Lone figure on a sports field...
A bird keeps its distance from that solitary human being...
(Photos taken this morning around University Bay, in Madison, Wisconsin.)
March 25, 2020
Spaced out.
A silent city...
Lone figure on a sports field...
A bird keeps its distance from that solitary human being...
(Photos taken this morning around University Bay, in Madison, Wisconsin.)
Lone figure on a sports field...
A bird keeps its distance from that solitary human being...
(Photos taken this morning around University Bay, in Madison, Wisconsin.)
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179 comments:
You almost get the feeling people want this to continue forever.
Hospitals consider universal do-not-resuscitate orders for coronavirus patients
(even against their will)
Just for perspective, a shot of State and Lake would be interesting.
It is still really cold in Britain and Ireland.
Warmer in Germany. Watch their numbers in 20 days.
France and Spain are ahead of Germany but behind Italy.
Weather in Italy sucks but at least it is humid. Not like 20-30 days ago during hug a Chinese day in Florence.
Mark said...
Hospitals consider universal do-not-resuscitate orders for coronavirus patients
(even against their will)
My wife has to file DNR's.
I am going to see if I can ask her about the normal rules for that.
Looks like spring. Life and growth is reasserting. It won't be long now.
Achilles: maybe 'almost' but not the people I'm interacting with (over zoom and with proper distancing).
So generally the nurse or more often a social worker gives a form to the patient and the patient fills out the form for a DNR order and gives it to the doctor.
Otherwise the hospital/staff has to do everything they can to keep the patient alive.
I find it interesting that the WAPO is pushing a discussion among Hospital staffs about changing this system.
WaPo: Hospitals consider universal do-not-resuscitate orders for coronavirus patients
They are no longer viable or profitable, but their carbon can be redistributed or sequestered for social progress.
"Interesting" in a way that causes anger than burns like a 1000 suns.
No one HAS to sign a DNR -- but unethical providers might make people think that they do.
"Just for perspective, a shot of State and Lake would be interesting."
Maybe tomorrow.
For the record, I was able to walk across University Avenue at Farley Avenue without waiting for the light. There was no visible traffic in either direction (at about 10:30 a.m.).
It's pretty surreal.
It's that way too, though, when people get snowed in. Then, even the sound is dead.
Traveling home from New Zealand over the last week was surreal on steroids.
I found out when you fill out a DNR you'd be better not take exception to anything on the form, or you're just making things difficult for Staff...there is only one way to express your wishes.
I was so hoping not to die of thirst. Oh well!
That football field is reminiscent of Giacometti, whom Gopnik referenced yesterday. Sartre wrote about Giacometti's sculptures. William Barrett also wrote about the Swiss sculptor in his books about existentialism. Pandemics empty the streets and public places and give them an eerie, surreal feeling. One could also mention de Chirico's empty public squares.
"Traveling home from New Zealand over the last week was surreal on steroids."
I think you've said that before. We want details! (Apologies if I missed a post.)
Blue skies and sunny right now in the East Bay (across from San Francisco). The sunshine feels great. Lotta Vitamin D.
It is sunny in the upper 70's today in north suburban Tucson.
People are out walking and biking in pairs, no groups. However, this is a very active area under normal circumstances. I suspect that a lot of inactive people are using the pandemic as an excuse to sit in front of the TV and order from Amazon.
Stay away from the grocery stores in the AM. People are still panic buying.
My hands are getting tired of washing and Lysol wipes. We have not been able to find hand sanitizer for two weeks.
you're just making things difficult for Staff...
Because not making things difficult for medical staff is so much more important than your own life.
My daughter just turned 16 (had a virtual surprise party on Zoom). Still has several hours of behind the wheel time before she can get her license. No better time for a kid learning to drive, though it might create unreasonable expectations.
Blogger Sebastian said..."I think you've said that before. We want details!"
It was like a WW2 movie where everybody is trying to flee Paris before the Germans arrive.
We were in Queenstown when the New Zealand government announced they were closing their borders. Realizing that it was only a matter of time before the airlines stopped flying, everybody scrambled to leave the country. Not sure where they got all the planes, but the traffic out the Queenstown airport was relentless. We had to go Christchurch, and rebook our flight, in order to get out.
We got to the Christchurch airport hotel Wednesday night. A few hours in line Thursday got us rebooked to leave Sunday morning. But the route home was through the Sydney airport and that night Australia announced they were closing their border so we were at the airport 3am Friday morning (luggage in hand, just in case) checking that we would still be allowed to "transit" through the Sydney airport. We were assured that we would.
We arrived for check-in at 3am Sunday and they detained us for 45 minutes deciding if they were going to let us board. They ultimately decided no, they wouldn't, because the AU government wasn't letting anyone with a layover greater than 8 hours to enter. "Ah, look at our tickets. Our layover is 5 hours." Fifteen more minutes of squinting at computer screens and talking to Australian immigration and they finally decided that, yes, 5 is less than 8 and we got boarding passes.
And we were first in line! This song and dance happened to pretty much everybody, several at a time in parallel. Ticket agents were running around with a fistful of passports and a cell phone, each trying to personally talk to AU immigration. There was a very long line behind us. The plane left two hours late but many in the line didn't make it. We were told that same flight the day before never took off at all because of this (we had almost booked that flight).
Except for the lines at the ticket counters, the rest of the Christchurch airport was empty. The hotel emptied out. Rental cars and Caravans started piling up in the hotel parking lot as the rental companies ran out of places to put them. Fewer and fewer planes arrived and left. That hotel room with the view of airport operations which seemed like fun when we booked it turned into a huge source of anxiety. Airport monitors filled with cancelled flights. While the Christchurch airport was devoid of planes, planes were parked everywhere in Sydney. The Dallas and Madison airports were as quiet as a morgue. On the plus side, while we had seen news photos of 8 hour lines through customs a few days before, we were the only plane entering Dallas when we arrived.
It was an experience.
AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?
So what time is the proletariat snausage tossing weekday nights?
AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?
Yeah, some moron on this board asked that the other day. JHC. Is the world made up of college freshmen?
At least two trees are in social proximity, and, in fact, are crossing branches, sharing leaves, a veritable pandemic in progress.
AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?
Just imagine... With judicious unplanning, unsharing, unselecting, excess mortality can be reduced by nearly a million human lives annually in American alone. #LifeAid
You turn that question around on the one who asked it. If they reply that one is too many, then you know you are dealing with an idiot, and ignore them the rest of the time.
"AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?"
It's actually a valid question, although the motives are whiny.
US Population: 330 Million
US Deaths/year: 2.8 Million
US Flu deaths last year: 34,000
Were the 34,000 flu deaths last year, acceptable or not?
I sold all the stock I had bought in my retirement account over the last 10 days this afternoon. The snapback was too steep to not book the profit- did so after lunch. I have seen this movie before. Deeper lows are coming- the extent of the economic damage will start to be revealed in a more visceral way tomorrow morning with the initial jobs claims. I think the estimates of 2.5 million are too low.
Ain't nothing that can make Martha look bad.
The President said, "NONE. No number of deaths is acceptable."
Yesterday morning I walked my dog for an hour and a quarter (about 3 miles) along (and back) a path that runs by a college campus. I met 2 bicyclists and 1 walker (and no one passed me from behind). It was early , college students are away (from extended spring break), but I think everyone is taking social distancing seriously (and especially early mornings, when lots of people don't want to get up).
Here's what I'm watching: (1) my own experience that people are taking social distancing very seriously, and my belief that there is a very low probability of catching the virus from brief and unrepeated contact which leads me to believe that the virus spread will turn out to be very low, compared to what we are thinking; (2) the claims by (for example) the Surgeon General that "things are going to get much worse this week."
I understand that it is very hard to get reliable data, and especially to figure out the causes for dynamic changes in the data (are confirmed cases increasing because cases are increasing, or because confirmation is catching up?) So, if the surgeon general is right, I'll expect to see by the weekend, news stories that say "don't go to the emergency room if you can avoid it" "people are dying in hospitals" and I expect to hear reports of contagion from my friends, family, and neighbors. So far, it's all a horrible contagion that hasn't affected me personally.
Well, that answer is also ridiculous, but I understand why he didn't take the bait. Smart- that is why I am not a politician- I would be terrible at it.
How many deaths are acceptable to get rid of Trump?
Where are all the masks??? We should have had more masks!!!
The mystery of the protective mask shortage is solved.
Apple had stockpiled over 9 million masks. They have since given them to the cause.
How many did other companies stockpile/hoard?
"Bay Area Guy said...
"AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?"
It's actually a valid question, although the motives are whiny.
US Population: 330 Million
US Deaths/year: 2.8 Million
US Flu deaths last year: 34,000
Were the 34,000 flu deaths last year, acceptable or not?"
Yes, and so are the outlier numbers in years that are greater. We don't go through these decisions year after year. They are accepted as they are just a part of life for the collective good. As they should be.
"tcrosse said...
How many deaths are acceptable to get rid of Trump?"
For too many in this country, as many as it takes.
For various sports and work related reasons there were several times when I found myself on campus in college (50 years ago) when the rest of the students were gone. The normal warmth and vitality of a bustling college campus were gone. Bleak, cold weather only added to the dispiriting gloom.
I'm sure the mood of the few people on the empty campus in Madison will be morbid as we start a stretch of dark, wet weather.
h, I think it likely that you will see outbreaks like New York's in places with heavy mass transit use, but I do think New York won't be surpassed by any location in the US- definitely not L.A. or even Chicago. I think R0 in the U.S. has been below 1 for at least the last 2 weeks- I observed the same thing you did- people taking social distancing seriously, and I live in county in Tennessee with exactly 1 confirmed case as of yesterday (the last time I looked).
However, I am also of the opinion that the virus was and is much more widespread than is generally believed. I also think the that a large part of the human population has a much higher resistance to the virus than is generally believed- there is a reason most new flu viruses don't infect even 1/3 of the population- your body has a variety of IgG antibodies to similar strains of the influenza, and the same is going to be the case for coronaviruses- though not specific, the collective whole of them provide some moderate level of resistance to new mutated strains- at least enough to buy your body time to develop specific antibodies.
"For various sports and work related reasons there were several times when I found myself on campus in college (50 years ago) when the rest of the students were gone. The normal warmth and vitality of a bustling college campus were gone. Bleak, cold weather only added to the dispiriting gloom."
I love campus when the students are gone.
my own experience that people are taking social distancing very seriously, and my belief that there is a very low probability of catching the virus from brief and unrepeated contact which leads me to believe that the virus spread will turn out to be very low
Yeah, but it only takes a handful of idiots and knuckleheads to ruin it for everyone.
You know that. That's why we can't have nice things.
99 percent of perfect people will lose to the one percent of maroons every time.
AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?"
It's actually a valid question, although the motives are whiny.
In context, no it's not. Put aside the gotcha aspect, bring out the calculators and run the numbers without emotion. Human life in aggregate is cheap. Individually it's priceless. Your either a heartless bastard or an unrealistic moron. BTW, have you stopped beating your wife?
AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?"
It's actually a valid question, although the motives are whiny.
In context, no it's not. Put aside the gotcha aspect, bring out the calculators and run the numbers without emotion. Human life in aggregate is cheap. Individually it's priceless. Your either a heartless bastard or an unrealistic moron. BTW, have you stopped beating your wife?
With my gym closed until April 6th, I have started taking really long walks aroung the neighborhoods on the north side of Oak Ridge. Did a 4 mile walk on Monday, then 5 mile walks yesterday and today. It just reminds of how actual walking on a sidewalk (same for running, though I stopped doing that 7 years ago) uses you muscles more completely than doing it on a treadmill. Especially hard is the going downhill- the shins are much more involved in the downhill, and are pleasantly sore right now. I may just keep doing this when the gym does reopen, though probably not 5 miles. It was a beautiful day here in Oak Ridge- mid 60s, bright blue sky. I got more sunlight today than I have gotten in the last 2 months total. It felt great.
AH reporter: How many deaths are acceptable?"
It's actually a valid question
It's actually an AH question.
Big Mike: Were people wearing masks on the plane?
Alright, alright, yeah, I'm sure it's a shitty reporter asking a shitty gotcha question.
I surrender the point!
So, putting that little tete a tete aside, permit me to gently ask the following neutral, similar question?
How did the US react to the 34,000 flu deaths last winter, and was it the proper reaction?
I suspect the answer was, "Do nothing, get a flu shot". They certainly didn't lock down the country. I believe that was probably the right call to make.
Yes, I know "SARS-CoV-2" is not the flu virus. I'm saying by any scientific or medical or public health standpoint, it is much less dangerous than the seasonal flu.
mockturtle: Is that question directed at me?
