From "‘It’s Just So Devastating’: For Crestfallen Gymnasts, an Olympic Dream Deferred/Female gymnasts often compete at younger ages than their Olympic peers and have a far more concentrated opportunity at the top. Into that intense world dropped the coronavirus pandemic" (NYT).
Here's the highest-rated comment over there:
The short of it is that gymnastics is a broken sport that probably ought to not exist. It's fine to do it for recreation, but these elite gymnasts push their bodies to the point of failure, and beyond. All so they can compete in the Olympics at the age of 17, and then have to deal with the very real physical manifestations of overtraining for the rest of their lives. It's kind [of] like traumatic brain injury in football.Reminds me of the letter I wrote to the NYT in 1989 (published here):
पोस्ट्स
६७ टिप्पण्या:
Women Hardest Hit!
More men than women are dying from the disease, but of course women are hardest hit.
Come on people, we're talking about a difference of one year.
But won't there be other slightly younger gymnasts that can now compete next year? Zero sum game.
To think that you were 38 when you write that.
The window for Olympic success is tiny, but not as tiny as the gymnasts themselves.
I dislike very much these "who has it worst" comparisons. My son calls it the "Victim Olympics," and I call the "The Race to the Bottom."The postponement is awful for every sport, each in its own way. And it's awful for lots of different people, each in their way. For example, my high school senior is grieving an entire spring of fun events cancelled or (hopefully) postponed.
My girls are equestrians. To make the Olympic team requires a special magic of a terrific year and total health for both horse and rider. The postponement of the games means we will likely see very different riders and/or horses next year. I think there are far more athletes that this postponement hurts. Special victimhood for girl gymnasts needs to come from somewhere other than mere postponement.
It is child abuse and should be stopped. There should be a minimum age for competition, like 17 or 18 when the athlete can make her own legal decisions. Mix in the psychotic coaches and fiends like Nassar to young girls eager to please parents and and you get the sad situation that gymnastics is. Figure skating too. Don't forget those twirling pixies encouraged to wear nothing while spreading for the cameras. If adult women want to do that, go for it. Leave the 13 years olds at home.
Any sport that relies on the judgment of a 3rd party to declare a winner as opposed to an actual point spread or winning time is not a sport -- just an opportunity for disappointment and rigging. Sure, these "sports" are entertaining to watch and to marvel at the athlete's skills, but leave it at that stress-free level.
Is anyone excited about the Olympics?
I'd rather ride in a steam engine.
The time has passed.
They are so un self aware that they have no idea when they slip into self parody. The virus seems twice as likely to kill men, and still it’s “women and children hardest hit.”
Next we will see an article about how cruel it is that so many new elderly widows have nobody to make sandwiches for anymore.
You are a better writer today, BTW.
Makes me wonder about a lot of things we take for granted.
I'm mostly asportsual, and don't find this sort of niche-athleticism that compelling.
I'm also a het male and don't mind watching talented ice-skaters or ballerinas AT all.
But these little dynamos, and their exploitation by their elders, I find faintly repellent.
Sign of the times: the local NPR station is doing all-request week (1st time evah) and they've had such demand for Ludwig van's 9th that they're going to play the WHOLE THING and tape the hourly NPR screed for airing after. Unprecedented.
Narr
What's happening to all the certainties?
For spectating on female pulchritude, it’s women’s curling for me, hands down. None of this kiddie porn.
At a local gymnastics gym there is a full time option where the girls do online school at the gym and practice all day.
Wow! They really gave you an awful illustration back in the day.
Olympic Champions React to Men Doing Women's Gymnastics
"the very real physical manifestations of overtraining for the rest of their lives"
Sounds plausible, but how real, frequent, and panful are these "manifestations"?
Anyway, that NYT letter is, umm, amazing. Explains a lot.
I do agree with everyone's criticism of gymnastics, do I do not recall hearing any when Simone Biles was celebrated as GOAT.
Competing at an international level in most sports puts huge stresses on the human body, and there is only a relatively small window in which anyone can compete. It’s a measure of the greatness of Michael Phelps that he was able to compete in so many Olympics at such a high level. Most are not so physically blessed.
That's sexist.
Another year of puberty blockers....
First, the Olympics is a marketing device. The same athletes compete all the time, some of it even televised, and who watches? Audiences are a tiny fraction of those for the mass spectator sports like football. But call it a 'movement,' posit some mysterious connection with the ancient world, and you can't sell tickets fast enough...
Second, have we already forgotten the shameful scandal involving sexual abuse of these girls? The closure of the Karolyi's gymnastics ranch north of Houston? What kind of parents would want their daughters involved in that culture? Maybe at least some good will have come out of the present plague...
