[Jason] Hargrove said drivers are “public workers doing our job, trying to make an honest living, take care of our families.” “For you to get on the bus … and cough several times without covering up your mouth and you know (we’re) in the middle of a pandemic — that lets me know that some folks don’t care.... At some point in time we’ve got to draw the line and say enough is enough. I feel violated"...The viral video is at the link.
April 3, 2020
"Detroit bus driver, who ranted about a coughing passenger, dies from coronavirus."
NY Post headline. Very sad, and I would not have used the disrespectful word "ranted." I would say "despaired."
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Everybody gets the coronovirus, bus drivers faster than some others. Dying isn't the inevitable result, any more than bus accidents.
That did not have to happen. It did not. Humanity is full of stupid morons who do not deserve to walk on hind legs and have an opposing thumb. Nature culls the herd, but in doing so, always takes out the good and deserving in the kill. We continue as a species because of numbers, not because we're brilliant.
We’re at war with China. China manufactures almost all our pharmaceuticals, particularly antibiotics.
In my amateur opinion unsupported by any evidence other than a curious strings of events, I suspect this pandemic is an attack employing a genetically modified bioweapon.
That Trump was sure stupid when he talked about repatriating manufacturing and securing our borders. What a dumb racist!
My son-in-law is an essential infrastructure worker in the NYC metro area. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that I’ve already been infected or will be infected.
A Detroit bus driver felt violated. Well, well, well. I felt violated every time they cut me off, switching lanes without using turn signals; without regard for cars driving bumper to bumper in the lane they decide they needed to be in; without regard for all the crashes they cause. A bunch of bullies.
I feel for him and his family. Very sad.
In Los Angeles a few years ago, they had billboards everywhere reminding people it is a crime to assault your bus driver.
One week ago, the state of Wisconsin claimed we would see between 440 and 1500 deaths in the state by April 8th. As of this morning, there have been 38 reported coronavirus deaths. Either the SIP protocol is working spectacularly well or these people are just pulling numbers out of their asses. Or maybe a combination of both?
Perhaps he contracted the virus from an asymptomatic rider who got off three stops before. Everyone who coughs or sneezes is not infected. This is outright common cold shaming.
Rough cough breakthrough.
He was just panicking. Panicked himself to death.
Bushman, two things can be true at once. You identified two of these things.
The data everyone is using is bullshit.
SIP is undoubtedly helping.
That's quite an anecdote.
That's right John. It isn't really even data at this point it's more like a collection of anecdotes based on assumptions.
You fight the pandemic with the data you have not the data you wish you had.
Apparently there is some of this lack of consideration for fellow humans everywhere.
See Feverish woman spits on health workers on train
And this: Man infected with coronavirus spits at a person as they queued for train tickets in Thailand… then drops dead in the carriage after vomiting and convulsing during the journey
Thomas I think it's better to accept that you will be infected rather than to resign yourself. When you resign yourself it's like you've given up. Don't let your guard down keep your family protected from your son-in-law.
It seems likely to me that we all - including me, a retired man who hasn't left my house property for over three weeks - will inexorably be exposed to the virus.
These present measures are designed to abate the crush on the health system to hopefully manageable levels.
If I'm incorrect, please enlighten me.
I guess the woman was part of that shadowy group of virus-spreading unidentified white supremacists the FBI invented a few weeks ago to feel important.
Being a bus driver is an emotionally hard job at the best of times. Urban life is up to its usual fraying, and then some. The Appalachian Trail is closed too.
"we’ve got to draw the line and say enough is enough"
If we had actual quarantines, you know, all medieval-like, we could actually separate out anyone at risk and anyone with symptoms. No more seniors out on narrow trails, no more coughers in buses. Let people who have recovered sample neighborhoods and enforce the necessary crackdown.
MayBee said...
I feel for him and his family. Very sad.
In Los Angeles a few years ago, they had billboards everywhere reminding people it is a crime to assault your bus driver.
4/3/20, 7:18 AM
Wait, what? So LA spent money to remind folks that a crime against ANYONE is also a crime if done to a bus driver?
Was that done out of "cultural sensitivity"? Like when the EU lets "religion of peace" rapists walk cause they just didn't know any better?
While I feel really bad for this guy and his family that he is now deceased, I'd note a couple of things:
1) This guy was morbidly obese (an unhealthy life choice to begin with). As data from New Orleans is confirming, these patients do not fare well as compared to healthier lifestyles.
2) Why are Democrats insisting on continuing to run mass transit systems in the midst of a global pandemic. Crowding sick people onto buses and subways is GUARANTEED to put the city employees at inordinate risk, not only of contracting the virus, but of passing it on to the unwary passengers. It's GROSSLY UNETHICAL.
3) Was the Democrat mayor of Detroit encouraging people to come on down to Chinatown and have a good ole time like Nancy Pelosi was doing two weeks ago, putting the entire citizenry at risk? What about the downtown YMCA? Is the Detroit Mayor encouraging folks to come on down for a nice hot bath like New York Mayor Bill De Stupido was doing a mere 2 weeks ago?
