Some of the city’s wealthiest neighborhoods lost as many as 40 percent of their residents between March and May, thanks to the COVID-19 outbreak. And new levies — a billionaires’ tax, an ultra-millionaires’ tax, etc. are among several ideas Dems are eyeing to plug Albany’s $30 billion two-year budget hole — will only push the rich to flee permanently. Taking their tax money with them. It’s no coincidence, after all, that New York, where “1 percent of the population pays 50 percent of the taxes,” as Cuomo notes, has been steadily losing residents....
August 6, 2020
Governor Cuomo begs rich people who've relocated to their out-of-the-city houses: "You gotta come back."
He wants them back in New York City but he knows what they're thinking: "If I stay there, I pay a lower income tax, because they don’t pay the New York City surcharge." That quote is from Cuomo, who doesn't find it hard to read minds, not when it comes to rich people and tax avoidance.
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I could never figure out why anyone would want to live there in the first place.
Because of the flu
I'm leaving today
Don't want to be a part of it
New York, New York
Yep, the Governor spoke the truth about the rich paying the lion's share of taxes. (You won't hear that many places,it's a 180 from the narrative).
And the Democrats relief bill would roll back the limits on deduction of local taxes on your Federal return.
Tax the rich he shouted to the masses.
Not to worry he whispered to his funders.
Or to paraphrase Margaret Thatcher: The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Their best option looks like a bankruptcy filing - like Detroit a few years ago. It looks inevitable. They are not coming back to such a madhouse.
What did he expect? The rich were going to wait around NYC for Robespierre to roll out the guillotine after the Bastille was emptied?
Yup. Our good friends - he’s a corporate attorney; she’s a research scientist - left for their cabin in Vermont in March and are just not going back to their place in Manhattan. They bought a car (hadn’t had one before) and will commute for necessary in person stuff but that’s the end of it. They are not afraid of the virus but there is no point to paying a premium to live in the city anymore.
Isn't he the one who basically said that if you do not support the liberal agenda, you are not welcome in New York? Is he gonna beg Rush Limbaugh to come back?
FDR had to beg them to come back, too after he chased them out of the US. It almost makes it seem like high tax rates don't raise much revenue but we all know that's not true since the lefties tell us it isn't true...
About time Cuomo started kissing their asses instead of whacking them with a crowbar.
Not to worry governor, MMT says the US treasury can just print an unlimited amounts of money without suffering any negative consequences. AOC tells us so. Funny how she still wants to tax people though...
If you're rich and ever lived in NYC they'll audit you every year forever, according to Rush.
No, they don't need to come back. Free country.
America gets a lot of tax refugees from other countries. Fleeing to pay less is part of our immigrant heritage.
There's also this: Demoratic hypocrisy
Multiple times, I have said I wished I were a liberal so that I, too, had the super-power of reading other people's minds, even people I've never met.
Cuomo and de Blassio last October when Trump changed his legal residency from Manhattan to Florida:
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/01/trump-jr-andrew-cuomo-good-riddance-063782
“Don’t let the door hit you on the way out or whatever,” de Blasio tweeted. “Good riddance. It’s not like @realDonaldTrump paid taxes here anyway...He’s all yours, Florida,” Cuomo wrote.
Trump Jr. also took to Twitter to attack Cuomo: “Nice soundbite. Now do the tens of thousands of other successful New Yorkers and businesses fleeing your idiotic policies every week,” Trump Jr. wrote. “I’ll wait.”
serious question
in our New Normal.. WHY would ANYONE that could move out of NYC, NOT move out?
If you don't need to go into to work
If you can't go to broadway shows
If you can't go clubbing
WHAT IS THERE IN NYC TO MAKE YOU WANT TO LIVE THERE?
There are a whole lot of public finance chickens that will come home to roost, but probably not until after the election. The media will not want to ruffle the smooth sailing to a dem victory by asking tough questions like "how are you going to afford that?" "How much would you raise state income tax?" "Would you favor across the board cuts in public employee salaries?" etc
Welcome to reality, Mr. Cuomo.
Meanwhile, in San Fransisco - a city ruled by one party, the drugs, crime and homeless camps are taking over the streets.
Please watch.
The 7 minute mark is very telling. Notice the slick words, and the obedient progressives eating the BS with blind-faith glee.
So sad.
democrats are the party of unintended consequences. Why would anyone want that?
Let's see... where have I heard this sort of story before?
Oh, yes. Aesop's Fable about the Golden Goose. Cuomo could have been content with the occasional golden egg, but figured the thing to do was kill the goose and open it up to get all the gold that must have been inside it.
Only in this retelling, the Goose figured out it was on the chopping block - and flew away leaving Cuomo crying bitterly and pleading for it to come back.
So he could gut it.
Yeah... that'll make it come back. Sure it will.
My new neighbors? From New York City.
They came out to visit their grown children in March, and never went back. Bought the house next door. They went back to NYC last week for the first time to clear out their apartment.
