[Yassin Hussein Moyo, 13] had been standing on his third-floor balcony in a shantytown in Nairobi, watching police storm the neighborhood, beating people who refused to abide by the curfew with their batons, when a police bullet struck his stomach....The curfew, which requires people to stay in their homes from dusk to dawn, is the most stringent limitation and has led to a wave of police violence.... On Saturday morning, a motorcycle taxi driver died from injuries that his family says he sustained from being beaten by a policeman after he dropped off a pregnant woman at a hospital after curfew....
३१ मार्च, २०२०
"Yassin told me that he had been hit, and I told him to stop his jokes because he likes to joke a lot. He said, ‘Mama, I am not lying, I have been shot. I swear I have been shot.'"
From "Kenyan police shot dead a teenager on his balcony during a coronavirus curfew crackdown" (WaPo).
याची सदस्यत्व घ्या:
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
९५ टिप्पण्या:
Coming soon to a Democrat run city near you!
Step out to go grab a gallon of milk and you are taking your life in your hands! Isn't leftist run America great?
And have any of our Democrat power hungry governors and Mayors ever hinted they will ever let these "emergency" powers go?
Expect lots of vigilante violence around the world, including here, before this is all over. Regimes will fall over COVID. They've fallen over much less.
The authorities simply cannot be counted on not to overplay their hand, and people are getting more & more desperate.
Will anyone here say “he would have died eventually”, or ask if he had diabetes, asthma, or heart disease? Will we hear about the Kenyan death rate from police brutality, or how many Kenyans die each day of sleeping sickness?
No. But we do and will hear that kind of thing on the covid threads.
Why don't you spare yourself then Ken?
What took them so long? Government to it's logical end. Worse is on the way.
Expect a Black Lives Matter riot any minute now.
Ken B said...
Will anyone here say “he would have died eventually”, or ask if he had diabetes, asthma, or heart disease? Will we hear about the Kenyan death rate from police brutality, or how many Kenyans die each day of sleeping sickness?
No. But we do and will hear that kind of thing on the covid threads.
1 person has died in Kenya from COVID-19. They have 57 active cases. 2 critical.
1 person has been shot for standing on his balcony.
Ken is willing to give up our freedom if it saves even one life apparently.
Horrible. Life is cheap in Kenya. But it was for his own good, after all. He should have trusted the experts and stayed inside.
I'm confused Ken. Are you suggesting that shooting the kid is about recognizing the needs of the many out way the needs of the one? Or are you suggesting the police desire to abuse their authority to protect the masses from a disease may have gone too far. I don't usually read you, so I don't know your political stance. However your cynicism is clear even if could be used on the side of more social distancing measures to protect people from COVID or the side of cutting back on authoritarian management of the people and the return of basic freedoms even if it means more might die from COVID.
Black cops killing black people. Unheard of.
Another example of how all cultures are equal.
Ken B said...
Will anyone here say “he would have died eventually”, or ask if he had diabetes, asthma, or heart disease? Will we hear about the Kenyan death rate from police brutality, or how many Kenyans die each day of sleeping sickness?
It's interesting that this kid died as a result of Ken's preferences but he manages to slime others with it. Some people are just disgusting.
He would have committed a capital crime eventually.
Patrick Henry: "Give me liberty or give me death!"
Today's leftists: "Dictatorship must be enforced all in the name of saving one life! No more freedoms for you! Asking to go to church means children die, you monster!"
A "staycation" that family will never forget.
Life is cheap in Kenya
Life? I'm not familiar with their excess deaths. People... persons, perhaps.
Expect a Black Lives Matter riot any minute now.
Hutu vs Tutsi, or the lynching phenomena that followed the end of apartheid in South Africa, in modern times.
Today's leftists: "Dictatorship must be enforced all in the name of saving one life!
Not today, not ever, not one life, or a million. In mortal gods, goddesses, and Stork, they trust.
He would have committed a capital crime eventually.
A decade, two, a century from now. The Precautionary Principle.
COVID-19 is essentially non-existent in Kenya. WTF is going on here?
Is it time to call in those debts and put a chicken coop and a huge pile of bullets on the credit card?
Not just sickening but entirely senseless. Who the hell was he going to infect from a third-floor balcony? Not that it would be justified even if he would have spread it from there, but the disease doesn't even enter into the logic. It only sets the stage for "do as I say or I'll kill you."