4) What the hell is anyone doing still in Detroit? or New York? or Chicago? Or LA? Or any of the other Democrat-controlled petri dishes? Don't they realize they're just lab rats and that they're probably going to die horrible deaths by staying in these sh*tholes?
GET. THE. FK. OUT.
And stop voting for Democrats. They're going to kill you all.
Howard said...
You fight the pandemic with the data you have not the data you wish you had.
4/3/20, 7:33 AM
How true! You also adjust your "fight" as new data comes in. Your last battle of a war is not fought the same as your first...
Speak of the devil...
Wilbur: "will inexorably be exposed to the virus"
Yes, we are managing time and resources.
Holman Jenkins, most sane commentator thus far, had a good column in the WSJ Wednesday, Should You Get Covid-19?
Probably. So, not only is the shutdown a ruinous overreaction, it also prevents building up immunity among the healthy young so that we can erect a cordon sanitaire, to coin a phrase, around the old and sick.
Supposedly, we are spending trillions to preserve access to care. For the David Lats, that matters. But resource management is also subject to question: Jenkins cites one study showing that a large majority of people on ventilators die anyway. Not surprising, given their age and condition.
What exactly are the prospects of patients put on ventilators? Leaving aside the massive blow to the economy, and the hoped-for preventive effect, how much are we spending per patient for what kind of average QALY gained?
Wilbur,
"These present measures are designed to abate the crush on the health system to hopefully manageable levels."
The (very valid) question is, at what price?
It seems to me Sebastian that the purpose of delay is not to have more available ventilators but two not overwhelm the medical people and first responders number one number two to figure out what can we do to prevent people from getting to the stage where they need ventilators that's what buying time gets us. You are correct time is money trillions. Fortunately our whole economy is based on a Fiat currency and that is based on the full faith and credit of the people of the United States of America. so one way to look at this as we are protecting our most valuable assets
rh:
You forgot the dough.
All gross people should be shot. It's time to end the scourge of unhygienic self-centered slobs.
Dr. Brix was a tad exasperated yesterday because Americans are not 'bending the curve'.
Does she attribute this to flawed models? Possibility that 'social distancing' as a sure fire stop-gap is more theoretical than a hard scientific fact?
No.
She says Americans are being selfish, and not complying.
Expect your prison cell to have less amenities in the coming days.
Consider this:
What if this COVID-19 experience is a test run for a much more deadly virus that comes down the pike in the next few years?
Obesity is related on deaths, due to increased lung issues.
Could the person have been saved if given Quinine earlier? My guess is yes.
Would have requiring everyone to wear masks have helped? Seems yes. https://masks4all.co/ Unfortunately the US is very anti mask.
How long did it take him to be tested? Early diagnosis saves lives.
brylun: we already had our two outbreaks that does not lead to better pandemic preparation. This time it's not just a read-through
Why haven't plexiglass shield been installed on buses?
It really bugs me that my respect for Howard and Inga has gone up so much during this. Of course not for the clueless ARM, who still sees it as a partisan wedge.
“ It really bugs me that my respect for Howard and Inga has gone up so much during this.”
So has mine, although it doesn’t bug me. What bugs me is how many there are I respect a lot less.
This is a failure of the city of Detroit. Over 1 month ago our city blocked the 1st few rows of every bus, ordered everyone to enter only by the rear doors, and made it free to prevent any contact with the drivers.
Don't want to sound crass or anything BUT was he wearing a mask? Was he doing what he could to protect himself while performing his job?
The woman was rude. There is no way to know if she was "infected". There is no way to know if she infected him.
The only think HE had control over was HIS steps to protect himself. What did he do?
“ Over 1 month ago our city blocked the 1st few rows of every bus, ordered everyone to enter only by the rear doors, and made it free to prevent any contact with the drivers.”
My city too, plus now a limit of 10 passengers.
The obvious solution is to put a Lugar on the desk of everybody over a certain BMI, or age, or with underlying conditions, and let everybody else get back to work.
tim makes a bitter partisan remark complaining about partisanship.
My view has been consistent since the election. Trump is a dumbass who should never have reached the presidency. That failure is on Trump, and on the voters. It is not even a partisan position. It is a judgement about a specific individual.
Everyone who coughs or sneezes is not infected. This is outright common cold shaming.
So who wants to catch her damned cold! If you cough or sneeze on someone, you're a complete ass, regardless of what caused the cough or sneeze.
This is why people who can stay at home absolutely should, because other people do not have the choice, and we have no right to push them aside when it comes to hospital resources.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/03/us/coronavirus-stay-home-rich-poor.html
ARM proves my point.
Aunti Trump acted like she liked me... was that a tease?
It seemed obvious to me that once you revealed who you were that you went with the sock pocket so you could be more reasonable without taking too much heat from your fellow Trump fans.
As a former conservative and Republican voting libertarian, I can relate to the predicament. Most of my best friends are trumper's
"If you cough or sneeze on someone, you're a complete ass, regardless of what caused the cough or sneeze.”