>>a billionaires’ tax, an ultra-millionaires’ tax, etc. are among several ideas Dems are eyeing to plug Albany’s $30 billion two-year budget hole
Brilliant! People are moving to avoid high taxes, so the solution is... make them even higher!
And let's not forget the "You gotta come back." Sounds like a threat... Maybe we need a concentration camp in Central Park for Billionaires.
You ain't GOTTA do anything of the kind.
Almost as bad as California where the 1% pay about 75% of state income tax, causing feast or famine budgeting that tracks the Dow 500 like a mother.
1% pay 50%?
That can't possibly be right. I've been assured by all the right people that the rich never pay their fair share of taxes.
Come back for the taxes, stay for the COVID.
Soros will spend billions getting corruptocrats elected, but he won't pay that in taxes.
There's that as well.
Yes, go back to NYC and in a few years and he can kill you too.
Come back to what? Everything's closed.
"where “1 percent of the population pays 50 percent of the taxes”"
So, progs, what would be enough? What level of progressivity would usher in the era of Social Justice?
Anyway, good thing people can vote with their feet. As long as they don't replicate their origin sin by voting for progs wherever they end up.
Like an abusive husband telling his tortured wife "things will be different this time."
But wait, I was assured higher taxes - also frequently called "revenue raising programs" - did not have negative effects and simply took more money from those rich bastards?
I live in PA, work outside a major city, and see my collective federal-state-local income tax over 30%. Actual.
Then I add in real estate taxes, social security withholding, and other taxes and forced income withdrawls and I realize that living in a middle-tax state and outside of a major city I still get solidly over 40% of my income kept from my grubby hands.
At this level I'm still encouraged to make more money, but I'm fairly confident once it hits 50% of my income is taken from me I will stop focusing my efforts on producing more income and instead switch my efforts to reducing tax burden on the income I have as a primary focus.
And that's exactly what the rich in NYC are facing. Cuomo is arguing for the rich to come back to a disrupted city, where crime is spiking dramatically, in the middle of an ongoing pandemic.....so that more of their money can be taken from them, not because the city actually wants them - while major figures within the city continue to decry the rich.
Winning argument you got there buddy.
the Cherry on top of unfair tax rates in places like NYC - is a city falling into chaos and crime via DeBlasio.
But please- watch SNL mock Rudy Guiliiani in a lame skit. Keep people stupid.
LOL!
Additionally, this is not a "spot" loss but a long term loss. You resettle out of the city, the longer you stay out the longer you get used to staying out. These are "super wealthy" folks so once all of this is over a number of them may return but I would suspect a large number will not make a permanent move back into the city full-time. They would likely structure things so that they continue to avoid the taxes they will get used to not paying.
Incentives...
>>So, progs, what would be enough? What level of progressivity would usher in the era of Social Justice?
I suspect the answer is: "The top 50% pay 200% of the taxes. So that way we have a budget surplus every year!"
Simple!
Look- Cuomo's a moron. And he's the brighter of the two boys in his family. While it's true that people are fleeing New York, it's not just the city. It's the entire state. And a huge reason they've been doing so is taxes. You don't slide over to the Hamptons or Connecticut to get away from taxes. But you do slide over there to get away from crime, filth, too many people. Nothing New York can do about that while it's run by Democrats. The 'too many people' thing is what makes New York New York. The crime, taxes, and filth is what makes it a signature Democrat run city.
And it's why we're seeing so many New Yorkers and New Jerseyites, Baltimoreans, Bostonians moving down here to Florida to join the already full house of Chicagoans, Detroiters. Not sure I feel good about being inundated with Northeast Democrats who may not understand what drove them out of the Northeast to begin with.
Who cares about taxes when Cuomo is leading the nation and the world in COVID deaths? Can we talk about that?
Both Cuomo's like to blame Trump, but the rest of the country or the world hasn't accomplished to destruction of New York state. New York City is just that much worse. Especially now that they added BLM cuts in policing and the subsequent rise in shooting related crimes. Taxes can be paid, but former New Yorkers agree with that Virginian and regret that they have just one life to give.
Bad luck!
Heya Charles, whaddaya doin?
Get back over here and chip in $600K so this ex-con can be a social worker and police these STREETS.
Cuomo has definitely lost the plot line, but he used to know it. Back in those days he said there are 50,000 people who carry the tax burden for New York state. Now, having ruined New York city with policies that assured panic, confusion, and death, plus his inability to control the even more destructive mayor, Cuomo is sitting in a wreck with nothing to do but plead for the rich 50,000 to return.
We have the same problem in Chicago, where the real estate taxes are high and the sales tax is almost 11%. Online shopping was strangling those retail sales and the tax revenue they generated, and now the Covid panic has killed them. The police have been demoralized since the Laquon McDonald fiasco, Soros got a pathetically foolish State’s Attorney elected, and the Teachers Union, long headed by Commies, llikes the idea of no work at full pay.
The mayor and the governor are hot on the trail of the one person who has had the least to do with Illinois’s troubles, President Trump. Talk about failure! They can only beat Trump once, but then they are stuck with what they have done.
