That's a question I had after writing the previous post, which made me think: This is like religion, but it's the most depressing religion in the world — no salvation, no joy....
Isn't it characteristic of religion that there's something rewarding for you, the believer — some uplift in the present or bliss in the afterlife? No, maybe sometimes there's only compulsion for fear of pain and punishment.
I googled my question — What's the most depressing religion in the world? — and here's some of what popped up:
1. "Are religious people more depressed?/A new study finds a high correlation" — by Amanda Marcotte (Salon): "Certainly there’s some reason to believe that if society protects people against some of the worst causes of depression, such as the fear of falling into poverty, that society will have more atheists in it. Stable, egalitarian societies repeatedly prove to be places where the atheist message takes off really well. We know that on a national level, if people feel like they have control over their lives and there’s hope in the here and now, those nations tend to have more atheists. So why wouldn’t that be true on an individual level?"
2. "'Spiritual But Not Religious' Is Associated With Depression/Recent research shows that spirituality predicts depressive symptoms" (Psychology Today): "The risk of depression was over a third greater than for those in whom religious belief was higher than spirituality.... While religion represents deeply rooted belief and practice, usually coming from family and cultural background, spirituality represents a departure from that traditional, familiar support. People seeking spiritual answers may be coming from a position of distress, searching for answers or looking for relief from mental suffering.... Directed spiritual practices which include optimistic and other-oriented approaches, for example those emphasizing gratitude, forgiveness and compassion for self and other, are more useful when it comes to improving overall well-being...."
3. "Religious affiliation and major depressive episode in older adults: a cross-sectional study in six low- and middle- income countries" (BMC Public Health): "We observed no association between having a religious affiliation (vs. no affiliation) and the odds of [major depressive episode] in older adults. In most cases minorities had higher odds of MDE as compared with the majority religion, but the associations were only significant for Muslims in Ghana and for Muslims, Hindus and Other in South Africa."
4. "Hidden Brain: Does Going To Church Improve Your Mental Health?" (NPR): "[I]ncreasing religiosity by one standard deviation - which is going from not going to church at all to attending church once a week - decreases the probability of being at risk for moderate to severe depression by as much as 20%.... And... if religiosity does help your mental health, why is that? Is it being part of a religious community? Is it the rituals? Is it the belief? Can atheists get some of those things outside of religion?"
5. "Afghanistan is the most depressed country on Earth" (BigThink): "As suggested by Afghanistan's abnormally high rate of depression, decades of armed conflict and economic misery can have a devastating effect on the mental health of a population. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for Libya, Honduras, and Palestine. A bit more puzzling is the strong representation of Middle-Eastern countries that are relatively peaceful and affluent: Bahrain, the UAE, Qatar, Jordan and Kuwait. With just over 8 percent of its population clinically depressed, the Netherlands is the only European country to make the Top 10."
None of that is much help answering my question, but I'm not surprised there's so little discussion of the topic. It's generally bad etiquette to go beyond saying your religion is a source of joy and onto the topic of why someone else's religion is dark and dreary and only makes life worse. But I'm trying to talk about religion substitutes, notably this "White Fragility" cult practice, which is snowballing in our country and on the verge of becoming a compulsory state religion.
July 16, 2020
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I guess an argument could be made for Islam being the most depressing since there's no free will, Allah is absolute and everything is written.
The collective mind-suck that is modern leftwing neo-marxist progressivism.
Leave your free speech at the door. Make payable to the DNC.
The Sadducees lack of belief in an immortal soul must have been dispiriting.
Life is suffering.
Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic. The progressive dysfunction, collateral damage, and secular corruption forced by debasement of human life, human philosophy and enterprise, conflation of logical domains, and the normalization of a religious philosophy that is internally, externally, and mutually inconsistent, cannot be underestimated.
"'Spiritual But Not Religious' Is Associated With Depression/Recent research shows that spirituality predicts depressive symptoms"
Define "spiritual". Tarot cards? For that matter, define "religious".
This kind of "research" always seems predicated on a set of biased assumptions that are nowhere to be seen in my life.
Who knew that life in Afghanistan wasn't a non-stop howl of hilarity?