The biggest personal lesson for me from this whole thing is that the world is overstocked with dumbasses. who only care about themselves. You have to protect yourself from them somehow. Bus driver’s boss should have protected him but didn’t.
ARM: IMHO, you are wrong. Trump is not just an individual he is a phenomenon with his own group of loyal supporters. When you go against them that is the essence of partisanship in their minds because Trump is the native son, the party and the movement. A holy Trinity. I am sure my post here will be taken as partisanship and rightly so.
According to the CDC people in public didn't need masks.
It's pretty obvious this was a lie. Everyone should have been wearing masks but since there weren't enough the CDC wanted to prioritize medical personnel. But CDC didn't want to say that transparently because it means they were accepting a lower level of protection for others. Had they done so service providers could have taken the extra protective steps sooner and maybe this guy would still be alive.
Don't want to sound crass or anything BUT was he wearing a mask? Was he doing what he could to protect himself while performing his job?
The woman was rude. There is no way to know if she was "infected". There is no way to know if she infected him.
The only think HE had control over was HIS steps to protect himself. What did he do?
The thing about masks is that they work primarily by preventing the wearer from aerosolizing his/her germs through coughs and sneezes. They work much less well as protection for the wearer from other people's germs.
This is why "cold shaming" is a good thing and something we need to deal with this virus. Countries with a culture of sick people feeling obligated to wear masks in public, like Japan and Taiwan, have suffered a lot less from coronavirus than we have. The sooner we can cold shame people into wearing masks, the better!
“ My view has been consistent since the election. Trump is a dumbass who should never have reached the presidency. That failure is on Trump, and on the voters. It is not even a partisan position. It is a judgement about a specific individuaL.”
The problem ARM is finding a western politician who did better. Who acted earlier, or more effectively. I have found only one, Tom Cotton, in the senate. Trudeau was slower. Macron, Merkel, Johnson, whoever the fuck runs Italy or Spain — slower. Democrats — much slower. No one in the western world has done well. Trump has done less badly than some.
So, Tim is right on this point. You are using it as a wedge.
I notice plexiglass shields turning up in stores this week. Some cities are already testing putting them on buses. One problem may be that you don't want to hamper the driver's freedom of movement if there is a problem in the bus or an accident.
And yes, whatever is wrong with you, don't cough or sneeze on other people or even into the air. Better still, don't get on the bus.
He had a right to rant. RIP, sir.
I’m both not surprised, and surprised that the topic of viral spread and “public” / “mass transit” has not been more visited in discussions of the corona virus.
I’m guessing that eventually our overloads will get around to the discussion, but only after they’re figured out how to talk about it in terms of reducing risk, while still pushing it as the only way to prevent climate change.
He was a sitting duck and had a right to rant. RIP, sir.
why did they allow 3/4 million persons from china, into this country, in the last three months,
“This is why people who can stay at home absolutely should, because other people do not have the choice, and we have no right to push them aside when it comes to hospital resources.”
It’s mostly the Trumpkins who don’t see this. And that is ironic. They have no sense of one of the things that made America great to start with, a sense of duty. If you can you should stay out of the way, not just as self interest but as your duty.
And they will scoff at the word.
conte was their deep state mannikin, they put in place of salvini, spain is headed by a socialist, sanchez whose being led by the tail by a Marxist, Iglesias, who is funded by cabello, the chieftain in Venezuela, germany as we know is hampered by merkel, who apparently contracted the disease,
where has it metastasized, in a red state, no in deep azure ones, where they sold off the ventilators for magic bean bullet trains, or they didn't replace them at all,
“Mostly Trumpkins” I doubt it.
Mostly young people who would give their right nut to stop the distant danger of climate change, but feel themselves invulnerable to the virus
In the spirit of solidarity and commiseration that is breaking out all over, and appreciating that Howard has shed his obnoxious trolling for the moment, I'll take a chance on responding.
"It seems to me Sebastian that the purpose of delay is not to have more available ventilators but two not overwhelm the medical people and first responders number one"
Correct. One reason I referred to "access to care."
"number two to figure out what can we do to prevent people from getting to the stage where they need ventilators that's what buying time gets us."
Reasonable in itself, but unreasonable at current cost, particularly considering that shutdowns affect people who are very unlikely to need ventilators at any point.
"You are correct time is money trillions. Fortunately our whole economy is based on a Fiat currency and that is based on the full faith and credit of the people of the United States of America. so one way to look at this as we are protecting our most valuable assets"
I wish we were. The overreaction lays waste to the economy. Sure, we can play games with the currency, and survive long term in some fashion, since even after the implosion our full faith and credit will still be a great asset relative to everyone else's (but how full, really?), but the risk of ruin is rising.
The specific point I meant to raise, expanding on Jenkins, and one that I think has received little attention, is what costs we should be willing to accept in the actual use resources to deal with actual Wuhan sickness. Concretely, how many millions to add one or two years to the life of an 80-year-old overweight diabetic man?
