"Rogan's podcast is available on YouTube, which has removed other content for equating being trans to having a mental disorder." That's the headline at Media Matters, and it's woefully inaccurate. I can say that because I've listened to the entire Rogan/Shrier discussion, and they are clearly supportive of transgender people but are focusing on a set of young girls who say they are transgender (and who can quickly get drugs and surgery) when there is reason to think they are mistaken.
Once you get beyond the headline, the Media Matters article gets into the details with lots of quotes and clips, and yet it ends by characterizing the interview as hate speech and arguing that it should be removed from YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.
Please understand what is being talked about here before commenting. This should be a new discussion.
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९४ टिप्पण्या:
"Joe Rogan and guest Abigail Shrier equate being trans to having anorexia, joining a cult, and 'demonic possession.'"
And?
"We are what we always were in Salem, but now the little crazy children are jangling the keys of the kingdom, and common vengeance writes the law!”
I am Laslo.
"when there is reason to think they are mistaken"
Questions: 1. when is there not? 2. should anyone under 18/21 be allowed to make that decision 3. who pays?
Being trans is cool right now for some people. I've heard of incidents where one young person decides they're trans and suddenly there's an outbreak of it. Perhaps the first is legitimately transgender, but for the others it's the power of suggestion.
Worse are the parents who are imposing it on their children. I know of at least two parents in my neighborhood who are kind of oddball lefty types (one a gender studies academic, the other a kind of nature hippy type), who have decided that their young boys 3 and 5 years old must be transgender. They've convinced these poor children, that they don't have a gender and if someone unknowingly refers to them as boys the kids get upset.
I suspect it started as kids doing something girly and it was misinterpreted. Sometimes boys like to play with mom's makeup or wear girly hat, but that's just curiosity. Just as it would be wrong to stop them and say "Oh no, they'll turn out gay" it's equally wrong to conclude they must be transgender.
Oddly, I've not heard of this happening with girls. Perhaps it's because girls are encouraged to do boy things so much that no one thinks a girl is transgender just because she's playing with toy cars or interested in construction sites or whatever.
One can only but wish that Media Matters had finally gotten any reporting correct.
Alas and alack.
Must be a slow news day at Media Matters. Rogan's maintained the position that there needs to be more oversight regarding access to hormones and surgery for a long time now. This is just the first time he's devoted an entire podcast to it.
Fabulous, and brave, conversation.
Cancel culture has become like a crude AI. It searches for certain buzz words and the default is delete.
No consideration of context or attempt to hear the whole story let alone the "other" side.
FWIW, the idea than a teenager,say 14, can decide to take this HUGE step and get parental, doctor and societal blessing is frightening. No questions, no counseling...
I watched this a few days ago. They are talking about peer pressure among social groups of teenage girls and young women. Rogan, the gym rat, is deeply disturbed by the idea of teenage girls taking testosterone, since he knows the negative consequences of juicing.
Since this time it is transitioning, any complaints about what is happening are labeled "hate speech." But Rogan and his guest are clearly talking about teenage girls and their susceptibility to making life altering decisions and actions through peer pressure.
What I found kind of odd and maybe sad, is the percentages they give for the number of girls transitioning seems to mirror the number of girls you would expect to figure out they are gay. Is there going to be a "lesbianless" generation of women that altered their bodies to make themselves more appealing to other women?
I listened to the podcast and I would summarize it as: There is a difference between being transgender and being a young woman with psychiatric issues who claims she is transgender due to peer pressure, etc.
I thought the whole point of Media Matters is to control speech for the progressive side. When have they ever championed truly free speech? The real issue is Media Matters 501c3 status when they are a political organization.
A "movement" that can't withstand even the slightest reflection and examination, that must attack ALL questioners because any question threatens the foundation, is a movement that deserves to lose.
The kindest thing I can think to say is to reference the observation that a movement has come of age when it can control the extremists in its own ranks. By that standard, Woke has clearly not come of age.
Please understand what is being talked about here before commenting. This should be a new discussion.
Maybe it should be a new discussion, but the important issue, which is viewpoint censorship by youtube, isn't a new phenomenon.
Slicing, and dicing your genitals because of feelings.
Psssst, hey buddy!! That's mental illness.
I've had the episode play in the background a few times this past week so I'm familiar with everything mentioned. The teenage female trans rate has gone from .1% to 2% over the course of a few years. It seems to be a manifestation of social media exposure and proselytizing drawing vulnerable kids in and personal gratification from the drugs the witch doctors give them and the glowing attention from fawning cultists online. We called it grooming a few years ago but now everyone's afraid not to use words like brave and heroic to describe the sexual and psychological mutilation of children let they be called intolerant.
