Here's how he spoke of Easter in
yesterday's Task Force press briefing:
In closing, I also want to note today is Palm Sunday and at the beginning of Holy Week for Christians in America and all around the world. While we may be apart from one another, as you can see from our great churches, our great pastors and ministers are out there working very hard, but we may be apart we can use this time to turn to reflection and prayer and our own personal relationship with God. I would ask that all Americans pray for the heroic doctors and nurses, for the truck drivers and grocery store workers, and for everyone fighting this battle.... But most of all, I’d like to ask for your prayers for the families who have lost loved ones, ask God to comfort them in their hour of grief. It’s a great hour of grief for our nation, for the world.... With the faith of our families and the spirit of our people and the grace of our God, we will endure, we will overcome, we will prevail.
But in Wisconsin,
as reported by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:
Assembly Republicans are calling on Gov. Tony Evers to allow in-person services for Easter and Passover amid the deadly coronavirus pandemic.
"It is more important than ever that we allow Wisconsinites to observe their individual faiths," Assembly Speaker Robin Vos and the other members of the Assembly GOP caucus wrote in a Friday letter to Evers. "To that end, we ask that you work with Wisconsin churches and temples to allow them to hold Easter or Passover services, even if it's outside."
Evers declined the request....
The Republicans' request came one day before Republicans in the Assembly and Senate stalled Evers' move to push back Tuesday's election due to the coronavirus pandemic ravaging countries around the world....
I don't think the Republicans were at any risk that they'd get what they were asking for, so I consider this political posturing. Political religion theater...
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59 comments:
Sunday school and church were just for learning the cultural touchstones. There's no reason to keep it up.
Just rephrasing it.
Yes, like voting for or against a bill for which the outcome has already been determined.
It's cynicism about the audience for the theater, which is probably correct cynicism.
Misjudgments are still possible though. Maybe nobody is a stupid as they imagine. It might be a stereotyping mistake. Or it might be women.
Boeing is converting the 737 MAX into flying churches. Two problems solved at one stroke.
Religion isn't a virtue. Behaving as the religion suggests is the virtue.
Putting aside whether congregating in a group to celebrate Easter is a good idea health-wise, isn't prohibiting people from attending church interfering with the free exercise of their religion? I'm less worried about the physical effects of the virus than I am with how willingly people are giving up their basic rights. What if the government decides it's in our best interests for our mental health to close the churches? There's a large part of the public that would applaud that, too. We shouldn't walk through a door without considering what might be on the other side.
"Political religion theater..." -- Althouse
That's exactly what I think when you and Meade use quotes from the Bible.
Is congregating in church inherently more dangerous than congregating at the store?
Maybe you're right in part, Althouse, but dismissing the religious urge out of hand as your post does seems to reflect an attitude radically unsympathetic to religious expresssion.
It's too bad the word "sermon" has taken on some dreary associations, over time. When great ministers go deep into their spirit and apply that to the many texts of the Bible, inspiration and enlightenment often follow.
Here are two excellent sermons, from two very different style ministers, addressing this virus crisis that I have listened to more than once. I commend them, with the caveat that it is not all peaches-and-cream.
This first one, which I posted at the tail end of another thread a few days ago, gets started at 13:00 with the actual sermon. It is music up until then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYC9AXIEAaM&list=PLUzbvqwj3EV13gQ-T-rbBM5xJTmnPPSfE&index=2&t=0s
https://www.tenth.org/resource-library/sermons/through-the-valley
FTR, Trump's talk about attending services was an aspiration. the "I'd love to see" is a clue. I think we all would have loved to see this virus passed through and able to normally function by now.
Time to re-open the churches. Most are only 1/4 full anyway. It's warm now. Open all the doors and windows. Plenty of room in the pews to sit 10 feet apart.
This is a very happy period in my life. I almost feel guilty about it. At 70, I'm still in demand. Playing outside with my grandkids. It's bicycle riding season again.
Death is coming soon for all of us Boomers. Time to live up to all that bravado we expressed when we were kids and face death with joy and graciousness.