Ken B said...
whoever the fuck runs Italy — slower.
This is false. The fact that you do not even now the name of the Italian leader might have suggested caution to a more prudent mind.
ARM
Of course Italy was slower. Just look at when they closed the border. Or look at the mayor of Florence.
Lots of people run Italy ARM, mayors included. They have all been slow off the mark.
I await ARM's timeline of the Italian response to covid, and his explanation of why he thinks it successful.
What exactly are the prospects of patients put on ventilators?
I hate it when they put that 'M' on your forehead.
Medical and first responders are still running low on PPE, Rick. What you are describing is triage. You remember all those Red Cross classes you took before becoming a first responder?
Howard said...
Trump is not just an individual he is a phenomenon with his own group of loyal supporters. When you go against them that is the essence of partisanship in their minds because Trump is the native son, the party and the movement. A holy Trinity.
The odd thing here is that I am sympathetic to some of the nominal goals of Trump's supporters. In particular I view the loss of manufacturing capability as a national disaster. I view the extreme financialization of the economy as the driving force underlying the loss of manufacturing and the increase in income inequality. Trump is clearly not a man with the scope of vision to deal with these problems. If he were he would have told Paul Ryan to go fuck himself when he presented a vast give-away to the already rich rather than restore the country's finances in order to prepare for the challenges ahead.
Fortunately, he has been largely side-lined for the moment.
You are correct time is money trillions. Fortunately our whole economy is based on a Fiat currency and that is based on the full faith and credit of the people of the United States of America. so one way to look at this as we are protecting our most valuable assets [Howard]
That is so well put, Howard! I must venture to add that this job of protection would have been a lot easier to achieve had we not squandered so much of those assets prior to this crisis, in our accumulation of deficits, money stolen from future Americans and spent on ourselves.
Do you have any links to coronavirus over response cost/poverty inducing models Sebastian? Things are very hard to predict especially about the future. When there's a fork in the road take it
How many tests for the WuhuFlu are even accurate? Do we know that every test run is being double, triple checked? This whole time there have been concerns about tests resulting in false positives and false negatives. How do we even know that the currently accepted test results figure is correct?
"It’s mostly the Trumpkins who don’t see this. And that is ironic”
I agree with the rest of your statement, but among the people I know it real life, not the ones online who define themselves by political allegiance, the difference is not Trump/Any Democrat that divides their behavior. I think it’s have the money and security to do it, and don’t. I am not going to go into detail writing about the lives of my friends, but it seems to me that what we see from Democrats is mostly lip service based on my observations.
at first they told us there were false positives, now false negatives, just enough to keep us anxious and paranoid,
Tim
Maybe so, in the real world. So I will amend. *Amongst the Althouse commentariat* it’s mostly the Trumpkins who don’t see it. Pretty much exclusively actually.
Of course Trump supporters tend to be less economically secure than Hilary supporters, for example.
ARM: "I support some of the goals of Trump supporters, but not their right to demand redress through their votes.... blah blah blah blah." He never has answered how flooding the low end labor market with cheap undocumented labor is good for the common man with whom he purports to sympathize.
show me where any of these measures have had appreciable results, south korea didn't do shutdowns, show us the real science, behind this flatline,
I don't make light of this person's unfortunate fate, but anecdotal data points are a bad way of learning about this without balance. I'm not seeing any balance in the media at all. It would take enormous courage to even mention any at this point, and would be career ending. Such a reporter would be accused of not being helpful and being as irresponsible as this cougher, but that dynamic itself is not helping, unless you subscribe to the idea that people should not know all the truth.
From Wikipedia:
The first lockdowns began around 21 February 2020, covering eleven municipalities of the province of Lodi in Lombardy,
Early on Sunday 8 March 2020, Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte announced the expansion of the quarantine zone to cover much of northern Italy.
At this point: The lockdown measures implemented by Italy were considered the most radical measure implemented against the outbreak outside of the lockdown measures implemented in China.
On the evening of 9 March, the quarantine measures were expanded to the entire country.
And no one is suggesting that Italy has been a success, except perhaps Pence and the President.
tim in vermont said...
the common man
Run away income inequality has been good for the 'common man'? This is on Republicans. I have never once heard a Republican deal in a realistic manner with this problem.
I don't have a problem with immigration restriction. I have never expressed a problem with immigration restriction on this blog. I view countries as cabals that should do their best for their people. I was America first long before Trump. I am also Australia first, Italy first, and so on. If countries decide to cooperate well and good, but not at the expense of their own people.
Howard said...
Medical and first responders are still running low on PPE, Rick.
No shit. If you didn't assume everyone except yourself was a complete idiot maybe you wouldn't make such stupid and nonresponsive comments.
What you are describing is triage.
Wrong. That's what you interpreted because you need to feed your self-superiority. The truth was triage. But I am describing the lie that people didn't need masks [while the truth was they did need them to be safe but they aren't available]. The lies convinced people they did not need additional safety measures and if people understood the truth they could have taken more safety precautions [like the plexiglass in this story] sooner which might have saved this man.