Media Matters generally dislikes conservative media, right? ... and conservatives generally like the Rogan show. So Media Matters thinks, hey, let's take a shot at the podcast king who just signed the big-money deal with Spotify. We'll just use our standard, inflammatory, attention-getting "when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife" headline, and boom -- mission accomplished. No detailed diagram required here.
My sense of my younger sisters was that going through puberty. 7th-9th grade, was pretty traumatic. The girly girls had it the hardest, partly because my parents couldn't (or wouldn't) invest in the expensive clothing high status girls had. The tomboys had it better, or maybe just seemed to tough it out better, but I always had the sense that, whatever awkwardness I had to endure, it was better being a boy than a girl in those adolescent years.
By the time my own daughter was in those years, the whole anorexia thing was getting out of control--one of her friends ruined her reproductive health before anyone intervened. I can definitely see how seductive the trans route could seem to a 12-14 year old girl who just wants out of the whole thing. Shame on the medical types and the pharmaceutical companies getting rich off this suffering. And the "activists" who terrorize parents or counselors who might intervene before irrevocable damage is done.
They want to shut down Joe Rogan also.
Or maybe just intimidate him into compliance.
I also listened to the whole program. I found it profoundly disturbing. I have a very hard time ascribing any motive to the activists other than malice. I think about how many girls who went to grade school with me who were "tom boys," and wonder, how many would be snookered into this kind of "therapy" by a combination of peer pressure, professional advice, and, God help us, parental encouragement. Those girls were just girls, girls who liked finding tadpoles and playing baseball, riding bikes and climbing trees. They were my friends, one was even my girlfriend when we got older. How did that become pathologized? Why should we come to think that happening to enjoy things that some other girls think are gross somehow literally makes you into a boy. I think I am too old, too conventional, too traditional to wrap my head around it.
OK, since you said "please".
It seems to me that you can't really care about these young girls if you tell them to do such damage to themselves on such thin evidence drenched in emotion and politics. It's an extremely serious and dangerous path to go down. It's similar to giving an unstable person heroin or even a gun. That does not make you compassionate, and it's incredibly irresponsible. People who do that should liable for the results.
That is a breathtakingly inaccurate characterization of Rogan's interview of Shrier. I listened to the whole thing a week ago.
Ann's characterization of the actual tone of the two hour interview is spot on.
wait just a minute!
you're saying that media matters is showing a bias? and not being objective?
how could That Be? they're a non profit 501(c)(3) organization; which means they are Bound, BY LAW; NOT to have a political slant.
501(c)(3) organizations are subject to a provision that "no substantial part of the activities [may be] carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation"
haha! i'm just kidding! we ALL KNOW, that Rules Are Only For The RIGHT
You can't deny that sometimes it is just like anorexia or joining a cult. Not always, but plenty of the time. Those thing happen for very similar reasons. Everyone knows this, but some people lie, and pretend they don't.
People cannot be allowed to object, dissent, question, or even consider alternatives, in the slightest.
That's just how fragile trans-people's psyches are. If they're so "sure", why can there be no doubts expressed?
Spotify is part of a Swedish based company, but how long before the parent company caves to the cancel culture?
I give it till the end fo next month...
"Joe Rogan Is Spreading Transphobic Hate Speech and It's Putting Lives in Danger"
"Rogan has a history of platforming divisive voices. Now he's actively fanning the flames of hate."
Meanwhile back in the real world, Shrier is probably correct that it's mostly an example of mass hysteria, which isn't rare among groups of teen-aged girls.
focusing on a set of young girls who say they are transgender (and who can quickly get drugs and surgery) when there is reason to think they are mistaken.
How can anyone know if you are mistaken that you are transgender?
Is it bad person to think that most everyone who is transgender is mistaken, yet we can be supportive of them?
They throw in lots of moderating speech right at the beginning of the conversation. I'm not going to listen for over an hour to get the full context but it's obvious that having normal conversations about any politically charged topic these days is made exceptionally difficult by the screeching tyrannical left.
...because I didn't have a dog in this race....
Classy broad.
It is Media Matters, after all. Not a news site, but a political propaganda site that mimics the forms of journalism. You'll get more straight, honest news from MSNBC.