The question is why are people specifically white women (well to do) so attracted to the religion of anti-racism? What do they get out of it? Is it a class marker? I don't see many truck driver wives taking anti-racism classes or heading them.
I find the whole thing bizarre and so does my wife, but then she's not white. My guess is it allows the believer to feel good about themselves, look down on bad-whites, and costs them nothing. No doubt many of them understand, even if subconsciously, that by pushing anti-racism, they are splitting the working class and ensuring their own prosperity. Like their support for the "poor immigrants" they know it puts money in their purse.
How long until libraries put quotas on what books you must borrow? Before they track which ebooks you actually read? I think in blue cities in blue states, not that long.
How long before we get moves to disenfranchise “white supremacists” who refuse “fragility” training? Not as long as 4 years, if the Democrats sweep this election.
Progressives. Their religion is bringing them, and everybody around them down.
The most depressing religion is Darwinism or a secular worldview that everything came out of the big bang. What joy can possibly come from the thought that life has no meaning and that you’re just a zebra waiting for a lion to eat you
BleachBit-and-Hammers said...
The collective mind-suck that is modern leftwing neo-marxist progressivism.
Leave your free speech at the door. Make payable to the DNC.
7/16/20, 9:27 AM
Didn't read your comment first but we had the same thought!!!!
Liberalism. A secular religion, but one nonetheless.
As Groucho() Marx wrote: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."
Islam being the most depressing since there's no free will
It doesn't bother me that "free will" is imaginary.
The question is why are people specifically white women (well to do) so attracted to the religion of anti-racism? What do they get out of it? Is it a class marker? I don't see many truck driver wives taking anti-racism classes or heading them.
Both a class marker and social positioning within their peer group.
"Oh, I know He works in mysterious ways, but if I worked that mysteriously I'd get fired."
White guilt.
"Spiritual, but not religious" is a dating profile line used by insecure, airhead women.
Amanda Marcotte is one of the most miserable people on earth. Depressed? I would say she's either borderline or right there. Her opinion on religious people is not important.
There are many studies showing that the faithful are happier, less depressed. But I would say that these days, there are no more depressed, depressing, hand-wringing, miserable, hate-filled people than those on the left. And the farther left you go, the more miserable they are. It's empirical. You can see and hear it all around you, every day, in every corner of Western Civ.
Just want to comment on your courageous blogging during these times. Seriously. Even to question "white fragility" can be dangerous as too many people already have found out. Thank you and know that each time I'm reminded of your courage I'll be saying a prayer for you. (Pity that it took this current political climate for me to get around to praying for you but that's the kind of flawed believer I am.)
global warming
"I guess an argument could be made for Islam being the most depressing since there's no free will, Allah is absolute and everything is written."
I lived in Thailand for a year and the Buddhists believe all is fate. This seems to be liberating for them and reduces stress. What happens is not a result of your actions. They don't really believe that, but it is in the background.
Buddhists seem happy, in Mexico they are catholic and bitter and sad because guilt tells them it is all their fault.
Life beyond death is quite an optimistic idea -- a belief that we are eternal. Judaeo/Christian theology says man was created in the image of God. That we are all Gods in our creation may be the ultimate in optimism -- bordering on narcissism I suppose.
I'm not surprised that the largely sectarian scientific community ignores the role deep faith plays in quality of life. It doesn't support the toxic ideology that has seeped into all things academic.
Intellectually inclined religiosity is a belief in the transcendent -- a necessary component of enlightenment in my opinion. Atheists believe that transcendence and theological archetypes are like falsified historical documentaries.
"What's the most depressing religion in the world?"
Depends on what the meaning of "depressing," "religion," and "in the world" is.
Though it's not "in the world" anymore, and death is not exactly depressing, I nominate the People's Temple. Measured by highest percentage of adherents dead as a direct result of involvement in the "religion." Many of them POC, of course; since BLM more, the PT gets extra depression points.
As illustrated by the PT, prog perversions of Christianity are most depressing.
Greek Orthodox. Their services last for frigging ever. I longed for the sweet release of death. Come to think of it, I had the same feeling at the last bar mitzvah I foolishly attended.