Sorry this is beyond your third grade comprehension level.
You remember all those Red Cross classes you took before becoming a first responder?
Maybe if you could read you'd be less of an asshole. But probably not.
"Run away income inequality has been good for the 'common man'? This is on Republicans. I have never once heard a Republican deal in a realistic manner with this problem.”
Undermining their bargaining power through unrestricted illegal immigration which you support through your support of Democrats, for whom this policy is Holy Writ, is a sure way to address income enequality, and up to this pandemic, it was working, wages were rising at the bottom. Why do you think that the rich have migrated to the Democrat Party? To keep the deplorables at the bottom under control. Democrats have no realistic way to deal with income inequality.
I am sure that as unemployment reaches world historical levels, the Democrats will still insist on importing illegal aliens because they want the votes.
As usual, ARM’s talking points are way past their sell-by date.
It would be funny if it weren't going to cost lives and treasure:
Jared's coronavirus taskforce is like 'a frat party' which descended from UFO, says official, as President's son-in-law brags publicly that he knows better than governors what's needed and says stockpile 'does not belong to states, it's ours'
I guess peace in the Middle East was too easy.
tim in vermont said...
your support of Democrats
Unlike you I don't belong to a team. I think they have all failed the American people in different ways. But, we currently have a Republican president and in the last two disasters, where the president failed to step up (9/11 and the financial collapse), we also had a Republican president. Of course they receive more criticism. Fucking disasters - bankrupted the country with outdated financial policies and useless wars.
"Do you have any links to coronavirus over response cost/poverty inducing models Sebastian? Things are very hard to predict especially about the future."
Correct. No, I don't have any fancy models. But going by the news coverage, both preparations for care and actual delivery amount to heroic interventions that, if we take Jenkins's reference as a data point, are futile in a substantial proportion of cases, driving up the average cost of success. Even then, of course, we should evaluate "success"--what if half of the people "saved" in fact have a life expectancy of, say, less than 5?
Things will be a little easier to predict if we get some evidence on actual costs and benefits, at the point of care. Of course, one thing is predictable: staying the current course is economically ruinous.
Then again, without ARM, how would we keep apprised of the talking points the Dems are putting out? IDK, maybe by tuning into any media source at all whatsoever?
"Detroit bus driver, who ranted about a coughing passenger, dies from coronavirus."
NY Post headline.
So we know that this "cougher" was the cause of this man's death?
"Fucking disasters - bankrupted the country with outdated financial policies and useless wars.”
Read Geithner’s book. He refers to people like you as “Moral Hazard Fundamentalists.” He created the economic system of financing private wealth at government expense and nationalizing the losses. You say he did “everything right” which is just one more demonstration of your cluelessness.
It’s all “Go Team Blue, Go!” with you, you are just oblivious to it.
Geithner’s book is one more proof of Mark Twain’s adage that you can’t hide your true self in an autobiography, no matter how hard you try.
Income inequality is 90%+ envy.
ARM
Dates from the first 100 cases. Italy had a lot of flights back and forth to Wuhan.
Even on its face 9 march was late in Italy.
"Buckwheathikes said...
"Why are Democrats insisting on continuing to run mass transit systems in the midst of a global pandemic[?]"
Because some people don't have cars. Duh. What an "I'm all right, Jack" attitude!
How are medical personnel and other essential workers supposed to get to work if they don't have cars? How are people with medical conditions other than COOVID-19 supposed to get to their medical appointments if they don't have cars?
Now having said that, I agree with Greg that steps must be taken to make public transit safer. Where I live, too, they've instituted rear boarding and mandatory six-foot separation.
Tim, you are a remarkably bitter partisan who lacks the imagination to understand that other people use different frameworks for thinking about the world.
I supported the bailout, reluctantly, but I also supported a fundamental down-scaling of the financial system as proposed by Elizabeth Warren and by Steve Bannon. You are team red all the time.
"Unlike you I don't belong to a team."
To blame Presidents from one party for things like COVID-19, 9/11, and the onset of the Recession makes this impossible to buy, and nobody is.
Ken B said...
Macron, Merkel, Johnson, whoever the fuck runs Italy or Spain — slower.
Trump has done less badly than some.
These are two statements that are not entirely consistent with the facts, as noted above. The virus arrived in the US not long after Italy, well before the block of some flights to China.
Of your list only Johnson failed to grasp the seriousness of the situation early on. Germany has done remarkably well.
bagoh20 said...
the onset of the Recession makes this impossible to buy
So you think unnecessary, bankrupting wars and a bubble economy was a good idea? No one wants to take any responsibility for their failed policies. I look at the failures and assign blame, like every rational person.
Tim in Vermont wrote: "The obvious solution is to put a Lugar on the desk of everybody over a certain BMI, or age, or with underlying conditions,"
I am 67 and have a leukemic type blood disorder, do I get two Lugers? Would you know which models you'd send, a PO8 or two would be fine.