Listened to that earlier in the week. Basically said the rates of girls claiming trans are exploding and is indicative of social media enabled frenzy that adults are largely rolling over to. There were plenty of concessions to actual "gender dysphoria".
Just as some people will not discuss the mental problems of Donald Trump, I pass on discussions that exclude likely mental problems for transsexuals. Everybody has some form of mental hangup.
Whoa that's long.
Question, I thought these girls had no friends, but their friends influence them to want to transition?
Or does she mean "friends"?
Hmm. Media Matters distorting the truth to make their narrative useful in attacking someone? Never seen them do that before. I mean, aside from the fact that David Brock is insane, it seems to be an organization filled with nice people. They always have nice things to say about...er..about...hmm...
Really, they never have a nice thing to say about anyone. They are mud dwellers.
If they're trying to contemplate the idea that the girls' transgenderism is a manifestation of other mental illness and not a true gender dysphoria, then ya, there's no place in woke culture for that kind of thinking. They need cancelled...
Of course its odd and refreshing to hear such conversations nowadays...
Activists ruin everything.
Are girls (I can't believe I need to define the term, but by girls I mean teenagers who were born without penises) more susceptible than boys to this self-destructive "herding" behavior?
Rogan clearly wants to support the trans community. But he's honest enough to acknowledge that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder.
The Thought Police will be coming after him soon.
I listened to that podcast (and many of Joe Rogan's podcasts). He's a great interviewer for long form interviews, he makes it look effortless.
It saddens me that some people want to have a public discussion on a topic like this censored and forbidden. That's the issue here. Not trans issues. Whether a mere discussion on a complicated topic should be forbidden.
That's what Media Matters wants. To make the mere discussion off-limits.
If you have to make a discussion off-limits, I doubt you have a persuasive argument.
Speech should be responded to with more speech.
I also listened to the Podcast and there is no way to honestly listen to this and come away with the idea that these two people are anti-trans. They were discussing the explosion of transitioning that is occuring within a very specific subset of people - teenaged girls. The reason there is a question as to what is going on is that we know:
1. historically .o2% of the entire US population has experienced gender dysphoria and sought to live as a trans person
2. historically the vast majority of these folks are adult males
3. currently 2% of teenaged girls in the US are now coming out as trans
4. the dramatic increase among a population that was previously not among the typical population to transition is cause for inquiry.
The podcast was fascinating as it dealt with issues related to social pressure/praise that is now magnified by social media and its possible impact on these girls.
This podcast should not be criticized, it should be listened to. Interestingly, this exact kind of reaction was discussed on the podcast. Shrier recounted: 1. the number of trans activists who have tried to bully her and others (they are mostly biological males by the way) and 2. the number of medical professionals who are disturbed that they are not allowed to explore anything with these girls. Instead, they are told they must help them transition even if there are red flags that indicate the desire to transition is really a manifestation of a separate issue. It is disturbing.
I listened to most of the podcast yesterday. Am new to Joe Rogan, but so far I am amazed by how a good a conversationalist he is. The idea that this podcast should be banned from platforms like You Tube is strange, and simply affirms that Rogan and Shrier must be on to something, since otherwise someone who thought they were wrong would show why, rather than try to ban them. Shrier said that adolescent girls who have reached an age where state law allows them to make medical decisions, which is as young as 15 in some states, can obtain a scrip for testosterone from Planned Parenthood without a doctor's approval, in other words, they can self-diagnose. That is either a true or false statement. If it is false, then authors who are offended by Shrier should debunk the statement. But banning her from You Tube?
The conversation addresses in a very thoughtful way the power of social media to have a real influence on young people, in particular, young girls who feel as if they are outcasts, a feeling that many people will recall from junior high. But when we (those older than 35 or so) had those feelings, we did not have the internet, with a readily available community to amplify and suggest reasons for that feeling. That is an enormous change, and the Rogan/Shrier interview addresses that change in a thoughtful, compassionate, and worried conversation that is, in my view, quite profound.
The article that Ann cites to mentions the issue of suicide, and suggests that the failure to "affirm" a youngster who has gender doubts increases the risk of suicide. Shrier addresses that by pointing out that the suicide rate for teenage girls has gone up. Since there is much more "affirming" going on, one would think the rate would be going down. It is that type of common sense observation that the trans activists seem to want to bury.
