"... when the Fresh-O-Matic intersected with the hoagie. I asked Neely, hoping that as the doyen of Knoxville pop-history he would have some information long forgotten by other Vols of his generation. 'I had this romantic idea,' he said, 'like something from a Ken Burns story. … I knew that before ever opening a restaurant, the Captains were hatmakers; therefore, they would have had steamers around the shop. I imagined that one day they just said, Hey! Let’s try these steamers on some sandwiches!' Before I even realized that a folklore nugget of this caliber should be regarded with some suspicion, Neely let me down gently: 'Unfortunately, that turned out not to be true.' However, he handed off a vague memory of having read something about the origin in a 1990s newspaper column, and that was enough to get me as close to the truth as I’ll ever get.... 'Up in Yankeeland they like those cold sandwiches — and some of them up there heat the sandwiches up in the pizza oven or rotisserie ovens,' Captain says from behind his counter. 'Hillbillies down here, they like that soft bread.'"
From
"'They Like That Soft Bread'/In the mountains of East Tennessee, folks have a particular fondness for a sandwich that’s spent a few seconds in a Fresh-O-Matic steamer. Knoxvillians know that soft-bread love in their bones, but nobody seems to know exactly where it comes from. Chelsey Mae Johnson aimed to find out" (The Bitter Southerner).
I found this lovely article via Audm (an app that plays audio versions of high-quality magazine articles). But I had to go to the Bitter Southerner webpage to get my first mental image of a Fresh-O-Matic. Lots of nice photographs at that link.
I also learned that the word "hoagie" began in 1936 (in Philadelphia):
“After witnessing a friend devour a large sandwich and thinking he was a hog to eat it all at once,” sandwich shop proprietor Al De Palma introduced a pile of cold cuts on a long Italian roll and called it a “hoggie.” Soon, “competitors in the Philadelphia area copied his sandwich and sold it under various names, including hoogie, hogie, and horgy. By 1950 … the sandwich became commonly known as the hoagie.”
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There is a better hoagie origin story which says the name comes from sandwiches made by Italian immigrants working at the Hog Island shipyard near Philadelphia.
Princeton was just slightly closer to Philly than to New York, so the sandwiches were called hoagies rather than subs. Alums will remember Hoagie Haven, but most memorable was the Student Hoagie Agency, whose employees would nightly walk among the dorms crying out "Hoagie Man Here!" You'd place your order by yelling out your dorm window, toss out the money, and the delivery man (usually--coeducation was still new) would pitch the hoagie through the open window like a football. Odd, that just no the northeast of Princeton the term "sub" takes over, and then the sandwich becomes a "wedge" in Westchester County, NY, and then a "grinder" once you cross into Connecticut and Massachusetts.
Iowa State Fair had the Guinea Grinder stand. Italian cut meats, cheese, sauce on a hoagie bun. Nobody had any clue it might be derogatory toward dago-americans.
We had PMP's from the Hot Truck
Being southern California, sun, surf and sand, we called/call them submarine sandwiches, or subs or Italian subs. I think it's because they came on a longer Italian loaf - really the size of two sandwiches - and that looked like a submarine.
As more east coasters showed up, hoagie became a word hesrd around, but the old Italian shops still call them subs.
...sandwich shop proprietor Al De Palma introduced a pile of cold cuts on a long Italian roll and called it a “hoggie.”
Maybe we should call piles of clothing on chair a "bernie."
Pizza Pit (which might still be in Madison) wraps their subs in foil, and then bakes them in the pizza ovens. They're Deliciously Delicious
The bread gets sof on the inside, but still crispily crunchy on the outside... The Most Best of All Worlds
Some fun writing...
I'd skip the sandwich. A pack of those Lance crackers, some of that cake...and do they have Cheerwine in Tennessee?
I grew up in Connecticut and we called them "Grinders" (even the cold ones). I grew up eating mine warmed up...I still eat them that way.!! It's a hard habit to break when I order them now in NJ...they have NO IDEA what a grinder is!!
MMMmmmmmmm. Hoagies.
"rehajm said...
...and do they have Cheerwine in Tennessee?"