The bus system here introduced the board from the rear rule a fortnight ago; an addition this week has been yellow scene-of-crime tape (it is yellow, in any case) hung behind the driver's-- sorry, the operator's-- seating area. And they are all wearing masks. I won't have to use it again until Monday.
There are hand-washing stations (think the hand-washing station equivalent of those portable toilets) at many of the bus stops now; have never seen anyone use one of them.
Yesterday's taxi driver was mask-wearing but quite garrulous in spite of the fact that I was maskless. He invited me to sit in the front (roomier) seat, too, although I remembered to offer (or make a show of offering) to sit in the back.
Blogger Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
So you think...a bubble economy was a good idea?
This is how you can identify ARM's partisanship. Dems rest their case as competent economic managers on the Bill Clinton 90s. And those were good days although we also know (1) it had almost nothing to do with Democrats and (2) the excellence was a reflection of the tech bubble. Yet no left winger including ARM ever criticizes Dems for this bubble. Every standard he advances is applied solely to Reps.
So it's laughable someone who has commented for a decade and literally every post is partisan also claims not to be partisan.
"Tim, you are a remarkably bitter partisan who lacks the imagination to understand that other people use different frameworks for thinking about the world.”
So that’s why flooding the low skill labor market doesn’t hurt low end wages. Oh, that’s right, the kids who were never any good at math just need to pull up their boot straps and get better, because those jobs that used to be there for them are now going to immigrants, and there is nothing that can be done about that because Democrats need the votes.
You have the lack of imagination about the implications of Democrat policies on labor. You think that the government can override market forces on supply and demand with diktats about how people should be paid more than they are worth as a better solution than raising the value of low skill work by increasing its scarcity.
Howard said...
ARM: IMHO, you are wrong. Trump is not just an individual he is a phenomenon with his own group of loyal supporters. When you go against them that is the essence of partisanship in their minds because Trump is the native son, the party and the movement. A holy Trinity. I am sure my post here will be taken as partisanship and rightly so.
4/3/20, 9:20 AM
Yep, totally unique, No politician has ever had a more loyal following! Why next, school kids will be signing his praise! (oh wait, that was the last guy)
Next a poor little rodeo clown that always don a mask of the President will get run out of his job for wearing a mask of Trump! (oh wait, that was the last guy)
Next some poor schlep of a plumber will ask Trump an awkward question and get hounded and doxxed by the media! (oh wait, that was the last guy)
Next thing you know people will get so wrapped up in this stuff that they will start attacking his "fans". Yep that did and does happen to "Trump supporters" though not as much any more.
But sure, a President's supporters "idolizing" him has NEVER been seen before to this level. It is like a CULT I tells ya! Cause Obama (the light worker) was NEVER idolized or worshiped to this level by his fans, the media, the Nobel Prize Committee...
The cause of the recession is pretty well documented. It was foolish policy by Clinton and the Congress, with many Republicans going along with it, but when Republicans, especially the Bush Administration tried to roll it back, well, the videos are out there of them being mocked and derided by Barney Frank and others right up to the collapse. I notice you left out the other two disasters after blaming only Republicans for them, and the videos are out there proving that false too, and you know it, but since you are in fact, a team player, you force your eyes away, and keep pointing fingers the wrong direction. That's OK, just don't try to sell that you are fair or reasonable.
Rick I'm terribly sorry you don't fundamentally understand how this world works the lie was part of the triage. If they sent a mixed message more of the medical PPE would have been gobbled up like toilet paper.
Bush and Republicans controlled both house and Senate, plus key state houses, especially Florida. Take some fucking responsibility, man. Failed Republican polices. If the Democrats had overseen such a train wreck I would call them on it. This is how adults work.
"I am 67 and have a leukemic type blood disorder, do I get two Lugers?”
Are you planning a Vince Foster type suicide: “Bang! ..... Bang!"
So the answer is no, you have no explanation as to how mass immigration does not increase income inequality.
You know how stupid you are Rick? You think I supported the Clintons. I cannot stand the Clintons, but when it comes to incompetence they are rank amateurs compared to the last two Republican administrations.
For the record, under Clinton we had a balanced budget. When was last time that was true for a Republican president? Fiscal vandals.
People should have gone to jail in 2008, failing that, they should have been hung from lamp posts. That’s on Obama
In ARM’s world, purblind obtusity counts as “imagination."
As I have pointed out, repeatedly, I have no problem with restrictions on immigration. It is employers like bagoh20 who rely on undocumented workers, as he has acknowledged in the past. It is the Chamber of Commerce that blocks E-verify, not me.
tim in vermont said...
they should have been hung from lamp posts
No one was stopping you. Those deficit hawks the Tea Party were out in the streets protesting, I can't recall chants of 'kill the bankers'.
" I have no problem with restrictions on immigration. “
"I just wouldn’t vote for any politician that supports them on a bet."
As you can see, people have things that are important to them, and things that are not. You like to blather about “income inequality” and yet care so little about it, you have scratched it off of your list as to voting issues. I haven’t. I believe in markets, I am a ‘moral hazard fundamentalist” I believe in supply and demand. I think that we should decouple our economy from China’s post haste, and believed that before they stabbed us in the back. I think there should be a tarrif not just on Chinese steel, etc, but on imported oil as well.