When will those tourists came back to Michigan Avenue and Oak Street? Who wouldn’t want to get caught in a gang war crossfire outside Louis Vuitton?
Getting what he wanted, good and hard.
This pandemic has opened up the eyes of many, many people about many, many things.
If a company can function well enough with its office staff working from home for months at a time, there really is no reason why they have to be in the office. And if the employees do not have to be in the office, they do not have to live near the office. Why pay a premium for an apartment in New York City when you can live out in the country on 10 acres with your dogs and the horse you always wanted, or by the beach where you can start and/or end your day out by the ocean, or, if you must remain somewhat near the office for the occasional meeting, in the suburbs where you can own your own house with your own backyard and only worry about your neighbors when you care to do so? Oh, and those alternatives cost less.
New York City still does have its charms and attractions, but at some point you really have to analyze how much you are availing yourself of such things and whether it is worth the cost to have "easy" access to them. If you go to a Broadway show a couple of times a year, you don't need to live in the city to do that. With the current city administration seemingly having minimal interest in public safety, it makes the question all the easier to answer.
@BleachBit, and then your new neighbors will vote the same way they did in New York, and eventually where you live will turn into the same sort of shithole that they fled.
I wonder where all the fresh faced high school girls who want to break into Broadway are riding buses to now?
They need to pay their taxes because the Mayor needs the money to defund the police.
It's Demonomics 101.
Hmmm, liberal New York elites go Galt.
Of course, these new New York seekees of asylum against leftist rule, voting with their feet, exiles will vote in new Cuomos and DeBlasios wherever they land...
...because of course they will.
Sebastian said...
"where “1 percent of the population pays 50 percent of the taxes”"
So, progs, what would be enough? What level of progressivity would usher in the era of Social Justice?
oh! oh! pick me! pick me!!
that one's EASY What level of progressivity would usher in the era of Social Justice?
"where “1 percent of the population pays 100 percent of the taxes”"
and Not Just Taxes! 100 percent of ALL COSTS
as long as the 99%, have to put ANY Effort, of ANY sort, into things: THERE WILL BE NO JUSTICE!!
NO JUSTICE!!! NO PEACE!!! NO JUSTICE!!! NO PEACE!!! NO JUSTICE!!! NO PEACE!!!
Rich people vote with their feet. They can live anywhere they want on the planet and still make money. Even the big shot Wall Street guys are starting to leave. You can trade anywhere, too.
Baby come back, any kind of fool could see,
There was something in everything about you.
Baby come back, you can blame it all on me,
I was wrong, and I just can't live without you.
The Last thing we want is there fucking dysfunctional New Yorkers moving out of their beloved city and fucking the rest of the USA. Of course, there are plenty of Good New Yorkers, but a majority of them, particularly the rich ones, are complete assholes.
So Del Blasio needs to lure them back, for the sake of the rest of us.
50% tax rate? I doubt many of them pay that. The rich have their $$ in assets, and pay the capital gains tax when they sell their stock/bonds/real estate etc. what the rate, 15%?
Liberals keep telling everyone how smart they are, but they don't seem to understand first-year economics 101 principles.
Sadly, more and more conservatives don't seem to either...
Biden will bail out his ass.
The legislative remedy is obvious. Repeal the law of unintended consequences.
In Philadelphia in response to the Covid recession the mayor proposed raising taxes to help the government workers in the hard time. Who is the government supposed to help anyway?
The problem is that nearly ALL of those fleeing New Yorkers are infected with a dangerous and deadly contagion. Nearly all of them. And by fleeing, they spread that contagion to other areas with devastating effect.
Of course, that contagion is their progressive/liberal mindset, which leads them to vote in their new communities for the same type of politicians that have destroyed the place from whence they came.
Althouse is amused by Bible verses and Galatians 6:7 which explains about how you reap what you sow would be apt here.
democrats are the party of unintended consequences
Early on, perhaps, they can be excused for innocence and ignorance, and given the benefit of the doubt.
But after witnessing time and again, over and over and over, what the consequences are, and then they keep doing the same thing again and again, at some point it becomes INTENTIONAL disregard and not good faith action.
No need to go back; just send your money.
If the Democrats win NYC will get a bailout from rural America and solvent red states. So I am not actually joking.
"who doesn't find it hard to read minds, not when it comes to rich people and tax avoidance." Well, that's what I would think! Heh.
"So, progs, what would be enough?"
In an article I read some time ago, the author (unknown, sorry) noted that when the topic of taxes came up in conversation with his progressive friends and acquaintances, he would ask "If you could set the tax rate however you like with the provision it could never, ever be raised above that level, what percentage would you choose?" and typically got a lot of hem and hawing and not much in the way of a definitive answer.
I'm not a prog but I do know their answer to the original question- it's MOAR.
A few years back NJ suffered a budget setback when one whole entire rich person moved out of state.
One.
Just one.
If Democrats gain control of the Senate, maintain control of the House, and gain the presidency with their sock puppet- everyone's taxes will go up to support the profligacy of NY, NJ, CA, UL and their ilk.