Karl Ove Knausgard, in his multi-volume work My Struggle, describes coming of age in the late 1960's early 1970s in Norway. At times, he said he felt he might have been a girl. Confused, he spoke to his older brother, who said words to the effect, "Don't worry about it, lots of people feel like that some times when they are your age." In 2020, a boy with those "feeling" would mostly find a place on the internet which would encourage him to begin to transition. It is a very different time, and to suppress discussion of that difference is so very very wrongheaded. BTW, in case anyone is interested, much of the later part of My Struggle deals with Karl Ove's robust heterosexual life.
I have listened to a fair number of Rogen pod-casts. He comes across as actually interested in discussing "things" and though he has his positions, he a) seems to try to not let them get in the way, b) appears to be open to being convinced/swayed, c) gives the folks he is on with a fair shake, d) wants to go deeper that the "sound bite" and have the discussion too many say we need but really mean they want the "rest" of us to sit there and get lectured at.
He has some "strange" positions but overall seems fairly reasonable, unfortunately a high bar these days (just being resonable).
It's a good indicator that you can't win a debate when you call counter arguments hate speech and should be shut down.
I listened to this when it was fresh a couple of days ago.
I equate the purveyors of chemicals and surgery for these children to the suitcase pimps who reportedly used to hang around strip clubs and try to influence vulnerable young women making big money for the first time in their lives to invest in breast enhancements back in the 80's.
With a surgeon who is "a personal friend and a great guy", of course.
They're working middle schools instead of strip clubs now.
I'll need to consult Dante to determine the level of hell to which they should be consigned.
Great podcast. It was obvious 5 minutes in that the mob would be coming for them.
Infertility caused by surgical and chemical, elective abortion included, is a quasi-religious ("cult") issue that followed with social progress. The transgender spectrum describing a state or process of deviation from sex-correlated normal is inclusive of physical and mental (e.g. sexual orientation) divergence whether the origin is genetic, congenital, medical, or indoctrination. The proponents of the spectrum should consider their role in normalization vs tolerance, treatment, and corruption of natural, social, and political structures, of individuals, and of society. They want to abort the baby and have her, too.
Well I'm listening a bit at a time. It'll take all day.
Wow I would have totally wanted to transition at 4 yo. Who didn't want to be a boy? They had all the fun, obviously. I had two older brothers and got my sensibility from them.
Would have made a lousy boy tho. Not much better as a woman but life is simpler.
I saw the entire interview and of course Rogan and Shrier did not engage in "hate speech" ( I use this term although I reject its premise). They state over and over that they support full civil rights for trans individuals and that being transsexual is a real human condition. Shrier emphasizes that her research is intended to address the narrow but vital question of how to address children who assert a trans identity. Immediate affirmation and irreversible body-mutilation of these children seem like horrific ideas because they are.
I wondered how long it would be before this interview/podcast would be pulled from media platforms. I almost wish that it would be, because Joe Rogan is so successful that he might be able to legitimize and sustain a neutral new platform if he moved to one after being banned by the current hegemonic intolerant platforms.
how many girls who went to grade school with me who were "tom boys,
Yes, and some liked math while others liked cooking, and so on and so forth. These are weakly linked (e.g. circumstance, reconciliation) sex-correlated gender attributes at best, and are not social constructs that significantly affect a favorable juxtaposition of the sexes. It's ironic that social progress has evolved in a fashion that was purported in the past, but much, much worse, not limited to modern treatment and corruption of the sexes, genders, and transgender spectrum.
Remember two decades back when the big thing was the teen girls being 'cutters'?
Same emotional need meets a new world.
I am Laslo.
Our sensitive, creative, but very-much cis/hetero son (now 27) spent a lot of time puttering about play-kitchens and using play vacuum cleaners until he was about 5. This includes a few years playing this way in daycare/pre-school environments. Wore an apron too! Imagine if he'd been raised today by super-woke parents or chosen to play this way in today's pre-schools.
gadfly is the worst moby ever.
You just are not good at your job, gadfly.
h asked: "Are girls (I can't believe I need to define the term, but by girls I mean teenagers who were born without penises) more susceptible than boys to this self-destructive "herding" behavior?"
Yes, they are. Adolescent girls are almost uniformly uncomfortable and obsessively self-critical about their bodily changes. They are also more immersed in their social networks/peer groups.
Joe Rogan provides an excellent model for reasoned measured conversation. I wish him continued success and hope to see imitators.
Is there going to be a "lesbianless" generation
This is my position. I think the trans movement is deeply homophobic. It seems to be the idea that people can't be attracted to their own sex. therefore there must be some other explanation. Voila! Born the wrong sex.