"Both a class marker and social positioning within their peer group."
Are you saying it is the modern instantiation of temperance leagues?
The issue of mental health has been raised lately in terms of whether religious services are an "essential" activity.
I tentatively think that the sine qua non for what counts as a religion is belief in a non-mortal, but not necessarily eternal, soul or essence. This can cover things like reincarnation, or the Thetans of Scientology, as well as more popular religions. Many religions also include “arguments that admit of no refutation” and Robin DiAngelo and her ilk certainly seem to be aiming for one of those.
Ken B said...
How long until libraries put quotas on what books you must borrow? Before they track which ebooks you actually read? I think in blue cities in blue states, not that long.
Hundreds and hundreds of books regarding American history including Native Americans like Sitting Bull and Famous Sioux Chiefs, foreign nations far and wide, the Holocaust and even Mister Rogers, found in dumpster behind Sunrise Park Middle School in White Bear Lake, MN. No sign of any fiction books, just non-fiction regarding history, cultures, wars, tyranny, communism, politics, etc. they are trying to erase history
"Can atheists get some of those things outside of religion?"
Of course
see 'Liberalism. A secular religion, but one nonetheless.'
If I decide not to partake in an established religion it will impact me in the afterlife.
Remember their goal to get you to heaven etc etc. If I chose not to partake they will leave me alone.
All the consequences for not partaking in 'American Liberalism ' or "Bolshevism" are here and now. The 'Inquisition' imposed by these people will be endless. They will never stop.
They have no concern for any possible afterlife. Re-education camps here we come.
I see the bigthink people are really woke. As in this, "Or, as your Right-wing Uncle is wont to proclaim: People in poor countries don't have the leisure to be depressed! It's part of his pessimist cultural determinism: wealth breeds weakness, poverty requires strength. Hello, civilizational collapse!"
Maybe we should have the feds cut the food, water and energy supplies off to New York City, so it can earn a rank on the study.
It doesn't bother me that "free will" is imaginary.
The subject of whether free will exists is certainly odd. Quantum mechanics suggests that the universe isn't exactly deterministic but probabalistic. Conversely most monotheistic religions seem to say that free will does not exist. But they may allow that though God knows all outcomes, His knowledge has no affect on a particullar descision made by a mortal (which I guess is something called Weak theological determinism?) so it's sort of like free will but then again not really?
But from a human standpoint, day to day just living your life, whether or not free will actually exists is probably generally irrelevant. It only becomes an issue when you think about it and if you find comfort in whether it does or does not exist.
You would think that market research for Big Pharma's anti-depressants would have the answer to this, but it's probably a trade secret.
As suggested by Afghanistan's abnormally high rate of depression, decades of armed conflict and economic misery can have a devastating effect on the mental health of a population.
DUH!!!!!
Did someone actually take the time to 'originate' that thought and then think that they have discovered some big secret?
Did they get tired of their own navel gazing obsession?
“Just want to comment on your courageous blogging during these times. Seriously. Even to question "white fragility" can be dangerous as too many people already have found out.“
Thanks. I do have the luxury of being retired... and of having already acquired the immunity of getting rejected for not supporting Kerry opin the 2004 and manifold other sins and wickedness.
I'd like to echo Darcy's complement, you are stop down reading because of your courage.
Back to religiosity. My wife is a Jehovah's Witness and they are religious. But the thing I've noticed is that we have moved probably 5 times in our lifetime. Wherever she goes, she has an immediate family ready made. The first time she walks into the hall, she is comforted by hundreds of "family" members.
They check on her well-being, they visit in hospitals, they visit immediately when we move to a new place. It is frankly, quite amazing really.
I, as a very non-religious person benefit as well, as they also come to visit me when laid up for example.
If you are an adherent to a religion out of duty and that doesn't give you joy, enlightenment, and personal growth & satisfaction, well, that would be depressing. I abandoned my Roman Catholic religious affiliation in my mid teens because participating didn't give me those things. Of course, I wouldn't have articulated it that way then. More like it was a rebellion against the myriad rules and obligations that I didn't agree with or understand. Having a run-in with a pedo parish priest didn't help either.