Btw, Joe Biden is now claiming he became a university professor after leaving the Senate....when he actually became the Vice President.
How much longer can this "Weekend At Bernie's" farce continue?
Looks like the word has gone out to the lefty minions to finally take Slow Joe out: a former Biden aide claims he sexually assaulted her...in a "penetrative" way.
Talk about failing to maintain Social Distance.....
Blogger Yancey Ward said...
"I think it likely that you will see outbreaks like New York's in places with heavy mass transit use, but I do think New York won't be surpassed by any location in the US- definitely not L.A. or even Chicago. I think R0 in the U.S. has been below 1 for at least the last 2 weeks- I observed the same thing you did- people taking social distancing seriously, and I live in county in Tennessee with exactly 1 confirmed case as of yesterday (the last time I looked)."
I'm guessing that experiencing COVID-19 in an urban area is quite different than experiencing COVID-19 in a rural area. I'm the only person who touches the steering wheel in my pickup truck. In New York many thousands of people touch the handrails going down the steps to the subway.
I walked 3 miles today in our little town (population 600) and met 1 other walker. We exchanged greetings and gave each other ample room to pass. In New York there is no escape.
Social distancing and sheltering in place will likely be much more effective in rural America, assuming rural people take it seriously. (I am master of the obvious...)
so, this is fun:
Time’s Up Said It Could Not Fund a #MeToo Allegation Against Joe Biden, Citing Its Nonprofit Status and His Presidential Run
i guess it IS true; if you're running for President (or, plan to run for President a few decades later), you can push a woman,"up against the wall” and put your “hands were on (her) and underneath (her) clothes” And THEN! reach "down (her) skirt but then up inside it and penetrate (her) with his fingers,”
And Then! you can be kissing her and saying multiple things to her like,
‘Do you want to go somewhere else,'” and ‘Come on man, I heard you liked me.’
It's Good To Be The King... Failing That; It's Good to be a Biden!
"How much longer can this "Weekend At Bernie's" farce continue?"
As long as the formaldhyde smell can be masked.
Even if true, he surely doesn't remember it now.
More food for thought:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/25/inaccurate-virus-models-are-panicking-officials-into-ill-advised-lockdowns/
So hunters just a chip off the old block
Something i pointed about the models this morning, just another prog contribution in kind.
similar to my early surmise
Kenny Rogers had one of the worst face lifts I've ever seen.
What. Too soon?
Yeah, I saw him in some sort of interview a couple of years ago, and I literally didn't recognize him. As far as I can tell, Willie Nelson hasn't had a face lift.
I'm cynical about politics. To keep a smile on my face, I look at the last five years as The Trump Show, which I voted for. Way better than West Wing.
Season One [2015-16] was the election. The season finale in November was awesome.
Season Two started out on a high note. There was lots of problems getting the White House together. You had, at least as we first knew, the rise of the Resistance. Of course, as President, Trump started doing a lot of exciting things in foreign policy. The Mueller farce started.
Season Three really started bogging down with more Mueller, more Russia-Russia. More foreign interest excitement like tariffs and deregulation, judges, Iran, Korea, but kind of boring except for Rocket Man. The season finale was the Democrats taking over the House, not very exciting but sort of promising more going forward.
Season Four completely sucked. There were more judges confirmed, more tariffs, more fucking with deadbeat NATO, but let's face it, a big yawn.
Mid-season the whole Mueller shtick fell apart in a another real yawner. The impeachment thing was kind of interesting except the denouement was known. The Democrat debates offered a lot of comedy but that was pretty weak, too. The season finale was Would Trump Actually Be Impeached or What? AYFKM?
But, The Trump Show can't be cancelled yet and Season Five is fucking lit. I can't wait for the season finale. And I smile.
Automatic_Wing: "Even if true, he surely doesn't remember it now."
The perfect alibi.
Pitch meeting: In Season Five we're going to introduce a plague. Get out of here!
Here's the list of states that have precisely 1 death from the Coronavirus - some even have ZERO deaths.
Utah
Minnesota
Iowa
New Hampshire
New Mexico
Hawaii
Alabama
South Dakota
Maine
Delaware
Idaho
Nebraska
Montana
North Dakota
Alaska
Wyoming
West Virginia
Source: Worldometers
As a first step, I would immediately open up these states for normal business, with the standard provisos: (elderly or sick stay home; use extra personal hygiene, etc, etc)
In those areas, the "curve is flat."
Anyone profoundly disagree with that approach?
inaccurate-virus-models-are-panicking-officials-into-ill-advised-lockdowns
That's what the Oxford epidemiologist suggested. The observations do not match the predictions (e.g. exponential progression, not merely infection), so the models are either wrong, or the known (e.g. infection rate, causes of death) or given (e.g. origin, transmission) data is wrong. Given the anomalies with first reports from China, there is reason to believe that the latter is a past, present, and in progress problem, further exacerbated by a social contagion spread by the media, press, and social platforms, and Democrat politicians.
You love by gas creatures.
You die by gas creatures.
Pretty boy guest starring.
Uh oh. He's wearing a red shirt!
As a first step, I would immediately open up these states for normal business, with the standard provisos: (elderly or sick stay home; use extra personal hygiene, etc, etc) . . .
. . . Shoot any New Yorkers on sight.
Stay away from the grocery stores in the AM. People are still panic buying.
I went to Safeway at Ina and Oracle about 1PM today That's the Safeway where Gabby Gifford and bunch of others got shot by a schizophrenic kid. Anyway, the store was pretty well cleaned out. The produce section was almost empty. I did get some of what I wanted.
John scalzi satirized the red ahirts with a little dune thrown in.
Don't remember the title, but isn't that the episode where Kirk encountered the killer gas cloud as an ensign. The creature sucks out the hemoglobin, if I remember correctly.
Anyway, the store was pretty well cleaned out.
We are better off though, MK, if all those grocery workers and truck drivers and food factory workers and lumberjacks cutting down trees to make toilet paper, we are all better off if all of these people stay home long past Easter -- several months, in fact.
COVID-19: A New Hope (w/Dr. Zubin Damania)
Some medical advice about observables, forecasts, and best practices. Disclosure: he's progressive, Pro-Choice.
Claudine Longet has a guest shot on Hogan's Heroes tonight.
Oh, and by the way --
That Shatner episode DID end happily. Yes, he was momentarily carted off to the loony bin, but the damage to the airplane was visible. And they would eventually see that there was a creature out there and he was right to grab the gun and shoot it. In the end, he was a hero.