I listened to this podcast yesterday, and, sadly, predicted that media would mis-characterize the discussion in this manner. The discussion was entirely reasonable to a regular person whose faculties have not been impaired by deep-drinkinng the woke/critical theory kool-aid.
Media Matters is fundamentally untrustworthy; therefore, your best bet is to respond to their demands with "let me show you my middle fingers."
On the whole, the idea Althouse summarized--that this podcast was focused "on a set of young girls who say they are transgender (and who can quickly get drugs and surgery) when there is reason to think they are mistaken"--is spot on, and is a discussion we should be encouraging.
"Activists ruin everything."
I agree.
Horrifyingly, our universities have spend the last 25 years operating with the express goal of making/training "activists." What did those institutions think would happen after graduation? They'd all sit around and sing Kumbaya?? Or that they'll compete and try to dominate...just like people have done for the last 5000 years.
The Left in 2020:
Ban! Cancel! Shut up!
it's mostly an example of mass hysteria, which isn't rare among groups of teen-aged girls
Nor is it among their moms: consider behaviors such as compulsive doomscrolling and yelling at unmasked strangers in grocery stores.
I have known one M to F trans person, both before and after her transition. He was a perfectly normal seeming man, and yet is plausible as a woman. I have liked and respected both him and her.
She seems happy as a woman, and I hope she is. Nevertheless, I can't help wishing that she'd been able to find a less drastic way of dealing with her very real issues.
So I think that, as an application of the precautionary principle, it's perfectly consistent to treat a sex change as at best a last resort and advise against it, while being fully supportive of someone who went ahead and did it.
consider that media matters was paid with our tax dollars to do this,
I think the trans movement is deeply homophobic.
The trans/homo movement is deeply transphobic, and has taken progressive steps to socially distance itself from others in the transgender spectrum.
Not hard to find de-trans videos on YouTube saying similar things. Here’s just one ..
https://youtu.be/hXE8AZZJaj0
Perhaps it's because girls are encouraged to do boy things so much
-----------==============
by their moms or dads as compared to FEMINAZIS or ordinary feminists - women's libbers?
As it happens I have previously listened to most of that podcast and it seems to me that Joe Rogan and Abigail Shrier put a great deal of effort into not criticizing transgenders while at the same time criticizing the extraordinary wrongness of what is happening with teenagers, or at least what the vast majority of parents, including even left wing parents, would see as the extraordinary wrongness of it all.
But this response, including the rampant dishonesty of it and the endorsement of it by most of the media, is nonetheless entirely predictable.
"They state over and over that they support full civil rights for trans individuals and that being transsexual is a real human condition."
I want to ask you; how could one possibly know that "being transsexual is a real human condition"? What test would tell you that? X-rays? DNA analysis? Ouija boards? Perhaps we have to wait until they die, and it will show up in the autopsy? Show up how? What conceivable evidence could there be of this supposed fact?
"Oddly, I've not heard of this happening with girls."
Actually according to Abigail Shrier, it's almost entirely young girls, teenagers, and not the boys, that are injecting themselves with testosterone and undergoing breast removals and sex surgeries.
Birkel: "gadfly is the worst moby ever.
You just are not good at your job, gadfly."
Indeed.
gadfly routinely takes the lefty talking points of the day and simply regurgitates them. Thats why his rather sad attempt to start his own blog failed immediately...he was simply just repackaging the moronic lefty thoughts of others.
LLR-lefty and antifa fanboy Chuck will take those same far left/marxist talking points and attempt to rephrase them as if a conservative or republican came up with it.
Its just as pathetic and transparent as gadfly but that extra step taken by LLR-lefty Chuck to attempt to frame marxist doctrine as "conservative" principles is why I refer to gadfly as The Poor Man's LLR-lefty Chuck.
Is media matter guilty of child abuse here? No one takes them to the woodshed?
I thought the Rogan discussion was insightful and even handed.
With another guest he delineated that it is best to delay social media accounts for young girls.
“Blogger madAsHell said...
Slicing, and dicing your genitals because of feelings.
Psssst, hey buddy!! That's mental illness.”
“I think I am napoleon. Please give me plastic surgery to make me look like Napoleon.” I’m sorry, sir, but you need to talk to this psychologist to determine the source of your delusion.
“I am a girl trapped in a boy’s body. Please give me plastic surgery to look like a boy.” Right this was, young man!
Let me see if I get this right. On the one hand, there are perfectly normal and healthy people who get their bits nipped off, and then on the other there are mentally unstable people who get their bits nipped off.
That sounds very much to me like the difference between an apple and....say....another apple.