Shit, I'm in a fairly famous hotspot and I'm allowed out on the goddamn balcony.
That poor kid. That poor mother. I hope the murderer gets justice, in whatever form it catches up with him.
Good thing that hysteria could never happen here. https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/travel/a31981983/we-got-stuck-in-the-county-north-carolina-closed-for-covid-19/
Ken B: "Will anyone here say “he would have died eventually”, or ask if he had diabetes, asthma, or heart disease? Will we hear about the Kenyan death rate from police brutality, or how many Kenyans die each day of sleeping sickness?
No. But we do and will hear that kind of thing on the covid threads."
Ken, really?
This child was killed because the govt took action in accordance with your strongest wishes.
If it can save just one person, we have to be prepared to sacrifice many in support of our lock down procedures.
JPS: "Not just sickening but entirely senseless. Who the hell was he going to infect from a third-floor balcony?"
He dared to violate "reasonable" and "prudent" government rules.
Almost no one I discuss the virus with think I have a point when I am dismayed that we are giving up SO much individual freedoms over this POTENTIAL health catastrophe.
枪杆子里面出政权
Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
-- Mao Zedong
And Kenya’s one of the more stable, civilized states. I wonder what’s the theory behind the curfew. Is covid worse at night in Kenya?
Clyde: "枪杆子里面出政权
Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.
-- Mao Zedong"
The lefties/LLR's are still in full Chinese Communist Government Defense Mode, so your timely quote reference will not have the effect you would hope it might.
Life is cheap in Kenya
Not so much in the US evidently. Another bill in the works to bring total spent in the name of the pandemic to $6,000,000,000,000. To save approximately 600,000 lives. $10,000,000 each.
My local rag has a ton of leftist commentators screaming that the Republican governor is killing people by not implementing a full, shoot on sight curfew/shutdown of everyone in the state.
It's ridiculous. My state is broken down into "health districts." Since we have a large rural area, the "Central Utah Health District" is likely the size of Massachusetts. We just today got our first confirmed case of Covid 19... in an area the size of Massachusetts.
Why on earth should we be put into a shelter in place/ we will kill you if we see you without papers. style Soviet Dictatorship like Ken B and the leftists want? Heck, the vast majority of people in rural places already practiced "social distancing" anyway... how close is the neighbor when you are out plowing your 40 acres?
The question needs to be asked: What is the maximum number of people the government ought to be able to kill and imprison in order to enforce their lockdown policies that will save [checks notes] 2.2 Million lives?
wait till they bring out the ed 209s, or the sentinels,
L.A. Bureaucrats Shut Down Restaurants for Selling Groceries Without a Permit
"You cannot just decide you want to sell groceries," said Barbara Ferrer, the director of L.A. County Public Health.
Sorry restaurant. We insist you go out of business and are not able to sell off assets that others want and need.
Another "reasonable" and "prudent" measure taken by Wise Leaders of California.
This is how it occurs....bit by bit. Inch by inch. Arresting people in Michigan for going to the grocery store. Killing because you dare to step outside your hovel.
But...It can't happen here according to Frank Zappa...they would freak out in Minnesota.
(i'm sorry. excuse me 😛)
"Power don't come from a badge or a gun...
"Power comes from lying."
Omaha paper publishes story predicting up to 900 deaths in Nebraska. Crazy.
All the mini-Mussolinis are feeling empowered - from US mayors and governors to cops in Kenya.
Ken B said...
Will anyone here say “he would have died eventually”, or ask if he had diabetes, asthma, or heart disease?
Some of us have concealed carry permits, and we don't worry about that shit.
Last week I bought a Smith & Weston AR-15. It's black and scary looking. Like an assault weapon.
My theory? A drug deal gone bad.
Narr
It'll work until we can tie it to Trump
Sad to say, but in some places law enforcement attracts the very worst of society.
Narr
OK, lots of places
"Kenyan police shot dead a teenager on his balcony"
That could have been Obama.
It'll work until we can tie it to Trump
Or a White Hispanic[-American]. Anything with "white" in the label. Diversity rules.
This is GOOD though, right?
I mean if one,or two,or thirty,or forty killings prevent ONE covid-19 death; it's GOOD!
i mean, RIGHT?