White Fragility and BLM and so forth seem to me more cult-like than being similar to mainstream religions.
Roz Chast also had a comic (TL;DR for me) there, about which she says:
"I’m an agnostic. I would be an atheist, except that when I was a young ’un I took L.S.D. a few times, and, especially the first time, had an experience that made me not so sure of my atheism*. When I am old and farther along Decrepit Highway than I am now, I want to try them mind-expanding chemicals again. Because what will there be to lose?"
**It had the opposite effect on me.
Sat Chit Ananda
Like someone said, not all religions have a god, but they do all have a devil.
The problem may not be one of religion, but rather of being cast as one. Orthodoxy in various forms provides some soul sustenance to people that heterodoxy simply can't match. From this I take that, as a religion, heterodoxy is probably the most depressing: it forces you into a constant state of uncertainty and carries with it a responsibility to address dissonance between perception and expectations. As a religion, it just doesn't give people the warm and fuzzies. And that's the competition now, not other approaches or ideologies or even ideas, but heterodoxy is in competition for hearts and minds with faiths. I think there really is something to McWhorter's thesis, and also to the notion that we are in the midst of another great awakening in the US, only this time with explicitly secular religious faiths exciting people.
In history we would almost have to go with whatever the Aztecs and Mayans practiced-along with lesser variations practiced by nearly every tribe in both North and South America when they got to the top of the food chain. While religious human sacrifice was occasionally practiced in Europe, Asia, and Africa, the large scale practice seen in the Americas was not seen elsewhere in the world.
Of course we could ask- is the sanctity of abortion a religious or a political belief?
I think it's a draw.
Norse mythology.
Correlation is not causation. I think some people turn to religion as a way to wrestle with their inner demons.
But I'm trying to talk about religion substitutes, notably this "White Fragility" cult practice, which is snowballing in our country and on the verge of becoming a compulsory state religion.
That's a bit too wordy to embroider on a red baseball cap.
Does it matter if a religion is established by God, gods, or mortal gods? A philosopher is a philosopher is a philosopher. If you don't share their faith, then what follows is a voluntary risk, perhaps small, perhaps large, we don't know (thus the logical domain: faith). In the interim, judge a religious (ethical, etc.) philosophy by its principles. Does it discern between normalization, tolerance, and rejection? Is it internally, externally, and mutually consistent. Does it normalize dysfunction and debase the human condition? What are the other metrics by which humans judge their codes, laws, rules, and regulations?
Liberal-feminism.
Their entire world-view and validation depends upon the deaths of millions of the unborn.
When Planned Parenthood is your church and Margaret Sanger is your savior, life is dark.
"Greek Orthodox. Their services last for frigging ever."
The food festival is terrific, though.
@ Althouse
So you have F-U money?
"...and manifold other sins and wickedness."
Do tell : )
Judaeo/Christian theology... That we are all Gods in our creation may be the ultimate in optimism -- bordering on narcissism I suppose.
The theology records that there is one God, who has extra-universal origin and universal dominion, and we share a common spirit (coherent "energy"). We only know our purpose on Earth ("proving ground") through religious (i.e. moral) guidance. That said, this is not the gods or mortal gods of the secular, mortal plain who are both still constrained through a universal consensus (e.g. physics) - at least in our neck of the woods.
we know there will be persecutions for our faith, the manner is more obscured than usual,
This kind of "research" always seems predicated on a set of biased assumptions that are nowhere to be seen in my life.
Life is evolutionary (i.e. chaotic). Theology records one fitness function. Religion provides guidance to maximize, perhaps optimize it. The secular theology (e.g. Gaia, Nature) is limited to reproduce and dominate.
Oy gevalt, you have to ask which religion is most depressing?
Scene 7: God Gives Arthur a Stern Talking To
[clop clop clop]
[boom]
[boom]
[angels sing]
GOD: Arthur! Arthur, King of the Britons! Oh, don't grovel!
[singing stops]
One thing I can't stand, it's people groveling.
ARTHUR: Sorry.