I don't think the Republicans were at any risk that they'd get what they were asking for, so I consider this political posturing. Political religion theater...
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances...
Let them go to church, but put them on the lowest priority for a ventilator.
Let God sort it out, as they used to say.
Arrest those who go to church, so the governor can release them.
It's still funny that we pretend like Evers has the power to stop people from attending church.
Shouting Thomas-
From one upstate NY piano-playing, bicycle-riding, grandfatherly Thomas to another, "Amen."
During the entirety of the AIDS rampup, they refused to shut down the "cultural touchstones" in San Francisco. The gay bathhouses.
Let them go to church, but put them on the lowest priority for a ventilator.
Let God sort it out, as they used to say.
If you do the same with obesity, you just solved the ventilator shortage! (Choices, don't you know?)
1. Wife and I have quarantined 2 weeks followed by two more of social distancing.
2. People asymptomatic for 2 or 3 weeks should be OK in small groups or a socially distanced church setting (outdoor service or other means).
3. Immunocompromised people or other high risk groups stay away.
I think some services could resume under this model. Certainly many businesses could. Especially if masks are mandatory as in San Diego.
so I consider this political posturing. Political religion theater...
Perhaps for the politicians, but unlikely it's posturing or theater from the viewpoint of their constituents.
I remember reading something about government not limiting the free exercise of religion or to peaceably assemble...
I don't think Trump has been talking anymore about letting people gather together in churches this coming Sunday, Easter Sunday.
"Letting"?
I might have missed it, but has Trump ever suggested that people's movement and gatherings should be prohibited under force of law, as opposed to making suggestions?
Evers declined the request....
They should do it anyway; it would be pretty poor optics to arrest a bunch of preachers and old ladies.
amid the deadly coronavirus pandemic...the coronavirus pandemic ravaging countries around the world.
No 'news' article is complete without scary socialist propaganda.
Evers declined the request....
Probably an unconstitutional decline, considering all circumstances.
For Easter Sunday I proposed to my Episcopal minister that we hold an outdoor sunrise service, of course with social distancing, absolutely no touching or Holy Communion, etc. Sunrise services, btw, have all but disappeared. Proposal was turned down, either by him or the bishop. Oh, well.
I'm just surprised that the NYT hasn't run this headline:
"Anti-Semite Trump orders synagogues closed for Passover"
I’m not willing to challenge California during a declared emergency to see the extent of their authority to keep me corralled for Public Health. If they are arresting lone surfers because the beaches are closed then I’ve no doubt they would break up church services too. At this point I don’t need to risk jail and fines. My family needs me. My wife is immunocompromised and has limited mobility. We won’t risk her health to prove anything but I think keeping healthy people out of church, even if they keep proper distance, is dumb and likely could be challenged...
By someone else.
At some point you have to let people make their own decisions. Eighty percent of people don't drive carelessly. Americans are smart and will make the right decisions based on their individual circumstances. I see this with the mask thing. Almost no one is wearing their masks just walking down the street or working in their yards. Most people are wearing them in supermarkets.
I'm sure there are parts of Wisconsin, and even NY and NJ, where the incidence of the disease is almost zero. If young healthy people with no known contact with anyone with the disease want to attend services, let them. If you ride the NY subways every day, don't.
Trust them.
Baltimore has closed all its synagogues. Period. Minyanim (groups of ten to pray) are prohibited by the organization of rabbis under any circumstances, even if they can stand apart from one another.
Orthodox Jews pray every day at minyan, several times, so that's probably a bigger deal than churches where many people are only coming for Easter. They pray at home, they study at home, and they use Zoom. People are making seders at home for Passover, sometimes alone, even if they have family in town. We are making four different seders: us, our daughter with her husband and their little kids, another daughter with her husband and their newborn (that we have never held), and our son alone in an apartment elsewhere. This too was the community decision of the organization of Baltimore rabbis.
God will hear us even when we are alone, and this is very hard for us but it's the right decision under the circumstance.