- Krumhorn
I want to ask you; how could one possibly know that "being transsexual is a real human condition"?
There are very rare conditions of genetic ambiguity. However, most so-called "transsexuals" seem to be trans/homos or trans/bis (i.e. phenotypic, choice/indoctrination), perhaps trans-social, that are mentally divergent from normal, and are advised to corrupt their bodies and minds (i.e. gender/attributes and social changes) to force conformance with a progressive sociopolitical paradigm. This is where trans/homos/bis seem to differ, in that most, apparently, do not experience cognitive dissonance between body and mind.
Two anecdotes from someone who is broadly supportive of civil rights for all freaks and weirdos, but also has a deep concern for the abuse of children and of people with psychiatric issues.
1. A young mother, always attention seeking herself, encourages her precocious daughter to think of herself as nonbinary. The mother, a senior teacher at the daughter's school, then uses her own daughter to create a major issue in the school around support for transgender: the school's lack of sensitivity in areas from bathrooms to pronouns to sex education becomes a way to aggrandize herself thanks to her daughter's "condition." Daughter doesn't want to wear boy or girl clothes and in this is encouraged, and adopts changing pronouns, until the age of 12 when she decides she's actually a girl after all. This situation almost got very ugly because the dad (divorced) was incredibly opposed to what was going on, and only his financial influence prevented puberty blockers and other medical interventions.
2. My kids' school hired a trans teacher, born a woman but identifying now as a male. It's a small school, with less than 30 kids per grade. 6 girls by year's end were identifying as trans in some way or another, half the girls in the grade. Children are impressionable. Ironically this bothers the progressive parents in our community far more than it does me, because I don't take what the kids say quite as seriously, and know that they will grow out of it and on some level can and should be indulged by being ignored. But these girls want hormone injections and breast-banding and all that jazz, just like their teacher. This is not unusual: when there was an out lesbian teacher who joined a few years ago, several of the 7th and 8th grade girls came out too.
Kids are impressionable, and a lot of adults are self-obsessed assholes who use their kids to live vicariously. Elective medical interventions of this sort, whether pharmaceutical or surgical, are a travesty, even if you believe they should be available for adults.
Whooo! Sign o' the times! Rogan announced today that he's moving from LA to Texas!
There are many millions of unhappy people in the world and some of them think they will be happier if they become the other sex, not just dress and act and be treated like the other sex, but actually become the other sex.
Of those people, some are right and they will be happier. Others are wrong and they will not be happier. Since thesis a surgical procedure that, once done, done cannot be undone, isn't it simple common sense and human decency to take steps to ensure that the people who undergo that irreversible surgical procedure are more likely to be in the first group then in the second?
From the Media Matters website: "Media Matters for America is a web-based, not-for-profit, 501 (c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media."
Nice racket.
“Lived experience” cannot be wrong apparently. That is why it is wrong to doubt that Trump is a stable genius.
"Cancel culture doesn't exist!"
"Block Joe Rogan from having an outlet to speak!"
Fuck these people.
Kids are impressionable, and a lot of adults are self-obsessed assholes who use their kids to live vicariously. Elective medical interventions of this sort, whether pharmaceutical or surgical, are a travesty, even if you believe they should be available for adults.
This. Growing up is about developing your identity. Much of our culture and society is built up from generation after generation of best practices to help that occur in a way that is beneficial to society as a whole. I think that a lot of the problems with millennials today (especially young women, who all seem to be on medication and in therapy) is that the sexual and cultural revolutions of the past fifty years destroyed those institutions.
I remember when sex re-assignment surgery required years of counseling before you were accepted as a candidate. Now they seem to be in a big hurry to mutilate teenage girls and medicate teenage boys.
Jupiter asks, first quoting me:""They state over and over that they support full civil rights for trans individuals and that being transsexual is a real human condition.""
"I want to ask you; how could one possibly know that "being transsexual is a real human condition"? What test would tell you that?"
I think it makes sense to look at this phenomenon just as we do with many human behaviors. We can't open the brain and see people's thoughts or feelings to prove these subjective states. What we can do is take note of what people say they are thinking/feeling, how they act, how consistent this belief is across the human spectrum, etc. I think these observations demonstrate that there are some people who truly experience transexuality as an established part of their identity. They are not pretending to feel this way and it's persistent. Ideally, their dysphoria disappears when they are able to present to society as the opposite sex. The condition has always appeared to be very rare, though, and society was never expected to aver that these individuals had biologically morphed into the opposite sex.