Left: "Olympic Champions React to Men Doing Women's Gymnastics"
Don't show this to Althouse! Men on the balance beam, unencumbered! Unpossible!
tim: "You are a better writer today, BTW."
Yes. Less irritating, less encumbered by feminist stereotype and the party line. Besides Althouse getting tired of the old liberal rut and the groupthink around her, perhaps the awareness of an entirely different anti-NYT non-feminist deplorable audience helped. She'd hesitate throwing something like that letter out to us, except as a little deliberate red meat, right?
"'It’s Just So Devastating': For Crestfallen Gymnasts, an Olympic Dream Deferred"
What. A. Frappin. Shame.
In the last semester I taught as an adjunct I had to arrange a makeup final exam for a young track athlete whose coach took him to a “last chance” meet on the day of my final — last chance to qualify for nationals in his event. He missed the qualification time but did ace my final and earn an A- in my class. I see in the local paper that this year he qualified handily as a senior, but nationals have been cancelled. He’s Division III, so that’s it for his track career. This damned virus is shattering dreams for a lot of young athletes at s lot of levels.
"Of course, this well-developed, powerful woman would not fit into the sport, not because she is encumbered by her body and needs a second-class category, but because the sport is designed to exclude her."
Yes, it was so unfair back then. Fortunately, the voices of courageous women like yourself were heard. The Patriarchy mended its ways, and women are now allowed to compete with the men, in a sport designed for their powerful, mature bodies.
Hear me roar!
"We" aren't doing anything regarding women's gymnastics. Little girls do well at gymnastics because the sport favors women with smaller builds and smaller feet. Why is this anymore of a problem than sports that favor big hulking women with large builds?
Male Gymnastics Requires more strength so 16 y/o boys aren't winning Gold Medals - but the sport still favors the young over the old. Which is true of almost every athletic competition. How many 40 y/o's win a Gold medal?
On the other hand, women mature younger than men, and this manifests itself in sports much less physically destructive than gymnastics. Teenage girls can compete at the professional level in tennis and golf, which is just not true for boys. In high school sports freshmen girls generally have the physical size and strength to compete in varsity sports, and it is quite common to see talented freshmen even on high quality teams, while you will almost never see that with boys (generally these are LeBron James level outliers). In football it is rarely even safe for a freshman boy to play, much less competitive.
From my POV women's gymnastics would be better served by figuring out how to make the sport safer for all participants - in particular I would suggest eliminating the vault, which has a wildly disproportionate injury risk for an event that essentially consists of a single element. Safety might actually play a significant role in increasing the age of elite gymnasts - older gymnasts understand the risks of training in a way that younger ones do not, and women are generally much more risk averse than men, so it's not surprising that few women are willing to put up with an Olympic gymnastics training regime as adults.
And just as a last throwaway - gymnastics is one of the few sports where being short is actually a competitive advantage. Plenty of kids are pushed out of sports as they mature because they are smaller or just stop growing sooner and get passed by the late bloomers. It's not a cosmic injustice that there is a sport where the reverse is true.
"This damned virus is shattering dreams for a lot of young athletes at a lot of levels"
Not the virus, the overreaction to the virus.
Number of athletes reported suffering any Wuhan complications, in the whole world: 1.
Not what I was saying at all. Her writing is more crisp today.
The virus seems twice as likely to kill men, and still it’s “women and children hardest hit.”
Older males, including trans/homos, but perhaps not trans/neos, with underlying conditions. Herding people through the spread of social contagion is a probable forcing of shedding and excessive deaths of patients and medical staff.
NYC Health: COVID-19 Daily Data Summary: Deaths
1397 deaths. 1046 underlying conditions. 333 conditions pending.
635 age 75 and over
574 female sex
872 male sex
The lessons Italy has learned about its COVID-19 outbreak could help the rest of the world
"The biggest mistake we made was to admit patients infected with COVID-19 into hospitals throughout the region," said Carlo Borghetti, the vice-premier of Lombardy, an economically crucial region with a population of 10 million.
Just let trans men to do women's gymnastics and you can have 30-year old gold medalists.
Problem solved.
Common sense prevails in Idaho. Born males can no longer compete in girls sports.
Sanity at last.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/31/idaho-law-bans-transgender-athletes-girls-and-wome/
"Older males . . . with underlying conditions."
Right. Tracking the data for some European countries: excess mortality now almost exclusively over 65 in some cases, under 65 barely detectable.
Olympics cancelled... Women and children hardest hit.
Leftist Collectivist Feminism sucks.
A reasonable rule (for me, at least) is to NEVER watch any sport that has judges. If it's not timed, measured or scored, it's not objective and the outcome is determined by the political or tribal prejudices of the judges.