I will do the shopping tomorrow morning. Last Thursday was pretty normal, but no TP.
Yeah, I wanted to just guess the title based on Kirk's reaction.
But I did look it up after I commented.
I couldn't quite remember whether it was hemoglobin or salt the gas cloud was sucking out, but then I remembered the bait used to lure it.
Now that was the other episode.
Man Trap.
Alright. Off to watch another episode of "Touch of Frost".
the cleared the tests
I'm not sure when it's on the schedule, what season, but the crew lands on a planet and encounters a gas creature.
The creature loves . . . and kills. He, yes the creature is a he, claims to be the best with what he loves, but Yancy's brother bests him. In retaliation, the creature kills a red shirt!
After the creature also kills . . . in his acting . . . the crew are able to escape. During their ordeal, they discover the gas creature is actually a bratty little boy.
The crew report what happened to them. But it takes a long time because, in telling the story, they have to get in the Pike chair and use only beeps to communicate.
Welshie!!!
What does it say about your political party when a dumb chum like AOC has the best political instincts in the group? Incredible.
Oh yeah, and Kirk ends up with his shirt off and making out with some chick.
Some of the crazier episodes was the one with the witch, and robert lansing and his companion familiar
Fan: Um, uh, sign it to Melllvar. "Melllvar" has three Ls.
George Takei: I think I've done enough conventions to know how to spell "Melllvar."
wholelottasplainin' said...
More food for thought:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/25/inaccurate-virus-models-are-panicking-officials-into-ill-advised-lockdowns/
thank you for posting this. I noticed yesterday that the "doomsday" model was showing up on my NextdoorNeighbor and FB. Tried to find out more about the group (CovidActNow) because I figure anything with the word "act" in it's name is probably some sort of prog activist organization with a political agenda. The Federalist article provides the proof - several dem/prog activists.
And their modeling criteria? I had to dig DEEP into the web site to locate those, but for a couple, the came right out and said "guess". A few others were "estimates".
But then. . . . most of us knew that this would be politicized.
"a bratty little boy."
That was the show with Clint Howard (Ron's brother). . . let me look it up. . . "The Corbomite Maneuver".
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...
What does it say about your political party when a dumb chum like AOC has the best political instincts in the group?
One way of thinking about this is that AOC is not actually a dumb chum. She has run rings around quite a few politicians of all stripes. She makes mistakes every now and then but I can't recall such a young politician have such influence so quickly without a famous family or something similar.
That was trelayne as no 1 fan.
ARM: "She has run rings around quite a few politicians of all stripes."
If by "all stripes" you mean democrats only, then you are correct.
That was trelayne as no 1 fan.
So was Mellvar (three Ls) his first name or last?
Remember in early January when the completely corrupted and totally ChiCom-owned head of the WHO told the world Chinese Communist Bat/Pangolin Soup Flu could not be transmitted human to human?
Good times, good times.
I want to be careful in making this criticism. I don't think it's a Chinese thing but rather a Hollywood thing. A group of Chinese American actors have spoken out about Trump calling the virus "the Chinese virus". They claim it will lead to acts of racism and xenophobia.....I haven't done any research on the actors, but I wonder if any of them in the past have spoken out about the Chicom crackdown on Hong Kong or spoken in favor of Taiwan's right to exist. Have they spoken out against China's initial handling of the virus or about the attempt of a Chinese government spokesman to blame the whole thing on the US Army?.......This reminds me of all those business partners of Harvey Weinstein who were so upset about Trump's tape.
Fry: All this time we thought he was a powerful superbeing! Yet he was just a child...
Melllvar's Mom: He's not a child, he's thirty-four!
Theo should just shut it for a while.
Bahrain reports they are having success, like many other western sources, with the combination of HydroxyChloroquine and Azithromax.
Many anecdotal tales from multiple western sources.
However, just today the morons at Bloomberg, who just so happen to be in thrall to the ChiComs, published a commie "study" that says otherwise.
Guess who was pushing this ChiCom hoax at Althouse?
Yancey Ward said: "New York won't be surpassed by any location in the US- definitely not L.A. or even Chicago."
That was true with just about every previous pandemic as well: the 1968 flu pandemic, the 1957-58 flu pandemic, the polio scares of the 1940s and early 1950s, the syphilis epidemic of the 19th century, etc. It's due to New York City's unusally high population density, of course.
The syphilis epidemics of the 19th century illustrate the limits of trying to contain an infectious disease by behavior modifications (and social distancing is a behavior modification).
You might expect that syphilis would be much easier to contain than flu or coronavirus. Syphilis is not spread by droplet infection (sneezes/coughs). A few simple lifestyle modifications--avoid prostitutes and one-night pickups, practice safe sex--would have greatly reduced its incidence.
Everybody knew that, including doctors, the Church, etc.
Yet syphilis remained at epidemic levels until the discovery of effective antibiotics--because people just wouldn't change their behavior.
It came from a chinese govt tesearch faciliity, or in proximity to same.
Fry: Look at Walter Koenig. After Star Trek, he became an actor.
Walter Koenig: Not just an actor, but a well-rounded person. With my own friends and credit cards and keys.
William: "They claim it will lead to acts of racism and xenophobia.....I haven't done any research on the actors, but I wonder if any of them in the past have spoken out about the Chicom crackdown on Hong Kong or spoken in favor of Taiwan's right to exist."
Not. A. Chance.
China tells hollywood precisely what to do.
My nephew, currently stationed at Patrick Air Force Base, was due to be deployed to Saudi Arabia this weekend (a deployment now on hold). We had a small gathering, just my immediate family and him, last Sunday for a dinner and a send off. My family has always been a boisterous, argumentative bunch unafraid to make our opinions known. I jokingly pointed at that in the span of about 15 minutes, we had managed to touch on sex, religion, and politics. The three famously forbidden topics (though admittedly more forbidden among lesser known groupings than immediate family).
We got to musing about why these three topics have so universally been regarded as inadvisable dinner table conversations. They are "sensitive" subjects, and you run the risk of "offending" someone. But how exactly do you offend someone in such conversation? By having a different opinion than them? Why should that be a cause of offense?
My take is that these three are all topics that people tend to be indoctrinated into through social and cultural milieu and thus people are least likely to explain why they believe what they do. And for most people, this is expressed as anger or frustration.
Thoughts?