Seems that almost all liberal prescriptions, which translates today to all Democrat prescriptions for the future, consist of programs that mean no individual or state should ever be held accountable for bad life choices.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I still get solidly over 40% of my income kept from my grubby hands.
At this level I'm still encouraged to make more money, but I'm fairly confident once it hits 50% of my income is taken from me I will stop focusing my efforts on producing more income
I'm sorry to tell you, supply-sider TreeJoe (and practically everyone else), that you are not a free person. You are effectively a slave when someone else claims ownership of the fruits of your hard labors, particularly to this degree.
This pandemic has opened up the eyes of many, many people about many, many things.
And yet, I predict that in their realized horror and disgust, that these same people will do the same damn thing and vote for the same damn people who have caused this destruction of society.
We had toyed with the idea of moving to Manhattan after our kids launched. (Low crime, extensive public transit so you don't have to drive when you get old, classic movies on the big screen every weekend, symphony, art, etc.) Not now! Blue cities showed that they're fine with blue riots. No thanks. Nice place to visit, but...
"Cuomo is sitting in a wreck with nothing to do but plead for the rich 50,000 to return."
He's sitting on a reservoir of frackable natural gas.
I once had to explain to a CPA that while I had an airline ticket that took me through New York, I had never left the airport terminal, only going there to catch a plane to London. Because, had I performed any act of business while within the boundaries of New York, state or city, even so little as lunching with a coworker in the airport (a business lunch!), I would owe taxes to them and would be subject to audit by them.
"The Last thing we want is there fucking dysfunctional New Yorkers moving out of their beloved city and fucking the rest of the USA. Of course, there are plenty of Good New Yorkers, but a majority of them, particularly the rich ones, are complete assholes.
So Del Blasio needs to lure them back, for the sake of the rest of us."
What we need is the Anti-Snake Pliskin!
Big Mike.. 9:12
Oh yes. It's already happening. Crime and homelessness are on rise.
Where I live is already one-party rule. CO was red once - independent once upon a time. Now it's woke-lecture led by a single party and a political tyrant named Polis.
>>I live in PA, work outside a major city, and see my collective federal-state-local income tax over 30%. Actual. Then I add in real estate taxes, social security withholding, and other taxes and forced income withdrawals and I realize that living in a middle-tax state and outside of a major city I still get solidly over 40% of my income kept from my grubby hands.
You seem to have neglected sales tax in your calculation. You get taxed when you earn the money, and then taxed again when you spend it. If you invest it and make money, you get taxed again. And, when you die, if you've done well you will get taxed yet again.
Americans have about 10 trillion dollars in 401K accounts. The D's are working on plans to tax those, too.
And yes, Original Mike is correct. President Biden (shortly followed by President Harris or President Rice) will bail them out with tax money earned by the responsible.
I've said it before, and this is just another example: D economic policies are a scheme to transfer money from people who generally vote R to people who generally vote D.
Hey, Andy: Atlas shrugs. Tell Fredo, too.
(Of course, we aren't the ultra wealthy at Cuomo wants, but perhaps some of them are thinking the same way.)//
Sebastian asks: "So, progs, what would be enough? What level of progressivity would usher in the era of Social Justice?"
Reminds me of the question the late libertarian journalist Joseph Sobran used to ask "liberals" and other memebers of what he called "The Hive:" How much statism will be enough? At what point do we say, Okay, here and no further: anything beyond this is outright tyranny. When the income tax takes eighty per cent of one's wealth? Ninety? Or as Obama's dad recommended, one hundred? Would you stop then?
I'll put the same basic question to Howard, Inga and the other State-fellators who post here. Sobran said he never could get a straight answer from "liberals."
Planned Parent has left New York a hole... whore of its former self.
The Last thing we want is there fucking dysfunctional New Yorkers moving out of their beloved city and fucking the rest of the USA
The ones that are leaving aren't the dysfunctional ones.
New York is a bit more confiscatory than the federal government for the top 1%, but not by much.
According to IRS data, in 2018 (the most recent year with available data), the top 1% of income earners paid 38.9% of the total federal income tax collected. (They also earned 21.2% of the total adjusted gross income.) Their overall total federal income tax rate was 30.6%; that's their effective tax rate, not marginal.
So by asking the top 1% to pay 50% of all income tax, NYC only demands a little more from the top 1% than the feds do.
But remember, comrades: these capitalist parasites are not paying their fair share!
That's what happens when you let the Booger-Loos take over the streets.
They celebrated when Limbaugh left. Sort of like the coal miners celebrating when the canary dies. "More air for us!”
I wouldn’t even buy a property in New York State, and I would kind of like to. I grew up there. They have special squads to hunt down and nail high net worth people. They have judges who will force New York State residency on you, which is what they tried to do to Limbaugh even though he left for Florida. He finally was forced to sell his pied á terre there becuase they showed up at his house in Florida annually to compare it to his apartment in NYC to try to find a way to force residency on him.