Kids are impressionable, and a lot of adults are self-obsessed assholes who use their kids to live vicariously.
My wife is a HS Art teacher (and life long Democrat). She previously taught at the college level. She is amazed at the dramatic increase in transgendered students, mostly biological boys wanting to be girls.
A Theater professor at her former college is married to a woman transitioning to be a man. She is disturbed that two of their four kids (both boys) are extremely feminine in their appearance at pre-pubescent ages.
Eventually liberals will figure out that the Crazy Left is their enemy. It is not the Right, Eric Weinstein often says.
NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...Whooo! Sign o' the times! Rogan announced today that he's moving from LA to Texas!
--
Better bring a mask.
He's going to really be worried about CAGW there.
I watch a clip YouTube recommended where the question was being discussed and Rogan was careful to point out that that there are some people who are really trans and some young people who later come to regret it. He was clearly distinguishing between the two.
Abigail make a very good point during this podcast; Joe plays devil's advocate, stating "the sharp increase in women transitioning - maybe we are finally getting to the 'normal' percentage of women with gender dysphoria now that it is more open and accepted?
To which Abigail replies: Where are the 40 and 50 something women, finally coming out to say "NOW I can really be myself"? If these numbers were indicative of "normal" - would there not be a number of middle aged women stating "MeToo - I really wanted to be male"?
I think it makes sense to look at this phenomenon just as we do with many human behaviors. We can't open the brain and see people's thoughts or feelings to prove these subjective states. What we can do is take note of what people say they are thinking/feeling, how they act, how consistent this belief is across the human spectrum, etc. I think these observations demonstrate that there are some people who truly experience transexuality as an established part of their identity. They are not pretending to feel this way and it's persistent. Ideally, their dysphoria disappears when they are able to present to society as the opposite sex. The condition has always appeared to be very rare, though, and society was never expected to aver that these individuals had biologically morphed into the opposite sex.
**************************
IOW it's feelings, not biology, that's crucial. Got it.
How about if I feel my penis is evil, and cut it off----is that kind of self-mutilation OK too? What's the difference between doing it myself, or having some quack take it off for me?
As for that "ideally" you sneaked in there----isn't part of the point that many trannies REGRET what they've done to themselves?
It was a reasoned discussion by people on the left on how the left ought to handle a problem the left is presently making worse and worse. Young girls in large number, in the hundreds of thousands, are permanently altering their bodies and there is evidence to suggest that these alterations are not real gender dysphoria being recognized and treated but rather the whole thing is a fad among teenage girls like cutting, a fad on which social media is acting as an accelerant, a fad with lifelong irreversible results and a fad whose dangers the left and media matters does not want to be discussed. The podcast is a model of how to have such a discussion. But the left doesn't want a model of that. No one is to suggest that the left might do harm. And, particularly, don't suggest that suppressing free speech might accelerate some particular harm the left is doing.
Ann Althouse said:
"That's the headline at Media Matters, and it's woefully inaccurate."
I. am. stunned. Media Matters with an inaccurate headline? Gah!
IMO, Media Matters is Antifa without the charm.
The problem here is that it is hard for many girls to go through the process of becoming women. They have to be socialized, just as boys have to to become men. For boys, it is learning to respect the male hierarchy, and their place in it. For girls, it involves dealing with female social pressure. Girls are vicious with each other during this transition, esp in middle school. They experiment with this power by, for example, getting the group to shun other girls. Or turning on and off friendships. Many of them obsess about their bodies, as they reach sexual maturity, as well as their looks. My partner tells about her daughter and her best friend. One had big breasts, but an unattractive butt, while the other had long legs, and a spoon butt, but no tits. Neither was happy with what she had, and wanted what the other one did. Of course, by the time they graduated from HS, those insecurities were long forgotten.
The result is that middle school, esp, girls are typically fairly insecure, and some are very insecure so, they become susceptible to cults of one type or another, where they will belong. The cult maybe following some rock star, anorexia, being a lesbian, etc, or, in this case, identifying as a transsexual. Most of these cults or obsessions are fairly benign. Some are not. Anorexia kills. Transsexuality doesn’t do that directly, but it often has adverse health effects. The binding of breasts can permanently harm breasts. Taking large dosages of testosterone, while possibly making the girls feel more directed, etc, often causes long term fertility problems. Of course, doing a full transition, including surgical alterations most often results in permanent sterilization. Suicide occurs in teenaged transsexuals at a much higher rate than in the general population, Then, the girls mature out of this phase, to discover “oops”, she will never have kids.