[boom]
GOD: And don't apologize. Every time I try to talk to someone it's 'sorry this' and 'forgive me that' and 'I'm not worthy'.
[boom]
What are you doing now?!
ARTHUR: I'm averting my eyes, O Lord.
GOD: Well, don't. It's like those miserable Psalms-- they're so depressing. Now, knock it off!
ARTHUR: Yes, Lord.
GOD: Right! Arthur, King of the Britons, your Knights of the Round Table shall have a task to make them an example in these dark times.
ARTHUR: Good idea, O Lord!
GOD: 'Course it's a good idea!
“ "...and manifold other sins and wickedness." “Do tell : )”
Sometimes I do Book of Common Prayer humor...
“We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness, which we from time to time most grievously have committed, by thought, word, and deed, against thy divine Majesty, provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us.”
Leftist Collectivism is the most depressing religion.
"Sometimes I do Book of Common Prayer humor..."
I was hoping Meade was getting more bang for the buck than that : )
Tom T. said...
Oy gevalt, you have to ask which religion is most depressing?
Okay, you made me laugh with this one. As for Greek Orthodox services lasting forever- I've only been to one. On Crete. Was standing shore patrol one fine Sunday morning and our group was walking by a church as mass was going on. The greeter(?) or someone motioned us to come on up and enter. So we did. Standing room only. We stayed for a half hour or so. Noted after a few minutes that males were on one side, females the other- but they didn't worry about our mixed sex group. I recognized everything that was going on - very similar to Catholic high mass - but didn't understand the words- it's like they were speaking Greek. (I just had to say that.) We did notice people were wandering in and out throughout. Wandered by again a few hours later- it as still going on. But from what we had witnessed with the wandering ins and outs- a wholly different group of people were inside. No one seemed depressed by the length- since it apparently isn't necessary nor required to stay for the whole thing to meet your weekly mass requirement.
The old article by Amanda Marcotte is typical of her work: Lazy and shoehorned into her already existing view of the world. Shall we list the sins?
She was essentially cribbing her article off of the slightly better piece which appeared in the Huffington Post. That article named but did not link to the source material.
The source material conflates religiousness with spirituality. The two are more-or-less opposite from a mental health perspective. Numerous studies show that religious people are less depressed and better able to handle adversity. The opposite for the spiritual. It is almost as if the religious have found a framework of support for life's difficulties while the spiritual are seeking, but haven not found such a framework.
When Planned Parenthood is your church and Margaret Sanger is your savior, life is dark.
I think so. Not the first, second, third, or fourth choice, but Pro-Choice/abortion, the wicked solution.
Which religion is most depressing? I think it's close to a three-way tie among:
1) Marxism
2) Marxism's latest splinter group, Wokeness
3) Islam
They are particularly depressing for non-adherents, since the key tenets of each make our lives poorer and more dangerous.
Having read the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Sumerian religion would be a definite finalist. On the whole, the gods are capricious jerks, especially Ishtar. If Ishtar decides that she wants a romance with you, you are absolutely doomed whether you accept or not, and it appears the rest of the pantheon would never tell her "no" once she got in a rage. The afterlife is a "nothing after death" where no matter what you did in life you get to sit in silent misery and boredom for eternity. It does provide a good motivation for Gilgamesh's desire for immortality, so it has that going for it.
The ancient Greek religion was not a lot better with all-too-human gods behaving badly and the original afterlife was another "nothing after death," though perhaps not quite as bad as the Sumerian one. Over time the afterlife evolved to add equivalents of Heaven and Hell as well as what was basically "Super-Heaven."
The Norse religion is incredibly violent. It also has an end of the world prophecy that is inevitable and results in basically everyone dying. There is a claim that the world will be reborn from the ashes of Ragnarok, but that may have been a late addition influenced by Christianity. It's pretty much eat, drink, screw, and maim until you die.
The Aztec religion's basic tenet was that if there were not a sufficient number of human sacrifices, the sun would go out and everyone would die. Per their mythology, this humanity thing had been tried four times previously and had ended badly each time, so it was pretty much human sacrifice or death. Of course, you could always get other people to die for your gods, something the Mexica figured out. There's a reason why Cortes found so many allies when he arrived.