"He's sitting on a reservoir of frackable natural gas.”
That would go to upstaters so no. Second class citizens.
"This pandemic has opened up the eyes of many, many people about many, many things.”
People are starting to grok stuff.
Conservatives have been warning about this for some while.
Couldn't be happier to see it happening to Leftist Collectivists.
The monopoly power of Democratics in the big cities is just as corrosive as it is in business.
I was watching his press conference when he said this and I was amazed. Not that I disagree, it's the most sensible thing he's said in months, but I thought when did Cuomo become a Republican?
Saying that 1% of the people pay 50% of the taxes and we need those people to do things is the Republican position. The only difference is that the Republicans think they need that money to invest in capital, create jobs, grow the economy, and advance national industries; while Cuomo thinks they need to move back to the city.
As long as NY is NotNY, they won't be back.
Hah! If you're a wealthy New Yorker, and wanna come back to DeBlasio/Cuomo's shit-hole without police to pay the bulk of everyone's taxes, well, be my guest!
#Native New Yorker (before Bay Area status). Parents went to James Monroe High in the Bronx, and Stuyvesant High in lower Manhattan.
Have a nice day, Fredo's brother! (Does that make him Sonny?)
Almost Paradise - The New New York
Taxes 50% Lower
No Filthy-Rich Richies Flaunting White Privilege
No Restaurants, Museums and Theaters Catering to White Privilege
No Senior Citizens Gobbling Up Resources
No Crowds
No Schools
No Police
Vibrant Street Life Expressed in Art
Ongoing Decentralized Process of Wealth Transfer That Never Sleeps
B-B&Hammers: thanks for that SF video.
Homelessness here is the never-ending wretched winter of the Summer of Love.
Hilary Ronen et al are bad - but no one matches the assholery of Scott Wiener, a well-named former SF supe now a CA state senator. He authored a bill that forces any community in the state to accept low-income housing wherever they want to build it with no legal recourse - as Newsom once said - "whether you like it or not."
He still misses the point. The rich may object to the taxes, but it's not the main reason they're leaving. The reason the wealthy live in NYC is for its social life - the parties, the celebrities, the nightlife, the dining, the other rich and famous they can run into. Cuomo and de Blasio have destroyed the city's social life with their lockdown policies and the rioting, and that is really the only reason for the rich to return. As there is no prospect of that social scene resuming any time soon, there is no reason to go back. NYC is obsolete as a place of business for the service industry thanks to globalization and fast internet that can reliably handle group video conferencing.
"In Philadelphia in response to the Covid recession the mayor proposed raising taxes to help the government workers in the hard time. Who is the government supposed to help anyway?"
I know (I live just outside of Philly), it's insane, especially when you consider that ALL government workers are considered essential and NONE of them have lost even a fraction of a single paycheck. A lot of them have had nothing but a months long paid vacation in all this. What "hard time" are they having?
Why do liberals act surprised when this happens? Are they really this stupid or is it just a scam that they need to act surprised and will vow to change things to get the marks back at the tables? DeBlasio will need to be humiliated at the polls before any sentient adult would bother to venture back.
Josephbleau said...
I wonder where all the fresh faced high school girls who want to break into Broadway are riding buses to now?
A coworker of mine is the father of one of those young women. She was a dancer who moved to NYC after graduating high school around 2012. She couch surfed for a few years trying to find a gig. When she was old enough, she started working in a bar. The tips were great but the bar life isn't, so she became a Pilates instructor. However, the gym closed with COVID earlier this year. The owners kept paying the staff in hopes they'd be able to quickly reopen but that money ran out last month. Her roommates have already moved back home and she is looking to as well. She isn't happy about it at all.
I saw a joke which i found worked on so many levels:
"I have a joke about trickle down economics; but 99% of you wouldn't get it."
The even more hilarious part was the comments about the joke.
rcocean said...
50% tax rate? I doubt many of them pay that. The rich have their $$ in assets, and pay the capital gains tax when they sell their stock/bonds/real estate etc. what the rate, 15%?
please TRY to pay attention. Como didn't say a 50% tax rate; he say they PAY 50% of taxes. You probably still don't understand that those are two different things. i feel for you
As the Beatles said in "Taxman":
"If five percent appears too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
Cause I'm the Taxman
Yeah the taxman.
And you're working for no one but me".
Having large numbers of lefties leave New York for other states is obviously a problem for those states if they keep voting the same way they've been voting, though surely at least a few will learn from experience. However, it would be a good thing for New York.
Every lefty who leaves New York is not just one more lefty elsewhere, it's one fewer lefty in New York. So the more lefties leave New York, the more likely it is that sensible New Yorkers can take back power from the crazy left, at least on the state level.
And it's not just statewide offices. I've heard that NY is likely to lose a seat or two in the next census: if the lost seats are in the NYC area, and the retained seats are disproportionately upstate, that will help restore some degree of sanity. It will also be a good thing if both houses of the state legislature have a smaller proportion of their districts in NYC.
To sum up, every emigrant is an immigrant somewhere else, and vice versa, so there are two sides to any mass-emigration situation.