Those are my hot button issues, not how polished some guy looks at a press conference as he is pestered by people with hostile questions who have no interest in getting information to people who desperately need it.
I am not a Republican, I support Trump, he happens to have hi-jacked that party and good on him for it.
“In ARM’s world, purblind obtusity counts as “imagination."”
Could be worse. In Drago's it counts as math.
It’s. funny though, thinking back on threads when ARM demanded people answer his questions, which always made me laugh then too, so see him refuse to answer my question about supply and demand of cheap labor. It’s almost as if the admission that a Trump policy was both supported in theory and, as we know, worked in practice to reduce income inequality would kill him.
Howard said...
Rick I'm terribly sorry you don't fundamentally understand how this world works the lie was part of the triage.
So you support their lies which means this man's resulting death was your choice. It's interesting the anti-Trumpers treat every death they can blame others as a tragedy proving their moral failings while waving away the deaths their own choices cause as if they don't matter. It's almost like they have different standards for themselves vs everyone else.
If they sent a mixed message more of the medical PPE would have been gobbled up like toilet paper.
They did send a mixed message, that this wan't particularly contagious since we don't even need protection in public. And now those very people are mad people picked up on this. Did you weigh the additional deaths this mixed message will cause? Apparently not since you're currently blaming any additional deaths on these people instead of the mixed messaging you support.
Like I said, ARM. The videos are online of the Dems in Congress fighting the oversight of the Bush administration. You know that. They were widely published. Just like with 9/11, yea Republicans were in office, when the shit hit the fan, but Clinton's failures were the cause.
"It is employers like bagoh20 who rely on undocumented workers, as he has acknowledged in the past."
Just pure bullshit. We have used E-verify since it first became available, and continued to until California's 100% Democrat control made it illegal. Under Obama, employers were told not to use it, and were threatened with fines and lawsuits. One of the reasons I left California. We require documents and have them independently reviewed.
What happened to you dude. You were always wrong on stuff, but lately this virus has made you kinda crazy.
Tim, you seem to know almost nothing about economics. To focus on one relatively small element in our vast economic system as the 'cause' of income inequality is nuts. It's not sort of nuts, or kind of nuts, it is completely nuts. You are a crank.
Illegal immigrants did not send the manufacturing, and now white collar, jobs to China or India. Illegal immigrants didn't bust the unions. Illegal immigrants didn't write the tax laws to strongly favor capital over labor. Illegal immigrants didn't write the tax laws to favor financialization over long horizon investing. Illegal immigrants didn't neuter E-verify. Illegal immigrants didn't give Mitch McConnell millions of dollars. Illegal immigrants don't count for much at all in our enormous economic system at all.
And, since you are so dense, I favor strict application of E-verify.
bagoh, just repeating what you have said here previously, that you had employed undocumented workers, which you seem to be now blaming Obama for.
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...You think I supported the Clintons.
I think you support Dems because...you do. You've made thousands of comments and not one conflicts with this. Your criticizing long past Dems is the same public relations tactic as left wingers who praise dead Reps because it furthers their attacks on current Reps. You use it to try to protect your comments from being recognized as partisan hackery.
For the record, under Clinton we had a balanced budget
We had a balanced budget only because both (1) Reps forced fiscal discipline on him and (2) the private sector massively improved the economy leading to greatly increased tax receipts. If he had his own way he would have spent every nickel he could beg, borrow, or steal just like every other Dem.
"To focus on one relatively small element in our vast economic system as the 'cause' of income inequality is nuts. It's not sort of nuts, or kind of nuts, it is completely nuts. You are a crank. “
Supported by evidence. I never said it was *the cause* I said that it exacerbates it in obvious ways.
"Illegal immigrants did not send the manufacturing, and now white collar, jobs to China or India”
No, that would be globalists like Obama, Bush, and the people who are supporting the Weekend at Bernies candidacy of Biden. They same globalists that pushed the impeachment of Trump for looking into Biden corruption and election interference out of Ukraine. For simply *asking* for a few documents. Globalists like Hillary Clinton, who, BTW, was the only alternative offered by Democrats.
"Illegal immigrants don't count for much at all in our enormous economic system at all. “ Spoken like a man safely ensconced <<--- is that a word thing today? away from labor competition. They count a lot to a lot of Trump voters, for whom the competition is a daily reality.
Saying that you support e-verify in some kind of blowhard way when you would never ever vote for a politician who supports it is a joke.
Arguing with low wattage commenters like ARM isn’t worth the effort. I wish I could find something to argue with J Farmer about.
I didn't make the world Rick I certainly never said I supported that tactic. But a lot of tough decisions are going to need to be made life-and-death decisions and sometimes that involves deception. I accept that I accept that we don't live in Disneyland.