The thing about depressing religions is they only find an audience in one of the following situations:
1. There are no other options.
2. The general worldview is so terrible that even a depressing religion is an improvement.
3. The religion's followers are so successful that non-believers either decide they also want that level of success or they have no choice as the successful people have conquered them and are keen on executing heretics.
Gospace already noted the Mayans. I'd put them on the list.
So “peaceful and prosperous” tyrannies still make the Most Depressed Top Ten?
The devil you say!
Mormonism is quite depressing.
As soon as I really understood the concept of karma, reincarnation and samsara I couldn't wrap my head around how depressing it seemed to me. The atman simply cycles through lives of suffering, never remembering its mistakes, but paying the price for every single one? No thank you.
Birkelism, the belief Birkel is a model to us all.
It has one adherent. He's a bore.
Ahem. . . .
Amanda Marcotte??
Enough said.
Amanda Marcotte, Amanda Marcotte? Is this the same Amanda Marcotte Ann had a run in with years ago?
Thank you for attending services, Ken B.
All cvnts are welcome.
MASK WEARING
is the most oppressive religion
zero value, all punishment
Wonder if normies are distressed that the rituals of the new religion are primarily about their own humiliation
> The trainers tell white employees they must "provide unconditional solidarity" for people of color.
> Whites "don't get to decide when someone is being too emotional, too rash, [or] too mean" and cannot protest if a POC "responds to their oppression in a way [they] don't like."
Perhaps,policraticus you do not entirely understand these concepts?
Can I get a witness?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAm_0LZteCQ&t=975s
"it AIN'T spiritual if it Ain't FUNNY!"
Dannion Brinkley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElIa7N_0XUc
What joy can possibly come from the thought that life has no meaning and that you’re just a zebra waiting for a lion to eat you
To paraphrase a Nightwish song I recently heard, "How amazing is it that we wake for decades after a 100 million year sleep." (yes, age of the universe is wildly wrong, but it's a lyric not a thesis.)
In a lot of ways, it is far, far more amazing to be here as a random result than having been created (directly, indirectly, or via simulation). "Joyful" may be a bit of a stretch, but there is a certain joy in simply existing as opposed to having never existed.
Can you find joy from the thought that you were not aborted before being born? It's a bit thin, but it is something.
“We acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickedness, which we from time to time most grievously have committed, by thought, word, and deed, against thy divine Majesty, provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us.”
If you are Dutch Reformed you are OK because you are stamped OK at birth and don't have to do anything in life except be an asshole.
I guess the Shakers weren't necessarily depressed, but they don't seem to have found a winning formula. Maybe they get a special place in heaven. That would make it all worth it. In the absence of that, however, it was a bad bargain..... I know about Pascal's Gamble, it does seem that some religious people, Trappist monks say, would need a certain amount of festive afterlife to make their sacrifices worthwhile.....I can't remember much from my Catholic upbringing, but I do remember that after the Kyrie Eleison was said you could book. It wasn't much, but it saved a few minutes off the Mass time.
It does seem that the more depressed and chaotic your life becomes, then the greater need you have for religion. Maybe the religious fanatics in Afghanistan are creating the preconditions necessary for religious fanaticism in Afghanistan.
There were a lot of true believers during the Thirty Years War. That was one of the high points of belief in Christendom.
Ken B said ... Birkelism, the belief Birkel is a model to us all. It has one adherent.
Ken,
You made a fool of yourself with your COVID hysteria, but we all make mistakes. Creating a feud with Birkel is another mistake.
Think of Ronald Reagan's advice.
“The subject of whether free will exists is certainly odd. Quantum mechanics suggests that the universe isn't exactly deterministic but probabalistic. Conversely most monotheistic religions seem to say that free will does not exist. But they may allow that though God knows all outcomes, His knowledge has no affect on a particullar descision made by a mortal (which I guess is something called Weak theological determinism?) so it's sort of like free will but then again not really?”
But what is the point of the opposite - strong theological determinism? Why struggle to worship in a certain way, to make certain sacrifices for your faith, if your God already knows what you are going to do?