"If a company can function well enough with its office staff working from home for months at a time, there really is no reason why they have to be in the office. And if the employees do not have to be in the office, they do not have to live near the office."
The real problem is that if work from home is normalized, as it will be, it won't matter what country you live in either. Illegal immigration or visas will not be necessary as people in India can do all the white collar and tech jobs for 25% of cost. The kids of America will be undercut.
"If a company can function well enough with its office staff working from home for months at a time, there really is no reason why they have to be in the office."
This is still an open question. What happened after 9/11 was a lot of companies created "lily pad" offices to harden their organizations against complete annihilation if 9/11 style attacks became routine in the big cities. I know this because I built out many offices from 2004-2009. Then 2012-2018 there was consolidations and closure of the lily pad offices because company's went to densely packed open office set up.
I suspect that is where everyone will be going with this as WFH "works well enough" as an ad hoc solution but is not desirable from an organizational level. People are just not as productive as they were in an office setting and the productivity numbers bear this out.
But the handwriting is on the wall for progressive hell holes like NYC, LA & San Francisco. There is cheaper offices to be had away from shitholes with high taxation rates.
At my old place they've gone 100% remote and report that productivity is up as is used satisfaction.
Gusty Winds said...
What did he expect? The rich were going to wait around NYC for Robespierre to roll out the guillotine after the Bastille was emptied?
8/6/20, 7:48 AM
Two in the head for Bill the Red, Nipplering McGrandpakiller, then we'll talk. If not him, we'll settle for Soros. Don't give me that, we know you know people.
Well, if you weren't the jerk you are...they might. But, you ARE.
rocean: you miss the point. The high income pay 50% of the taxes collected - not at a 50% rate.
Does NY State have any wealth taxes? Other than property taxes which might be a wealth tax. Or inheritance tax which some people think is a wealth tax.
NY has a lot of different taxes on income, business, sales and more.
But do they actually tax wealth? My understanding is no.
Does anyone know?
And if they do not tax wealth, why do people talk about taxing the rich/wealthy? I seem to be missing something. Wealth and income are two completely different things. Jeff Bezos is a prime example. Incredibly wealthy via Amazon ownership. Not very high income at @$89,000 per year. A lot of NYC Cops and schoolteachers probably make more than that.
John Henry
A lot of people who couldn't imagine leaving NY have left and found it is kind of nice out in the rest of the country. Yeah, you need to own a car, but owning a car isn't such a hassle when you've got a driveway to park it in. Actually, having a car is kind of nice - no dealing with taxis and Ubers when you want to go somewhere. And the pizza, souvlaki, chinese, thai, Kosher food you thought you could only get in NY is available within half an hour of just about everywhere now. Look for the zip codes with Trader Joes and Whole Foods.
A lot of the usual 'I hate NY' going on here, mostly from those who have never lived in NYC. It's actually a very nice place to live, provided you prefer urban living. As for Cuomo's pitch to the wealthy, the reality is that NY State lives off NYC -- upstate has been depopulating for a long time, and that trend isn't about to change. In NYC, the main business that keeps everything afloat is finance -- hedge funds, investment banking, equity funds, the whole list -- all of which can be done from anywhere. The finance guys in turn keep the real estate market afloat (it's in the tank at the moment), with help from uber-wealthy foreigners who need a safe haven to park money/assets and don't care for London.
Cuomo's real problem is that you can live and work elsewhere and still be a part-time, non-tax paying resident of NYC and enjoy the pleasures of the City (and the Hamptons too, if that's your thing). You just can't spend more than 180 days in NY, and can't keep your business located here. It's very easy to relocate the business to Miami or some similar place, and fly back to NYC when/as the urge calls. Many prefer the climate in Miami and similar places especially from Nov - March and do just that. More are joining that crowd all the time. Cuomo needs to make living here sufficiently attractive to overcome those advantages to a crowd that already has more than one home (the other one typically in a warmer place) and highly values physical and financial security. He can't find a way to do it that he can get past the real crazies in the legislature.
impose a yuge "Moving Out Of NY" tax.
...yeah-- that's the ticket!
"1 percent of the population pays 50 percent of the taxes,”
And yet, I'll bet you every single Democrat that ever ran for any office there has told the voters "the rich need to start paying their fair share".
Imagine being in club with 100 members and 1 guy paid half the dues, and half the members paid nothing, yet everyone gets the same single vote on club business. Do you think that club would have a well-managed budget? How serious would most members consider a budget shortfall? What would they vote to do about it? That's our system, and everybody hates that one guy, wants him to pay more, and never even says "thanks".
If you really need New York, then the logical thing to do is live where it's safe and cheap and visit the city when you want to be all New Yorky. You go elsewhere on vacation for a reason. Make that pleasure and security your life most of the time.
Not very high income at @$89,000 per year
But he gets free delivery on everything.
@ 8/6/20, 12:33 PM wholelottasplainin' said...