Thats arguable considering some of koenigs work, zapp branigan is like kirk on steroids.
Hopefully opinions on AOC will soon be moot. Primaried, not plague.
During this 15-day interval I've been to the store only once and have decided not to go again for the duration. I think I can make do [and make doo-doo!] with what I have on hand.
So, if they were to go at it monster-a-monster -- with Trek fight music in the background -- who would prevail? Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8, or Morbo, the news monster?
During this 15-day interval I've been to the store only once and have decided not to go again for the duration. I think I can make do [and make doo-doo!] with what I have on hand.
I never realized how introverted and cut off from general social contact I was until I realized that "social distancing" has had little impact on my day-to-day life (excepting the effect on business). I've made use of a grocery delivery service for almost two years now. And take out is delivered via Uber Eats, Doordash, Grubhub, etc. I pay at the pump, and I can't recall the last time I've seen the inside of a bank.
But how exactly do you offend someone in such conversation? By having a different opinion than them? Why should that be a cause of offense?
I wonder that, too, Farmer, and yet I know that it does. Many people can't deal with having their opinions challenged and take the challenge as a personal attack.
went for armadillo safari tonight- no armadillo. 1 bunny 1 gator swimming and 4-5 deer though...
I wonder that, too, Farmer, and yet I know that it does. Many people can't deal with having their opinions challenged and take the challenge as a personal attack.
I think part of it is that they can't actually explain why they hold the opinion they do, since it is commonly been given to them by their families, communities, social milieu, etc.
I prefer to take the Stephen Fry approach: "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
I can think of fewer more meaningless phrases than, "I'm offended."
Lrrs kind of a softy under his scales, the blog however.
I think you are on to something Farmer. My thoughts on this are that these topics for most people are settled in their mind and their position is committed, and passionately so. Most are not of an open mind, they are unwilling to legitimately consider a different point of view. So the only thing to be accomplished by discussing them is disagreement and the giving of offense.
Just a thought.
"During this 15-day interval I've been to the store only once and have decided not to go again for the duration."
I just crossed into the risk group, and so am allowed into the stores' segregated first hour. I get first crack at day-old deli meals, so I'm going every day.
So how many people here are growing playoff beards?
Stevew, I agreed with Farmer but I am not 'open-minded'. I do however have enough confidence in my own ideas that I don't feel threatened by opposing views.
A few simple lifestyle modifications--avoid prostitutes and one-night pickups, practice safe sex--would have greatly reduced its incidence.
I assume you don't know much about human nature. Years ago, when I was a medical student, I read a journal article on contact tracing in a syphilis case. It was hilarious. It was New York City and an orthodox Jewish family, as I recall. They had sexual contacts all through the family, male to male, male to female, female to female. It was all on a chart.
@sinz52,
Yet syphilis remained at epidemic levels until the discovery of effective antibiotics--because people just wouldn't change their behavior.
Yeah, but remember, sinzey ol' bud, yer talkin' about fuckin' here. For lots of folks, and waaaaaaaaaay too many men especially, fucking ranks right up there after breathing & eating.
After a long dry spell, it probably tops even breathing & eating.
Talk about yer germs having us by the balls!
@stevew:
My thoughts on this are that these topics for most people are settled in their mind and their position is committed, and passionately so. Most are not of an open mind, they are unwilling to legitimately consider a different point of view. So the only thing to be accomplished by discussing them is disagreement and the giving of offense.
I think this is basically true, as well. But I also think it tends to misunderstand the point of debate or rigorous conversation. The goal should never be to try to change someone's mind or convince them that they are wrong. The goal should be to vigorously explain why you believe what you do. I always say that debate should be for your own edification, nobody else's. Sort of like the old adage, "if you want to master something, teach it."
Many people can't deal with having their opinions challenged and take the challenge as a personal attack.
well,
Many people make a personal attack, and pass it of as just having their opinions
i routinely get to listen to my family tell me that;
"Anyone that voted for < fill in the blank > is a stupid dumbshit, that should be euthanized!"
then, when i mention that i voted for that person; they say, yeah, we figured you did.
If i mention that that is kinda mean, i hear: "Well, That's MY Opinion!"
And now for something completely different . . .
The Larch.
Meanwhile, Teal'c gets into a fight with Wayne Brady.
And it's not the bad-ass Wayne Brady from Chappelle's Show.
So it ends badly for Wayne Brady.
Mockturtle: me neither, on the important subjects I've usually arrived at my point of view carefully and thoughtfully. I am not offended by a different perspective, generally am interested to understand it, determine if it is well thought out of not.
"They are "sensitive" subjects, and you run the risk of "offending" someone. But how exactly do you offend someone in such conversation? By having a different opinion than them? Why should that be a cause of offense?"
Because they have the emotional continence of 3 year-olds? In adulthood I've been surprised that the ability to vigorously debate without real heat is a rare social skill. I have it, possibly because my life has taken me through a lot of different social milieus. My most valued friends have it. Sadly, my otherwise very close siblings lack it, regardless of where they fall ideologically. Which is odd, because our parents were the most temperate of people.
I threw the baseball around on the street with my son for 30 mins. Very pleasant, although he throws damn hard like a lefty Randy Johnson. I then played volleyball with my daughter, but I am way too slow.
In an hour, two of my neighbors, an Army Colonel and a retired Cop, are gonna drink G&Ts with me on the deck. 6 feet apart, of course. Maybe I'll put on some music.
Hey, things turn out the best for those who make the best of the way things turn out!
@BAG
Thanks for the good faith comment. If you had asked me that 1 month ago I would have fallen on the it's a total overreaction side. The facts I've seen since lend to my keeping the same opinion to a lesser degree, although I see a lot of unanswered questions and unknown variables that we all know about. Here's the underlying problem I think. We no longer have any faith in our institutions. And for good reasons.
For now I am on the side of costly caution since our institutions have already chosen that path and I still have some belief in them. Ask me again in three weeks.
"What does it say about your political party when a dumb chum like AOC has the best political instincts in the group? Incredible."
It says anyone declaiming within a "question" that "a dumb chum like AOC has the best political instincts" is a bullshitter who has no clue what political parties are designed to do. It also calls into question the entire concept of a "political party" which is potentially a good thing.
Potentially it's not good for a country such as America to have more than two major political parties.
rehajm: "Hopefully opinions on AOC will soon be moot. Primaried, not plague."
Lots of talk about the dems redistricting her right out of her seat.