I love Cheerwine. Regular and Diet. Meijers carries it here in Milwaukee. Great ice cold with a sammich.
We love Jersey Mikes Philly Cheese steak sub. We were stuck at a Hospital ER and found a Jersey Mikes close by. As for preferring soft bread, we do like soft Italian Bread for home made Egg Salad and Ham & cheese sandwiches.
Hated microwaves so got a Fresh-O-Matic over a dozen years ago.
Use it every day. Best food heater ever.
Oh, New Jerseyans already have to contend with three names for those sandwiches: Hoagies, heros and the NYC-centric sub. Keep that confusing grinder shit in New England where it belongs. In college in Connecticut, I was introduced to steamers, cheeseburgers steamed in makeshift steamers that look like tuna cans. So I guess some Yanks like that soft bread too.
I read that article a few weeks ago (I think it was on Instapundit), and really enjoyed it, too. However, I went to high school just outside of Knoxville in the 90’s, then attended UT Law in the mid-aughts, and have lived in this city now since 2011. That was absolutely the first I’d ever heard of this sandwich.
I loved that article because I, too, fondly remember Sam & Andy's and my family lived near the lunch spot she and her pal escaped to during high school. I missed those heated sandwiches in Baltimore until I discovered cheesesteaks. Nobody in Knoxville does a decent cheesesteak, probably because we have those wonderful steamed sandwiches.
Hey, Althouse, did you know the first mention in the (unlinkable!) OED of the Sub as a sandwich is from the 1940 Wilmington, Delaware phone book? I wish I had my grandparents' copy!
In NYC, I've always thought of subs as the cold ones, like an italian sub which will have salami/capicola and oil/vinegar, and heros were the hot ones like chicken parm hero. But if that distinction ever existed, it's gotten all mixed up and the terms are used interchangeably.
Maybe we should call piles of clothing on chair a "bernie."
3/6/20, 11:34 AM
Maybe we should just call piles "bernie."
UT is at the other end of the state, and though I boast a MLIS from them I never took a class on the campus; my son was there briefly (long enough for us to watch Notre Dame beat the Vols in Neyland), and I've visited a few times, but have no clear idea of the place beyond hills and masses of students.
I didn't know that a sandwich could be anything other than cheap baloney or PBJ on Wonder "bread," and didn't know pizza as anything other than the school cafeteria's ketchup on cardboard concoction, until I was a senior in high school.
Plenty of hamburgers etc, name brands of the 50s and 60s, but out in the burbs our cuisine was as standardized as the subdivisions were.
Except, we did have a great diversity of BBQ, more than I appreciated at the time.
Narr
Semi-Sweet Southerner
CHEERWINE??? Had a trucker used to come up through the Carolinas. He used to bring us cheerwine and pulled pork w/Carolina slaw from time to time. OMG whatta glorious lunch!
Nothing to do with Hoagland "Hoagy" Carmichael.
We called them 'grinders' in VT; upon moving to Boston I was promptly informed that they were 'subs'. Hoagies are what my NJ-based relatives always called them. I'm informed that they're known as 'cabinets' in Rhode Island.
A good Italian has both hot coppacola and mortadella with the salami, and hot peppers. A little ham wouldn't be turned down, either. And good sharp provolone.
Here in SF a deli near my house has the closest thing to it, and they toast it with their special sauce. I add avocado since I'm on the left coast now... snort.
Like most media, The Bitter Southerner is left leaning but despite that has managed to put out good stories accompanied by by good photographs. Well worth seeking out additional articles.
Iowa State Fair had the Guinea Grinder stand. Italian cut meats, cheese, sauce on a hoagie bun. Nobody had any clue it might be derogatory toward dago-americans.
Des Moines restaurant culture is heavily influenced by Sicilian immigrants. All the great Des Moines steak houses were Sicilian. The Latin King,(still there) Johnny and Kays, Johnnies Vets Club, Babes, just to name a few. It was a bygone era, But I suspect if you called any of them a Dago, they would have only asked if you wanted a second drink.