Besides I’m stocking up on ammo and canned goods to survive the coming societal collapse during the Wuhan Depression and WW3 to follow. We might have life and liberty to worry about much more than any right in any amendment.
Evers declined the Republicans request for a waiving of the governor's no gatherings advisory. I'm not qualified to unpack the legality of all that, constitutional or otherwise.
WisGOP might have gotten more traction if the request had included mosques.
Like the Tokyo Olympics, the pols will just move Easter up until next year.
Methinks their fear is that Pope Trump will give out Chloroquine sacraments. Then only the hated Christians will survive and rule the world.
We can all rest easy, on the verge of our collapsing world economic system, under the shadow of China preparing for war (although they are very discouraged by American ingenuity allowing us to survive their bioweapon even though they bought up 3 billion masks in January hoping to corner the market and leave us vulnerable), by the knowledge that at least Ken and Tim got the nationwide 30-day house-arrest they really wanted, based on the flawed models that, like a malfunctioning altimeter, we used to guide ourselves right into a crash. Good times!
Lots of Sunday church services on Facebook.
Yes, it sounds like this was just posturing by the legislators. They knew their idea would be rejected, so they wouldn't have to face the consequences if people went to church, got sick, and died - and if going to church is safe, then going to work is also safe, and why are so many people still at home?
If there are still any drive-in movie theaters around, they could be used for church services. Bring the owners a tidy buck. Keep the theaters going. Maybe start a trend.
See, the six foot rule is really bullshit.
Eleanor said...Putting aside whether congregating in a group to celebrate Easter is a good idea health-wise, isn't prohibiting people from attending church interfering with the free exercise of their religion?
Maybe and No.
No because, IMO, you aren't being prevented...you can still worship God or your religious icon without having to go into an edifice, wearing certain clothing, standing, siting, or any other physical rituals. God is everywhere and is especially in you. Do you think God can only hear if there are a lot of people together "shouting" at him? Do you think God is miffed if you don't or can't participate to the T the exact rituals that the humans running the church have invented?
Maybe, because some people do feel that without all the pre-constructed rituals and someone to tell them HOW to worship it isn't religion. Someone to be in charge and guide the shouting so you don't really have to think about it for yourself.
There is much to be said about the communal aspect of religions and the feeling of fellowship with each other during and after a service. There is also the other aspect of the communal groups excluding and hating others who don't belong to their particular brand of religion. ...Hence all the past and CURRENT religious wars.
(I know this is an unpopular opinion and will get a bunch of push back because it is a touchy subject.. That's OK. Take comfort in that this government take over of your life is temporary...maaaaaybe)
I know what, just have the women’s head coverings moved down and used as face masks. Beats Dr Birx’s latest scarfs.
"Putting aside whether congregating in a group to celebrate Easter is a good idea health-wise, isn't prohibiting people from attending church interfering with the free exercise of their religion?"
Well, Congress shall make no law. But governors can suspend at will. It says so right there in the state constitution -- it does, doesn't it?
So, progs, just to be clear, we are saying that any constitutional right applied by supposed incorporation to the states. i.e., a federal right subject to federal jurisdiction, can now be violated by fiat by a state official for state reasons, correct?
Heh. I first read Ann's "Assembly Republicans" as some particular Protestant denomination.
Alright, we now have social media so we don't need to have religious services in whatever drive-in movie theaters remain, but churches are having drive in services in parking lots - and even in those old drive-ins. There were drive-in services in some places even before coronavirus. A honk means "amen." And of course, authorities in some localities are already banning drive-in church services. Build a better mousetrap, and somebody will find a way to ban it.
coronavirus pandemic ravaging countries around the world.
"No evidence of excess mortality, so far, in the reporting countries, apart from Italy."
Thanks for the heads-up, Lurker21. I hadn't thought about using them for church services, but I've been wondering if drive-in theaters could stage a bit of a comeback through all of this. While there aren't many left, it might be our only option for seeing something on the big screen for quite some time.
There are 60 of us that congregate at a machine shop in Hartland, WI M-F as and essential business. We make components for CAT, which makes stuff that keeps your electricity on.