Some Olympians through the years have been quite old. Equestrians, shooters, and archers have been in their sixties or older, mostly in the early years of the Games, though one Canadian horseman participated in ten Olympics from 1972 to 2012. Swimmer Dara Torres competed at 41 in 2008, and some track and field athletes have been in their forties as well. It helps if your country is small and your sport unpopular, though.
Also, from 1912 to 1948 artistic competitions were part of the Olympics. I did not know that until now. Architecture, Literature, Music, Painting and Sculpture were dropped for the bullshit reason that the practitioners were professionals, rather than true amateurs. Also, the awards were necessarily subjective, and few of the winners are remembered today.
"Olympic Champions React to Men Doing Women's Gymnastics"
My testicles reascended watching the balance beam routines.
Your letter sounded like fairly typical feminist conspiracy nonsense ("the sport is designed to exclude" well-developed powerful women), so check out the well-developed powerful women in "The Body Shapes Of The World’s Best Athletes Compared Side By Side"
Fun fact: in upper body strength, the strongest women are just slightly stronger than the weakest men.
Aging hits different girls at different ages. My partner won the NV gymnastics and title on a balance beam at maybe 14, but by the next year, she had grown a couple inches, and, in particular, her tits had grown. She had the same problem with ballet. She went through college on a dance scholarship, but for the latter part of her time there, she was too big to be the prima ballerina. Apparently the upper limit is about 110 lbs, so that the guys can hoist them up, and by graduation, she was a solidly muscled (excluding DD breasts) 140 lbs . And she matured later, getting her last growth spurt, later than her sisters - except that her older sister stayed really slim, and apparently excelled on floor exercises, though never at an Olympic level. Surprisingly though, this didn’t affect her modeling career, which she did through college to make easy money, and quit only when she got married and pregnant in her early 20s.
The only Olympic sport that I ever really followed (except for a few short years in college, since we had Peggy Fleming in my class) was ski racing. There, the women peaked really early (late teens, early 20s), esp in the skill events (SL, GS), the men a bit later in the skill events (mid 20s), but older men, mostly 30s, dominated in the speed events (DH, SG). What the “skill” events require was fast reflexes, while the “speed” events require is skill and strength. What has been interesting has been watching several of the women move from dominance in the skill events to the speed events. The other thing is that the time that they can stay at the top has increased significantly over the last half century.
"...90% of females produced less force than 95% of males. Though female athletes were significantly stronger (444 N) than their untrained female counterparts, this value corresponded to only the 25th percentile of the male subjects."
Graph
One thing to change in your letter. Female gymnasts are now often "well-muscled". Success requires smallness, nimbleness, AND strength.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkJELpndAOs&t=1782s
Some interesting COVID-19 info.
For the clickers
Not a bad idea--set something like a 21 age limit to simply define out the exploitation of children.
I don't buy the idea that elite female gymnasts are ruining their bodies because they begin their training at a young age. The best athletes look fabulous even as they become mature women. From Ranker : "The hottest female gymnasts are the beautiful women who compete for their colleges or countries at gymnastic meets around the world. These babes are the sexiest women of gymnastics and have dozens of Olympic medals and championships between them in either artistic gymnastics, rhythmic gymnastics or trampoline. Sexy and successful, yes, it's pretty awesome being a gymnast." All elite athletes push their bodies through pain and injury. That's the price they are willing to pay because they love sports. I went to a podiatrist's office some time ago and was surprised to learn that a significant number of their patients are high school basketball players. Funny seeing all the giant chairs in the waiting room. You see that in all physical therapy clinics -- injured athletes.
BTW Simone Biles originally was very self conscious about her muscular build but it has enabled her to achieve extraordinary feats no one else can do. I don't think her disappointment about the delay of the Olympics is about being worn out physically but rather a desire to do other things with her life than spending so many hours in the gym training.
We need Robert California to help mentor these troubled gymnasts.
"NEVER watch any sport that has judges"
No football, basketball, and especially baseball for you then.
I would guess the prevalence of girls in gymnastics has far more to do with simple power-weight ratios than with what "we" think they ought to look like.
PS Quote from Biles: “Physically I have no doubts that my coaches will get me back in shape, but mentally going another year, I think that is what’s going to take the toll on me and all of us and most of the athletes,” the American told NBC’s Today show. “We have to stay in shape mentally just as much as physically. That will play a big factor moving forward, listening to your body and your mind.”