Had company on Saturday. Peripheral in law got two seperate phone calls from friends saying they had been pulled over and asked where they were going. One in Freno California, one in Milwaukee.
Now they were both young men , so may have been stretching the truth.
I hesitate to think it was because they are black. Of course, have no idea if they are gangster looking cruising gated community in lowered '87 Oldsmobile, or just going shopping.
Makes me think of "Johnny Was" from Bob Marley and the Wailers' Rastaman Vibration album.
A very sad song...
Omaha paper publishes story predicting up to 900 deaths in Nebraska. Crazy.
It's a plausible outcome given the Wuhan virus (SARS-CoV-2) and Covid-19 disease follow certain, repeatable immigration/migration patterns. Well, SARS-CoV-2 or another pathogen that mimics its symptoms, passes the test, and is classified under a conflation of causes.
And have any of our Democrat power hungry governors and Mayors ever hinted they will ever let these "emergency" powers go?
Well, OBVIOUSLY! they can NOT end the "emergency powers" during the panicdemic, can they?
And; they are ALREADY saying, that the "emergency powers" will continue until the summer
AND! They are ALREADY saying, that Covid-19 will be back with us, next fall
We are At WAR with Covid-19, we have ALWAYS been AT WAR with Covid-19
I heard that Rachel Madcow is Already organizing a daily 2 Minute Hate
She's just not quite sure who all (besides Trump, and Covid-19) to Hate
I’m following the Scott Adams rule. If you aren’t prepared to give a number for whatever position you are advocating, you are not thinking, you are emoting, and you are not to be taken seriously.
Despite days of asking, no one had yet told me how many cases / deaths they are willing to live with alongside a return to normal conditions. So, they are not thinking, they are emoting.
bit by bit. Inch by inch.
Step by step. Inch by Inch.
And our previously happily gunless household now owns a shotgun. Possibly more to come.
It really is a strange dynamic where the law-and-order right wing wants less government control, and the do-whatever-you-want-"liberal" left wing now demands total compliance with authority, and the more authority the better. Most of us started out on the leftward side, or at least the liberal side of that, but it seems like everybody moved to entirely new corners.
I think the difference is who has a respect or even reverence for the American experience and our unique outlook codified in the Constitution. Those of us who really respect that, have a justified fear of central authority and dictators, local, state, or national. The whole world has a long history of things going the way of this small story, but on a large scale.
The founders had first hand experience with it, and that's what informed the whole experiment. Back then people died in much higher relative numbers over all kinds of things, and death wasn't the worst thing that could happen. Something that might kill one out of 1000 people would never be considered worth throwing away your liberty for.
I'm not saying we're throwing away our liberty wholesale, but we are cutting off pieces, and I don't think it's absurd or radical to be concerned about it, becuase that is a serious risk right now too, and if we do it wrong, there won't be some scientific breakthrough or vaccine to fix it next year.
Wait a minute, I thought that Kenya was run by black people?
How could this happen? I thought that black people were randomly killed because of white racism? And it wasn't supposed to happen if black people were in charge?
My world has been rocked, like, totally. Please help. Pleeeeeease.
@Pants
how many cases / deaths they are willing to live with alongside a return to normal conditions.
I haven't been following every thread, so I missed the number you posted. Would you repost that? Thanks.
Everyone is special to somebody.
It's important to realize that people dying today from COVID-19 caught it at least 10 days ago and probably before that. A lot has changed since then.
pants asked
no one had yet told me how many cases / deaths they are willing to live with alongside a return to normal conditions.
i'd be okay with 200,000 worldwide, and 30,000 US, which would be about half of the 2017-2018 flu
The wording of the headline, "Kenyan police shot dead a teenager on his balcony during a coronavirus curfew crackdown," implies the police targeted the teen, while the article implies it was a bullet meant for neighbors "who refused to abide by the curfew."
Bad either way, but a hint that we're being emotionally manipulated again.
I’m following the Scott Adams rule. If you aren’t prepared to give a number for whatever position you are advocating, you are not thinking, you are emoting, and you are not to be taken seriously.
Am important rule that, if enough people insisted on it, could elevate our discourse. Even on social media.
And Kenya’s one of the more stable, civilized states.