As the Beatles said in "Taxman":
"If five percent appears too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
Cause I'm the Taxman
Yeah the taxman.
And you're working for no one but me".
Ironically, even after they found out in 1966 that their tax rate was 95%, The Beatles remained die-hard socialists. But, like most well heeled liberals of the “Do as I say, not as I do” crowd, they probably hired some good tax attorneys to protect their hard earned wealth that they got via a Capitalistic system. That said, they wrote some damned good music! Plus, “Taxman” is on one of Ann Althouse’s favorite albums, “Revolver”.
@ 8/6/20, 12:33 PM wholelottasplainin' said...
As the Beatles said in "Taxman":
"If five percent appears too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
Cause I'm the Taxman
Yeah the taxman.
And you're working for no one but me".
Ironically, even after they found out in 1966 that their tax rate was 95%, The Beatles remained die-hard socialists. But, like most well heeled liberals of the “Do as I say, not as I do” crowd, they probably hired some good tax attorneys to protect their hard earned wealth that they got via a Capitalistic system. That said, they wrote some damned good music! Plus, “Taxman” is on one of Ann Althouse’s favorite albums, “Revolver”.
I would love to live in the NY of Giuliani or Bloomberg providing that I had even more money than I have now. It is a very expensive city.
But now? What's the point of being a rich guy in NY if everything is closed down? NY state in general is in for a big surprise in the next ten years as people, even among the middle class, get the hell out. Working at home will let many do that now.
Jersey Fled said...
The Last thing we want is there fucking dysfunctional New Yorkers moving out of their beloved city and fucking the rest of the USA
The ones that are leaving aren't the dysfunctional ones."
As a Floridian I can tell you that isn't true. Too many of them come down here and vote Dim anyway. That's why Fl is a purple state.
John henry said...
Does NY State have any wealth taxes? Other than property taxes which might be a wealth tax. Or inheritance tax which some people think is a wealth tax."
Yes NY does. Which is why a lot of wealthy New Yorkers also move to Florida. In addition, as an FL resident they avoid NY State capital gains taxes.
Richard Dolan is absolutely correct. NYC is a great place to live- if you like living that way. I like NYC. I wouldn’t have a problem living there- if I could find an affordable place. My better half, OTOH, hates cities. She grew up in Baltimore, in the city. Though she insists it wasn’t “in the city” because it wasn’t downtown. I grew up mostly in NJ suburbs. With grandparents on Staten Island who I often visited, basically every weekend my last two years of HS. Which required traveling through Manhattan, and usually a late evening arrival because while I was there I went places.
The entire time I was in the Navy after we married she said she wanted to live on 5 acres in the middle of nowhere when I retired. Was quite an adaptation for my older children who had lived in suburbia in different states including a 4 year stretch in Navy housing. My youngest was born here.
What kind of adaptations? A 25% per year student turnover in a military town is not unusual. 2 or 3 of the 90 or so who graduated with my two youngest weren’t in first grade with them.
But why is upstate bleeding population? Because the Supreme Court said our founding fathers were really stupid and didn’t understand that the Constitution they wrote prohibited them from organizing states the same way as the federal government because of the invisible words”one man one vote “ they found embedded. I’m pretty certain it was right after Baker vs Carr when state budgets started exploding. Upstate is not NYC metropolitan area- but is governed by them from Albany with the same rules. NY County in NYC 72,056 people per square mile. Jefferson county 88.
While NYC provides most of the tax money to NYS- it also consumes most of it. NYC gets it’s power, water, and food from the rest of NY, the city is far from self sufficient.
When I said I wouldn’t have a problem living in NYC that would be if I were single and/or childless. I have no clue how the upper crust living there bring up sane offspring. But having met many in my life- I’m not certain they do.
Jeff Bezos is a prime example. Incredibly wealthy via Amazon ownership. Not very high income at @$89,000 per year. A lot of NYC Cops and schoolteachers probably make more than that.
You keep saying this, John — I've pointed its falsity out before — but you seem not to ever hear it. Why I couldn't say. Your overall point is good — as a theoretical tax matter — just the example you provide of Bezos in this regard is flat wrong.
The reason is, of course, because Bezos does not depend on his official Amazon salary for his total income.
As the Amazon entrepreneur declared to Time back in 2017, Bezos' intention every year is to sell off a billion dollars or more worth of Amazon stock, to plunge the proceeds into further incremental funding for his private space program, Blue Origin.
Indeed, exactly a year ago as it happens there was a report Bezos had just sold an even greater allotment of $2.8 billion worth of Amazon stock for investment in Blue Origin. After taxes, that should be a very sizable hunk of change. But the income taxes on such a massive quantity of money should also be enormous — close to $1 billion presuming a 35% rate.
That's a lot more taxes than most of us pay.
TRUMP TO CITY: DROP DEAD
Love to see that headline again.
A lot of the usual 'I hate NY' going on here, mostly from those who have never lived in NYC.
Hilarious. No, I have never lived there. But I have been there multiple times; enough to know I would NEVER live there.
