling/nomadic lifestyle. Oh, and also, they're all inveterate thieves. If you shake hands with one, for example, you would be well advised to check your hands afterward to make sure you still have all five of your fingers.
Let me be clear: I meant to say that both the Travelers and the Roma are inveterate thieves.
Netflix "The English Game"
I don't care one bit about soccer or football - but I enjoyed this little show very much. 4+ stars. 98 fried green tomatoes. and a partridge in a pear tree.
The horsey set in the UK have been up in arms about the many errors in The Crown’s portrayal of Princess Ann as equestrienne.
The actress kept losing the bit when reading her lines.
Re the Irish Travelers, I highly recommend the movie "Travelers" starring Bill Paxton, Mark Wahlberg, and Juliana Margulies. Utterly charming little Indy production, with Paxton playing a lovable Traveler rogue and Wahlberg playing his cousin, a wannabe Traveler.
Inventing things for historically-based stories can be a real turn off. Consider "Hunters" on Amazon Prime. Loosely based on Nazi hunters going after Germans hiding out in the US in the 1970's. Many 'flashbacks' experienced by the Jewish characters who were in concentration camps. Said flashbacks consisted of horrible things done to them by the Nazis.
However, these scenes were *fabricated* by the writers! Think about this hard: the historical record should provide enough examples, why are the writers *inventing* this shit? Why are they 'playing Nazi'?One has to wonder if they were disappointed at what the Nazi did, that in their minds they didn't go **far enough**. I never dropped a show so fast.
"The Irish Travelers and Gypsies are not the same."
This makes more sense. The characters in 'Peaky' are in now way even faintly Roma or Romanian (where most of the Italian gypsies seem to come from).
They are thoroughly Anglo...
If you do a search for Irish Travelers, you see lots of pix of blondes in caravans.
So travelers, yes. Roma, no.
I take back my 'stand corrected.'
And agree about thievery...it is literally a main tenet of the culture.
The depiction of Margaret Thatcher is terrible. Of course liberals always denigrate conservatives in their portrayal, but she depicts Thatcher as a decrepit 80 year old! I am 75 and I remember Margaret Thatcher. She was an energetic, robust 54 year old when she became Prime Minister and continued to be energetic throughout her tenure. She saved England from itself!
If our hostess has finally decided to spring for Netflix, then Amazon is a must. Some great stuff there. And we have periodically subscribed to Showtime and HBO. Some outstanding series there too. Some faves:
- Billions
- Succession
- Silicone Valley
- Ozark
- Justified
- Mozart
- Westworld
- GoT
- Sneaky Pete
- Dead to Me
- Borgias
- Krumhorn
“What type of Gypsy are peaky blinders?
The Lee are Romanian gypsies and we call them Romani. Romani have a dialect from Romanian which they use it or not, it depends on them. In the 4th episode from the 1st season, Tommy speaks Romanian.”
The Shelby's are Romani gypsies. Tommy speaks a Romani dialect a few times throughout the show, most notably in series 1, episode 4 after the bomb in his car goes off. He goes off to talk to a lady from the Lee family to try and settle the trouble between the Shelby's and the Lee's.
So it seems they are Roma/Romani aftreall.
For Irish Travellers, I cannot recommend highly enough FX's late, lamented series, "The Riches". Eddie Izzard (NOT in a dress) and Minnie Driver as his wife. Extraordinary (and put 'Beloved Character Actress Margo Martindale' on the map for me)
The show was unceremoniously cancelled because of the writers strike and that STILL irks Minnie Driver. The show is now available on Hulu. Here is their write up:
"In The Riches, Wayne and Dahlia Malloy are Irish travelers from rural Louisiana. The Malloys, along with their three children, go on the run after stealing money from the extended family bank. An unfortunate accident provides a great opportunity when they obtain the identity of a well-to-do “normal family,” becoming “H. Douglas and Cherien Rich.” Seduced by the idea of a bigger life for themselves, and armed with the keys to a new house in a posh neighborhood, they soon find that suburban life is more twisted and challenging than any of their previous stings."
"So it seems they are Roma/Romani aftreall."
Reading the rest of your cited thread, it seems that the main character is 1/4 Romani and 3/4 English/Irish.
Are you applying the Democrat's one drop rule?
Inga said...
One last suggestion, “Charité” , a German series about a real research hospital in Berlin from the end of the 1900’s through WW2, luckily I ended up not reading subtitles after a few episodes, it refreshed my German enough so that I no longer needed to!
*****************
While watching, did you find yourself reflexively giving a Nazi salute, the way Peter Sellers did as "Dr. Strangelove"?