Unlike most folks here, I have been in Kenya. Twelve years ago I was in Nairobi with my daughter on our way to climbing to the top of Mount Kilimanjaro (we both made it to the top). We spent several days in Nairobi, before moving on to Arusha, Tanzania.
Kenya is stable and civilized, but not in the way we are stable and civilized here. We were in a hotel in a nice neighborhood, but still we were advised not to go out early in the morning, or after dusk. And not to wander around by ourselves.
The average life expectancy in Kenya is 67 years, much lower than here. The level of economic prosperity is much lower there than here. I would say that compared to here, life in Kenya can be described as Hobbs did: "nasty, brutal and short."
Consequently, police powers take this into account, in my opinion.
I am convinced that you can never appreciate what we have here in America until you travel and actually experience what it is like elsewhere in this world.
ny-coronavirus-doctors-sick
- NYT via marrket-ticker.org
Hospitals, medical staff have become redistribution points of Wuhan-virus (SARS-CoV-2) and the Covid-19 pandemic, through bad practices (e.g. hand hygiene), and overrun by people fearful and acting on the Precautionary Principle, herded by spreaders of the social contagion. So much for containment. In other news, Planned Parenthood has promised to relieve social "burdens" and will remain open to provided reproductive rites throughout the pandemic. #EveryLifeMatters
I think this story below should be filed under Fen's law:
He was in close contact with a diagnosed infected person, and was sent home for 14 days with pay, but refused to follow CDC quarantine, and returned to head a strike endangering the very people he claimed the strike was designed to protect from the disease. The NY AG agreed with him. What a couple of dicks, and nobody needs a couple of dicks.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/fired-amazon-employee-returned-to-work-to-organize-strike-after-being-ordered-to-quarantine/
"Despite days of asking, no one had yet told me how many cases / deaths they are willing to live with alongside a return to normal conditions. So, they are not thinking, they are emoting."
I am missing your number of cases/deaths you are willing to live with.
Mine: I hope we can keep U.S. casualties under the number of good lives we lost to the war in Vietnam.
Meade's number is 58,220. I was there from June 1970 to June 1971, and back there again with my wife from January 28-February 2, 2020.
I'm certainly willing to accept numbers equal to a normal or even bad flu season, because that was always fine before no matter who you are today. No shut down of any type was required, requested, or even considered. How far above that number should we go to kill an economy resulting in it's own deaths and destruction of lives, I'm not sure, but it sure was an awful big step if we end up real close to normal. That's why I asked way back when: "What if it turns out just like a normal flu season?" I think I know the answer. Everyone will claim to have been right. See California:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-pandemic-california-herd-immunity/
Thank you, brylun. LBJ's war was not worth the loss of one single brave American life. So much suffering. So unnecessary.
Has anyone died of this vicious coronavirus without suffering horribly? It sounds to me like it's an unbelievably agonizing death.
Again, we are called upon to destroy the village in order to save it. We have two moral panics going on at the same time. Greta will die and Granny will die. Moralists demand we live in caves and eat rats to prevent both. Let’s recognize that man is not God. Deterministic science can’t parse the consequence of policy and perform the moral calculus some demand. There is more uncertainty in our answer than our moral blinders let us see. What we are experiencing is what used to be known as “ the condition of man.” Yes Europeans came to the Americas, Indians got smallpox, Europe got vd. What should we do? Individuals have morals, the world has interests. Don’t think that the world is not maximizing total good.
There is no right answer on deaths allowed. There is a continuum from packing people in styrofoam and murder in the streets. You can’t treat deaths separately by category, all threats are the same corona death toll is within all deaths not a stand alone item. Pick an answer, zero allowable deaths is not the right answer. The one death is too much crowd are children in the face of an uncaring world.
I have little respect for a man whose only goal is to not die, but I understand him.
"It sounds to me like it's an unbelievably agonizing death."
Does it? It sounds pretty much like death to me, which, in most cases, sucks greatly. So I hear.
"Pick an answer, zero allowable deaths is not the right answer."
And so your answer is not zero. What is it? 58,220? 1,027,000 to 1,700,000 (WWII)?