Walking out of the Waldorf Astoria and starting to walk to the Four Seasons, four blocks away. The doorman, "Sir, let me call you a taxi." Me, "Oh, it's OK. It's only a couple of blocks." Doorman, "SIR. Let me call you a taxi!"
That was 1985 or so.
Bronx Supreme Court 1995.
Me, "Guard, why are there no benches to sit on?" Guard, "Because they would be filled by bums !"
Jury, "The the judge. Can you request that Juror #7 bathe? We cannot stand the smell in the jury room."
I spent years flying another 6 hours to London to see shows and go to restaurants.
In NYC we had cocktails at the NY Yacht Club and saw shows but I would NEVER live there. London, these days , is almost as bad since the Muslims took over.
Ha! No sooner had I posted the piece just up-thread about Jeff Bezos' stock sales last year ($2.8 billion in Amazon stock reportedly sold exactly a year ago), when the news came in just now about Bezos' selling $3 billion more now — plus an additional $4 billion sold earlier this year. That's $9.8 billion in Amazon stock that Bezos dropped within the last 12 months — while, meanwhile, Amazon's stock price has been going up! Only a relatively small proportion of the huge amount cleared will actually go to Blue Origins, no doubt.
There is a large cultural transition happening post-COVID the elite appear to be missing, indicated by their lack of awareness when it comes to how education is already moving from reliance on government systems and the asset drain depopulating the cities will present is another symptom of the Big Shift. There are other markers beyond these two. TWISI distrust in Media turning lately to blaming Media for dividing America is another piece, congruent with the unwillingness to tell pollsters or coworkers the truth, if the subject is politics. The elite do not even see how much power has shifted away from them in the Trump era already, mostly by virtue of the very actions the Elite have taken and continue to take. Their petty tyranny rules the day but the ground itself is shifting.
MMcNiel.
He's simply transferring from one investment to another. Only capital gains involved.
I wonder if Bezos' stock sales also have something to do with his divorce.
Its the incompetence stupid
“ Walking out of the Waldorf Astoria and starting to walk to the Four Seasons, four blocks away. The doorman, "Sir, let me call you a taxi." Me, "Oh, it's OK. It's only a couple of blocks." Doorman, "SIR. Let me call you a taxi!"
“That was 1985 or so.”
It wasn’t just NYC at that time. Got almost exactly the same thing in downtown Dallas at that time. What was weird was that the downtown went from white to black at dusk. Downtown was mostly white during the day, but when I went out anyway for a walk, I had the only white face on the street.
Nothing new here from Cuomo. NYC used to have a vibrant manufacturing base in the '60s and '70s but politicians back then, just like those now, chased the producers out. Since the '90s, through to date, NYC has also lost a substantial number of the financial sector to surrounding states like NJ, CT, and upstate NY, further hallowing out NYC's tax base. CA, where I live, has also experienced similar results, with manufacturing, aerospace and high tech leaving the State of CA for other states. Consequently, California’s major revenue sources have shifted over time. Until 1995, the biggest was property taxes Today, it’s personal income taxes.
"...tax avoidance..." resulting in "...budget holes..." is a frequent issue in CA. During the Great Recession, the capital-gains taxes that sustained CA in good times plummeted. School districts handed out 30,000 pink slips to teachers, and the state was so cash-strapped it gave out IOUs when it couldn’t pay some of its bills. In 2018, latest data available, the top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (37.3 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (30.5 percent). The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.9 percent individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.7 percent). CA Legislature proposed, on July 30, 2020, a new higher tax rate on the wealthy. The tax would only effect the top 0.5% of California taxpayers. But that small group of super-earners — many of them in tech — pay 40% of the state’s tax revenues, according to California’s Franchise Tax Board. The tax hikes would be the tipping point for many taxpayers,” said Robert Gutierrez, president of the California Taxpayers Association, which advocates lower taxes, “prompting them to book a one-way trip to one of the 49 states with lower taxes.” With many tech companies now allowing executives to work remotely for the next year, top earners could more easily leave the state and work in places with no income tax, like Nevada and Texas. If the new tax is approved in August, it would be retroactive for this year and apply to income earned since January 2020. CA politicians acting to further hallow out it's already stressed tax base. Idiocy on display!
Richard Dolan said..."...A lot of the usual 'I hate NY' going on here, mostly from those who have never lived in NYC. It's actually a very nice place to live..." 8/6/20, 2:12 PM
Well, I lived there for 10 years! Got my college degree and started my banking career in NYC. My experience is the exact opposite of your opinion. Moreover, the 'Middle Class' has been moving out for decades and is no longer a viable tax contributor. Furthermore, so many finance related businesses (which you list) have also moved to other states: Carl Icahn (NYC) to FL; David Tepper (NJ) to FL; Eddie Lampert (NJ) to FL; and Paul Tudor Jones (CT) to FL. Notice that among them where original NYC tax refugees going to NJ, CT and upstate NY. Thus, further hallowing out of the City's one remaining viable tax base. Democratic politicians just can't help themselves - whether in NYC, NJ or CT.
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