@sinz52:
Yet syphilis remained at epidemic levels until the discovery of effective antibiotics--because people just wouldn't change their behavior.
Controlling sexual behavior has proven a very difficult task for civilization. Like hunger, it is an extremely primitive force that is much older than human beings. Camille Paglia's long essay in Vamps & Tramps, "No Law in the Arena: A Pagan Theory of Sexuality," makes some interesting points in this regard, unfortunately buried under an avalanche of "sex-positive" nonsense. Her description of sex workers is absurd and could only be made by someone who has practically zero insight into the profession. She depicts them as basically heroic sexual renegades, reveling in their power over men, instead of the booze- and coke-addled damaged goods that actually litter the profession.
Wayne brady chooses interesting characters recently he played a gambling addicted doc on a soap.
So true Farmer. One of my sisters and I disagree on lots of topics, but we really enjoy discussing them. I learn a lot about why I believe what I do from discussing and defending my position to her. Sometimes even figure out through the process that my reasoning is weak or ill-founded. It's a learning process, and fun besides.
My thoughts on this are that these topics for most people are settled in their mind and their position is committed, and passionately so. Most are not of an open mind, they are unwilling to legitimately consider a different point of view. So the only thing to be accomplished by discussing them is disagreement and the giving of offense.
Sometimes, people whose very reason for employment involves, one would think, the ability to reason without rancor, fail miserably at the job.
But, then again, Popper made quite a few enemies along the way.
Original Mike asks: mockturtle: Is that question directed at me?
Yes, sorry, got my Mikes mixed up. ;-)
@The Cracker Emcee Refulgent:
Because they have the emotional continence of 3 year-olds? In adulthood I've been surprised that the ability to vigorously debate without real heat is a rare social skill. I have it, possibly because my life has taken me through a lot of different social milieus. My most valued friends have it. Sadly, my otherwise very close siblings lack it, regardless of where they fall ideologically. Which is odd, because our parents were the most temperate of people.
I, too, am surprised at people's inability to debate topics they believe in. One think I've always been grateful for with my parents is that they encouraged a lot of inquiry and us arriving at our own conclusions. They were more about teaching us how to get information than telling us what to believe. For example, even though I came to understand that my parents were agnostic, they raised us as "cultural Christians," but never pushed any particular religious dogma on us.
Thanks, Original Mike.
Curious George said...
"Yes, and so are the outlier numbers in years that are greater. We don't go through these decisions year after year. They are accepted as they are just a part of life for the collective good. As they should be."
Hey, George, tell me something. What is your fucking problem?
J. Farmer said...
touch on sex, religion, and politics.
I will never discuss religion with anyone other than immediate family. People are considerably more touchy about religion than the other two.
“In an hour, two of my neighbors, an Army Colonel and a retired Cop, are gonna drink G&Ts with me on the deck. 6 feet apart, of course. Maybe I'll put on some music.”
What are you worried about, it’s no worse than the flu, right?
By the way, apropos of nothing: since the Olympics have been postponed and all of professional and college sports shut down, how many athletes have come down with serious symptoms, and how many have died, worldwide?
I haven't heard of a single one. You?
Contra Farmer, I am very willing to change my mind on the notion that Wuhan represents little risk to healthy young people. But then, it's a strictly empirical matter.
But IF the answer to my questions is: approximately zero, then the total sports shutdowns are another overreaction.
"So how many people here are growing playoff beards?"
No, but I cut my own hair today.
At least for religion and politics, I think there has to be a willingness to converse for a long time to reach understanding. I'm 60, it's probably been half my life since I had such a talk with someone who fundamentally disagrees with me.
“Hey, George, tell me something. What is your fucking problem?”
Ha, I’ve been wondering that for years.
J. Farmer said...
My take is that these three are all topics that people tend to be indoctrinated into through social and cultural milieu and thus people are least likely to explain why they believe what they do. And for most people, this is expressed as anger or frustration.
Thoughts?
Most people don't reach their beliefs through critical thinking or trial and error.
They mostly do what everyone else around them does.
People in a group that step outside the generally held views are attacked in a variety of ways and those views that are supported are reinforced.
"One way of thinking about this is that AOC is not actually a dumb chum. She has run rings around quite a few politicians of all stripes. She makes mistakes every now and then but I can't recall such a young politician have such influence so quickly without a famous family or something similar."
Agree, with the understanding famous families or some entity with a lot of money designed an ignoramus blessed with a Boston University degree in economics gained through bullshit repetition of bullshit, whom was smart enough with her itty bitty titular development of ring-running, hoodwinked a bunch of people who exist only on their continual (grift) hoodwinking of American decency.
If truth and decency make a come-back, Democratics are out of power for 3 generations. We're all too old to think truth and/or decency in Washington D.C. isn't something Donald Trump can bring. Only Jesus. Perhaps, though we can't know, through a flawed Orange Man Bad.
At least for religion and politics, I think there has to be a willingness to converse for a long time to reach understanding. I'm 60, it's probably been half my life since I had such a talk with someone who fundamentally disagrees with me.
One rule I have for myself is to strongly avoid debate unless I feel confident that I can argue the opposite case, too. I think this is a result of my training as a diagnostician. My mentor used to always tell me that the first thing you should ever do with any diagnosis is try to talk yourself out of it.
@Achilles:
Most people don't reach their beliefs through critical thinking or trial and error.
They mostly do what everyone else around them does.
People in a group that step outside the generally held views are attacked in a variety of ways and those views that are supported are reinforced.
Yes, I think this is basically true. The example I gave over dinner last week was sports, ironically since I have little to no interest in the subject. But I grew up in a sports-loving family, where debate and argument about sports was commonplace. Even though the topic could get heated (ridiculously so in my opinion), people could at least make an argument. Explain why they believed what they believe. This is much less easy with the three topics were are cautioned against discussing.
"Anyone that voted for < fill in the blank > is a stupid dumbshit, that should be euthanized!"
Yes, gilbert, people do say things like that but does it really offend you? When my mother was in her late 80's, she became somewhat bombastic in her opinions and, while my sister found her hyperbole offensive, I found it amusing. But many people take strong emotional ownership of their convictions.
A group of friends and us are doing a cocktail hour via zoom tomorrow. Not because we are worried about being togeher, because that is how we are expected (required) to do this sort of thing these days.
I used to love long, tenacious debates. Now I'm only interested until both sides have been explored within the conversation. When I am about to repeat myself or the other person is repeating himself, I lose interest.