I will put a number to it- saving 500,000 Americans from COVID-19 would most likely not be worth the economic calamity that we are quickly headed towards. For me, it very simple- we are probably going to end up killing even more people as you save those 500,000 (and this me granting to you that you saved 500,000 for the sake of argument)- you just won't hear those additional deaths breathlessly discussed on the television as they occur over the next five to ten years- they will just be statistical noise.
There is a reason we generally try do cost/benefit analyses on large scale social interventions, even if it appears to be callous and immoral to do so. It isn't really about money-the analysis goes both ways- if you spend $5 trillion in foregone production saving those 500,000- a conservative estimate of the actual costs in the US alone if you continue this lockdown for 3 or more months- that is $5 trillion dollars no longer available to save people from other ailments on the other side of this event. And the price tag is almost surely going to be even higher than $5 trillion dollars at this point because it is all but certain you don't get a quick bounce back, and this is especially true the longer we do this nonsense. You could be looking at a cumulative loss of $20 trillion over the course of the next decade.
The frustrating thing to me is this- we had other options that didn't lock down the entire country- the most vulnerable could have been protected just as easily from a more targeted quarantine/reverse quarantine. It didn't have to be this way, but all the virtue signalling has carried the day apparently, and off the cliff we go.
Little tyrants everywhere live for these moments. In the U.S., they were hall monitors in middle school.
The number of total deaths allowed is the amount that minimizes human suffering. If people have to die from corona to prevent others from dying a little bit every day watching their children have bleak lives, so be it. Resources and effort and sacrifice should be spent efficiently. We are spending 2 trillion inefficiently to fight corona. How many lives could that have saved on some other thing like saving diabetics or heart disease victims? I bet we could have found a better way to save lives. We don’t want to save lives, we want a crusade.
You want a hard answer, if corona deaths become 10 percent of deaths among those who die in hospital, that is too many corona deaths. The great omnipotent God Josephbleau has spoken.
For me, the one hope now is the Steinism- things that can't go on, don't. A shut down of the US economy is one of those things I hope can't go on- in other words, the really bad effects will start to change our behavior before it is too late.
“Expect a Black Lives Matter riot any minute now.”
In all seriousness, one wrong arrest in the wrong community and the lockdown narrative will change with neck-cracking speed. There’s an election to be won and so a whole lot of impending drama about how the KungFlu has had a disparate impact on some Democrat-owned demographics. Maybe I hang out in the wrong places, but I’m surprised we’re not already getting a slew of these stories.
“The number of total deaths allowed is the amount that minimizes human suffering.”
Yes. The “how many lives is it worth?” thing is such an unserious punkass move. There will be some kind of political and societal price for letting the panicked and the privileged play the shame game. Not sure how it will manifest itself but it will come in time.
People are talking as if letting millions die and untold tens of millions get sick, many suffering permanent damage to lungs, hearts, or kidneys, won’t disrupt the economy. But it will. It would likely disrupt the economy worse than the lockdown.
This is just common sense. Sick people aren’t productive, clusters of deaths disrupt.
We have evidence for it too. In the Spanish flu some places had restrictions and some did not. Studies show the places that did fared batter and recovered faster.
So I don’t buy this false dichotomy. And where's your evidence if that's your position.
Ken B said...
People are talking as if letting millions die
Again, what an asshole. He just won't deal with reality.
Ken’s position is always the null hypothesis, you need strong evidence to refute his conjectures.
Ken B said...
People are talking as if letting millions die and untold tens of millions get sick, many suffering permanent damage to lungs, hearts, or kidneys, won’t disrupt the economy. But it will. It would likely disrupt the economy worse than the lockdown.
This is pure bullshit.
Coronavirus would have killed millions in China if it was going to kill millions here. They killed doctors that tried to give warning. They suppressed all information about the virus for months and let it spread unconstrained.
It did not kill millions.
Italy and New York did everything they could possibly have done wrong already and millions of people are not dead. What we are seeing now happened 6 weeks ago and we are stick backlogging.
You are full of shit. You are a bad faith actor. Your cheer leading for tyranny just puts you in the same camp as Nancy Pelosi and the democrat media.
There are discrepancies arent they, what are the real numbers as pointrd out china has been hiding them, only testing those witj symptoms or at leasts thats the story
The course of action does not have to be all or nothing. Business as usual vs shelter in place are not the only options.
Essential businesses already carves out an exception for something like a third of all productive activity.