A fraternity brother recently lost a daughter, to being a son. But s/he was a college senior, and a legal adult. S/he had the legal right to make this decision all on their own. Dad wasn’t happy, but is coping, and coming to acceptance. The thing though about transsexual adolescents is that they most often grow out of their obsessions and other coping mechanisms, while gender dysphoria is typically much more real, and not imaginary, with adults. But by then, when they leave adolescence, the damage to their bodies is already done ( just as some of the heart damage done by adolescent anorexia can be permanent). Part of the crime here is the power to prevent this sort of unhealthy behavior by their adolescents has been taken away from parents in many places. It is considered sexual autonomy, and thus little different than abortions and birth control, in terms of parental control. We are supposed to be able to protect our kids from harm, at least until they are off on their own as adults. But when it comes to transsexuality, that power is often taken away from them.
is gender modification like anorexia or cutting?
Of Course NOT!
anorexia and cutting are discouraged, gender modification is Encouraged
think about That. We are ENCOURAGING Young women to mutilate their bodies
Ah, there we go censoring for viewpoint, Althouse, there's plenty of time for my comment to have posted. You just sold your soul, cheap.
But let's not rehash, but move on...we all know the truth, including you, so why repeat it.
n.n said...
Infertility caused by surgical and chemical, elective abortion included, is
Essentially murder. Worse because the victim is left alive.
Some of the "kinder" Nazis at the Wansee Conference shied at killing all the Jews, ostensibly on legal grounds i.e. managing all the divorces and property issues, and merely wished them all sterilized, so they would be extinct in time. Gee thanks Hans!
Oh and jimbino, who gets pretty much hysterical over the practice of infant circumcision, a sacrament for some and benign for most, hasn't a word to say about utter total irreversible MGM and FGM via this insane fad.
Wholelottasplainin' quoted me and then said:
"IOW it's feelings, not biology, that's crucial. Got it."
In case you are engaging me with candor and good-will and perhaps misunderstanding my points, I'll give this a try.
Being transsexual seems to be a psychological disorder that is as established as any other psychological condition. That's all I was getting at. According to the stats and research we had before Trans became the new Critical Theory darling, TRUE gender dysphoria is a mental disorder that begins at a young age, persists through adulthood, is not caused by other psychological conditions, and is extremely extremely rare. I feel badly for anyone who has it or thinks they have it. I feel a million times worse for anyone who thinks that they are transsexual for any reason but who really isn't. I am enraged that being trans is actually being promoted. The current approach of immediately affirming trans identity and then providing medical "treatment" of children is child abuse, period.
"How about if I feel my penis is evil, and cut it off----is that kind of self-mutilation OK too? What's the difference between doing it myself, or having some quack take it off for me?"
I don't think drastic mutilation is OK in any sense of the word other than that I don't want government to forbid it as long as it's done by adults. We would IDEALLY have effective therapy to fully explore the basis for a person feeling "trans" before any medial intervention. Walt Heyer has written extensively on his experience of being misdiagnosed as a M to F transsexual and then undergoing the full surgical and lifestyle changes to "become" "female." Very enlightening; maybe you'd like to read his articles or books. As an older adult, he was finally correctly diagnosed as actually suffering from dissociative disorder due to child abuse. He is of course not happy that his body is wrecked and that he wasted so many years being unhappy without knowing why.
"As for that "ideally" you sneaked in there----isn't part of the point that many trannies REGRET what they've done to themselves?"
When I used the word "ideally," I meant something similar to what you just said--there's nothing about surgical mutilation that seems "ideal" to me. Ideally, IF surgery is to happen, ONLY people who suffer from true gender dysphoria would even contemplate surgery and then ideally they would experience relief. I can't change the fact that adults are legally permitted to do whatever they want to their bodies but I do think best medical practice should severely discourage this. Many (most?) transsexuals don't get surgery; they go with dress and maybe hormones.
FWIW. My last year teaching I had a trans student. A young woman expressing as a male in clothes and hairstyle. I would never have inquired, it being none of my business but I asked "him" about the name (female) and wondered if it were a family thing. That's when the student told me about it. I asked what the kid wanted to be called, I was given a gender-neutral nickname to use and I left it at that. If the other students were aware of it, nothing was ever said that I heard.
I figure how someone feels about themselves is private stuff. I'm not asking and don't really care to pry. I don't think that spokespeople for trans issues have a reasonable case objecting to a conversation between reasonable adults.
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