Biles will be 24 when the Games start next year, an age when most Olympic gymnasts have long since retired. She says the decision to delay the Olympics was correct." https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/simone-biles-fears-mental-toll-on-athletes-after-postponement-of-tokyo-olympics/ar-BB123azA
This is a very interesting thread, made more so by the video of men practicing the women's events. It seems clear that if there is to be gymnastic competition for men and women, there should not be any difference in the types of events either sex is required to perform. That way, there could be no invidious discrimination based on age or sex (aside from the very persuasive comments that any sport depending upon judges perceptions other than timed, measured, or scored criteria is suspect). Critiques stemming from Feminist or Ageist perspectives would lack all credibility. Anytime an area of human life can get rid of any of the "isms" which infect our culture benefits us all.
High-level girls' gymnastics is legalized child abuse.
My daughter just quit gymnastics last year after many years because she couldn't get up to the next level, and she was nowhere near the Olympic level.
Some comments:
1) There already is a minimum age for female gymnasts. It's 16.
2) The window for women may not be as short as it once was. It used to be that athletes had to go get a regular job to support themselves. Now they can support themselves through sport, so they can stick around longer. Gabby Douglas came back for a second bite at the Olympics. She wasn't #1 any more, but she was still damn good.
3) A lot of stuff has to go right to get to the Olympic level. Talent, discipline, desire, money, the right coach, good health, durability, money, an early start, money, supportive parents, more money. That stuff is hard to maintain for a long time.
4) As long as the balance beam is an event, men will not be competing in women's gymnastics. Splitting the beam is painful for girls, it's got to be worse for men.
5) The physical power that male gymnasts have is on a completely different level from the girls. One of the coaches at my daughter's gym was a collegiate gymnast. I thought he was going to fly out of the gym on his vaults. It was almost frightening.
6) Creeps are going to go where the kids are. Some were involved in gymnastics. I bet there are creeps in all kinds of kids events. Parents need to be aware, but I don't think gymnastics is in any way unique in this regard.
@ Lurker21 - I watched the showdown between Jenny Thompson and Dara Torres in the 100 meter fly at the 2000 Olympic trials. One of the finest races I ever saw. I saw Dara at the 2004 Trials and told her that her work in 2000 was the most amazing sports feat I had ever witnessed. I got a kiss and a hug for that. A fine moment.
hawkeyedjb, I've long thought like you. Without an objective measure it's only a form of entertainment.
But even those sports with which you're okay, there are still judgement calls. Was that pitch in the strike zone; did the foot land at least partially on the chalk line; the called foul in basketball; was the baton passed in the exchange zone; so forth.
I agree with every word of your 1989 letter and wish I had written it myself. A few years before that I saw the training of six-year-old girls at a world-class gymnastic facility, and it could only be described as child abuse.
My wife had to give up her gymnastics career at the age of 16 once she hit five foot nine 135 lb.
Speaking of the relevance of size, Simone Biles is only 4 foot 8.
All well and good but how does the cancellation affect web-footed, albino lesbians?
Jaime: "4) As long as the balance beam is an event, men will not be competing in women's gymnastics. Splitting the beam is painful for girls, it's got to be worse for men.
5) The physical power that male gymnasts have is on a completely different level from the girls."
No and yes. See the video linked upthread. Male gymnasts doing Simone Biles' floor routine and mastering the beam. Very good gymnasts, no doubt, but not the very top, as best I can tell.
Out here in East Lansing, the Larry Nassar story has consumed attention for a couple of years now. Hundreds of young female gymnasts whom he molested have lined up with their lawyers at the trough for payouts from $500 million MSU has for them. Almost NEVER commented on is that parents as well as the kids themselves knew that such injuries as led them to the creepy Nassar were almost inevitable in this sport, or that many of the parents were actually present and even witnessed Nassar's molesting of their injured kids as it was happening, yet convinced themselves it was all legitimate treatment. And then proceeded to push their injured kids back into this idiotic sport. Nassar got his just punishment from a court of law. I have little sympathy for the supposed "survivors" of his abuse who are now out for loot, and especially for their parents who allowed them to take on the risks this sport entails in the first place.
idaho-law-bans-transgender-athletes-girls-and-women
Trans/neo-feminine. It doesn't affect girls, women, and other females in the transgender spectrum ("Rainbow").
Hey! Be kind to your web-footed friends!
Sebastian and Gspencer - there are judgement calls in almost all sports, but the referees don't get together at the end of the game and award victory to one team because, in their opinion, that team played better.
Age restrictions were raised years ago by the sport's international federation.
Athletes must be at least sixteen in the year of the Olympics to compete. Why not 18? The sport is already becoming more of a power sport and that means more muscle and experience. Why not further accelerate the changing nature of female gymnastics?
Now with working link -
"The Body Shapes Of The World’s Best Athletes Compared Side By Side"
"...their window for... success is so tiny."
Snort!
"Poor me! I'm a woman victim!"
Althouse concurs.
Good letter!!
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