And unlike at younger ages, I often don't bother at all. You can only replay the same conversation with interest so many times. If there's not a new thought, someone has to come up with some new turn of phrase to express an old one.
One rule I have for myself is to strongly avoid debate unless I feel confident that I can argue the opposite case, too.
Farmer, did you debate in high school? I remember having to debate the position of school racial segregation, a position I strongly opposed. But I won the debate. Not because I appealed to racism but because I appealed to the dignity of black educational institutions.
I know nothing about pandemics and their management. I'm not all that good about judging things I know a little about. I'm willing to let the experts have a go at this and follow their advice. They're probably wrong about a few things, but what are your options?....What bothers me is the constant denunciation of Trump's character, actions, and motivations. He wants to open the country because that's what his rich friends want and he wants to make money off his hotels. The Elders of Zion, the operatives of Fu Manchu, the Supreme Council of the Klu Klux Klan are nothing compared to the endless dirty deeds of Trump and his supporters. Trump is probably wrong about a few things too, but he's not some evil, diabolic presence.
"Yes, sorry, got my Mikes mixed up. ;-)"
I'm a bit chagrined to be confused with Big Mike.
Except for Asians, there wasn't a lot of mask wearing.
I avoid debate with people who don't enjoy it. Too many of them cry.
But arguing for argument's sake doesn't interest me now.
"Most people don't reach their beliefs through critical thinking or trial and error."
A page of history is worth volumes of logic - Oliver Wendell Holmes
Personally, I like both + trial & error. Gotta learn from the errors, though.
Someone once cried because I said that chimpanzees were not kinder than human beings and only held back from more murder and destruction by lower intelligence. Why would that make someone cry?!
Another person cried because I said I thought teacher's unions had too much power. I hadn't even intended it as a controversial statement.
@mockturtle:
Farmer, did you debate in high school? I remember having to debate the position of school racial segregation, a position I strongly opposed. But I won the debate. Not because I appealed to racism but because I appealed to the dignity of black educational institutions.
Not formally, but I want to a somewhat "experimental" STEM high school where debate and free-ranging arguments were encouraged. I actually loved my high school experience. It was a selective school, so there was a baseline of ability among the students. We had grown up on 90s postmodernism, were all fans of South Park, and were thoroughly un-PC. Most of the students had fairly conservative, or more accurately libertarian, points of view, though there were a few people (all friends) who would likely be described as SJW's today. It was a wonderfully creative environment to be in, much more so than either my undergraduate or graduate educations.
wow, Original Mike. That is a lot to go through!
(I love it when the US Immigration officer says, "welcome home")
But arguing for argument's sake doesn't interest me now.
If it helps you to verbalize why you believe what you believe, then it is never for it's own sake.
J. Farmer said...
Yes, I think this is basically true. The example I gave over dinner last week was sports, ironically since I have little to no interest in the subject. But I grew up in a sports-loving family, where debate and argument about sports was commonplace. Even though the topic could get heated (ridiculously so in my opinion), people could at least make an argument. Explain why they believed what they believe. This is much less easy with the three topics were are cautioned against discussing.
The issue with religion in particular is there is no "right" answer. Nobody really knows.
Politics is purely tribal. It always has been. The best thing for me about Trump is the Republican "tribe" matches my beliefs probably 60 percent of the time now. During the Bush/McCain/Romney years the tribal political choice was a shit sandwich and typhoid. Sucked.
I don't know why people would discuss sports.
People in general absolutely detest admitting they don't know something. For example they don't ask questions in class because it makes them look like they don't know things.
The discussions about COVID-19 and the response in these threads just bear these things out.
"Are you helping?" is a perfect example of how the herd attacks those that think differently.
The stupid math references are another.
“Here's the list of states that have precisely 1 death from the Coronavirus - some even have ZERO deaths.”
Was there ever a time that list had 50 states on it?
I grew up in a family of passionately opinionated people, but most of them were and are as ignorant as they can make themselves--even the few who aren't stone stupid. I long ago decided just to nod along and make judicious non-committal noises when informed of other people's views . . . most people aren't worth arguing with about anything.
I'm free enough with my opinions when I'm among honest and reasonable people, I don't seek the last word, and I don't relish argument as a pastime.
Narr
If I did, maybe ida been a lawyer
Freeman Hunt said...
Someone once cried because I said that chimpanzees were not kinder than human beings and only held back from more murder and destruction by lower intelligence. Why would that make someone cry?!
Another person cried because I said I thought teacher's unions had too much power. I hadn't even intended it as a controversial statement.
Affirmative action is the definition of racism.
Atheism is the epitome of a religion.
Peace has killed more people than War.
Curves is an explicitly sexist business model.
Women are treated far better in our society by every statistical measure than men are treated.
Yes, the point is that some people will cry about totally innocuous things. You don't even have to get controversial.
@MayBee - It was pretty stressful. I had a lot of time to imagine how we were going to live in NZ for 4 months. Problem is, it's not a normal country right now either.
We didn't get the regular "welcome home" this time. The customs officer looked pretty tired.
Farmer- glad to see you made it back safely from your drive with your dad.
Original Mike-
I bet.
I remember leaving Hong Kong during SARS when there were rumors they would close the airports, they had closed the schools, and they were starting quarantines. We had to leave our dog with a friend's nanny, and that feeling of not knowing when we would see him again, or if we would ever live there again. Then when we got back to the US, everyone was afraid of us. Not exactly what you went through, but that feeling of fleeing and almost not being able to.
Freeman Hunt said...
Yes, the point is that some people will cry about totally innocuous things. You don't even have to get controversial.
Yes.
And this happens when you state things that are objectively true but cross the tribal/herd belief. This is when you get the most emotional reaction.
Want to see someone cry? Find someone who "fosters" orphaned wildlife. Raccoon, squirrel, opossum, bird babies for example. Ask them why they do it. Offer the argument that humans and wild animals would respectively be healthier species if we would maintain a safe long social distance from one another. Yes, that means some orphaned woodland babies will die. Alone. Motherless. Out in the cold dark brutal natural world.
Now you made the rescuer cry. You big inhumane meanie.
"We had to leave our dog with a friend's nanny, and that feeling of not knowing when we would see him again,"
It's not a family member, but getting my telescope shipped home before we left was a scramble. Still not confident I'm going to get it back any time soon. They claim cargo is still moving, but we'll see.