Anyways focusing on the past like that it's not helpful. Time to follow the advice of our fearless leader Donald J Trump: mask up keep separated and move on
It is nice to see ARM praising the Contract With America though, even though the press at the time was going on about “How the Gingrich Stole Christmas."
I look forward to Canada's economic collapse as he cheers on the US economic calamity.
Howard said... But a lot of tough decisions are going to need to be made life-and-death decisions and sometimes that involves deception.
It's interesting he's now worked himself around to admitting my original comment was correct, that the CDC lied. But there's always a fight to be had first.
Tim
Farmer gave up when the covidiot denialists got too much for him. He might be back sometime, but there really isn’t much left here now is there?
ARM
What exactly is “runaway income equality?” Are you including in that the fact that I have money that otherwise you would have gotten? Or is this a statement that seems to flow smoothly, a statement you like, a semi woke kind of thingy to write.
Tim is having something of a melt-down here. It is not my fault that Republican presidents have performed so poorly in recent administrations. I am just a commenter.
Keep looking in the rearview mirror and playing the blame game Rick if you think that'll help you get past the apex of the pandemic.
Michael said...
What exactly is “runaway income equality?”
https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html
There are three possibilities here:
1. An accidental but dangerous pandemic.
2. A hyped-up sinister plot by the global elite to grab power and tank the global economy.
3. Both 1 & 2: The global elite using an actual pandemic to grab power and tank the global economy.
I'm inclined to believe 3 but I'm not certain what to believe or whom to believe at this point.
I never said that sending factories overseas wasn’t a sop to the coasts who make money no matter who makes the widgets. It’s strange that you can’t understand that there is only one realistic choice who has taken this problem on, and it wasn’t the guy who said “I don’t have a magic wand” or “we can’t drill our way to energy independence” who always seemed to be photographed with a halo.
Throwing unskilled labor to the wolves through the policy of importing scabs in massive numbers is only one aspect of the screwing that the coastal elites have put to the working class in America. It’s pretty important symbolically, and makes a real difference in the lives of working people.
Joe Biden is the candidate that the globalists have put up, and whine about them as you do in your blowhard yet low wattage pontificating here, you are still going to advocate for the globalist’s choice come the election.
Would you be so kind as to name the Democrat who has advocated decoupling our economy from that of China? Your take has always been the same as Obama’s, that it would take a magic wand, it ain’t gonna happen. "Those jobs are gone.” "Get over it people and take your dole checks," that kind of thing.
Howard has his eye on the ball. ARM is just doing GOTV for Trump.
“Never let a crisis go to waste” is how the Democrats put it back in the day.
that's a reasonable hypothesis, no. 3
And I apologize for posting this comment in two different thread but I received an error message the first time and I assumed it didn't post and, with the long delay, there was no way to check it.
Michael said...
What exactly is “runaway income equality?”
There are two things to understand about income inequality in America.
1. The public numbers do not include existing tax and transfers. After they are included our income inequality is within the range of countries critics compare us to. The statistics are specifically designed to mislead in this fashion. People who cite them are liars.
2. Part of the left's desire to mass-import people who lack the education and cultural knowledge to function in modern economy is to keep this number up. So the best thing we can do to solve income inequality is keep out uneducated labor.
Howard said...
Keep looking in the rearview mirror and playing the blame game Rick
It's interesting that even though we all know your position was an idiotic fuckup driven by your need to preen you still think you can pose as "above it all". In reality you're the a-hole who can't converse because your ego demands you misunderstand everyone's comments so you can justify attacking them.
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
Ken B said...
whoever the fuck runs Italy — slower.
This is false. The fact that you do not even now the name of the Italian leader might have suggested caution to a more prudent mind.
Hurr durr, I has a Google,
Who is in charge of Italy?
The current president is Sergio Mattarella, and the current prime minister is Giuseppe Conte. The Economist Intelligence Unit rated Italy as a "flawed democracy" in 2017. A high degree of fragmentation and instability, leading to often short-lived coalition governments, is characteristic of Italian politics.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Politics of Italy - Wikipedia
AND a Wiki. Look! Now I'm better than Ken B. Oh wait-that's what he said, seriously but not literally. So it's a tie.
"A more prudent mind." ARM, I often don't like Ken B's tone, don't always agree with him, and he is a fucking Canadian even if he can't help it, but rest assured:
Ken B craps bigger than you.
When even fucking Garbage Howie* is schooling you, you got a problem. What next, Inga has to take you to the woodshed? Robert Cook gotta tell you to renounce your preconceptions and doff your character armor? Get a life. Don't your lips get sore from sucking so bad?
*cheap rhetoric, Howard can be solid when he sees fit; 'the gunslinger would have understood.'
Blogger Ken B said...
Tim
Farmer gave up when the covidiot denialists got too much for him. He might be back sometime, but there really isn’t much left here now is there?
As for you, my dear fellow: J-Farm has his own issues but NOBODY drives Baby off the blog! He's been around longer than you have and I think he would offer you this excellent advice: quit getting i to personalities, it's a trap if you're capable of better. If he's not here, he's elsewhere doing elsewhat.
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