Might explain a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddWNMSUbcGI
I think the depiction I found most troubling this season was the Queen firing her press secretary for "leaking" her opinion of Margaret Thatcher when she herself told him to do it, and he emphatically went on the record as being against it both to her and to the other people in the press office. At the end of the episode, they ran one of those little written epilogues that tell you what happened to the person later in life, which made me think that it really happened. The New York Times story says it never did:
But Mr. Neil disputed several elements of “The Crown’s” retelling, not least that Buckingham Palace made the queen’s press secretary, Michael Shea, the scapegoat for the incident. The show depicts his being fired for having leaked the story, even though it suggests that he did so at the queen’s behest. There is no evidence of this, Mr. Neil said, but it fits Mr. Morgan’s “left-wing agenda.”
“He gets to depict Thatcher as pretty much an ally of apartheid while the queen is the sort of person who junks loyal flunkies when things go wrong, even when they are just doing her bidding,” Mr. Neil said.
Mr. Neil was the editor of the newspaper that published the story at the time.
That seems much more than poetic license to me. It is a deliberate distortion that makes the Queen seem amoral.
what I was referring to:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8954553/Twenty-ways-Sir-David-Hare-appears-settle-Left-wing-scores-past-present-Roadkill.html
Traveler language has several names and numerous variations, including Shelta, the Cant, the Gammon or Gammyglob, the Ould Thing, etc. etc. All have Celtic roots; all are kept incomprehensible to outsiders, deliberately so.
One of the better movies about Travelers is "Snatch" with Brad Pitt. Hilarious. Pitt is a "Piker," and English version of "Traveler," so-called for the penchant for nomadic travels on Britain's turnpikes in their 30-foot trailers.
The Roma speak a language with distant Sanskrit roots. They tend to be very dark and dress in colorful Indian-like clothes. I've encountered them in my travels in southern France, Italy, Greece, the Eastern Mediterranean, etc. You really have to watch yourself around them. At tourist sites they conduct swarming attacks with their kids. Twenty or thirty kids swarming around you, yelling and grabbing, you'll have everything taken from you if you don't beat a hasty retreat. You can't fight them or chase them, because just down block are the Roma adults running those kids, and they'll come at you if they think you're a danger to the kids.
Watch the queens gambit. So good.
Agree about the Queens Gambit. One of the better Netflix efforts.
The actress in queens gambit is mesmerizing. Those eyes. Yum
"They are given depth and a real inner life. Just to make them human at all — nice or not — enhances them, I think. Charles is awful in the series, but he's got a ton of depth and reality. We see his suffering..."
I'm shocked that Camilla seems quite benevolent. She understands why Charles cannot leave Diana.
"I watched all the Crowns through the most recent season and I think the show has a political lens, not the criticism. What for example was a "positive" portrayal of Thatcher? -- her snubbing of the Balmoral weekend? The Thatcher character was parody straight out of an Elvis Costello song."
Yes, contrast her with the other PMs depicted in the series. They depicted her as unable to laugh or have fun. Go and watch her Question Times on YouTube -- often rollicking with laughter.
In the middle of Berlin there's a quiet hedged memorial pond and park to the Roma and related groups who were targeted and murdered in significant numbers during the Turd Reich. It seemed virtually unvisited when we were there last year, and we more or less stumbled across it. It's a sad and dutiful little remembrance on a dank autumn afternoon.
Around here (50s-70s) we had Travelers or Irish or various state Travelers; they were seldom seen in the better 'hoods but there were exceptions. A few families went to the RC parish schools with my wife (1-9) but no one family seems to have stayed for more than 2-3 years at a time.
They looked like more colorful and exotic versions of RTT (redneck trailer trash)--lots of bling for that era, and if you clerked in a department store you soon came to recognize the style of dress and speech. A bit like Cousin Eddie.
Haven't seen any in a while.
Narr
Some of the women were hotly distracting
"The actress in queens gambit is mesmerizing. Those eyes. Yum"
A lot of her was mesmerizing...not just the eyes that are yum : )
It seems like many people are trying to divert the watching public from the established facts the series employs by pointing out that the scriptwriter wasn't present for the conversations surrounding said established events. It's dishonest in itself, that.
Blair ... oh no - the Russians were able to read the thoughts of the Royals and transmit the accuracy to Hollywood.
"Are they "destructive" because they are true or "destructive" because they are false?"
Neither. The destruction feared is that historical fiction will become actual history in the minds of most viewers - not whether or not this or that mannerism is true or false.
Agreed. Somebody ask Sarah Palin what SNL's "historical fiction" did to her career.
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