My parents lost my youngest brother to a stupid climbing accident. He was a senior at Dartmouth, being heavily recruited by the top engineering schools. He was also the most devout of their five boys. This was the boy after my mother’s heart. He did everything perfectly. Until he didn’t. She would never admit that he was her favorite, but he clearly was. And then, one day, he was gone. What helped all of us was a book titled When Bad Things Happen to Good People.
When Bad Things Happen to Good People (ISBN 1-4000-3472-8) is a 1981 book by Harold Kushner, a Conservative rabbi. Kushner addresses in the book one of the principal problems of theodicy, the conundrum of why, if the universe was created and is governed by a God who is of a good and loving nature, there is nonetheless so much suffering and pain in it - essentially, the evidential problem of evil. The book argues for theistic finitism. Kushner proposes a finite God solution to the problem of evil. God is benevolent but not all-powerful to prevent evil.
I think that section in Wikipedia misses what I read to be Kushner’s message, which was not that God couldn’t intervene, but rather that he choses not to intervene, essentially theistic finitism, in order to give us free will.
Both Judaism and Christianity are based on free will. Both the Old and New Testaments are filled with God posing challenges, choices, to us. As a Christian, it is our choices that earn us eternal salvation. It doesn’t really matter if he is omnipotent and omniscient, and chooses himself not to act, or he really isn’t either, but is instead limited in his power. What matters are the choices we make. Our free will.
I do find it interesting the difference in results of that Judeo-Christian theology and beliefs, and the closely related theology of Islam. Islam preaches submission to God, and the result is a level of fatalism that is much more prominent than in either of the other two. And a result of that is an almost complete lack of scientific advancement over at least the last 500 years, and possibly much longer. While Jews are the most numerous, per capita, of recipients of Nobel Prizes for science, Muslims are almost completely missing from its laureates. They have even fallen far behind the ConfuciusIan Chinese. About all that religion seems good for is killing pagans and infidels in order to advance it.
"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded
as a bad move.
Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God,
though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the
entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being
called the Great Green Arkleseizure.
The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they
call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, are small blue
creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore
unique in being the only race in history to have invented the
aerosol deodorant before the wheel.
However, the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory is not widely
accepted outside Viltvodle VI and so, the Universe being the
puzzling place it is, other explanations are constantly being
sought."
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy
Amanda Marcotte is a blithering idiot.
The Kushnerian Theodicy.
That book was in almost every classroom or synagogue or home library that I ever saw as a kid. There was a scarily anti-theodicy trend in post-Holocaust Jewish theology: if God is great, then God is not good. If God is good, then not great. Kushner was having none of that nihilism.
Reformed Jewish funerals are pretty depressing. They don't necessarily believe in an after life. Unitarian services are too, they are all about how bad things are these days, but they have good coffee.
The most depressing state is probably the absence of religion, whether that be the atheist or the agnostic. Substitute religions in part attempt to fill that hole.
It really shouldn't be surprising religion substitutes are all the rage in a time when a sizable proportion of the population professes no belief in any organized religion. Religion is the glue that holds a civilization together, so given we've spent the last several decades tearing down the old religion, something else has to fill the void. These pseudo-religions are unlikely to work for any period of time because they are extremely hostile to logic and reason, require cult-like adherence that would make the Crusaders blush, and offer no hope, repentance, or redemption to those they consider sinners.
In the end the traditional religions are likely to become appealing again to people seeking to escape the madness of the pseudo-religions. Hinduism doesn't have much of a foothold here, but Islam certainly could fill in the gap in a population tired of pronoun wars, woke wars, climate change wars, and gender wars. Such was the case in the ancient Middle East, where the rather simple Islamic monotheism must have seemed appealing after centuries of Christological controversies. If you don't much relish the prospect of Islam being dominant in the future, it would be best to get praying that Christianity wakes up from its century-long slide and returns to being something that would be familiar to people living in the 19th century.
The Cult of the State. Highest body count ever. And judging by the comments of the Cult's adherents that appear on this blog, it attracts the stupidest people.
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