The DNR shouldn’t have the power of life and death, at least not over humans.
It's not a family member, but getting my telescope shipped home before we left was a scramble. Still not confident I'm going to get it back any time soon. They claim cargo is still moving, but we'll see.
Ug, I'll bet. It will be in the back of your mind until it comes. Please let us all know when you get it.
Will do.
"She has run rings around quite a few politicians of all stripes."
Elephants Palin rememenber and understand who/how it works.
Very small few bad people enable/profit from these crisis.
Those who profit profit with hate. Stated.
They were smart enough to play the game evil demands.
Americans, are quite different.
Offer the argument that humans and wild animals would respectively be healthier species if we would maintain a safe long social distance from one another.
Exactly, Meade. I try every so often to argue this position against my wildlife-feeding sister [deer live in their yard for good reason]. Even feeding the birds is bad for their long-term survival [and I admit I used to do this]. Ducks: OK, a female duck will often have 10-12 offspring and watching them paddle by each day with fewer and fewer is sad but what if all the ducklings survived???? Yes, it sometimes breaks my heart and when a fawn was killed by a bear in our back yard, I wept. But I also understand that nature knows best. When it comes to human beings, my thinking is different, as I see humankind as a higher, more creative, form of life that can forge survival under the most inhospitable circumstances and has a moral duty to preserve life, generally.
https://trailerpark.fandom.com/wiki/Donny_(secret_character)
Things he screams. Sorted chronologically Edit
BRENDA, YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP!! [Dear Santa Claus, Go Fuck Yourself]
WHAT KIND OF A COCKSUCKER (Indistinct) I ASK YOU, WHAT KIND?! COCKSUCKER! YOU ROTTEN PRICKS! [Dear Santa Claus, Go Fuck Yourself]
COCK FLIPPIN FUCKIN BASTARD! [Dear Santa Claus, Go Fuck Yourself]
WELL I DON’T KNOW, WOULD ANYONE HERE LIKE TO SUCK MY COCK?! [Dear Santa Claus, Go Fuck Yourself]
STOP FUCKIN FIRING! [Fuck Community College, Let’s Get Drunk and Eat Chicken Fingers]
WHAT IN THE FUCK?! [Catchphrase; said multiple times]
GET OFF THE STAGE YOU DRUNK BASTARD!! (Jim Lahey Is a Drunk Bastard]
FUCK OFF WITH THE GUN!! [A Dope Trailer is No Place for a Kitty, The Delusions of Officer Jim Lahey and Shit Blizzard]
I PAID FOR IT, FUCK! [If I Can’t Smoke and Swear I’m Fucked]
HOLY FUCK! [The Delusions of Officer Jim Lahey]
FUCK OFF! STOP FUCKIN’ FIRING!! [The Delusions of Officer Jim Lahey]
YOU FUCKIN' IDIOTS! [Never Cry Shitwolf]
FOR FUCKS SAKE RICKY WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOIN’ WITH THE SATELLITE?! I PAYED TEN FUCKING DOLLARS, I WANT MY FUCKING SATELLITE SIGNAL!! JESUS CHRIST! YOU FUCK OFF, FUCK YOURSELF! [A Man’s Gotta Eat]
TEN FUCKING DOLLARS A MONTH!! [A Man’s Gotta Eat]
GET YOUR HANDS OFF IT, I PAYED FOR A LADY NOT FUCKING COREY AND TREVOR!!! [Rub 'N Tiz'zug]
NO YOU POUND SAND, UP THE EYE OF YOUR COCK!!! CALM DOWN?!? YOU FUCKIN’ CALM DOWN, WHO’S RUNNIN’ THIS FUCKIN’ TRAILER PARK?! [The Green Bastard]
JESUS H CHRIST, I HAVE TO WORK BACK SHIFT TONIGHT!! [The Green Bastard]
FOR FUCKS SAKE, FUCK OFF WITH THE FIREWORKS!!! [Trailer Park Boys: The Movie]
JESUS CHRIST BOYS, EASE OFF WITH THE FUCKIN’ ERECTIONS!!!
WELL DON’T FUCKIN STOP ON MY ACCOUNT!! [Shit Blizzard]
WHO IN THE FUCK STOLE MY GOOD CLOTHES?!?!?! [Three Good Men Are Dead]
HAVE ANOTHER DRINK RAY!! [Three Good Men Are Dead]
FUCK OFF WITH THE COCKSUCKIN' NOISE! [The Fuckin V-Team]
HEY LOOK, IT’S PATRICK FUCKIN' SWAYZE’S BAR! [The Dirty Dancer]
WHO PISSED ON THE FUCKIN’ TOILET SEAT?! [Why in the Fuck Is My Trailer Pink?]
FUCK OFF WITH THE FUCKIN’ NOISE!! [A Dancer for Money]
JESUS CHRIST WHO THE FUCK DID YOU SELL IT TO?! [The Liqour Snurf]
OH YEAH WELL I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT WANNA SUCK MY COCK!! [You Want the Lot Fees, Suck Them Out of the Tip of My Cock]
NO FUCK YOU MUSCLES! [You Want the Lot Fees, Suck Them Out of the Tip of My Cock]
JESUS FUCKIN' CHRIST!! ARE YOU FUCKIN KIDDIN ME?! I JUST HAD THAT THING RE-GRAVELLED!! [Chlamydia]
OH YOU’RE FUCKIN RIGHT YOU WILL! AND YOU TELL FUCKIN’ RICKY I WANT THOSE FUCKIN CHICKEN FINGERS REPLACED HE TOOK LAST FRIDAY!! [Chlamydia]
I DON’T FUCKIN’ KNOW YET!! [Chlamydia]
Want to see someone cry?
Not really.
Find someone who "fosters" orphaned wildlife. Raccoon, squirrel, opossum, bird babies for example. Ask them why they do it.
To fullfill some emotional want.
Offer the argument that humans and wild animals would respectively be healthier species if we would maintain a safe long social distance from one another.
You could offer that argument, but it's not true in many cases since it very much depends on the animal; some animals, including at least half the ones you listed, actually do better when there are humans around. Many plants, too.
Very similar ideas are to make the human species healthier by sterilizing people with genetic problems and not giving medical aid to sick children.
Yes, that means some orphaned woodland babies will die. Alone. Motherless. Out in the cold dark brutal natural world.
So what else is new?
Now you made the rescuer cry. You big inhumane meanie.
You're the one making dopey arguments about how to make people cry.
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