If I go to work to support the economy, is that a sin? I'd prefer if a liberal atheist could answer.
The speed at which we are giving up our right to assemble is ridiculous.
Watch the creepy Bill Gates CBS Morning show interview he gave last week. He questions whether "mass gatherings" will come back at all. Unless of course we are all vaccinated by one of his vaccines and are willing to be tracked. The guy has a totalitarian streak. He's no saint.
I can understand for measles etc... but does the gov't track who gets a flu shot every year?
I guess the upside to all this is that liberal protesting has taken a pause.
It's awesome that people who don't believe in Jesus Christ and the Resurrection consider going to Church on Easter non-essential.
If I go to work to support the economy, is that a sin? I'd prefer if a liberal atheist could answer.
Atheist, but most definitely not a liberal.
In the context of your use of the word sin, meaning a transgression against divine law, going to work is not a sin and neither is anything else since there's no such thing as divine law.
Okay Gusty winds. Do you also support a reopening love all of the Cannabis stores because of the religious requirements of the rastafaris? Personally I worship NBA basketball. Perhaps we should restart that league as well so I can get back to my spiritual fulfillment.
I suppose if they all went into a mandatory 14 day quarantine afterwards then it would only be themselves that they were placing at risk, not the rest of their community that does not happen to share their feverish brand of spiritual opium.
I am not a regular church goer but my father was
He went to church to be together with others and get a spiritual uplift after taking care of my mother who had MS, all week long.
Church was his one time off for the week.
He loved to sing all the hymns at church.
When he passed away the best card my family received was from a woman we never met who told us my father sat in the same place every week.
She chose to sit in front of him because she enjoyed hearing him sing all the hymns with such intensity and feeling.I believe his singing in church was a true release for him from the caring/nursing of my mother.
I loved that card and have never forgotten it.
People need church gatherings for many reasons.
I will not judge their reasons.
Evers could probably have postponed the primary if he acted a week ago, but not now.
"Americans are smart and will make the right decisions based on their individual circumstances."
Tell that to Madeline Kara Neumann, whose parents tried to pray away her diabetes and let her die .... on Easter Sunday a dozen years ago.
I have relatives in Central Wisconsin, some of those religious folks are certifiable. If their `right decisions' didn't affect others that would be one thing, but they also use the same store as the rest of us.
Religion isn't a virtue. Behaving as the religion suggests is the virtue.
That's true. What is a behavioral protocol without the behavior. Whether it's religion, or its relativistic counterpart, "ethics", people strive.
Do you also support a reopening love all of the Cannabis stores because of the religious requirements of the rastafaris?
Here in Santa Cruz County, Calif., the marijuana “stores” are all open. Essential work, “medical” marijuana, don't'cha know.
Blogger Gusty Winds said...
".....Watch the creepy Bill Gates CBS Morning show interview he gave last week. He questions whether "mass gatherings" will come back at all. Unless of course we are all vaccinated by one of his vaccines and are willing to be tracked. The guy has a totalitarian streak. He's no saint."
Indeed. Bill Gates is on record as being all in for population shrinkage...I recently read that the Kenyan Catholic Medical Association grew suspicious of multiple series of Gates' sponsored vaccines as children were falling ill after having been vaccinated. They sent batches to a lab to be tested only to find that the dosages showed compounds which result in sterilzation and other reproductive issues.
Oops, our bad.
Blogger Mark said...
"Americans are smart and will make the right decisions based on their individual circumstances."
Tell that to Madeline Kara Neumann, whose parents tried to pray away her diabetes and let her die .... on Easter Sunday a dozen years ago.
I have relatives in Central Wisconsin, some of those religious folks are certifiable. If their `right decisions' didn't affect others that would be one thing, but they also use the same store as the rest of us.
4/6/20, 10:53 AM
I raise your one totalitarian reason to impose your own asshole rules because someone screwed up, with the thousands on Americans going to stores every day, maintaining civil decorum, and appropriate protections for themselves and others, doing what they need to do, without a police overwatch.
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