I would carve out even more exceptions, such that about the only thing that is not allowed are crowd-making activities: concerts, theaters, and such. Everything else would be allowed, but pressured to do all social distancing efforts as are practical for that business.
Having a number of people you're "willing" to let die seems like a wrong way to look at it. Of course we don't ever want anyone to die. It's like war-- you don't want anyone to die but here's this war you need to win.
If we are going to discuss it, ISTM the better discussion is when people (you) are going to be willing to go out and get back to more normal? What would it take to not be the person still too afraid to go to the grocery store, or when would you support your neighbors being able to work?
How realistic do you think your answer is? Does it involve testing everyone almost every day?
I agree with you, Paul J.
Strangely, I am not seeing much in the way of polling results about the popularity of government shutdowns/policies. You would think that would be something that would be reported on bigly. Whether people largely approve of measures taken so far, or whether they do not. Either way, good data on that would be interesting.
This isn't original with me, and if I can remember where I got it, I'll credit it . . .
The way to think of it is not in terms of an absolute number of lives; it's in terms of the risk of losing your own life. If 350,000 Americans die, each American has a 1 in 1,000 chance of dying (on the average; obviously, older and sicker people have worse odds, although some young and healthy people are dying, too).
Would you take a 1 in 1,000 chance of dying to prevent a recession? I believe I would. I might even go as low as 1 in 200.
Ideally, of course the upside would be in terms of your own risk, too -- e.g., a 1 in 1,000 risk of dying to prevent a 1 in 20 risk of losing your job or of your small business going under.
I remember now. It's from Guido Calabrese, by way of the Volokh Report.
Would this be one of those shithole countries?
= Krumhorn
Thankfully the founders included the Second Amendment in our Constitution. No police force in this country would dare to overrun a community like that as they would face significant armed resistance and they know it.
Achilles: "Italy and New York did everything they could possibly have done wrong already and millions of people are not dead. What we are seeing now happened 6 weeks ago and we are stick backlogging."
Iran is doing next to nothing to stop the virus, and they are not losing millions.
India is a nation of 1.3 Billion people with 250 million in extreme poverty and living on top of each other. With another 200 to 300 million at the lower end with very little.
None of them are social distancing. None of them are practicing, on a large scale, extreme sanitation. None of them are using bacterial soaps or other deep cleansing methods. They have very little equipment per capita to handle this.
India: as of today: 1,397 confirmed coronavirus cases and 35 deaths, with approximately 125 having recovered in hospitals.
I mean, shouldn't these numbers under these conditions be exploding?
Some will say that there simply hasn't been enough Chinese presence in India so the transmission into that country has been slower. But that isn't true, as articles like this show:
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/chinese-invasion-of-indian-industry/article26439893.ece
So, what's holding up the pandemic there?
Is India just well behind much of the world in virus penetration? Could be. I don't know.
I just know what conditions exist there and if ever there was a region primed for just this sort of virus, India would be it.
People who live in India have lived their lives among people who regularly defecate on the street, among people who prepare food in an extremely unsanitary way, and most Indians probably did not spend more than 5 days a year, in their childhood, wearing clean clothes.
I am not being unkind, I am just stating a fact - it is a very very poor country, and the parents generally cannot or do not bother to keep the children very clean and a large minority of parents send the children off, at a young age, to work at very unsanitary jobs.
I am not being critical here. My own parents, bless their hearts, were lazy people with many children, and they really only had time to take care of the one or two oldest, and I was closer to the tenth in line than the first in line, and I spent most of my childhood wearing dirty clothes, not knowing that it was wrong to wear dirty clothes all the time, eating lousy food and drinking sour milk all the time, not knowing that there were better alternatives (the look of hatred I would get from my parents when I complained about the swill they fed me is not a look you ever want to see) ---- but now, my immune system is extremely strong. Indians, like me, pose a much greater threat to any innocent little coronavirus that enters our system than vice versa.
Just saying. YMMV.
brylan,
I think that really overstates things.
Yes, of course there's crime in Nairobi; it's a big city. And if you're white and obviously a tourist, you do stand out as a worthwhile target.
But that's not different from plenty of places in the U.S. I wouldn't wander around Nairobi after dark these days, but no more would I do so in e.g. Baltimore.
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