Lyssa 3/6/20, 12:45 PM
At some point (probably before you were a law student), Sam and Andy's left Cumberland Ave because rent got too high. They still have their shop out here in Farragut on Kingston Pike. A lot of UT alums and Vol fans like to stop on their way to Neyland Stadium on game days to taste the tradition because the sandwiches are still made the same way.
Anyone visiting Knoxville out west, that Sam and Andy's is on US 11-70 a block or two east of Farragut HS. Or a mile or less east of Campbell Station Road (which is exit 373 off I-40). For history buffs, the old house/inn built in the 1830s on the corner of Kingston Pike and Campbell Station Rd was used as a hospital during the Civil War battle between Longstreet and Burnside in Nov. 1863. The inn was popular with Andrew Jackson when he came through Knoxville. Now owned by the town of Farragut, construction has started recently to make the recently renovated inn and the whole corner property into a city park.
And the HS built in 1904 was named for Admiral Farragut because he was born close to the location of the high school.
I worked as a short order cook during high school nights and weekends. We had a Fresh-O-Matic steamer for our hamburger buns. It really did make a difference!
Great grinders seem to be more a matter of serendipity than geography or ethnicity. Best one I ever had was at Kung Fu Pizza in Friday Harbor. The ones I’ve had on the East Coast, meh. As with most food, you don’t really know great until you happen upon it. My wife makes the best grilled cheese sandwich in the world. How did that happen? It seems wildly improbable.
I live in a little town (called Friendsville, believe it or not) that is right outside of Knoxville. My husband and I usually order what we refer to as a Philly cheese steak sub at Sam and Andy's a couple of times a year. Ha, seems like we've been using the wrong word all these years.
When I lived in Johnson City about 45 years ago there was a nice little deli in town that steamed their sandwiches using a Fresh-O-Matic. I would usually get a ham and swiss on pumpernickel. It was delicious.
Sam and Andy's was still in business when my older daughter started at UT-K in the mid-90s. I have been by Parton's deli in Gatlinburg many times but I think finding a place to park can be an issue. Will try to go there again next time we are there.
When I was a co-op student with IBM on Peachtree St in mid-town Atlanta in 1970 there was a nice little diner nearby that steamed their sandwiches as well. Loved to eat there for lunch. Other than there and the deli in JC I have never had a steamed sandwich anywhere else. As many times as I have been to Knoxville I never knew they were such a big thing there.
Bitter Southerner is one of my favorite web sites. Interesting articles and good writing. It's worth stopping by there from time to time.
Delaware Valley boy here. (PHL area): A hoagie is NOT a grinder. We never heat them. That's a Boston thing. Hoagies are cold. No mayo-- oil & vinegar, oregano, salt, lettuce (shredded, preferably), multiple cold cuts, thinly sliced onions and tomatoes. Nice Italian roll with a crust on it.
They say the rolls are good because of the water. Attempts to recreate the rolls outside of the Delaware Valley fail.
It’s teeth like chalk from the Irish blood.
"Hoagie"or "Hoggee" in the mid-19th Century northeast referred to a long, narrow canal boat such as might be found on the Erie Canal and others. The name was also applied to the men who drove the mules or horses along the tow path. Many of the boats were build by the Hog Island Ship Company in Philadelphia, so the linguistic connection makes a lot of sense [FWIW, I think the current Phillie airport is on Hog Island].
In the 1950s Connecticut of my youth "hoagies" gradually come to be called "submarines" due to the base at Groton. In the late '50s a sandwich shop in Bridgeport featured sub sandwiches and called itself Sub-Way ... which turned out to be the very first store of that now well-known chain. My father, a metal-worker in Bridgeport, took us there often after a single visit to the new chain, McDonalds, convinced my parents that cheap burgers were lousy. A good sub at Sub-Way cost a buck, but one could be split in three for us kids, and in two for our parents.
As a result, the first -- and only -- few times I ever ate anything in a McDo was back in 1959. As a side note, we also enjoyed "grinders", but those were a HOT Italian variant of the standard hoagies/subs.
There was a Mexican place off of State Street (the one in Madison) in the 1970's that would steam burritos on a plate in a Fresh-O-Matic. Was it Taco Grande? I miss those steaming messes.
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